Leo & Donnie-Should they butt heads?

[victory_angel]

In the thread Season 2 Speculations, I gave a speculation as to Donnie and Leo butting heads in this incarnation. And a couple other people agreed.

In previous incarnation Donnie has been one the Turtles who holds the most unquestionable loyalty to Leonardo. However in recent incarnations such as the IDW comic, Donnie and Leo have been shown getting to quite a few spats.

And recent episodes in the 2012 series (mostly actions on Leo's part) have suggested there is some strain placed on their unspoken friendship and that has caused cracks to form. I am not the only person who has noticed this as well.

So if there are issues between them in the up coming season what do you guys think will cause them to happen?

One possibility is with the love triangle that will be forming between Donnie/April/And Casey. And we know for a fact that Donnie and Casey will be adversaries for April's affections. Casey's relationship with the other Turtle's is yet unknown but odds are a bit more on the friendly sided.

Leo is the only turtle who has experienced heartbreak or a something similar to that degree. So I can see him trying to reason with Donnie about his relationship with April so Donnie doesn't get hurt or does something that he regrets.

Donnie on the other hand takes it along the lines of "Give up, you have no chance with April."

[JH24]

I think I need to refresh my memory, but what kind of strains/cracks have developed between Leo and Donnie in the 2012 series? I can't really recall something at the moment. Do you mean regarding Timothy? Or something else?


I wouldn't mind a bit of conflict between Leo and Donnie, but I don't know if this season/story arc would be the best moment for it. Another source of conflict would crowd things more and more regarding plotlines IMO.


I guess I would say, it depends on where this season is going. But a lot would need to happen to not make this conflict feel forced.

[BubblyShell22]

I don't think they should butt heads the way Leo and Raph have done before, but I do think it would be neat to see them have some conflict. I also want to know where they have had some tensions in the first season since I never really noticed it either.

[Bossa Nova]

I say no. Don't get me wrong, I love how those two seem to really rub each other the wrong way in IDW, it's seriously one of my favorite versions of Don since he's not seen as some timid, doormat for everyone to walk all over, while still retaining his charming dorky qualities. But I seriously don't have enough faith in the way Nickelodeon handles relationships to be able to pull off a dispute between Leo and Don that will leave me liking *either* of them by the end of it.

[victory_angel]

Do you mean regarding Timothy? Or something else?


Timothy is on source of contention yes.

Since Leo does think over both Raph and Donnie's points of view before saying "Okay, we'll hear what he has to say. And then we'll get him out of the foot."

But after they heard what he was going to say. Leo says he wants to know more about what the Shredder was planning. And this look of betrayal seems to cross Donnie's face at moment.

I know Leo felt he was making a tactical decision, but he may as well have turned to Donnie and said "You're not important enough to have an opinion."

Another moment where there was some tension is in Episode 15-Alien Agenda. Of the four Turtles, Donnie was the most irritation out of the other about Leo hiding Karai's existence and his crush on her as well.

and when he states "I'm surprised you didn't trust us enough to tell us." Underlying it sounded like he was saying "I'm surprised you didn't trust me enough to talk about it."

[JTH]

Honestly, they should butt heads in all incarnations just based on themselves with what they know in battle.

Leo goes on instincts, Donnie goes on logic. These always lead to different outcomes and thus they should always have those quarrels amongst themselves.

It's also funny, at one of the Power Cons that Ciro took part in, he was asked about all the Star Trek references and brought up something that I had never thought of.

Leo/Donnie/Raph have the Kirk/Spock/McCoy partnership. (Mikey is comic relief like Scotty - minus the Scotch) They all have different takes, and they always butt heads on their takes and their opinions.

Ciro also brought up the Donnie comparison with Spock that while Donnie always thinks and goes by logic and always gets annoyed when his brothers don't have the slightest clue what he's talking about, yet he never knows what to do when his human side and human emotions kick in. (I'm sure you get what that's referring to.)

[Bossa Nova]

I guess that goes by your interpretation of Leo. I've never really seen him as an 'instinct' kinda guy. When it comes to barreling in head first without much thought, that's Raph and Mikey's area. Taking a step back, figuring things out and making a plan is more Leo and Don's course of action. Hell, as leader with four lives in his hands, I would HOPE Leo would realize he has to take the time to think of a strategy and think ahead before rushing stupidly into battle. I DO think when it comes to falling to a fight or flight instinct, maybe Leo triggers a bit faster than Don, but not to the point where it would cause a direct conflict with Don. If Don and Leo are going to have an argument, IDW got it right that it would boil down to personal views and beliefs, as Don is very much a pessimistic realist while Leo a more hopeful, idealist.

[Shark_Blade]

Yes IDW style.

Although we did see them squabbling a few times in the show.

Leo: Force field? Why didn't you tell me there's a force field?

Don: It's because I wanted our mission to fail. OBVIOUSLY I DIDN'T KNOW!

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, and the scene in "The Gauntlet" with the bomb was another one where Leo got upset with him.

[kelligrafie]

Yes, and the scene in "The Gauntlet" with the bomb was another one where Leo got upset with him.

Let's not forget when Donnie deliberately didn't tell Leo about the transporter forcefield in the final episode because he wanted them to fail the mission. ;)

Jth I liked the Star Trek thing, that's a cool bit of trivia. I guess it should've been more obvious considering Space Heroes is a Trek parody. I knew that the characters within Space Heroes are extreme characterisations of the turtles but I'd never have thought of the Kirk/Spock/McCoy/Scotty parallel with Leo/Donnie/Raph/Mikey.

I just gained a bit more appreciation for the effort involved with the show.

[victory_angel]

Let's not forget when Donnie deliberately didn't tell Leo about the transporter forcefield in the final episode because he wanted them to fail the mission. ;)

That was Donnie being sarcastic because he didn't know about the force field or suspected any possibility of such protections being placed on the portal. And instead of asking Donnie if he had known about it, Leo accusingly demanded to know why Donnie didn't tell him.

[Zachatello00]

Well, they're brothers... so there's that.

I remember one conflict where Leo and Don bite at each other in IDW.

It seemed... forced.

[JH24]

Timothy is on source of contention yes.

Since Leo does think over both Raph and Donnie's points of view before saying "Okay, we'll hear what he has to say. And then we'll get him out of the foot."

But after they heard what he was going to say. Leo says he wants to know more about what the Shredder was planning. And this look of betrayal seems to cross Donnie's face at moment.

I know Leo felt he was making a tactical decision, but he may as well have turned to Donnie and said "You're not important enough to have an opinion."

Another moment where there was some tension is in Episode 15-Alien Agenda. Of the four Turtles, Donnie was the most irritation out of the other about Leo hiding Karai's existence and his crush on her as well.

and when he states "I'm surprised you didn't trust us enough to tell us." Underlying it sounded like he was saying "I'm surprised you didn't trust me enough to talk about it."


I do understand what you mean, but (from your examples and others I read in the thread) I'm not sure how much weight we should give to them. They're also brothers, so any sign of friction can just be a part of their interactions/chemistry. Unless Donnie and Leo are mentally taking notes and remember everything that is being said I can't really imagine this would be enough reason for a future conflict.


It would be interesting though if something does go wrong. Donnie is IMHO the most "human" and kind-hearted of his brothers, if there's ever going to be a situation where Donnie wants to help or save someone while Leo knows there's no other way or sees things differently than I can see pent up frustration being released. In that case, your example with Timothy could come into play.

But any kind of conflict would require quite some work in order not to make it feel forced for the sake of drama.

[Bauer536]

I don't think they should really butt heads. You guys just came up with this thread after what IDW did. In my opinion, that was just an alternative to Leo vs. Raph, and I think it failed. If they ever argue, it needs to be about Timothy, April, certain strategies, or nerdy topics like "Who's a better Captain?":tlol: And if they do argue, they need to be specific of their evidence and not just insult one another.

But seriously - they are brothers, yet it doesn't have to be like what IDW did. In fact, I have a feeling Ciro and the guys don't want to base anything off of those comics.

But overall - NO.

[kelligrafie]

That was Donnie being sarcastic because he didn't know about the force field or suspected any possibility of such protections being placed on the portal. And instead of asking Donnie if he had known about it, Leo accusingly demanded to know why Donnie didn't tell him.

I know this...

[victory_angel]

Jth I liked the Star Trek thing, that's a cool bit of trivia. I guess it should've been more obvious considering Space Heroes is a Trek parody. I knew that the characters within Space Heroes are extreme characterisations of the turtles but I'd never have thought of the Kirk/Spock/McCoy/Scotty parallel with Leo/Donnie/Raph/Mikey.


Well there is a moment in Star Trek where Spock and Kirk fight each other to the death. The conflict was because a woman that was betrothed to Spock had chosen Kirk has her champion. This is more of an issue between Donnie and Casey however.

But a similar situation could work if the conflict wasn't over a woman (unless you have a huge dispute between Leo and Donnie about Karai I.E. Whether she is beyond saving or not) but rather who has the right to leadership of the team. Unlike Raph who felt he could have been a better leader in "New Girl in Town." Donnie would not directly challenge Leo's right to leadership unless he had absolute reason to call Leo's actions into question. And that could lead to a huge spat between the two of them.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I don't think they should really butt heads. You guys just came up with this thread after what IDW did. In my opinion, that was just an alternative to Leo vs. Raph, and I think it failed. If they ever argue, it needs to be about Timothy, April, certain strategies, or nerdy topics like "Who's a better Captain?":tlol: And if they do argue, they need to be specific of their evidence and not just insult one another.

But seriously - they are brothers, yet it doesn't have to be like what IDW did. In fact, I have a feeling Ciro and the guys don't want to base anything off of those comics.

But overall - NO.

I agree with this.

[RaphAndDonnie]

It's an interesting angle,one that hasn't really been explored yet except in IDW and I think that it could work, if done right.

[tylerdavies]

Leo is the only turtle who has experienced heartbreak or a something similar to that degree. So I can see him trying to reason with Donnie about his relationship with April so Donnie doesn't get hurt or does something that he regrets.

Donnie on the other hand takes it along the lines of "Give up, you have no chance with April."

I can see that happening. It would be cool for the two turtles since they have been the only ones who have had affections for April and Karai respectively.

In terms of butting heads, the only way I can see that happening is if they develop Donnie's 'leader traits' this season and him and Leo but heads in terms of leadership. With Casey and Timothy we know that Donnie is going to have a lot of focus this season - which could allow him to develop as a leader. That would be pretty cool since in the other incarnations he has proved that he could be a leader of the turtles. They would then butt heads when Leo makes a decision that Donnie doesn't agree with or Donnie might make decisions for the team without Leo's consent.

[Bauer536]

I can see that happening. It would be cool for the two turtles since they have been the only ones who have had affections for April and Karai respectively.

In terms of butting heads, the only way I can see that happening is if they develop Donnie's 'leader traits' this season and him and Leo but heads in terms of leadership. With Casey and Timothy we know that Donnie is going to have a lot of focus this season - which could allow him to develop as a leader. That would be pretty cool since in the other incarnations he has proved that he could be a leader of the turtles. They would then butt heads when Leo makes a decision that Donnie doesn't agree with or Donnie might make decisions for the team without Leo's consent.

You make it sound like you want Donnie to be leader more than Leo. Maybe if Don proves himself, Leo will appoint him as second-in-command so Don can learn to be an effective leader. Also, I'd like to see Raph also butt heads with Don over leadership. Then it will show it's not the person that bothers him, but it's that he doesn't have the position.

[BabyTurtles]

am I the only one getting annoyed that Donnie is getting all the attention in the show?? :tanime:

no? just me?.....okay.

[victory_angel]

You make it sound like you want Donnie to be leader more than Leo. Maybe if Don proves himself, Leo will appoint him as second-in-command so Don can learn to be an effective leader. Also, I'd like to see Raph also butt heads with Don over leadership. Then it will show it's not the person that bothers him, but it's that he doesn't have the position.

Well no. We have seen glimpses of what Donnie could be like as a leader in some episode, and he could be just as good if not better then Leo in some cases. But Donnie's position to the team is is not just the brains, it has been implied to be second in command in other incarnations. We've seen hints of this role when Donnie and Leo are discussing attack plans in the Finally and also when Leo was asking Donnie for a Plan B. And hopefully that role is something that will start to be explored more in this upcoming season.

When Raph took the Leadership role in NGiT it was more of an ego trip to prove he could be a better leader then Leo. However he proved that he wasn't ready for the position and all it's responsibility. It felt like he believed that being a leader meant that you got your way all the time, and learned the hard way that you were responsible for your team. And if you make a mistake someone could get hurt or killed as a result.

Donnie on the other hand seems to understand there is a responsibility to those that follow you. Which is why the moments he is shown questioning Leo's orders it was because he is verifying it's accuracy and what areas could jeopardize the safety of the team.


The only reason Donnie would want to actually step into a leadership role himself is if Leo isn't able to lead, or if he had an absolute refutable reason to call Leo into question as a leader.

[pingclang]

am I the only one getting annoyed that Donnie is getting all the attention in the show?? :tanime:

no? just me?.....okay.

Actually, I agree. He's probably the most fleshed out character. We've seen and learned more about him than the others. I really want to see some this much attention given to the others, maybe an episode each season to focus on the individual turtle? Show us more of why Raph gets mad, show us Leo failing and having to overcome and poor Mikey learning something. You're not alone.

As for the topic, yeah, I want a lot of headbutting. Someone with that amount of intelligence isnt going to just blindly follow someone. If they think it's stupid, they'll let you know what's wrong with it. Trust me, I live in a college town and have a lot of friends who consider themselves geniuses and do that sort of thing all the time. They should butt heads, I wanna see the brothers, not just Leo and Don, fighting more. Brothers don't get along as well as the Turtles do, they argue, fight and make up. I want more of that. Sorry for the long responses.

[BabyTurtles]

Actually, I agree. He's probably the most fleshed out character. We've seen and learned more about him than the others. I really want to see some this much attention given to the others, maybe an episode each season to focus on the individual turtle? Show us more of why Raph gets mad, show us Leo failing and having to overcome and poor Mikey learning something. You're not alone.


XD just wanted to make sure....he got the most episodes last season....and he's getting this Casey subplot...which should be given to Raph

IDK.......it's mildly bothering me.

(poor Mikey still needs his lesson)

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yeah, I'm on the fence about the head-butting. It worked in IDW because they have different beliefs regarding the "logic" or evidence of their past lives, and that's a point of contention between them. Here, it would have to be something equally important and divisive, like April/Karai, or if Leo makes a decision Don seriously disagrees with for good reason. Maybe Timothy would come into play.

Personally, I'd much rather see some time devoted to fleshing out Mikey and Raph a bit more, especially the youngest, since he seems to get so little attention in this one other than as comic relief- a fact which irks me greatly. I like his sense of humor in Nick, but they've made him seem way too dumb, and I'd like to see him mature a bit and start to grow as a character- and that includes intellectually.

[BabyTurtles]

Yeah, I'm on the fence about the head-butting. It worked in IDW because they have different beliefs regarding the "logic" or evidence of their past lives, and that's a point of contention between them. Here, it would have to be something equally important and divisive, like April/Karai, or if Leo makes a decision Don seriously disagrees with for good reason. Maybe Timothy would come into play.

Personally, I'd much rather see some time devoted to fleshing out Mikey and Raph a bit more, especially the youngest, since he seems to get so little attention in this one other than as comic relief- a fact which irks me greatly. I like his sense of humor in Nick, but they've made him seem way too dumb, and I'd like to see him mature a bit and start to grow as a character- and that includes intellectually.

they said they made Mikey youngest on purpose so he would have room to grow and develop, so I'm sure as the episodes go on Mikey will get wiser in his own way. (but I agree more time for Mikey and Raph so they CAN develop! XD)

[victory_angel]

Leo still hasn't informed his brothers about who Karai really is, which I don't think is the right move.

The last time he hid Karai's existence from his brothers the results were

In Raph's case disappointment and somewhat smug satisfaction. He knew about Karai and his brothers infatuation with her. And had warned him that Karai was trouble with a capital 'T'

Mikey was confused as to why his older brother could trust her.

Donnie on the other hand was appalled that Leo did not trust any of them to inform them about this matter to begin with and that has created a small level of tension between them.

When Leo does confess that Karai is their "Sister", I can see Donnie being very upset that Leo didn't inform them of this. Particularly since he was down right ready to kill Karai in Target: April O'Neil.

That and there were plenty of moments where Donnie had been needing Leo and Raph to be his big brothers particularly after Mutagen Man Unleashed. And the others are of in their own world as if he doesn't matter.

[Rooish]

No. Leo should have more respect for Donnie instead of butting heads. Leo is increasingly a dismissive, alpha male jerk.

Agreed, also, that Don is getting a bit too much screen time. I kind of hate Raph but I think he needs a bit more focus.

[SpiderFly]

Leo and Donnie clashing sounds entertaining but their relationship is like the only order the team really has. Yeah, Donnie is capable of leading but to have to lead and be in charge of the tech/science stuff/arsenal is a lot to have on one's plate. Even Donnie would crack.

Raph is too emotional to lead and Mikey just can't concentrate. Leo is kind of the buffer that lets Donnie do his own thing.

As far as the Karai thing goes. . .I think Leo withholding the info on Karai is going to put a crack in that foundation, but it's also not Leo's place to say. Splinter's not ready to face the truth and who knows how tactfully the guys would handle it if they did know. They could just end up making things worse.

But also, Donnie is the only other turtle to have a crush on a girl. Leo could appeal his case to Donnie based on how far he's gone for April's sake. Donnie could be the only other turtle to really understand, though he may be dejected at first.

[Davetello]

Leo and Donnie clashing sounds entertaining but their relationship is like the only order the team really has. Yeah, Donnie is capable of leading but to have to lead and be in charge of the tech/science stuff/arsenal is a lot to have on one's plate. Even Donnie would crack.

Raph is too emotional to lead and Mikey just can't concentrate. Leo is kind of the buffer that lets Donnie do his own thing.

As far as the Karai thing goes. . .I think Leo withholding the info on Karai is going to put a crack in that foundation, but it's also not Leo's place to say. Splinter's not ready to face the truth and who knows how tactfully the guys would handle it if they did know. They could just end up making things worse.

But also, Donnie is the only other turtle to have a crush on a girl. Leo could appeal his case to Donnie based on how far he's gone for April's sake. Donnie could be the only other turtle to really understand, though he may be dejected at first.

Good post.

Leonardo and Donatello are the level-headed boys. They're the very foundation of the team in that respect and a rift between the two could be very destabilising for the entire dynamic and undermine the team's bigger goals - perhaps it's interesting thematically as a concept in isolation, but perhaps a bit too much to grapple with in terms of the coherency of the bigger picture. But then these sort of subplots can always contribute to a more fulfilling whole and open new avenues, so it might be interesting.

It is something that hasn't really been explored too much in any of the three series. The 1987 show wasn't really about character development, and I can't remember any major prolonged issues between these two in the 4Kids series - unless my memory has escaped me.

[victory_angel]

Good post.

Leonardo and Donatello are the level-headed boys. They're the very foundation of the team in that respect and a rift between the two could be very destabilising for the entire dynamic and undermine the team's bigger goals - perhaps it's interesting thematically as a concept in isolation, but perhaps a bit too much to grapple with in terms of the coherency of the bigger picture. But then these sort of subplots can always contribute to a more fulfilling whole and open new avenues, so it might be interesting.

It is something that hasn't really been explored too much in any of the three series. The 1987 show wasn't really about character development, and I can't remember any major prolonged issues between these two in the 4Kids series - unless my memory has escaped me.

Normally Leo and Donnie are on good terms. There are some moments in the OT version where Leo does cause some problems such as telling Donatello's that his technical gimmickry is no substitute for ninja skill. Or standing up for him by telling Michelangelo and Raphael that Donatello does more then his share. And then turning around and telling Donatello to "Fix my tooth brush and we'll call it even."

In the 2003 version, there was very little problem between them. At most Leo did view Donny as a confidant in some ways and the same was true for Donnie as well. Leo also had a protective streak when it came to Donny, and he has openly admitted he did feel lost without Donatello there. Also Leo and the other Turtles are willing to help with the technical stuff where ever they can. Such as the first Battle shell being a group project.

In the 2012 incarnation Leo has gotten more of an appreciation for Donnie's technical now how. But he is also very dependent on it as well and with all the current stuff going on in season two, it's clear Donnie has a lot more on his plate then his brothers even realize.

Donnie is struggling with creating retromutagen-to cure April's father
on an emotional roller coaster due to April's absence and having to literally put the Pulverizer on ice.
And struggling with April's new friendship with Casey.
And now that 2nd Mutations are possible that makes it all the more imperative that a way to create retromutagen be found.

(April's absence is no longer a stress factor anymore fortunately)

All of which he is dealing with alone and this is on top of having to search the city for those mutagen canisters and capturing/containing mutations.

And we've seen all this starting to have its toll on the young genius.

I don't see an absolute out and out fight between Leo and Donnie. Donnie won't challenge Leo for leadership of the team...not unless he has indisputable evidence that Leonardo should not be leader. Because if he's wrong then that could put a lot strain on the trust he has with his family.

But Donnie can lash out in other ways, such as showing uncharacteristic aggression during training, locking himself in the lab, running way from home. Other problems that could arise is Donnie becomes sick from overworking himself. Or worse yet is put in a situation where he is nearly lost forever.

Leo in this incarnation is not really likely to notice things such as what's going on with Donnie before they become more of a problem. Unfortunately in that case it could be too late.

[SpiderFly]

In the 2012 incarnation Leo has gotten more of an appreciation for Donnie's technical now how. But he is also very dependent on it as well and with all the current stuff going on in season two, it's clear Donnie has a lot more on his plate then his brothers even realize. . .

. . .Leo in this incarnation is not really likely to notice things such as what's going on with Donnie before they become more of a problem. Unfortunately in that case it could be too late.

This is what I'm worried about. It's already been established that in Leo's eagerness to become a leader, he wants to treat his brothers like cookie cutter soldiers rather than individuals. And a part of being a good leader is to know when to push someone, and how far.

[JTH]

Normally Leo and Donnie are on good terms. There are some moments in the OT version where Leo does cause some problems such as telling Donatello's that his technical gimmickry is no substitute for ninja skill. Or standing up for him by telling Michelangelo and Raphael that Donatello does more then his share. And then turning around and telling Donatello to "Fix my tooth brush and we'll call it even."

In the 2003 version, there was very little problem between them. At most Leo did view Donny as a confidant in some ways and the same was true for Donnie as well. Leo also had a protective streak when it came to Donny, and he has openly admitted he did feel lost without Donatello there. Also Leo and the other Turtles are willing to help with the technical stuff where ever they can. Such as the first Battle shell being a group project.

In the 2012 incarnation Leo has gotten more of an appreciation for Donnie's technical now how. But he is also very dependent on it as well and with all the current stuff going on in season two, it's clear Donnie has a lot more on his plate then his brothers even realize.

Donnie is struggling with creating retromutagen-to cure April's father
on an emotional roller coaster due to April's absence and having to literally put the Pulverizer on ice.
And struggling with April's new friendship with Casey.
And now that 2nd Mutations are possible that makes it all the more imperative that a way to create retromutagen be found.

(April's absence is no longer a stress factor anymore fortunately)

All of which he is dealing with alone and this is on top of having to search the city for those mutagen canisters and capturing/containing mutations.

And we've seen all this starting to have its toll on the young genius.

I don't see an absolute out and out fight between Leo and Donnie. Donnie won't challenge Leo for leadership of the team...not unless he has indisputable evidence that Leonardo should not be leader. Because if he's wrong then that could put a lot strain on the trust he has with his family.

But Donnie can lash out in other ways, such as showing uncharacteristic aggression during training, locking himself in the lab, running way from home. Other problems that could arise is Donnie becomes sick from overworking himself. Or worse yet is put in a situation where he is nearly lost forever.

Leo in this incarnation is not really likely to notice things such as what's going on with Donnie before they become more of a problem. Unfortunately in that case it could be too late.
I agree with everything except the bolded part.

In a way, April being back could be worse.

Knowing that her being there possibly watching him continuously fail to find a cure could no doubt be nerve-wrecking for both of them.

[victory_angel]

I agree with everything except the bolded part.

In a way, April being back could be worse.

Knowing that her being there possibly watching him continuously fail to find a cure could no doubt be nerve-wrecking for both of them.

I can see where your getting at. He wants to find a cure for her father because he feels he owes her that. But finding a cure is like doing the impossible, so April being around will be a stress because he's trying to do all this for her and he has nothing to show for it except a number of rejected attempts.

And of course there is her budding friendship with Casey, which will stress him out further once he and Casey become acquainted. But for now, since April is back in the Turtles's lives her absence is not putting any strain on him.

As I pointed out, a point of contention between Leo and Donnie would be Leo trying to reason with his brother that maybe he shouldn't be so focused on trying to get get April to like him. And his reasons for it is so Donnie won't get hurt or does something he will end up regretting. But Donnie could take it the wrong way and think Leo is saying "Give up, you have no chance with April."

[victory_angel]

Anyone get the impression that Donnie and Leo's are getting built up for something?

[BabyTurtles]

Anyone get the impression that Donnie and Leo's are getting built up for something?

what do you mean? their relationship? :-?

[DarkLightDragon]

Not really. Since any conflict they had with the recent episode ceased with Leo admitting he should've trusted him and shares his remorse for Metalhead's sacrifice.

[Cure]

Anyone get the impression that Donnie and Leo's are getting built up for something?

No. You do a lot of crazy projecting.

[Electric]

today they did butt heads. i liked it. it seemed natural that the leader is worried about an ai that can be turned on them, while the creator is defensive and believes in his invention.

as far as something built up? not so much. i think any tension was resolved at the end, not to say they wont butt heads again

[shuriken]

Not like in IDW no. But everyone should butt heads with their siblings at least once. 'sjust how life is for teens, hell I had brawls with my older sister over the most mundane crap. It's only natural that the TMNT but heads every once in a while.

[victory_angel]

Well remember Leo still not informed his brothers that Karai is their sister. And Donnie was the only turtle who was irritated with Leo for hiding her existence from them. Raph and April were disappointed because they did know about Karai and Leo's infatuation with her, while Mikey was more surprised Leo would trust someone from the Foot Clan in general.

And I wouldn't put it past Nick to have that friendship be built up only to come crashing down during the big reveal.

[Warhorse]

You know, this could be a good way to mix up the team a bit. Having Leo and Donnie disagreeing about something to the point that they fall back to confide in the brothers they tend to not normally confide in. Leo could hang out with Mikey more, and Donnie could hang out with Raph more. This doesn't have to go on for like an entire season, just maybe 2 or 3 episodes the most.

[victory_angel]

You know, this could be a good way to mix up the team a bit. Having Leo and Donnie disagreeing about something to the point that they fall back to confide in the brothers they tend to not normally confide in. Leo could hang out with Mikey more, and Donnie could hang out with Raph more. This doesn't have to go on for like an entire season, just maybe 2 or 3 episodes the most.

When I initially thought of this as a concept I had taken note that while there is a generally close relationship between Leo and Donnie as there had been in previous incarnations. However the two of them are testier then they have been in previous incarnations.

Your concept of Donnie and Leo disagreeing with each other would could lead into development between how they act with the Turtle that is their polar opposite. And I can definitely see that happening.

However something else that could happen is that Leo and Donnie could be in disagreement over something. Then one of them could be in a situation where they need the others help, but the attitude of the other is pretty much like that scene in mousers attack where Leo and Raph are being chased down by Mousers. So they call Donnie and Mikey to ask for their help, but they are still too proud to admit they need their younger brothers help.

However this results in this case is that something happens to one of them and that one is nearly lost forever (might be a good way to introduce a SaiNW plot line) And the other feels a sense of regret because of it.

[LivingMutagen]

No, they should Beavis (yay for bad jokes)

[LeotheLateBloomer]

To me, Donnie has always been a pacifist. While he will come to disagreements with the others and can be irritable in this version, seeing him argue a lot to me just doesn't seem like Donatello. Even with Mikey, who he probably disagrees with the most, he never gets into any type of heated argument. Why exactly would you want to see Don butt heads with Leo? I think that is more of Raph's type of role considering he's the one who wants Leo's leadership.

[Anton Chigurh]

To me, Donnie has always been a pacifist. While he will come to disagreements with the others and can be irritable in this version, seeing him argue a lot to me just doesn't seem like Donatello. Even with Mikey, who he probably disagrees with the most, he never gets into any type of heated argument. Why exactly would you want to see Don butt heads with Leo? I think that is more of Raph's type of role considering he's the one who wants Leo's leadership.

Agree, to me it would take somthing for the great dynamic of Leo and Raph's relationship. Plus Donnie is to smart to argue with any of the other brothers.:tcool:

[Warhorse]

To me, Donnie has always been a pacifist. While he will come to disagreements with the others and can be irritable in this version, seeing him argue a lot to me just doesn't seem like Donatello. Even with Mikey, who he probably disagrees with the most, he never gets into any type of heated argument. Why exactly would you want to see Don butt heads with Leo? I think that is more of Raph's type of role considering he's the one who wants Leo's leadership.

Well, let's not act like spats between Leo and Donnie haven't happened before, but it's usually been cleared up by the end of the episode. And the Raph and Leo conflicts, are always expected, I'd like to see the writers mix things up a bit and do things that are unexpected. Right now, they seem to be following very similar formulas, they just change up the Turtles (even in the first episode, it was just like the first episode in 2k3, they boys are spatting and one comes out on top and gets too cocky and Splinter puts him in his place, 2k3 had it Leo and 2012 had it Raph, the episode that has Raph meeting Casey Jones, same situation (although I think the 2k3 version was more hard core) 2k3 Raph attacked Mikey, and 2012, he attacked Leo.

We've been seeing the same thing for quite some time, let's see some changes. Let the writers get a little unpredictable, like I said, it won't be too off the beaten path to have Donnie loose his cool a little and get a little snarky with Leo.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

You don't want to change something just for the sake of change. There needs to be a reason for Donnie to clash with Leo. And why specifically Don? Why does he need to be the one to argue with Leo? I would think Mikey would be the one to argue with his brothers considering how he is always treated.

[victory_angel]

There could be reasons. Such as for example the others have taken advantage of Donnie and pressured him when he isn't working fast enough for their tastes. So maybe he is attempting to make retromutagen, but something like the TV breaks in the lair so Donnie is expected to drop whatever he's doing to deal with it.

However this time Donnie is saying that what he's doing holds more importance. And that gets Leo on his case about how he's been obsessing about creating this "Retromutagen" for months now and he's had no success in making it. So he's going to have to accept that it can't be done.

Donnie tries to defend it and say its only impossible because no one has truly tried to create a cure for mutations before. And just because he hasn't had success yet, he still is determined to find a way to cure April's father.

And this is where Leo lights into Donnie about how he needs to get over April, because while they value her as a friend and ally. And he understands Donnie's determination to restore Dr. O'Neil's humanity. However she is also a distraction and he's getting way to obsessive over her. So he needs to accept that perhaps she doesn't want him in the way he wants her to want him.

[Warhorse]

You don't want to change something just for the sake of change. There needs to be a reason for Donnie to clash with Leo. And why specifically Don? Why does he need to be the one to argue with Leo? I would think Mikey would be the one to argue with his brothers considering how he is always treated.

Mikey has argued, but it's really not his schtick in this show. Donnie has been shown in this show to have a short fuse as well, and it would be funny to see him butt heads with Leo.

[victory_angel]

In one of the convention panels last year the producers of the show said they were intending to look into Donnie's effectiveness as a leader. Now while we had have seen hints of Donnie becoming a second in command in his own right, the only time he has been officially a team leader was in Wormquake when he was teamed up with April and Casey.

After this recent episode I can certainly see them have a reason for the show to play into Donnie as a leader.

1. Because there is allusion to the Turtles being forced to leave the City. It's typically around Northampton arc where Donnie takes over as team leader because Leo is usually incapacitated or mopey, and they need someone with a calm head to lead the team.

2. With the recent episodes, Leo has become really impulsive in trying to reunite Karai and Splinter.


I can certainly see him trying to encourage his brothers in striking out at the Shredder while the iron was still hot and making him pay for what he has done. And this time it's Donnie who stands up and maturely says "No! Look at what we've lost already. If we go after Shredder in this state, any of us could be seriously hurt or worse. Is that what you want?!"

[HotNunchuckFury]

I've always seen Donatello as a calm, level-headed and rational guy (I prefer him in the 2k3 series the best), so this idea didn't initially appeal to me. However, in the IDW comics it works really well. I had my doubts at first, because I considered it as being out of character for Donnie, and I was also worried about where that would leave Raph, as we all know it tends to be him who always challenges Leo, but it works just fine. Leo's spiritual beliefs versus Donnie's scientific logic - it makes sense they argue considering they're always looking at things from completely different viewpoints. I also think it works well because Raph was initially missing, so Leo had already been leading his other brothers for a year or so before Raph joined the group, making him much less likely to begrudge Leo's lead. As for the Nick series I'm not sure if it would work as well. Yes they've given Donnie a shorter fuse and put him under a lot of pressure, but Leo's leadership already gets questioned enough by Raph, and I think the way all four interact with each other needs to be considered when altering the family dynamics.

[ssjup81]

I personally would love to see Leo and Donnie clash about something. I just feel it would be interesting. I wouldn't want it on the level of Leo and Raph, but something. It would be nice to see how Raph and Mikey would react to something like that since it would be so out of the ordinary, or how the conflict will be resolved and the lesson learned.

Someone mentioned the OT episode, Donatello's Duplicate. He was overworked and under appreciated. He thought Leo had his back, like usual, but he ended up asking Donatello to fix his toothbrush which annoyed Donny. Later in the ep, when Donny's clone was invading the city with rats, Leo stayed on Donny's case over how if he'd fixed the things like they'd asked none of what had happened would've happened. Guilt tripping him. Too bad Donny didn't snap on him...but the guilt tripping worked.

So yeah, I would like to see some actual conflict between these two. I could see Nick Donnie snapping, though mildly, at some point given his short fuse.

[Shark_Blade]

Why "should" they butt heads? That's already been done in IDW.

They're so adorable together. :tlove:

http://i.imgur.com/fzkJ6sB.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/mUZQxPB.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vA3rUJ0.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bF2TxDh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/SKLLqSp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/NnVt7Fq.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ln2scnD.png

http://i.imgur.com/nwmWInQ.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/nncdvKf.jpg

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Not to mention that both of them are the most level-headed of the group.

[ssjup81]

Not to mention that both of them are the most level-headed of the group.That's another reason why I find those two possibly having a real conflict would be interesting to see. That's also why Donatello is usually "second". He and Leo are the most level-headed, hence why he's the unofficial second-in-command. Mikey and Raph are too impatient for that role.

I also now wonder if that's why they have the bandanna colors. Leo and Donnie have dark, serene colors. Raph and Mikey have bright, fiery ones. To match their personalities I guess.

I also noticed, recently, with the Nick designs, how their wraps are different. Leo and Donnie' are white/off-white whereas Raph and Mikey are shades of brown.

[IndigoErth]

Should they... sure. But I can't say I personally see it lasting very long. Ten min later they're prob both over it for the most part, unlike the brooder in red.

[victory_angel]

I personally would love to see Leo and Donnie clash about something. I just feel it would be interesting. I wouldn't want it on the level of Leo and Raph, but something. It would be nice to see how Raph and Mikey would react to something like that since it would be so out of the ordinary, or how the conflict will be resolved and the lesson learned.

Someone mentioned the OT episode, Donatello's Duplicate. He was overworked and under appreciated. He thought Leo had his back, like usual, but he ended up asking Donatello to fix his toothbrush which annoyed Donny. Later in the ep, when Donny's clone was invading the city with rats, Leo stayed on Donny's case over how if he'd fixed the things like they'd asked none of what had happened would've happened. Guilt tripping him. Too bad Donny didn't snap on him...but the guilt tripping worked.

So yeah, I would like to see some actual conflict between these two. I could see Nick Donnie snapping, though mildly, at some point given his short fuse.

And that's exactly the point. In the OT Leo and Donnie would normally have each others backs. They worked well together, and they fought well along side one another. And Splinter would often compliment them on how dedicated they are to training.

But occasionally they would have moments where they would clash, because their view points differ. Donatello's duplicate is one such moment. But another good moment is Night of the Dark Turtle where all the Turtles are teasing Donatello about the fact his techno-know-how is holding him back. And Leonardo chides him by saying 'Techno gimmickry is no substitute for Ninja skill.' To which Donatello shoot's back, "I could take out the Shredder on my own if I wanted to."

And to prove it he attacks the Shredder on his own and gets electrocuted. Then when the wakes up as the Dark Turtle the first thing he does is grabs Leo and growls "Why did you stop me?!"


The 2k3 Donatello and Leonardo were close enough to be considered extensions of the same person. Heck in Good Gene's, Leo even tells Splinter he's at a loss for what to do because the person he would normally look to for answers to the problem is the problem.


In this version Leo and Donnie have the same relationship they have in the OT, however it's testier. And trust seems to be a big issue with these two as it is brought up quite a bit.

For example in Alien Agenda, Donnie states "I can't believe you didn't trust us enough to tell us." which can be translated as "I can't believe you didn't trust *me* enough to come to me about this."

In Pulverizer Donnie hints that he trusts Leo more then Raph or Mikey because as he says "Leonardo was the one least likely to hit something just for the fun of it."

In enemy of my enemy after Leo has taken out the Kraang Ship and Karai has jumped into the water to rescue the Shredder. There is a moment where Leo turns and sees his brothers standing and waiting for him. Donnie seems to regard Leo with an unreadable expression before leading everyone away.

http://screencapped.net/tv/tmnt/albums/userpics/10002/Teenage_Mutant_Ninja_Turtles_2012_S01E20_Enemy_of_ My_Enemy_720p_WEB-DL_AAC2_0_H_264-YFN_1298.jpg

And then moments later Donnie does attempt to at least comfort Leo.

http://screencapped.net/tv/tmnt/albums/userpics/10002/Teenage_Mutant_Ninja_Turtles_2012_S01E20_Enemy_of_ My_Enemy_720p_WEB-DL_AAC2_0_H_264-YFN_1322.jpg

And Metalhead rewired where Leo and Donnie were at odds with each other about Metalhead. And it ended with Leo saying "You were right Donnie, I should have trusted you."

[victory_angel]

That's another reason why I find those two possibly having a real conflict would be interesting to see. That's also why Donatello is usually "second". He and Leo are the most level-headed, hence why he's the unofficial second-in-command. Mikey and Raph are too impatient for that role.


Often the second in command is not just an auxiliary leader. It is also their job to (temporarily) unseat the leader if he feels the Leader is acting with reckless disregard for the safety of the team.

[ssjup81]

I completely agree with you. The Dark Turtle, one of my all-time favorite OT episodes was definitely interesting and how Donnie can be riled up by Leo or the others or pushed to that level.

I really want some kind of conflict between them, even if it's mild. Enough for one of them to feel guilt over the rift.

[victory_angel]

Another probability for conflict is Leo pressuring Donnie about creating the retromutagen and accidentally says that they had wasted their last batch on Mr. O'Neil.

[Mona_Lisa]

Yes IDW style.

Although we did see them squabbling a few times in the show.

Leo: Force field? Why didn't you tell me there's a force field?

Don: It's because I wanted our mission to fail. OBVIOUSLY I DIDN'T KNOW!

That was funny!!! Lol, I am a fan of Donnie's sarcasm...

You make it sound like you want Donnie to be leader more than Leo. Maybe if Don proves himself, Leo will appoint him as second-in-command so Don can learn to be an effective leader. Also, I'd like to see Raph also butt heads with Don over leadership. Then it will show it's not the person that bothers him, but it's that he doesn't have the position.

Why the Raph hate? But yeah, Raph wouldn't like that.

am I the only one getting annoyed that Donnie is getting all the attention in the show?? :tanime:

no? just me?.....okay.

O no, The Leo Donnie focus is getting old... And I love Donnie!
Show me Mikey get his feelings hurt and be sad!!!!
Show the side of Raph that loves and cares for his brothers!!! There is so much more to Raph than just his Hot headed nature!!!!

Actually, I agree. He's probably the most fleshed out character. We've seen and learned more about him than the others. I really want to see some this much attention given to the others, maybe an episode each season to focus on the individual turtle? Show us more of why Raph gets mad, show us Leo failing and having to overcome and poor Mikey learning something. You're not alone.

As for the topic, yeah, I want a lot of headbutting. Someone with that amount of intelligence isnt going to just blindly follow someone. If they think it's stupid, they'll let you know what's wrong with it. Trust me, I live in a college town and have a lot of friends who consider themselves geniuses and do that sort of thing all the time. They should butt heads, I wanna see the brothers, not just Leo and Don, fighting more. Brothers don't get along as well as the Turtles do, they argue, fight and make up. I want more of that. Sorry for the long responses.

^^^Agree with this!



Personally, I'd much rather see some time devoted to fleshing out Mikey and Raph a bit more, especially the youngest, since he seems to get so little attention in this one other than as comic relief- a fact which irks me greatly. I like his sense of humor in Nick, but they've made him seem way too dumb, and I'd like to see him mature a bit and start to grow as a character- and that includes intellectually.

Yeah, I like Mikey as the silly little brother, But no one is happy and upbeat all the time!!!! Mikey needs fleshed out!!!
I want to see him get his feelings hurt or be sad, I want to see how his brothers react!

No. Leo should have more respect for Donnie instead of butting heads. Leo is increasingly a dismissive, alpha male jerk.

Agreed, also, that Don is getting a bit too much screen time. I kind of hate Raph but I think he needs a bit more focus.
Hate Raph:cry: Wow!
In some incarnations I though Leo was an "alpha male jerk" but not this one...



We've been seeing the same thing for quite some time, let's see some changes. Let the writers get a little unpredictable, like I said, it won't be too off the beaten path to have Donnie loose his cool a little and get a little snarky with Leo.
Yeah, because The new Donnie IS snarky at times! but I like:lol:

I personally would love to see Leo and Donnie clash about something. I just feel it would be interesting. I wouldn't want it on the level of Leo and Raph, but something. It would be nice to see how Raph and Mikey would react to something like that since it would be so out of the ordinary, or how the conflict will be resolved and the lesson learned.


It would make my day if this plot came to pass and Raph would flip out trying to somehow "fix" things between his brothers in his own Raph way (that would probably mean he would accidently make things worse). But there would be heart there!!!

[Midnight Mutant]

I think yes. It seems they are kind of leading up to it, especially when it comes to Karai. Even if he wasn't as vocal about it as Raph, his neutrality was pretty much shattered with the face expressions he would make and over all attitude.

It would be interesting, but I wouldn't want it to be as powerful or petty as Raph's issues with Leo, and I wouldn't want it to be a permanent state of relationship for them. Because I see Donnie being very loyal to Leo and neutral with most arguments.

Siblings do fight and butt heads over more serious issues because usually they tell each other what the other doesn't want to hear. Questioning Leo's recent choices or confronting the consequences with him would cause a lot of tension, especially from a neutral party.

If Donnie and Raph both butt heads with Leo, even temp, this could cause Leo to go off on his own and eventually get hurt like in Leonardo #1. Since I'm sure Shredder will be out for them more than ever now.

So over all: Yes. Just not permanently or constantly.

[ssjup81]

Often the second in command is not just an auxiliary leader. It is also their job to (temporarily) unseat the leader if he feels the Leader is acting with reckless disregard for the safety of the team.Oh yeah, in some ways, I think Leo may view Donnie as the "second in command" type, you know? On Leo's T-phone, for Donnie, he used a Space Hero character....I think it's the "Spock" type character. Not the one who gets slapped all the time. The alien one or maybe it's the "McCoy" character. Dr. Mindstrong...

Never mind. It's Dr. Mindstrong. I wonder what pics he has for Raph and Mikey, if he's using Space Hero characters.

[ssjup81]

That was funny!!! Lol, I am a fan of Donnie's sarcasm... Same here. I love it and with a person like Rob voicing him, it's perfect.O no, The Leo Donnie focus is getting old... And I love Donnie!I feel the same, and I'm favoring both Leo and Donnie for this incarnation. This is the first time I've ever favored Leo in any incarnation, but I do agree that Raph and Mikey need to be dealt with more. I mentioned that too in one of the other threads here...I think in the things you want to see in season 3 thread.Show me Mikey get his feelings hurt and be sad!!!!Yeah, I would like this as well. Mikey is generally in a good mood, most of the time. He also comes across as carefree. Maybe if they do the one-shot (or closer to it), they'll show Mikey dealing with it in his own way. In the comics, he took out his frustrations on the a punching bag in the barn, didn't he? And in movie 1, they showed him punching the punching bag. Also, movie 1 Mikey didn't want to fathom the death of Splinter and avoided it. I want to see something like that with this incarnation, to show that there is more to him than just his being a compassionate prankster and natural fighter (I still feel he's the best fighter out of the four as he does seem the most natural to it). I also like to think that there's a dark side to him that may come out when totally necessary. I got that impression from Pizza Face. ^^Show the side of Raph that loves and cares for his brothers!!! There is so much more to Raph than just his Hot headed nature!!!!Well, I think he does show he cares about them, just in his own "tough love" type of way. Like when Mikey was upset over what happened with Bradford and how he used him, he cheered Mikey up or in the "Sadorable" ep with Donnie, at the end of the episode, he was bragging to April about how cool Donnie was. He has his moments. I think one of the best ones was in Slash's debut ep. He complained about his brothers, but was quick to protect them and even explained to Slash what good friends/brothers do for one another.Yeah, I like Mikey as the silly little brother, But no one is happy and upbeat all the time!!!! Mikey needs fleshed out!!!
I want to see him get his feelings hurt or be sad, I want to see how his brothers react!Most definitely! I'd love to see how the other three would try to cheer him up. IMO, they (even Splinter) seem to take him for granted. If he was really down, how would the others react? Such an interesting possibility.Yeah, because The new Donnie IS snarky at times! but I like:lol:Most of my favorite lines for this series so far have come from Donnie, like his snarky, sarcastic, "Maybe it's a Kraang prom...HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW?!" line or that other one where Leo asked why he didn't tell him about the force field and Donnie was like, "Because I wanted us to fail. How was I supposed to know?!" I love those moments.It would make my day if this plot came to pass and Raph would flip out trying to somehow "fix" things between his brothers in his own Raph way (that would probably mean he would accidently make things worse). But there would be heart there!!!That would be interesting too, if it did turn out that way.

[JTH]

I think it's bound to happen.

From what we've come to learn from Donnie's character, he is very emotional when it comes to how he handles stress and pressure.

Donnie has so much on his plate right now based on preparing for this upcoming Kraang invasion, preparing the "Turtle Mech", and continuing to make more Retro-Mutagen.

And now we will surely have Leo and the others wanting Donnie to cure Karai during all this, another person who made a decision that caused their own fate and now has been thrown at the feet of Donnie to fix. That's has to be very hard to take knowing he's literally the only person that can do anything about it.

Basically, it's another Timothy ordeal, the only difference being he is responsible for Timothy's fate and knows he is obligated to help Timothy to right his own wrong that he did.

Leo will probably push Donnie to put Karai ahead of everyone else because she's family, but Donatello may feel that he shouldn't because her decision to leave the lair resulted in her fate and they should focus more on curing people who were unfortunate victims, which would be why Mr. O'Neil was always top priority to them, because they themselves caused what happened to April's dad.

[pennydreadful]

It would make my day if this plot came to pass and Raph would flip out trying to somehow "fix" things between his brothers in his own Raph way (that would probably mean he would accidently make things worse). But there would be heart there!!!

Agreed; that would be great to see. Somehow, I don't think he'd react too well to friction between the siblings (that wasn't him and Leo!).

[victory_angel]

Leo will probably push Donnie to put Karai ahead of everyone else because she's family, but Donatello may feel that he shouldn't because her decision to leave the lair resulted in her fate and they should focus more on curing people who were unfortunate victims, which would be why Mr. O'Neil was always top priority to them, because they themselves caused what happened to April's dad.

I think Donnie will attempt to create a retromutagen for Karai but from the sound of things is it takes a few months to create. And Leo would be pressuring him about it saying "I need this now, Donnie! Not next week, not next month, now! Don't you get that?!"

And I can certainly see Leo verbally slapping Donnie in the face with using his first batch of retromutagen on April's dad. Which in turn will cause the other Turtles along with April and Casey to say "Whoa man, not cool!"

[Shark_Blade]

It won't be easy since Karai was not exposed to normal mutagen, something was added accidentally to it by Baxter.

Maybe that's why Donnie said "I dunno, Mikey.." But how did he know, or was that just his gut feeling?

[ssjup81]

It won't be easy since Karai was not exposed to normal mutagen, something was added accidentally to it by Baxter.

Maybe that's why Donnie said "I dunno, Mikey.." But how did he know, or was that just his gut feeling?I figured he said that because he didn't have anymore mutagen.

[victory_angel]

I figured he said that because he didn't have anymore mutagen.

I think he may have suspected something was different with the mutation if Shredder was going out of his way to use her as bait like that. But I think it's more like he has a lot on his plate already, after all he has said that it takes ten canisters of mutagen in order to make only a small bit of retro mutagen.

In Follow the leader Donnie did say they had 63 more canisters of mutagen to find. We don't know how many the Turtles have found behind the scenes, same with the Foot and Baxter Stockman. We know Donnie has gone through quite a few canisters in his initial attempts at making the Retromutagen, and Mutagen man has eaten a number of them as well.

So if there are any canisters still out there, then it is unlikely that the Shredder will allow the Turtles to hunt for them with Tigerclaw in his employ.

On top of this there is the Kraang invasion to prepare for which technically does hold more precedence over Karai.

So if things are being set up for Leo and Donnie to get into a serious depute. Not just a squabble but an actual serious situation that causes tension between them.

It would either involve Leo pressuring Donnie about something and resulting in him saying something that makes him come across as an jerk-ass.

Or Donnie tries to reason with him and get him to see that going after the Shredder right now would be suicide. I.E. the you don't want justice, you want vengeance talk. And that results in Leo saying or doing something that makes him sound like a jerk-ass.

Or a combination of both.

[ssjup81]

I think he may have suspected something was different with the mutation if Shredder was going out of his way to use her as bait like that. But I think it's more like he has a lot on his plate already, after all he has said that it takes ten canisters of mutagen in order to make only a small bit of retro mutagen. Hm, yeah, maybe that's it. I didn't think about that.In Follow the leader Donnie did say they had 63 more canisters of mutagen to find. We don't know how many the Turtles have found behind the scenes, same with the Foot and Baxter Stockman. We know Donnie has gone through quite a few canisters in his initial attempts at making the Retromutagen, and Mutagen man has eaten a number of them as well. To be honest, I actually forgot that they were searching for mutagen canisters after Slash's debut episode.So if there are any canisters still out there, then it is unlikely that the Shredder will allow the Turtles to hunt for them with Tigerclaw in his employ.I could see him sending out his Footbots to retrieve them. I wish the last few eps were around now! I wish they aired animated shows the way they do in Japan. They air an episode every week. Maybe have a break for like a holiday, or whatever, but generally Japan usually airs a new episode of their shows every week. If a series has 26 episodes, it'll get aired 26 weeks in a row or either the breaks would be shorter.On top of this there is the Kraang invasion to prepare for which technically does hold more precedence over Karai. Could you see Donnie working in his lab on the mech, and Leo constantly bugging him about doing something for Karai in his way, which pushes Donnie over the edge? Seriously, conflict or no, I want Donnie to lose it. Both he and Leo seem to be in situations where they have to deal with the most stress compared to that of Raph and Mikey (that we know of). Donnie feeling bad for Timothy and feeling responsible for that (wish they'd go back to it), working on a retro mutagen constantly, worrying over the Kraang, and now he has to worry about Karai. He just has to explode at some point, imo.So if things are being set up for Leo and Donnie to get into a serious depute. Not just a squabble but an actual serious situation that causes tension between them.I'm hoping beyond hope for this, mainly because, for me, this would be a first. I never got around to reading/collecting the IDW series, so I've never experienced reading or seeing turtles material where they had serious conflict.It would either involve Leo pressuring Donnie about something and resulting in him saying something that makes him come across as an jerk-ass.

Or Donnie tries to reason with him and get him to see that going after the Shredder right now would be suicide. I.E. the you don't want justice, you want vengeance talk. And that results in Leo saying or doing something that makes him sound like a jerk-ass.Leo can say things "jerky" sometimes, but I don't think it's intentional, just as how you put it. Maybe he'll say something where he'll end up putting his foot in his mouth. I wonder if Leo will want vengeance more than Splinter for what happened to Karai.

Also, I was just thinking...if the show goes on this path and maybe have Leo/Donnie conflict, maybe it'll be due to guilt. Maybe Leo'll feel so guilty, that he's not being rational and will be taking his guilt out on Donnie which will lead to their dispute. If they do have this type of conflict, maybe a "vision quest" will set them all straight again.

[Warhorse]

Another probability for conflict is Leo pressuring Donnie about creating the retromutagen and accidentally says that they had wasted their last batch on Mr. O'Neil.

Leo would never say or think something like that. He considers April as a great friend, and she is well respected by Splinter. This line of thinking simply would not exist in Leo. I can't see any of the Turtles thinking that way, due to the fact that Splinter is fine in his rat form and is more than capable of taking care of himself. April's dad, not so much.

[ssjup81]

Leo would never say or think something like that. He considers April as a great friend, and she is well respected by Splinter. This line of thinking simply would not exist in Leo. I can't see any of the Turtles thinking that way, due to the fact that Splinter is fine in his rat form and is more than capable of taking care of himself. April's dad, not so much.Well, I couldn't see him saying something that extreme, but I could still see him pressuring Donnie to make a retromutagen for Karai and Leo maybe unintentionally, emotionally and frustratingly getting on Donnie for his lack of progress or something.

[Warhorse]

Well, I couldn't see him saying something that extreme, but I could still see him pressuring Donnie to make a retromutagen for Karai and Leo maybe unintentionally, emotionally and frustratingly getting on Donnie for his lack of progress or something.

Pressuring Donnie, yes, but he would never say something as cold hearted as "wasting the retromutagen on April's dad". Like I said, that kind of thinking would never compute in Leo. It's why he always held out hope for Karai, because he tries to look for the good in things, not the bad.

[ssjup81]

Pressuring Donnie, yes, but he would never say something as cold hearted as "wasting the retromutagen on April's dad". Like I said, that kind of thinking would never compute in Leo. It's why he always held out hope for Karai, because he tries to look for the good in things, not the bad.I still feel he can offend Donnie in some way if he gives into his emotions, though, hence why I used "unintentional". Maybe he wouldn't say something that extreme, but he, or either Donnie, could say something to cause some kind of conflict, given the stress they will be under, imo.

[victory_angel]

I still feel he can offend Donnie in some way if he gives into his emotions, though, hence why I used "unintentional". Maybe he wouldn't say something that extreme, but he, or either Donnie, could say something to cause some kind of conflict, given the stress they will be under, imo.

I don't think Leo would intentionally say something like that. But if it's a foot in his mouth reaction it is possible.

Maybe Leo is on Donnie's case about getting the Retromutagen, while Donnie is making the Turtle Mech. Donnie gets frustrated enough to dish out the facts to Leo about how long it takes to make Retromutagen and on top of this there is a pending Kraang invasion to worry about.

Then Leo sticks his foot in his mouth and says something that is more like a slap in the face to Donnie, and one thing that could be like that is "If you hadn't wasted your last batch on Mr. O'Neil we wouldn't be having this argument! (realizes what he had just said)"

[ssjup81]

I still couldn't see him saying something like that, even if it is a foot in mouth situation. That's just too harsh.

That aside, I rewatched Kuro Kabuto. Does Donnie truly respect Leo as leader? Yeah he listens to him, but I found it strange how he didn't really defend Leo to Raph when they were arguing over his leadership role.

I do wonder if he could have some slight resentment towards Leo, but just internalizes it.

It's like Raph, only he probably talked to Spike over it. When Slash attacked Leo, he went on about wanting to do that for a long time.

[victory_angel]

I still couldn't see him saying something like that, even if it is a foot in mouth situation. That's just too harsh.

We would wait and see. I mean Leo is upset about what happend to Karai, he also wants to have Karai restored to being a human, and he wants Shredder to pay for what he has done to their family.

So I can honestly see Donnie trying to reason with Leo at least. Donnie has been known to act as team therapist sometimes. But we have seen signs that his patients with Leo regarding Karai does have its limit.

That aside, I rewatched Kuro Kabuto. Does Donnie truly respect Leo as leader? Yeah he listens to him, but I found it strange how he didn't really defend Leo to Raph when they were arguing over his leadership role.

I do wonder if he could have some slight resentment towards Leo, but just internalizes it.

It's like Raph, only he probably talked to Spike over it. When Slash attacked Leo, he went on about wanting to do that for a long time.

He's a bit more respectful then Raph and Mikey are, after all he has indicated that he trusts Leo more then Raph and Mikey. However there are moments where even he believes that Leo is fooling himself and Karai is one of those said moments.

We know Donnie has stated he hates Karai when he first encounters her and yes he was the only turtle who was visibly upset that Leo didn't trust any of his brothers enough to inform them about her. Raph is more along the lines of disappointed because he had seen Karai before and knew she was bad news from the start. And Mikey was more confused about what had transpired. Plus Donnie is the only other Turtle who has a human love interest so his statement of "I can't believe you didn't trust any of us to tell us." Can be interpreted as "I can't believe you didn't trust *Me* enough to come to me about this"

Like Raph, Donnie has little reason to like or trust Karai. She's was raised by and is associated the Foot and she has tried to kill April on at least two occasions. And she has put them in mortal danger as well.

As a kunoichi Karai is trained to use seduction as one of her weapons. So Donnie may understand that Leo's feelings are real which is why he's not on the "Forget about Karai" bandwagon. But he doesn't see any good coming from the relationship because Karai is still a loose cannon in several regards.

And then when they learn Karai is Splinter's missing daughter that lends to weight to Leo sensing that there is good in her. However there is still the question whether or not she is a lost cause. Because even if she did learn Splinter was her father she could still convincingly play the innocent act and stab them in the back when their guard it down.

When Karai informs them that she believes Splinter is her father and Leo takes her to the lair. Donnie does visibly balk at this because even if she wasn't lying through her teeth, it was too soon to have her come to their secret lair because she very well could be leading the Foot Clan to their home. And her betrayal towards Tiger Claw at the end it could still be possible for it to be an act as well.

Also one of Leo's greatest flaws in this incarnation in particular is that he doesn't consider how his brothers views on something. It feels more like he has something he wants done and he expects his brothers to go along with it no matter what.

Hence Leo's line of "So I'm only leader unless it's something you don't want to do?" Regardless it still Donnie who is the one who just sighs and says "Fine, we're going with you." Because they are still a team and a family. And in all good faith they just couldn't stand aside knowing Leo was going to face the Shredder on his own to retrieve Karai.

[ssjup81]

We would wait and see. I mean Leo is upset about what happend to Karai, he also wants to have Karai restored to being a human, and he wants Shredder to pay for what he has done to their family.Definitely. I still wonder if Leo will be more vengeful than Splinter. That's how I feel anyway...or hoping for it.So I can honestly see Donnie trying to reason with Leo at least. Donnie has been known to act as team therapist sometimes. But we have seen signs that his patients with Leo regarding Karai does have its limit. I could see that too. I'm expecting it, just like how he was in Wrath of Tigerclaw.He's a bit more respectful then Raph and Mikey are, after all he has indicated that he trusts Leo more then Raph and Mikey. However there are moments where even he believes that Leo is fooling himself and Karai is one of those said moments.

We know Donnie has stated he hates Karai when he first encounters her and yes he was the only turtle who was visibly upset that Leo didn't trust any of his brothers enough to inform them about her. I definitely noticed that. He was wearing a bit of a scowl during Leo's confession. Raph is more along the lines of disappointed because he had seen Karai before and knew she was bad news from the start. And Mikey was more confused about what had transpired. Plus Donnie is the only other Turtle who has a human love interest so his statement of "I can't believe you didn't trust any of us to tell us." Can be interpreted as "I can't believe you didn't trust *Me* enough to come to me about this"It definitely can be interpreted in that way. When Raph argued with Leo that time about keeping Karai secret from the others, he was like, "Do you think Donnie and Mikey wouldn't understand?....Do you think Donnie wouldn't understand?" I figured Raph said that because of Donnie's crush on April. And, like it was mentioned earlier, when Donnie said that, he had a bit of a scowl that didn't fully let up.Like Raph, Donnie has little reason to like or trust Karai. She's was raised by and is associated the Foot and she has tried to kill April on at least two occasions. And she has put them in mortal danger as well. He seemed to react indifferently to Karai when she kinda became an ally (recent eps) but hateful of course while she was still an enemy. I found it interesting how he technically beat her in Target: April O'Neil right before Chromedome showed up.As a kunoichi Karai is trained to use seduction as one of her weapons. So Donnie may understand that Leo's feelings are real which is why he's not on the "Forget about Karai" bandwagon. But he doesn't see any good coming from the relationship because Karai is still a loose cannon in several regards. I agree to an extent, I couldn't see him still feeling such a way now after recent events.And then when they learn Karai is Splinter's missing daughter that lends to weight to Leo sensing that there is good in her. However there is still the question whether or not she is a lost cause. Because even if she did learn Splinter was her father she could still convincingly play the innocent act and stab them in the back when their guard it down. Definitely, just not now.When Karai informs them that she believes Splinter is her father and Leo takes her to the lair. Donnie does visibly balk at this because even if she wasn't lying through her teeth, it was too soon to have her come to their secret lair because she very well could be leading the Foot Clan to their home. And her betrayal towards Tiger Claw at the end it could still be possible for it to be an act as well. I liked that part...but then later defended Leo's actions to Raph. His reaction after Splinter said that Shredder's forces were probably on their way was great. Based on that, I could see him questioning Karai's motives after. It was like a slap in the face since he defended Leo to Raph...but as I said earlier, due to the changing circumstances, I couldn't see him having any reason to feel that way.Also one of Leo's greatest flaws in this incarnation in particular is that he doesn't consider how his brothers views on something. It feels more like he has something he wants done and he expects his brothers to go along with it no matter what. Yeah, I've noticed this as well, like in Follow the Leader or even Parasitica (sp?). Personally, I felt Mikey's idea was a good one and it made sense given the situation. Capture it and then take it out as opposed to endangering Mikey, using him as bait. They should've combined Leo and Mikey's plan.
Hence Leo's line of "So I'm only leader unless it's something you don't want to do?" Regardless it still Donnie who is the one who just sighs and says "Fine, we're going with you." Because they are still a team and a family. And in all good faith they just couldn't stand aside knowing Leo was going to face the Shredder on his own to retrieve Karai.That too, but the fact that he didn't say anything speaks volumes to me. He chose to do so because it was the right thing to do, not because he seemed to agree fully with Leo's leadership authority, like Raph. To me, it's like he was questioning it....just internally. I just get the impression that he doesn't fully see him as leader.

That aside, I wonder if something will happen with Snake Karai that will really cloud Leo's judgment and Donnie has to be the logical one to try and have him see reason, like in Mutagen Man Unleashed where Leo had to have Donnie realize that Timothy was gone and that he was no longer the Timothy he knew. The difference being is that reason won't get through to Leo because of how much more personal it is.

If there's a foot in mouth moment for Leo, maybe I could see him saying something harsh regarding Timothy, putting Karai's welfare ahead of his. Maybe he could say something like he chose to be mutated, Karai didn't. I dunno...I just couldn't see him saying something harsh regarding Kirby.

[victory_angel]

If there's a foot in mouth moment for Leo, maybe I could see him saying something harsh regarding Timothy, putting Karai's welfare ahead of his. Maybe he could say something like he chose to be mutated, Karai didn't. I dunno...I just couldn't see him saying something harsh regarding Kirby.

That's possible. The reason felt Leo would say something that harsh regarding Kirby, is because he was the only person they've used the retromutagen on.

When Donnie had made only two vials of retromutagen one for Kirby and one for Splinter. The first vial was broken in a struggle against Baxter Stockman, and the second one successfully restored Kirby by way of mcguffin. And with the upcoming Kraang invasion Donnie's going to be focused on preparing for that and not so much Karai. So he's not going to be preparing retromutagen any time soon.

And saying something like that even as a foot in the mouth statement would get everyone telling Leo he is out of line.

Then again, Donnie in many incarnations has also been the most loyal of the Turtle's. Raph is loyal to the team, but his temper makes him irrational and that impulsiveness does make him harder to trust. And Mikey is erratic and childish much of the time.

Donnie is generally the most loyal towards Leo. He is usually the one asking Leo what they should do in serious situations such as when Slash and the Newtralizer are going after the Kraang. And there are times he questions Leo's plans but that is only done as a way of verifying them. Also there are moments when it feels like Donnie can read Leo better then Raph or Mikey can. Such as Parasitica Donnie seems to sense something is wrong with Leo but he isn't sure what. And in Showdown when Leo intends to destroy the Power Cell so the Kraang can't use it again. Donnie's reaction of "Whoa Leo, please tell me you aren't thinking what I think you're thinking?!" is along the lines of "Leo, please tell me it doesn't have to come this?"

Leo also seems to acknowledge Donnie's loyalty as well such as when they are playing "King of the Mountain". When Donnie joins him on the wire Leo smiles as if saying "I know this brother will obey me."

But the difference between this incarnation of Donnie and the other incarnations is that Leo has earned Donnie's loyalty in those incarnations for the most part. In this incarnation, Donnie's loyalty has been straining quite a bit in the latter parts of this series.

As Splinter did state in Follow the Leader "A "True Leader" doesn't impose his will on his followers, but helps them to flourish."

Perhaps the conflict wouldn't be a foot in mouth statement, but it could be something like Leo lashing out and punching or maybe slapping Donnie when he's trying to reason with him.

However it is possible the conflict could show how Donnie becomes leader of the team.

That too, but the fact that he didn't say anything speaks volumes to me. He chose to do so because it was the right thing to do, not because he seemed to agree fully with Leo's leadership authority, like Raph. To me, it's like he was questioning it....just internally. I just get the impression that he doesn't fully see him as leader.

In New Girl in Town, Raph was given the role of leader because he was going on and on about how would be better leader then Leo. And Leo in turn got fed up and said "Fine, you're leader."

Then when he tells Splinter what he did. Splinter essentially says "You can't give up leadership just because you don't like the role you were given."

On the flip-side however it is the right of any member of the team to challenge the leader for the leadership role. Normally the challenge to unseat the leader is if the leader is doing actions that his followers find questionable, or could potentially put the team at risk.

But this in itself is also a big risk because such a challenge can not be posed unless there is legit concrete evidence to back it up. If the challenger is wrong, then they are viewed as being usurpers and that will have it's own consequences.

[JTH]

Actually, now that I think about it.

Metalhead Rewired they pretty much butted heads the entire episode with each other.

[ssjup81]

Actually, now that I think about it.

Metalhead Rewired they pretty much butted heads the entire episode with each other.Yeah, you're right. I have an excuse to rewatch that ep. lol

[The Vernon]

I concur that both Leo and Don should both butt heads. Here is my thinking: Don makes a mechanical bandanna with a built-in GPS system. Leonardo has a problem with that 'cus it leads him where he wants to go. Don knows that, and thus the battle starts. Leo fights don... to the death.

It's a work in progress novel. I only have that one paragraph, sue me.

[victory_angel]

Actually, now that I think about it.

Metalhead Rewired they pretty much butted heads the entire episode with each other.

Yeah, you're right. I have an excuse to rewatch that ep. lol

I think that could be a start of something major between them.

[ssjup81]

Maybe, but Leo did apologize to Donnie for not trusting his judgment.

[victory_angel]

One thing Donnie and Leo have in common is that they have the teams safety at heart.

Leo was against Donnie in that situation because narrow view regarding Ninjitsu aside, he knew Metalhead was dangerous. And his argument when he's telling Donnie to shut off Metalhead for good was that the Kraang had taken control of Metalhead before and they didn't completely know for certain as to what damage metalhead had endured when he was plugged in that computer.

And when he is telling Donnie to shut down Metalhead for good, he does sound apologetic about it because he knows Donnie did strongly believe that Metalhead was on their side. But the robot was just too glitchy to be trusted.

And both of them are libel to turn against anyone they feel could cause potential harm to the family. Such as when Donnie takes Leo's side against Raph in Turtle Temper. Or when Leo angerly points out to Donnie that Metalhead nearly ripped off Mikey's face.

[billbot85]

As of right now, I don't see much of a reason for Leo and Donnie to butt heads, but I believe it's possible for it to head in that direction. Considering Donnie's the brains of the team, and creates all of their gadgets, he can have the potential to challenge Leo's decisions for the team more. It would be an interesting change of pace from the typical Raph and Leo rivalry.

In the OT, it seemed Leo and Don were more on the same wavelength and argued more over what action to take. Raph and Mikey bickered among themselves. :tlol:

[victory_angel]

As of right now, I don't see much of a reason for Leo and Donnie to butt heads, but I believe it's possible for it to head in that direction. Considering Donnie's the brains of the team, and creates all of their gadgets, he can have the potential to challenge Leo's decisions for the team more. It would be an interesting change of pace from the typical Raph and Leo rivalry.

In the OT, it seemed Leo and Don were more on the same wavelength and argued more over what action to take. Raph and Mikey bickered among themselves. :tlol:

We have seen Donnie trying to maintain a neutral view on the situation with Karai, but there are hints that suggest that he can no longer abide by the neutral view.

Also Leo has brushed Donnie off as one of the weaker fighters of the group. As we have seen him take down easily during group fights, resulting in someone having to protect him such as Raph.

And yet when Donnie is by himself he does fight rather well such as taking out both Fishface and DogPound on his own. And he had Karai over powered until ChromeDome showed up.

Ciro has said they would have an episode hinting at the Leo one shot, but he never specifically said it was Leo who will get the stuffing beaten out of him. There are hints pointing to it being Leo, particularly since Donnie assumes the leadership role during the northampton arc.

However this situation has changed up as well such as Raph being the one who was beaten to a pulp in the 1990's movie.


As you have pointed out Leo and Don tend to be on the same wave length in the OT. But there were moments where Donatello would tells stories that embellish him as a better fighter then he actually is. And then there are moments like "Night of the Dark Turtle" where Donnie is being teased about favoring technical skill over the traditional tactics. And that results in Donnie feeling that he has to prove himself as just an effective fighter then any one else.

So what if in this case it's Donnie who becomes upset and goes out to the the surface and is beaten nearly to death.

[Ashwolf]

that could happen if karai attacked april unintentially

[victory_angel]

that could happen if karai attacked april unintentially

There is supposedly a moment in the upcoming episodes where April is kidnapped.

[JTH]

There is supposedly a moment in the upcoming episodes where April is kidnapped.
There is? I thought the Baxter Stockman episode was the "April kidnapping" that they were alluding to.

There's another one?

[victory_angel]

There is? I thought the Baxter Stockman episode was the "April kidnapping" that they were alluding to.

There's another one?

Well we do need to get back to the April is a mutant plot line. They've brought it up it's only fair we address the elephant in the room and having April getting captured by the Kraang or by Tiger Claw to bait out the Turtles is one way to do that.

[victory_angel]

Someone posted this from Tumbler to the official info.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/bb67656bdfe81973e65a4c523684bc3b/tumblr_n9c6c93Jvv1t95oyfo1_400.png

[Midnight Mutant]

Someone posted this from Tumbler to the official info.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/bb67656bdfe81973e65a4c523684bc3b/tumblr_n9c6c93Jvv1t95oyfo1_400.png
YES! They will butt heads! I was hoping/suspecting they would. : D
I'm pretty excited to see how Donnie takes up leadership and how well Raph takes it.

[ssjup81]

YES! They will butt heads! I was hoping/suspecting they would. : D
I'm pretty excited to see how Donnie takes up leadership and how well Raph takes it.You aren't the only one! I'm super excited about it! I can't wait to see how it all plays out.

[victory_angel]

If Donnie blames himself or at least feels that he's at fault for Leo's beating, I would not be surprised.

[Leofan26]

YES! They will butt heads! I was hoping/suspecting they would. : D
I'm pretty excited to see how Donnie takes up leadership and how well Raph takes it.

Raph seems to separated from the team at some point, maybe since Leo leaves the team and Donnie takes charge the guy leaves too to try his own thing?

I don't know about Raph following Donnie's orders right away.

If that scene of Raph taking care of Leo happens after the attack, I could see it being Donnie instead due to guilt and saying " It's a lot harder to be a leader! " Flashbacks of them butting heads over ideas and saying sorry.

I know Raph fans won't be too happy about that but it'd make sense and allow them to make up in an emotional scene, showing that they do care about each other dispite the differences.

Raph would get his own emotional moment with Leo some other way.

[ssjup81]

I can't help but wonder if Splinter appoints Donnie as leader, or if he just does so on his own. If it's the former, I could see a scenario involving an annoyed Raph occurring and storming off to cool off.

In New Girl in Town, I think it was, Donnie kept his cool while Raph freaked out and instructed Raph to get Mikey and run after he used his bo to partially trap Snakeweed. That could've been foreshadowing right there. Seems Donnie loses his cool in a high-stress situation if his time is limited (Gauntlet) or if he can't figure something out.

[victory_angel]

Raph seems to separated from the team at some point, maybe since Leo leaves the team and Donnie takes charge the guy leaves too to try his own thing?

I don't know about Raph following Donnie's orders right away.

If that scene of Raph taking care of Leo happens after the attack, I could see it being Donnie instead due to guilt and saying " It's a lot harder to be a leader! " Flashbacks of them butting heads over ideas and saying sorry.

I know Raph fans won't be too happy about that but it'd make sense and allow them to make up in an emotional scene, showing that they do care about each other dispite the differences.

Raph would get his own emotional moment with Leo some other way.

Well Donnie I think understood Leo's burden in leading the team. Raph wanted leadership because one he is jealous of Leo and seems to equate Leo being appointed leader is another way for his older brother to rub the fact he's better in his face. When in reality, Leo didn't ask for the role because he felt he was better then his brothers, but because it felt like a privilege.

Raph on the other hand equated Leadership with getting your way no matter what. So when Donnie isn't working fast enough for Raph's liking, he tells threatens to hit Donnie if he didn't work faster. And then later when

In New Girl in Town when Leo gives Raph the leadership role. Donnie just tells Mikey that Leo needs his space because leading their group is certainly not easy. And later when Raph freaks out Donnie doesn't need to think or ask himself what Leo would have done, because he knows Leo would have gotten them out of there.

Later in Follow the Leader, Raph takes the leadership role again. And when Donnie and Mikey start to question it, Raph just says "We don't have time to argue, lets go rescue Leo."


Wormquake is Donnie's true debut role as a leader, and even though he's concerned about what has befallen his brothers he keeps focused on keeping April and Casey safe until they are able to figure out how to get to Leo, Raph, and Mikey.

Where as when Leo comments about the "Others" (meaning Donnie, April, and Casey) were trapped in the dimensional gateway. Raph says "And the brains of the team is trapped there with 'em." Before telling Leo he's at fault for that.

So I think if Donnie's leading the group in Leo's absence, I don't think there will be much question or issue about it.

[Warhorse]

I can't help but wonder if Splinter appoints Donnie as leader, or if he just does so on his own. If it's the former, I could see a scenario involving an annoyed Raph occurring and storming off to cool off.

In New Girl in Town, I think it was, Donnie kept his cool while Raph freaked out and instructed Raph to get Mikey and run after he used his bo to partially trap Snakeweed. That could've been foreshadowing right there. Seems Donnie loses his cool in a high-stress situation if his time is limited (Gauntlet) or if he can't figure something out.

Yeah, I find Splinter to be rather mean to Raph at times. Whenever he wins a sparring match, Splinter punishes him for it. When the others win, they get rewarded. I wonder if the show is doing that on purpose. We already seen April get mad at Splinter for not being the ideal father figure, calling him out when he hid while his sons were out there fighting his battles for him. Maybe this is all building up for when Raphael finally snaps.

Well Donnie I think understood Leo's burden in leading the team. Raph wanted leadership because one he is jealous of Leo and seems to equate Leo being appointed leader is another way for his older brother to rub the fact he's better in his face. When in reality, Leo didn't ask for the role because he felt he was better then his brothers, but because it felt like a privilege.

Raph on the other hand equated Leadership with getting your way no matter what. So when Donnie isn't working fast enough for Raph's liking, he tells threatens to hit Donnie if he didn't work faster. And then later when

In New Girl in Town when Leo gives Raph the leadership role. Donnie just tells Mikey that Leo needs his space because leading their group is certainly not easy. And later when Raph freaks out Donnie doesn't need to think or ask himself what Leo would have done, because he knows Leo would have gotten them out of there.

Later in Follow the Leader, Raph takes the leadership role again. And when Donnie and Mikey start to question it, Raph just says "We don't have time to argue, lets go rescue Leo."


Wormquake is Donnie's true debut role as a leader, and even though he's concerned about what has befallen his brothers he keeps focused on keeping April and Casey safe until they are able to figure out how to get to Leo, Raph, and Mikey.

Where as when Leo comments about the "Others" (meaning Donnie, April, and Casey) were trapped in the dimensional gateway. Raph says "And the brains of the team is trapped there with 'em." Before telling Leo he's at fault for that.

So I think if Donnie's leading the group in Leo's absence, I don't think there will be much question or issue about it.

I so hate the idea of Donnie being leader after Leo. I rather be it Raph, since he and Leo are the top dogs in the battle arena, Raph should be in second command. Donnie has enough glory in this show, let Raph have some.

I am wondering if this Ciro guy is purposely trying to get Raph and Mikey fans to hate Donnie for all of the story arcs he's getting. If that's their intent, good job guys!

[ssjup81]

I blame the OT for this, but I always viewed Donny as second in command...and for the OT he led quite a bit, even with Leo right there.

Raph and Mikey are the impatient ones. Leo and Donny are the levelheaded ones. It would make sense for Donnie to be given the responsibility of leading as opposed to Raph, imo, because of that alone.

[victory_angel]

Yeah, I find Splinter to be rather mean to Raph at times. Whenever he wins a sparring match, Splinter punishes him for it. When the others win, they get rewarded. I wonder if the show is doing that on purpose. We already seen April get mad at Splinter for not being the ideal father figure, calling him out when he hid while his sons were out there fighting his battles for him. Maybe this is all building up for when Raphael finally snaps.


Raph is punished during Sparing matches for his actions. The first episode Raph got a claw in one of his pressure points because he was gloating about coming out as the victor of the match even though the purpose of the match wasn't to show who was the better fighter. But rather to show how their fighting technique has improved.

So yes Splinter does punish Raph more then the others, but the punishment isn't unjustified.

When April called him out about the fact he's waiting in the lair while his son's go out and face certain danger he snaps at her and says "I don't have to explain myself to a child." but later admits she was right to do so.

[Warhorse]

Raph is punished during Sparing matches for his actions. The first episode Raph got a claw in one of his pressure points because he was gloating about coming out as the victor of the match even though the purpose of the match wasn't to show who was the better fighter. But rather to show how their fighting technique has improved.

So yes Splinter does punish Raph more then the others, but the punishment isn't unjustified.

When April called him out about the fact he's waiting in the lair while his son's go out and face certain danger he snaps at her and says "I don't have to explain myself to a child." but later admits she was right to do so.

Leo gloats too. But he's teacher's pet and can do whatever he wants.

[ssjup81]

Leo gloats too. But he's teacher's pet and can do whatever he wants.When has Leo gloated, outside of the ep where Leo and Raph were going on about being better than Donnie and Mikey? I'm really having a tough time recalling any moments where he has.

[Warhorse]

When has Leo gloated, outside of the ep where Leo and Raph were going on about being better than Donnie and Mikey? I'm really having a tough time recalling any moments where he has.

Quite a few times, (the last slice of pizza , another episode where they were again sparring for food, and he won, with a smirk on his face, and showing off in front of Karai, in another episode and Raph saw right through him) and I'm pretty sure there were things we never saw, which is why Slash hit him so hard and actually made the comment of "I've been waiting for that for a long time".

[victory_angel]

Quite a few times, (the last slice of pizza , another episode where they were again sparring for food, and he won, with a smirk on his face, and showing off in front of Karai, in another episode and Raph saw right through him) and I'm pretty sure there were things we never saw, which is why Slash hit him so hard and actually made the comment of "I've been waiting for that for a long time".

Well yeah, Raph has a jealous streak about Leo (This isn't the entire reason for Raph's rivalry with Leo or his anger. It's just one facet of it.) It's been pointed out a number of times such as Raph getting mad and attacking Leo after Leo wins a sparing match. Heck it's also referenced in the "Tales of the Turtle Lair" Comic where the Tengu the Turtle's are fighting tells Raph "I'm your better, much like your older brother."


So it's more like Slash, back when he was known as Spike had heard more then one jealous rant about how Leo thinks he is so much better then everyone else.

[ssjup81]

Quite a few times, (the last slice of pizza , another episode where they were again sparring for food, and he won, with a smirk on his face, and showing off in front of Karai, in another episode and Raph saw right through him) and I'm pretty sure there were things we never saw, which is why Slash hit him so hard and actually made the comment of "I've been waiting for that for a long time".I don't see that as gloating though (the stealth training thing with the pizza) or the gyoza challenge.

Showing off in front of Karai doesn't seem to fit the definition of gloating either. He has a crush on her, so naturally he's going to try to show off to impress her, just like Donnie in the "sadorable" episode when he was sparring with Raph, who embarrassed him after he'd won. I found that ironic. Donnie sparred with Raph and won, but was embarrassed due to Raph's actions. Leo was sparring with Mikey who was doing ok and caught him offguard, embarrassing Leo and causing him to lose his cool.

As Leo is now, he comes across as humble, but I noticed that about Slash, and figured Raph would openly complain to Spike about Leo the most. I found it interesting how Slash beat up Donnie but seemed he was on the verge of killing Mikey before Raph through the smoke bomb egg...thing into his eyes to get Mikey to safety.

I still feel that Raph is jealous that Splinter didn't make him leader, but that's only a part of the reason. I get the impression that, at times, Raph feels that being the physically strongest means that makes you the best candidate for leader.

[Warhorse]

Well yeah, Raph has a jealous streak about Leo (This isn't the entire reason for Raph's rivalry with Leo or his anger. It's just one facet of it.) It's been pointed out a number of times such as Raph getting mad and attacking Leo after Leo wins a sparing match. Heck it's also referenced in the "Tales of the Turtle Lair" Comic where the Tengu the Turtle's are fighting tells Raph "I'm your better, much like your older brother."


So it's more like Slash, back when he was known as Spike had heard more then one jealous rant about how Leo thinks he is so much better then everyone else.

Or it's possible Slash saw it with his own eyes. Don't forget, he wasn't locked up in Raph's room the whole time, he was pretty much laying around the whole lair.

But this jealousy thing. What are the writers going to do? They can't just keep continuing down this road where he's under Leo's shadow, they have to write something where he is his own person, and very special in his own way, and not under anyone's shadow. I am hoping they might bring in The Nightwatcher, or make Raph the brother that is the brother looking out for his other siblings backs. And heck, he still has a weird way with animals (the pigeon) maybe they can expand on that.

I don't see that as gloating though (the stealth training thing with the pizza) or the gyoza challenge.

Showing off in front of Karai doesn't seem to fit the definition of gloating either. He has a crush on her, so naturally he's going to try to show off to impress her, just like Donnie in the "sadorable" episode when he was sparring with Raph, who embarrassed him after he'd won. I found that ironic. Donnie sparred with Raph and won, but was embarrassed due to Raph's actions. Leo was sparring with Mikey who was doing ok and caught him offguard, embarrassing Leo and causing him to lose his cool.

As Leo is now, he comes across as humble, but I noticed that about Slash, and figured Raph would openly complain to Spike about Leo the most. I found it interesting how Slash beat up Donnie but seemed he was on the verge of killing Mikey before Raph through the smoke bomb egg...thing into his eyes to get Mikey to safety.

I still feel that Raph is jealous that Splinter didn't make him leader. I get the impression that, at times, Raph feels that being the physically strongest means that makes you the best candidate for leader.

Nah, I think that jealousy started way back before any leadership stuff. I really think that no matter what Raph did, he felt it wasn't good enough for Splinter. And I find this Splinter to be rather mean to Raph more than his other brothers. When one child is being abused more than anyone else, something psychological is about to happen.

As for Slash beating up Mikey the hardest. I honestly don't think he did that due to some scorn Raph felt towards Mikey. I think Slash did that because Mikey is the biggest threat to it just being Slash and Raph. Mikey is the closest to Raph, and I think Slash was jealous of that. In a sense, maybe this is why Raph is jealous of Leo, he's closest to Splinter, the father figure of the house hold, and I highly doubt Raph is his second "favorite son".

And Leo isn't totally humble, he slapped Mikey for crying out loud.

[MiBs]

one of the things I noticed in Slash and Destroy, regarding Leo and Raph, was in the opening scene where Raph is angry with Mikey for getting pizza grease on his magazines. Not only does Leo take Mikey's side, but he does it in a very goody two shoes, "holy" kind of way (which I'm pretty sure he does on purpose) saying that it's "just stuff" and "like master Splinter says....blah blah blah". When my older brother used to do that, when I was a kid, it just p***ed me of. I guess because it in some ways made me feel very much like the younger sibling

I think Raph feels that no one is ever backing him up in situations like that. And I guess Leo is just teasing Raph every now and then, because Raph is doing it to his brothers all the time

[ssjup81]

Or it's possible Slash saw it with his own eyes. Don't forget, he wasn't locked up in Raph's room the whole time, he was pretty much laying around the whole lair. Yeah, I know, but I also wonder how long he'd had Spike.But this jealousy thing. What are the writers going to do? They can't just keep continuing down this road where he's under Leo's shadow, they have to write something where he is his own person, and very special in his own way, and not under anyone's shadow. I am hoping they might bring in The Nightwatcher, or make Raph the brother that is the brother looking out for his other siblings backs. And heck, he still has a weird way with animals (the pigeon) maybe they can expand on that.I wouldn't mind this. Raph needs to learn that Leo isn't better than him, and that all of them are good in their own ways.Nah, I think that jealousy started way back before any leadership stuff.You must've quoted me before my edit. I mentioned that it was part of the reason. I believe it started before the leadership thing too.I really think that no matter what Raph did, he felt it wasn't good enough for Splinter. And I find this Splinter to be rather mean to Raph more than his other brothers. When one child is being abused more than anyone else, something psychological is about to happen.I don't feel that it's abuse. I couldn't see Splinter as an abusive person. Raph is the "badboy" of the group. Maybe in Raph's mind it came across as that when it really wasn't. I was under the impression that he was the bully of the group.As for Slash beating up Mikey the hardest. I honestly don't think he did that due to some scorn Raph felt towards Mikey. I think Slash did that because Mikey is the biggest threat to it just being Slash and Raph. Mikey is the closest to Raph, and I think Slash was jealous of that. In a sense, maybe this is why Raph is jealous of Leo, he's closest to Splinter, the father figure of the house hold, and I highly doubt Raph is his second "favorite son".That's a good theory. Maybe Slash was jealous. Also, maybe Raph wants to be close to Splinter like Leo. Sibling rivalry.
And Leo isn't totally humble, he slapped Mikey for crying out loud.I meant about his leadership status.

Also, he slapped Mikey to calm him down that first time, which it didn't (loved Mikey's reaction) and the other time in Turtle Temper because Mikey missed Raph being there, and he thanked him for it I thought. I thought Leo said something like, "Happy to help."

For the former, Donnie's slapped Mikey too to calm him down.

I don't see how this has any association with humbleness in general. As he is now, Leo really seems humble about his leadership status.

[Warhorse]

I believe it started before the leadership thing too.I don't feel that it's abuse. I couldn't see Splinter as an abusive person. Raph is the "badboy" of the group. Maybe in Raph's mind it came across as that when it really wasn't. I was under the impression that he was the bully of the group.

Well, if Raph is the bully of the group, I'm going back to my psychology classes of 98, where most bullying is stemmed from that person being bullied themselves by a parent, and they act out on the aggression to other kids and siblings.

But then again, this is a part of Raphael in this show that Raph do not like, the bully aspect. He had a temper in other incarnations, but he wasn't an out right bully.

[ssjup81]

Well, if Raph is the bully of the group, I'm going back to my psychology classes of 98, where most bullying is stemmed from that person being bullied themselves by a parent, and they act out on the aggression to other kids and siblings.Or it could be for attention. Any type, be it positive or negative. I studied psychology and sociology too.:P There are some instances where a person bullies a certain person out of jealousy.But then again, this is a part of Raphael in this show that Raph do not like, the bully aspect. He had a temper in other incarnations, but he wasn't an out right bully.Yeah, he bullies Mikey a lot, but we know he cares about him very much. In Pizzaface when Mikey had to fight all three brothers, he was apologetic with Donny and Leo, but wasn't with Raph. I guess Raph's hit him one time too many.

Oh yeah, Raph's also made that statement, "Nobody hits Mikey but me" in the first Rat King ep. Raph has many layers and facets to him...I wish they could get explored more.

[Warhorse]

one of the things I noticed in Slash and Destroy, regarding Leo and Raph, was in the opening scene where Raph is angry with Mikey for getting pizza grease on his magazines. Not only does Leo take Mikey's side, but he does it in a very goody two shoes, "holy" kind of way (which I'm pretty sure he does on purpose) saying that it's "just stuff" and "like master Splinter says....blah blah blah". When my older brother used to do that, when I was a kid, it just p***ed me of. I guess because it in some ways made me feel very much like the younger sibling

I think Raph feels that no one is ever backing him up in situations like that. And I guess Leo is just teasing Raph every now and then, because Raph is doing it to his brothers all the time

Oh, Leo can be full of himself sometimes. Remember in Shellacne, when Mikey asked him if he ever had zits, and Leo was actually very vain about "Oh no, never!":lol:

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I've noticed Leo in the CGI projects (this and TMNT 2007) has been really cocky. I didn't like it in the 2007 movie and I don't like it in this show. However, since Leo is maturing a bit here, I've looked passed it. In that same episode you've mentioned, thankfully him and Donnie didn't laugh at Mikey when Raph was making fun of him.

[victory_angel]

In the 2007 movie when he said "And further more, I'm better then you." That was more like he was saying that because he knew that's where Raph's issues stemmed from, where it would hurt Raph the most.


The fear and the belief that Leo is better then him.

[MiBs]

In the 2007 movie when he said "And further more, I'm better then you." That was more like he was saying that because he knew that's where Raph's issues stemmed from, where it would hurt Raph the most.


The fear and the belief that Leo is better then him.

That scene is very very good IMO, and one of the things I really like about it is Leo's attitude, it just makes it so much more tense. That he's got that side in the Nick show, is one of the reasons that I like Leo much more in this version

[Warhorse]

In the 2007 movie when he said "And further more, I'm better then you." That was more like he was saying that because he knew that's where Raph's issues stemmed from, where it would hurt Raph the most.


The fear and the belief that Leo is better then him.

I don't think so. I just don't think Raph wants to be told what to do. There are leaders in the world, followers in the world, and those who choose their own paths where they are neither. Raph is the third option. He won't take orders from you, but he won't abandon you either (Donnie did that to them in this show, to go save April, and this is one of the reasons I don't think he's leadership material in this incarnation. Can't just abandon your brothers and the call of duty because your chick may or may not need rescuing.

[87tmntfan]

No I don't think they should. I like how the always get along.
Plus I don't really like how Leo and raph always have to fight about so mthing.

[victory_angel]

The way described it though in the behind the scenes interview at comic con is they had trouble talking about it because they didn't want to spoil what happens. So that means it's going to be a big event. That was actually the first question in the interview.

They just vaguely said that Donatello has to make some big decisions and step up to look after the family. And I would believe Donatello standing up to Leo of all people would need to be big. Majority of the time, he's stood by Leo's side even if he didn't agree with every decision Leo has made.

[Electric]

The way described it though in the behind the scenes interview at comic con is they had trouble talking about it because they didn't want to spoil what happens. So that means it's going to be a big event. That was actually the first question in the interview.

They just vaguely said that Donatello has to make some big decisions and step up to look after the family. And I would believe Donatello standing up to Leo of all people would need to be big. Majority of the time, he's stood by Leo's side even if he didn't agree with every decision Leo has made.

Exactly. Donnie normally stays out of the arguing between Leo and raph, usually just going along with whatever, like when raph was leader for an episode, or when leo sent raph away. So for Donnie to speak up against Leo is big, and I'm sure they'll make it that way.

The way I'm picturing it, based on the trailer:

Leo Donnie and Mikey are the 3 turtles in the lair when the kraang invade, they get out, splinter does not. Once they're in Aprils apartment, Leo wants to go find splinter, but Donnie sees that the invasion is putting so many people at risk and they need to take care of that first, causing Leo to go off on his own

[ssjup81]

I don't think so. I just don't think Raph wants to be told what to do. There are leaders in the world, followers in the world, and those who choose their own paths where they are neither. Raph is the third option. He won't take orders from you, but he won't abandon you either (Donnie did that to them in this show, to go save April, and this is one of the reasons I don't think he's leadership material in this incarnation. Can't just abandon your brothers and the call of duty because your chick may or may not need rescuing.That's more of a season 1 thing, isn't it? For Target April O'Neil, the fact that she called him shows why his reaction was completely understandable. She had to have been in serious trouble to call after saying she didn't want to see him and the other three again. I also feel that Donnie has faith in his brothers, who can take care of themselves. Also, the argument would hold if this was consistently done by Donnie, which it hasn't.

That aside, I do feel that Donnie has good leadership qualities.Exactly. Donnie normally stays out of the arguing between Leo and raph, usually just going along with whatever, like when raph was leader for an episode, or when leo sent raph away. So for Donnie to speak up against Leo is big, and I'm sure they'll make it that way.

The way I'm picturing it, based on the trailer:

Leo Donnie and Mikey are the 3 turtles in the lair when the kraang invade, they get out, splinter does not. Once they're in Aprils apartment, Leo wants to go find splinter, but Donnie sees that the invasion is putting so many people at risk and they need to take care of that first, causing Leo to go off on his ownYeah I noticed that too in that interview. Donnie is usually pretty neutral. I'm dying to know about these "big decisions" and your scenario is a good one.

[victory_angel]

The way I'm picturing it, based on the trailer:

Leo Donnie and Mikey are the 3 turtles in the lair when the kraang invade, they get out, splinter does not. Once they're in Aprils apartment, Leo wants to go find splinter, but Donnie sees that the invasion is putting so many people at risk and they need to take care of that first, causing Leo to go off on his own

This. My thoughts exactly. Leo would know the Kraang are going to bring Splinter to the Shredder so he would feel that Donnie doesn't care about their Sensei.

Well in truth Donnie is just as worried about Splinter as everyone else, but with the invasion even if they could rescue Splinter. Splinter would have told the life of one person is not as significant as the lives of many people.

That's more of a season 1 thing, isn't it? For Target a April O'Neil, the fact that she called him, and his reaction was completely understandable. She had to be in serious trouble to call after saying she didn't want to him and the other three again. I also feel that Donnie has faith in his brothers, who can take care of themselves.

I agree, though that scene would have been better to have Leo let Donnie go rather then lamely saying "We need you to!"

I mean even he would have understood that April wouldn't have called them if she wasn't in serious danger.

[ssjup81]

Oh, Leo can be full of himself sometimes. Remember in Shellacne, when Mikey asked him if he ever had zits, and Leo was actually very vain about "Oh no, never!":lol:That was more of an insensitive, honest reaction, not him being cocky or full of himself. It's like in the Slash ep. Donnie was sad over Raph....

Donnie: It's my fault Raph's mad.
Leo: No it's not...well yes it is partially...

Personally, whenever Leo does this, I find it hilarious because he sucks at comforting people because of his honesty at times. The comforting people thing is Mikey and, to an extent, Donnie's department I would think.

Also, as it was pointed out, neither Leo nor Donnie teased Mikey nor was it implied that they did. Only Raph teased him.

[JTH]

I agree, though that scene would have been better to have Leo let Donnie go rather then lamely saying "We need you to!"

I mean even he would have understood that April wouldn't have called them if she wasn't in serious danger.
But as the leader, Leo believed that Donnie going on his own was a bad idea, as it would hurt both sides and put them all in trouble. Plus, just recently coming off "Follow the Leader", Leo knew that fighting the foot or Kraang alone would put him and/or April in danger.

[ssjup81]

But as the leader, Leo believed that Donnie going on his own was a bad idea, as it would hurt both sides and put them all in trouble. Plus, just recently coming off "Follow the Leader", Leo knew that fighting the foot or Kraang alone would put him and/or April in danger.
That would've definitely caused a clash between them if Leo had told him not to go...and she definitely would've been killed if he hadn't have shown up when he had. At that moment he felt April's desperate call was of higher priority than the current Kraang issue.

[Electric]

This. My thoughts exactly. Leo would know the Kraang are going to bring Splinter to the Shredder so he would feel that Donnie doesn't care about their Sensei.

Well in truth Donnie is just as worried about Splinter as everyone else, but with the invasion even if they could rescue Splinter. Splinter would have told the life of one person is not as significant as the lives of many people.



exactly

they all care about splinter, but leo out of all of them would be the most blinded by the situation and worrying about him. so while donnie is thinking logically, about needing to save the lives of so many people, and hoping that splinter can hang on long enough for them, leos so concerned that he feels donnie just doesnt care enough.

this especially seems fitting for this donnie, as he appears to have the most concern for the well-being of others in this incarnation. not that the others dont, but donnies stands out.

like the very first episode, where splinter told them they couldnt go back up for another year, it was donnie who spoke up and said that they needed to because people were kidnapped. i know people will think "its just because he likes april" but in that moment, he hadnt even really met april, didnt know if they would be friends, all he knew was that she had looked to him for help, as he explained, and that her, and her dad, needed help

[Warhorse]

That was more of an insensitive, honest reaction, not him being cocky or full of himself. It's like in the Slash ep. Donnie was sad over Raph....

Donnie: It's my fault Raph's mad.
Leo: No it's not...well yes it is partially...

Personally, whenever Leo does this, I find it hilarious because he sucks at comforting people because of his honesty at times. The comforting people thing is Mikey and, to an extent, Donnie's department I would think.

Also, as it was pointed out, neither Leo nor Donnie teased Mikey nor was it implied that they did. Only Raph teased him.

Sorry, disagree, that was a pure vain thing with Leo and he was being cocky and full of himself. Reminds me of some cheerleaders back in school.

[JTH]

Sorry, disagree, that was a pure vain thing with Leo and he was being cocky and full of himself. Reminds me of some cheerleaders back in school.
It reminds me of Captain Ryan from Space Heroes, who Leo inspired to be like. ;)

[ssjup81]

Sorry, disagree, that was a pure vain thing with Leo and he was being cocky and full of himself. Reminds me of some cheerleaders back in school.I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Leo is very honest in this series and has had a foot in mouth response to things, like in the Slash ep with Donnie I mentioned.

To me, being full of yourself is when you kind of declare yourself the best at things...openly. Outside of the Mousers ep where he and Raph were acting in this way, I just don't see it. He even doubts his leadership ability at times and even though he faced that fear, it didn't go away. A cocky person wouldn't doubt himself.

[Warhorse]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Leo is very honest in this series and has had a foot in mouth response to things, like in the Slash ep with Donnie I mentioned.

To me, being full of yourself is when you kind of declare yourself the best at things...openly. Outside of the Mousers ep where he and Raph were acting in this way, I just don't see it. He even doubts his leadership ability at times and even though he faced that fear, it didn't go away. A cocky person wouldn't doubt himself.

I don't remember him doubting himself. Sorry, Leo just comes across as cocky to me. I liked how he was in 2k3 a bit more. One episode that I think was funny was when he was trying to order the guys to cross a wire to get passed him, and Raph, Donnie and Mikey easily came up with a plan to do that, and he was getting all ticked off about that.

[Electric]

I don't remember him doubting himself. Sorry, Leo just comes across as cocky to me. I liked how he was in 2k3 a bit more. One episode that I think was funny was when he was trying to order the guys to cross a wire to get passed him, and Raph, Donnie and Mikey easily came up with a plan to do that, and he was getting all ticked off about that.

well that was because he said to only use traditional fighting or something like that.

mikey danced
donnie threw things
raph just bulled through him

but ill give you, leo has a few cocky moments in this series. and i like that. it shows hes still a teen, trying to be a leader while learning to be humble, and on the flip side, learning to be confident in his abilities

[ssjup81]

He's sometimes shown questioning his ability as leader and has asked if he was cut out for it. Fungus Humungus dealt with that and he even admitted to Splinter that he faced the fear, but it was still there.well that was because he said to only use traditional fighting or something like that.

mikey danced
donnie threw things
raph just bulled through him

but ill give you, leo has a few cocky moments in this series. and i like that. it shows hes still a teen, trying to be a leader while learning to be humble, and on the flip side, learning to be confident in his abilitiesYeah. He did say traditional fighting, meaning what they learned from Splinter. He's a traditionalist and the most serious of Splinter's students, like in every incarnation.

[JTH]

I'm definetly interested in how this will turn out, I still think the Dimension X story isn't a 2 parter and episode 23 is a Donnie centric episode. With the Karai mutation the previous episode, I wouldn't think Donnie would take kindly of the responsibility of Karai's mutation thrown at his feet to fix.

It could be a good set up to the finale, where Donnie takes it like "I'm not the leader, why do I have to deal with all these responsibilities myself."

Then Leo gets taken out and now Donnie does have to deal with those responsibilities and learn to accept them.

[victory_angel]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Leo is very honest in this series and has had a foot in mouth response to things, like in the Slash ep with Donnie I mentioned.

To me, being full of yourself is when you kind of declare yourself the best at things...openly. Outside of the Mousers ep where he and Raph were acting in this way, I just don't see it. He even doubts his leadership ability at times and even though he faced that fear, it didn't go away. A cocky person wouldn't doubt himself.

Well Donnie was upset because he had unintentionally nearly blown up the lair and put his loved ones in harms way.

The difference between this time and the first time Donnie nearly blew up the lair. Is the first time is he had converted the remains of is bo staff into a missile launcher which proceeds to go off in the lair. Even though he said that wasn't supposed to happen he at least would have known that potentially could happen so naturally Donnie would have had to clean up the damages on his own.

In Slash and Destroy, Donnie did not know that reaction would have happened. If he had he would have put precautions in place. And afterward he didn't deny any responsibility for it.

And yes, everyone had reason to be upset. Raph because Spike was nearly killed but his actions were blowing the situation out of proportion.

Leo was also angry with Donnie, but he understood it was an accident and it easily could have been something worse. If someone like say Mikey had been injured, Leo would more then likely have been on Donnie's case about it.

And of course there is that moment where Raph comes in and rants to Splinter about how this is Donnie's mess and he's the one who should clean it. Which Donnie is show listening to with a look that just screams that he wishes he could just disappear.

And later when Donnie says that yes it's his fault that Raph's mad, Leo comments with.
"It's not you...we'll it's partly you."

Though later when Leo sees what had happened to Donnie and Mikey after he abandons them to complete the mission. He has a look of self-directed disgust on his face.


I don't remember him doubting himself. Sorry, Leo just comes across as cocky to me. I liked how he was in 2k3 a bit more. One episode that I think was funny was when he was trying to order the guys to cross a wire to get passed him, and Raph, Donnie and Mikey easily came up with a plan to do that, and he was getting all ticked off about that.

When Donnie steps on to the wire though Leo smiles as if saying "I know this brother will obey me."

I'm definetly interested in how this will turn out, I still think the Dimension X story isn't a 2 parter and episode 23 is a Donnie centric episode. With the Karai mutation the previous episode, I wouldn't think Donnie would take kindly of the responsibility of Karai's mutation thrown at his feet to fix.

It could be a good set up to the finale, where Donnie takes it like "I'm not the leader, why do I have to deal with all these responsibilities myself."

Then Leo gets taken out and now Donnie does have to deal with those responsibilities and learn to accept them.

Or possibly "Why can't Leo realizes he's not thinking about the team?"

[Leofan26]

Oh look, another Raph fan trying to make Leo look bad. I've been seeing a lot of this as of late from Raph fans, oh of course some complain about Donnie's screen time taking up too much now which is a first but...

It's funny how some Raph fans complain about Leo's ego when his fear is about loosing his family and friends in missions, yet when Raph does it it's peachy cuz that's in his character. I was annoyed with his character a lot in the 2003 series due to this.

Any one remember the 2007 film? That said it all.
Don't act like Raph is an Angel in all this k? Double standards, sheesh!

Sorry if I sound annoyed, like I've said I've been seeing this Leo bashing a lot from few Raph fans in the Nick series section. I said few cuz I know not all Raph fans feel this way.

I just had to speak up a bit here, continue on though.

Edit;

I'm really looking forward to Leo and Donnie's clash though to stay a bit on topic, it's different. Normally it happens between Leo and Raph in the newer series. I hope they have an emotional make up scene though in the end, I could see it at the start of season three after the attack :D

[victory_angel]

Edit;

I'm really looking forward to Leo and Donnie's clash though to stay a bit on topic, it's different. Normally it happens between Leo and Raph in the newer series. I hope they have an emotional make up scene though in the end, I could see it at the start of season three after the attack :D

I agree. There should be a heart to heart talk between Donnie and Leo when all is said and done. Even if it's just Leo telling Donnie he's proud of him for looking after the team.

[victory_angel]

Since the dispute between Donnie and Leo is pretty much confirmed. Any speculations for the aftermath.

Donnie: I can see blaming himself about Leo's predicament. I mean what he wanted was for Leo to think about and listen to them...to his brothers for a change. But even then he wouldn't want Leo to get hurt because of it. So I can see him trying to lead the family the best he can, but it always feels to him at least like everyone expecting him to be exactly like Leo. And the fact is, he isn't Leo.

Raph: I can see in two ways. When he's upset he lashes out at the things and people around him. Such as in Slash and Destroy where he is harping on Donnie for nearly killing Spike, or in Wormquake when he was telling Leo it was his fault that Donnie, April, and Casey were trapped in that gateway dimension.

So I can see a probability of Raph lashing out at Donnie because of what happened to Leo. Or giving Donnie a hard time because he's not Leo. And then later having Raph realizes that giving Donnie a hard time is not going to help matters.

The second way is what I hope they do is that Raph tries to be an understanding ear so that way if Donnie feels like he's breaking down because of his guilt for Leo's condition and the burden of leadership becomes to hard for him to carry. Raph could be there to comfort him and tell him that he's been doing a good job so far.

Mikey: I would see being worried about Leo, but I think he'd try and keep everyone happy or keep a sense of the positive that Leo would wake up once more. He is upset because of the loss of the lair, but so long as he has his brothers, father, and friends beside him he's home.

If Raph is abrasive towards Donnie, I can see Mikey telling Raph he's out of line or trying to comfort Donnie by saying "Raph didn't mean it." After all Mikey was probably there for the fight between Leo and Donnie and while he's not the brightest bulb in the group, even he would know that the two level headed brothers being at each others throats is serious.

Splinter: (If he's there) I see him tending to Leo's injuries and keeping vigil over him much of the time.

It could also be possible that he is separated from his sons again. Maybe seeking out a new lair for them, and since one is less easily tracked then five, he has his sons travel to where they will be safe and able to recover. And one of the steps of growing up is that they need to learn to experience life without Splinter around and learn to rely on each other since they are going to live many years beyond him.

A highly doubtful but still possible scenario: Splinter is killed or supposedly killed off by the Shredder, thus forcing the Turtles to experience life without their fathers guidance for the first time.

Leo: I think he would wake up from his coma around the end of the second episode. He would have a moment at the end where he and Donnie talk, and Leo admits he was wrong and he should have listened to his brothers more. Particularly to him.

Leo would be suffering from Acute Stress Disorder for an episode or so. But he is able to get over it and rally his family for the return to New York.

April: Obviously there with them. Maybe she writes to her father about how things are and how the Turtles are dealing the with drastic changes in their lives.

[Rooish]

Who exactly is Donnie going to be the leader of? Mikey and April?

[ssjup81]

Who exactly is Donnie going to be the leader of? Mikey and April?The team while Leo is out of commission.

[Rooish]

It looks like Raph and Casey are separated throughout.

[ssjup81]

It looks like Raph and Casey are separated throughout.After they are all reunited and Leo is knocked out, Donnie will be the one in charge, I'm assuming.

[victory_angel]

After they are all reunited and Leo is knocked out, Donnie will be the one in charge, I'm assuming.

Or Donnie's in-charge of April and Mikey while they locate Raph and help stop the invasion. After they reunite with Raph and Casey, Raph thinks he's leader until Mikey points out Donnie's leader. They defeat the Kraang, save Splinter from the Shredder, then when they are regrouped at April's place to figure out how to find Leo, he is tossed in through the window.

[ssjup81]

Or Donnie's in-charge of April and Mikey while they locate Raph and help stop the invasion. After they reunite with Raph and Casey, Raph thinks he's leader until Mikey points out Donnie's leader. They defeat the Kraang, save Splinter from the Shredder, then when they are regrouped at April's place to figure out how to find Leo, he is tossed in through the window.Or this. :D

[Vicky82]

Since the dispute between Donnie and Leo is pretty much confirmed. Any speculations for the aftermath.

Donnie: I can see blaming himself about Leo's predicament. I mean what he wanted was for Leo to think about and listen to them...to his brothers for a change. But even then he wouldn't want Leo to get hurt because of it. So I can see him trying to lead the family the best he can, but it always feels to him at least like everyone expecting him to be exactly like Leo. And the fact is, he isn't Leo.

Raph: I can see in two ways. When he's upset he lashes out at the things and people around him. Such as in Slash and Destroy where he is harping on Donnie for nearly killing Spike, or in Wormquake when he was telling Leo it was his fault that Donnie, April, and Casey were trapped in that gateway dimension.

So I can see a probability of Raph lashing out at Donnie because of what happened to Leo. Or giving Donnie a hard time because he's not Leo. And then later having Raph realizes that giving Donnie a hard time is not going to help matters.

The second way is what I hope they do is that Raph tries to be an understanding ear so that way if Donnie feels like he's breaking down because of his guilt for Leo's condition and the burden of leadership becomes to hard for him to carry. Raph could be there to comfort him and tell him that he's been doing a good job so far.

Mikey: I would see being worried about Leo, but I think he'd try and keep everyone happy or keep a sense of the positive that Leo would wake up once more. He is upset because of the loss of the lair, but so long as he has his brothers, father, and friends beside him he's home.

If Raph is abrasive towards Donnie, I can see Mikey telling Raph he's out of line or trying to comfort Donnie by saying "Raph didn't mean it." After all Mikey was probably there for the fight between Leo and Donnie and while he's not the brightest bulb in the group, even he would know that the two level headed brothers being at each others throats is serious.

Splinter: (If he's there) I see him tending to Leo's injuries and keeping vigil over him much of the time.

It could also be possible that he is separated from his sons again. Maybe seeking out a new lair for them, and since one is less easily tracked then five, he has his sons travel to where they will be safe and able to recover. And one of the steps of growing up is that they need to learn to experience life without Splinter around and learn to rely on each other since they are going to live many years beyond him.

A highly doubtful but still possible scenario: Splinter is killed or supposedly killed off by the Shredder, thus forcing the Turtles to experience life without their fathers guidance for the first time.

Leo: I think he would wake up from his coma around the end of the second episode. He would have a moment at the end where he and Donnie talk, and Leo admits he was wrong and he should have listened to his brothers more. Particularly to him.

Leo would be suffering from Acute Stress Disorder for an episode or so. But he is able to get over it and rally his family for the return to New York.

April: Obviously there with them. Maybe she writes to her father about how things are and how the Turtles are dealing the with drastic changes in their lives.

I think the aftermath of season 2 will effect the turtles in different ways psychologically which will lead to the vision quest in season 3.

I think your almost spot on but I think it's Mikey who's going to suffer from Acute Stress Disorder (or PTSD) not Leo because don't forget Mikey gets stuck in Dimension X on his own for months, witnesses the lair invaded and destroyed, gets seperated from Splinter and has to leave his home (probably leaves ICK behind), Witnesses Leo and Donnie have a big arguement (they could end up in a scuffle too) and Leo takes off. Then he witnesses a badly hurt Leo come crashing through the window.

Also there are other bad moments Mikey has gone through in season 2

Invasion of the Squirrelnoids - Neally killed and it caused him to have a fear of Squirrels
Mikey Get's Shellacne - Neally explodes
Slash and Destroy - Getting beat up twice by Slash
Fungus Humungous - Deals with his fear
The Manhatten Project - Tiger Claw hurts him
The Wrath of Tiger Claw - Tiger Claw hurts him again
Vengeance is Mine - Rahzar hurts him and then later witnesses Karai getting mutated
Of Rats and Men - Almost attacked by Splinter
Metalhead Rewired (I noticed he doesn't liked being locked up and he gets panicky, I think it also happened in another episode)

[victory_angel]

I think the aftermath of season 2 will effect the turtles in different ways psychologically which will lead to the vision quest in season 3.

I think your almost spot on but I think it's Mikey who's going to suffer from Acute Stress Disorder (or PTSD) not Leo because don't forget Mikey gets stuck in Dimension X on his own for months, witnesses the lair invaded and destroyed, gets seperated from Splinter and has to leave his home (probably leaves ICK behind), Witnesses Leo and Donnie have a big arguement (they could end up in a scuffle too) and Leo takes off. Then he witnesses a badly hurt Leo come crashing through the window.

Also there are other bad moments Mikey has gone through in season 2

Invasion of the Squirrelnoids - Neally killed and it caused him to have a fear of Squirrels
Mikey Get's Shellacne - Neally explodes
Slash and Destroy - Getting beat up twice by Slash
Fungus Humungous - Deals with his fear
The Manhatten Project - Tiger Claw hurts him
The Wrath of Tiger Claw - Tiger Claw hurts him again
Vengeance is Mine - Rahzar hurts him and then later witnesses Karai getting mutated
Of Rats and Men - Almost attacked by Splinter
Metalhead Rewired (I noticed he doesn't liked being locked up and he gets panicky, I think it also happened in another episode)


I agree Mikey may get some emotional issues which was one of the reasons why I said that if Raph becomes abrasive to Donnie. I.E. Blaming Donnie for what happened to Leo, or Comparing Donnie's leadership to Leo's. I can see Mikey telling Raph off about how he's not being fair to Donnie.

Also Mikey has a habit of coping with serious situations by pretending they aren't as serious as they actually are. So I can see him pretending that Leo is only suffering from a cold and not the 'he's at deaths door'

[Warhorse]

I agree Mikey may get some emotional issues which was one of the reasons why I said that if Raph becomes abrasive to Donnie. I.E. Blaming Donnie for what happened to Leo, or Comparing Donnie's leadership to Leo's. I can see Mikey telling Raph off about how he's not being fair to Donnie.

Also Mikey has a habit of coping with serious situations by pretending they aren't as serious as they actually are. So I can see him pretending that Leo is only suffering from a cold and not the 'he's at deaths door'

I take it you don't like Raphael at all, do you? Every chance you get you have to take a jab at him, Have you ever defended anything he's done, or do you just paint scenarios in your head where he is just this awful character that is just there to take the butt of jokes from the other brothers?

[victory_angel]

I take it you don't like Raphael at all, do you? Every chance you get you have to take a jab at him, Have you ever defended anything he's done, or do you just paint scenarios in your head where he is just this awful character that is just there to take the butt of jokes from the other brothers?

Actually I say in a post on a scenario that I hope nick would take instead of emotionally lashing out at Donnie. I admit Raph isn't my favorite and I know he has a stronger fortitude then being the angry guy all the time. But he has been known to emotionally take things out on people when someone who matters to him is injured or threatened.

The second way is what I hope they do is that Raph tries to be an understanding ear so that way if Donnie feels like he's breaking down because of his guilt for Leo's condition and the burden of leadership becomes to hard for him to carry. Raph could be there to comfort him and tell him that he's been doing a good job so far.

[Warhorse]

Actually I say in a post on a scenario that I hope nick would take instead of emotionally lashing out at Donnie. I admit Raph isn't my favorite and I know he has a stronger fortitude then being the angry guy all the time. But he has been known to emotionally take things out on people when someone who matters to him is injured or threatened.

But Raph has shown to be understanding. He understood what Mikey was going through when Bradford, Mikey's hero, ended up being a complete dick, and gave him a little pep talk. In the first episode, he seemed to be the one brother trying to keep the rest close by whenever something caught their attention. And heck, you even have this adorable scene
M_0WE8Kv2DM where Raph saved Donny from sticking his foot in his mouth any further than he already has.

I know Raph has his faults and his temper, but he's not a bad guy or brother. In fact, I think he's a pretty swell brother considering.

[victory_angel]

But Raph has shown to be understanding. He understood what Mikey was going through when Bradford, Mikey's hero, ended up being a complete dick, and gave him a little pep talk. In the first episode, he seemed to be the one brother trying to keep the rest close by whenever something caught their attention. And heck, you even have this adorable scene
M_0WE8Kv2DM where Raph saved Donny from sticking his foot in his mouth any further than he already has.

I know Raph has his faults and his temper, but he's not a bad guy or brother. In fact, I think he's a pretty swell brother considering.

Yeah, I don't deny that there are situations where Raph is the best friend you can have. But in those situations they didn't have a brother at deaths door.

What I'm saying is it would be easy to have Raph blame Donnie for Leo's situation is because Donnie is the one who gets in the tiff with Leo. And Leo runs off on his own. So in a way Donnie is responsible for Leo getting hurt.

However I hope Nick doesn't go that route because Donnie will be beating himself up enough as it is. So I hope Raph is portrayed as caring presence after the exodus.

[Warhorse]

Yeah, I don't deny that there are situations where Raph is the best friend you can have. But in those situations they didn't have a brother at deaths door.

What I'm saying is it would be easy to have Raph blame Donnie for Leo's situation is because Donnie is the one who gets in the tiff with Leo. And Leo runs off on his own. So in a way Donnie is responsible for Leo getting hurt.

However I hope Nick doesn't go that route because Donnie will be beating himself up enough as it is. So I hope Raph is portrayed as caring presence after the exodus.

Huh? Did you not watch Slash and Destroy where Raph put himself between his brothers and Slash, when their lives were indeed in danger? He chose to let Slash die to save his brothers. He may have been upset with what happened to Slash, but he never blamed his brothers for that. And where are you getting this Donny and Leo tiff and this is what causes the Leo one shot?

[victory_angel]

Huh? Did you not watch Slash and Destroy where Raph put himself between his brothers and Slash, when their lives were indeed in danger? He chose to let Slash die to save his brothers. He may have been upset with what happened to Slash, but he never blamed his brothers for that. And where are you getting this Donny and Leo tiff and this is what causes the Leo one shot?

This is apparently the log line for the finally episode.

Leo and Donnie disagree about their plan to stop the Kraang invasion; Donnie must step up as a leader when Leo makes a mistake and is separated from the team.

[Warhorse]

This is apparently the log line for the finally episode.

Leo and Donnie disagree about their plan to stop the Kraang invasion; Donnie must step up as a leader when Leo makes a mistake and is separated from the team.

It says nothing about Donny being responsible for anything. Leo is probably going to go find Karai, and that's when he gets caught, nothing to do with Donny at all.

[ssjup81]

Huh? Did you not watch Slash and Destroy where Raph put himself between his brothers and Slash, when their lives were indeed in danger? He chose to let Slash die to save his brothers. He may have been upset with what happened to Slash, but he never blamed his brothers for that. And where are you getting this Donny and Leo tiff and this is what causes the Leo one shot?I'm under the impression that Leo and Don will have a confrontation or argument which will run Leo out of the lair as well to cool off...especially if the cause is Karai and I like the idea of it paralleling what Leo told Donnie regarding Timothy in Mutagen Man Unleashed.

Sometimes Raph is a bit emotional and acts on his emotions first before being rational sometimes, unless it's something obvious that must be done, like in Slash's debut ep and how he chose his brothers over Slash. If Leo storms off to cool off (like he did in New Girl in Town) and gets hurt/attacked by the Shredder, Raph could, indeed, put the blame on Donnie for that and make it known that he feels that way. For the most part, Raph can be pretty open with his feelings or blunt (like in the "sadorable" ep, but it was so cute how he tried to make up for it at the end).

In the Wormquake episode, he was about to get on Leo and about to blame him over Donnie, April, and Casey being trapped in the dimensional gateway before being interrupted by the quake. I could see Raph doing that to Donnie, if the disagreement, spat, whatever, between Leo and Donnie runs Leo off.

[Warhorse]

I'm under the impression that Leo and Don will have a confrontation or argument which will run Leo out of the lair as well to cool off...especially if the cause is Karai and I like the idea of it paralleling what Leo told Donnie regarding Timothy in Mutagen Man Unleashed.

Sometimes Raph is a bit emotional and acts on his emotions first before being rational sometimes, unless it's something obvious that must be done, like in Slash's debut ep and how he chose his brothers over Slash. If Leo storms off to cool off (like he did in New Girl in Town) and gets hurt/attacked by the Shredder, Raph could, indeed, put the blame on Donnie for that and make it known that he feels that way. For the most part, Raph can be pretty open with his feelings or blunt (like in the "sadorable" ep, but it was so cute how he tried to make up for it at the end).

In the Wormquake episode, he was about to get on Leo and about to blame him over Donnie, April, and Casey being trapped in the dimensional gateway before being interrupted by the quake. I could see Raph doing that to Donnie, if the disagreement, spat, whatever, between Leo and Donnie runs Leo off.

I just can't see Donny running off anyone. Leo simply isn't a push over, and Donny is too much of a pacifist. The pacifist part is why I can't buy him to be a leader. Doesn't matter how smart you are, it takes a certain aggressor type to be a leader in a military type scenario.

[ssjup81]

I just can't see Donny running off anyone. Leo simply isn't a push over, and Donny is too much of a pacifist. The pacifist part is why I can't buy him to be a leader. Doesn't matter how smart you are, it takes a certain aggressor type to be a leader in a military type scenario.I feel Donnie could be a good leader if put into the situation. He kept his head in the game when he, Raph, and Mikey were going up against Snakeweed, even after Mikey was knocked out. Raph was panicking, Donnie was planning and temporarily incapacitated Snakeweed while he ordered Raph to grab Mikey so that they could escape.

Donnie in this incarnation is a bit more....aggressive compared to previous ones, imo. I feel that he and Leo could have an argument and clash or maybe he finally gets tired of being a pushover and walked all over. I don't even feel he's really all that much of a pacifist. If anything, I'd say he's not very confrontational. He wanted to beat up Dr. Rockwell. I thought it was funny when he said he'd be sure to think happy thoughts the next time he's pounding him.

If Leo has a plan to go after Karai and Donnie sees a flaw and actually speaks up for once, this could lead to a tiff between the two as they generally and usually get along as they also usually see eye-to-eye on things. Leo could even be like, "You know what, forget it. I'll go on my own" and take off.

[victory_angel]

I think the argument happens after the Turtles evacuate the lair. Raph isn't there because he's out with Casey.

Leo's main flaw in this incarnation is he doesn't always think about or listen to his brothers sometimes. He just does what he wants and expects the others to follow which makes it harder for the other Turtles to willingly go along with him.

For example in Slash and Destroy, Leo runs off to go get the mutagen himself leaving Donnie and Mikey behind without any thought towards them.

In previous incarnations Donnie has almost always been the loyalist one to Leo, his one unquestioning soldier. However in the previous incarnations Leo had valued Don's insight so he's earned Donnie's loyalty. In this incarnation, Donnie's loyalty to Leo has become rather strained as of late. Leo has shown he he rather narrow minded when it comes to Donnie's ingenuity. He would accept any technological or scientific pursuits Donnie may have if he feels they are of use. Such as the Shellraiser, the gliders, and the Retromutagen. Otherwise Leo sees it as a distraction and can be rather dismissive and patronizing about Donnie's inventions.

In a few of the episodes with the Pulverizer, Leo's had these moments where he looks as though he is clearly asking "Donnie, what is wrong with you?" such as when Donnie takes off in the Stealth bike.

[Warhorse]

I feel Donnie could be a good leader if put into the situation. He kept his head in the game when he, Raph, and Mikey were going up against Snakeweed, even after Mikey was knocked out. Raph was panicking, Donnie was planning and temporarily incapacitated Snakeweed while he ordered Raph to grab Mikey so that they could escape.

Donnie in this incarnation is a bit more....aggressive compared to previous ones, imo. I feel that he and Leo could have an argument and clash or maybe he finally gets tired of being a pushover and walked all over. I don't even feel he's really all that much of a pacifist. If anything, I'd say he's not very confrontational. He wanted to beat up Dr. Rockwell. I thought it was funny when he said he'd be sure to think happy thoughts the next time he's pounding him.

If Leo has a plan to go after Karai and Donnie sees a flaw and actually speaks up for once, this could lead to a tiff between the two as they generally and usually get along as they also usually see eye-to-eye on things. Leo could even be like, "You know what, forget it. I'll go on my own" and take off.

I'm just saying, it's all plot line conveniences for this story to make the whole damn show revolve around Donny, and that's going to stay my opinion until things change. I'm just sick of Donny taking over everyone's storylines. Leo and Raph are supposed to be the headbutters, not Donny and Leo. So now, I guess we're going to get Donny and Raph headbutting when Donny takes over as leader (what if they make Donny leader permanently, Nick owns the show and they can pretty much do whatever they want)

Sorry for the vent. I know it's premature to speculate in this manner before anything is proven yet.

[victory_angel]

I'm just saying, it's all plot line conveniences for this story to make the whole damn show revolve around Donny, and that's going to stay my opinion until things change. I'm just sick of Donny taking over everyone's storylines. Leo and Raph are supposed to be the headbutters, not Donny and Leo. So now, I guess we're going to get Donny and Raph headbutting when Donny takes over as leader (what if they make Donny leader permanently, Nick owns the show and they can pretty much do whatever they want)

Sorry for the vent. I know it's premature to speculate in this manner before anything is proven yet.

They were vague about it in the behind the scenes interview, Ciro actually said there was so much he wanted to say about it, but couldn't because of spoilers. But what he was going to says was Donnie was going step up and take charge of the family.

Normally Donnie doesn't get into disputes with Leo he doesn't always agree with Leo but generally he goes along with what Leo has planned. Raph and Leo are always going to butt heads and they will continue to in other incarnations.

In the past several episodes Leo hasn't been leading the team. It's more like he's doing what he wants regardless of whether or not it puts the team in danger or anyone else in danger. Such as taking Karai to the lair, without considering the probability that she was expecting them to foolishly take them to her to their lair.

And when the other Turtles don't want to follow him he's like "Oh, so I'm only leader unless it's something you don't want to do. Well fine then, I'll go put myself in danger anyway because I'm doing what I want." Which in turn causes the other Turtles too follow him just so he doesn't get himself killed.

The arc we are headed into is Northampton Arc. Donnie commonly assumes the role of leader at this time while Leo is out of commission. This moment where Donnie gets into a dispute with Leo is meant to be an explanation as to how he gets the role. Rather then leaving people thinking "So Donnie is leader now?"

And the dispute will likely be something Leo needs to hear, but doesn't want to hear. Such as if he wants his brothers to follow him, he can't force them to do what he wants all the time. He also needs to listen to them and trust them.

[Warhorse]

They were vague about it in the behind the scenes interview, Ciro actually said there was so much he wanted to say about it, but couldn't because of spoilers. But what he was going to says was Donnie was going step up and take charge of the family.

Normally Donnie doesn't get into disputes with Leo he doesn't always agree with Leo but generally he goes along with what Leo has planned. Raph and Leo are always going to butt heads and they will continue to in other incarnations.

In the past several episodes Leo hasn't been leading the team. It's more like he's doing what he wants regardless of whether or not it puts the team in danger or anyone else in danger. Such as taking Karai to the lair, without considering the probability that she was expecting them to foolishly take them to her to their lair.

And when the other Turtles don't want to follow him he's like "Oh, so I'm only leader unless it's something you don't want to do. Well fine then, I'll go put myself in danger anyway because I'm doing what I want." Which in turn causes the other Turtles too follow him just so he doesn't get himself killed.

The arc we are headed into is Northampton Arc. Donnie commonly assumes the role of leader at this time while Leo is out of commission. This moment where Donnie gets into a dispute with Leo is meant to be an explanation as to how he gets the role. Rather then leaving people thinking "So Donnie is leader now?"

And the dispute will likely be something Leo needs to hear, but doesn't want to hear. Such as if he wants his brothers to follow him, he can't force them to do what he wants all the time. He also needs to listen to them and trust them.

I don't know, this who Leo and Donny headbutting thing reminds me of the headbutting thing with Raph and Leo in the Shredder Strikes and City at War arcs in 2k3. And in both those instances, Leonardo was doing something that the other Turtles were not too shabby about. Heck, even Donny got in Leo's face when he started to call Shredder master.

[JTH]

I'm just saying, it's all plot line conveniences for this story to make the whole damn show revolve around Donny, and that's going to stay my opinion until things change. I'm just sick of Donny taking over everyone's storylines. Leo and Raph are supposed to be the headbutters, not Donny and Leo. So now, I guess we're going to get Donny and Raph headbutting when Donny takes over as leader (what if they make Donny leader permanently, Nick owns the show and they can pretty much do whatever they want)

Sorry for the vent. I know it's premature to speculate in this manner before anything is proven yet.
The 87 cartoon revolved around Mikey and Raph.
The movies revolved around Raph.
The 2K3 revolved around Leo.

Let's not act like no turtle has ever been the star in a show. Don't make Donnie sad, let him have a spotlight in a show for once.

Plus I don't think Donnie will assume the role of leader as much as Mikey, Raph, and April appoint him as leader because they believe he is their only alternative.

[Technogeek29]

I'm just saying, it's all plot line conveniences for this story to make the whole damn show revolve around Donny, and that's going to stay my opinion until things change. I'm just sick of Donny taking over everyone's storylines. Leo and Raph are supposed to be the headbutters, not Donny and Leo. So now, I guess we're going to get Donny and Raph headbutting when Donny takes over as leader (what if they make Donny leader permanently, Nick owns the show and they can pretty much do whatever they want)

Sorry for the vent. I know it's premature to speculate in this manner before anything is proven yet.

Interesting to note. Leo and Raph didn't really fight that much mostly Don and Raph.

[Warhorse]

Interesting to note. Leo and Raph didn't really fight that much mostly Don and Raph.

What are you talking about?

The 87 cartoon revolved around Mikey and Raph.
The movies revolved around Raph.
The 2K3 revolved around Leo.

Let's not act like no turtle has ever been the star in a show. Don't make Donnie sad, let him have a spotlight in a show for once.

Plus I don't think Donnie will assume the role of leader as much as Mikey, Raph, and April appoint him as leader because they believe he is their only alternative.

Raph was the star in the 80's toon? Could have fooled me, it seemed mostly Mikey and Don, but in the end, the whole show was evenly focused. I really never had a beef with the way things were playing out.
Only movies to revolve around Raph were the first one.
SOTO-Donny
III-Mikey
TMNT-Raph and Leo!
the last movie, I bet Mikey got the most lines and Leo got the most fights in that movie, and it was revolving around April more than any of the Turtles.

But, thanks for your opinion man!

As for Donny becoming the leader, I doubt Raph, April or Mikey are going have anything to do with that, it's going to be Splinter's decision. This Splinter seems to not like Raphael and Mikey as much as Leo and Donny, so it's not difficult to see how things pan out.

[ssjup81]

Splinter choosing Donnie to be the temp leader wouldn't surprise me. He's a logical thinker and not as impulsive or unfocused like Raph of Mikey. Leo and Donnie are the "calm" ones (notice their serene colors" while Raph and Mikey are the opposite (hence their fiery, bright colors). That's how I always viewed them anyway and in my head canon, whether it's the toon or the comics, I always viewed Donnie after Leo.The 87 cartoon revolved around Mikey and Raph.
The movies revolved around Raph.
The 2K3 revolved around Leo.

Let's not act like no turtle has ever been the star in a show. Don't make Donnie sad, let him have a spotlight in a show for once.

Plus I don't think Donnie will assume the role of leader as much as Mikey, Raph, and April appoint him as leader because they believe he is their only alternative.Well, movie 1 and the 2k7 movie seemed to focus around Raph (and Leo to an extent) while movie 2 seemed to focus around Donnie and movie 3 Mikey.

I do agree about the OT. Mikey and Raph were the fan favorites. Donny in the OT was a fav of the writers, hence the eps with the sci-fi elements.

[Technogeek29]

What are you talking about?



Raph was the star in the 80's toon? Could have fooled me, it seemed mostly Mikey and Don, but in the end, the whole show was evenly focused. I really never had a beef with the way things were playing out.
Only movies to revolve around Raph were the first one.
SOTO-Donny
III-Mikey
TMNT-Raph and Leo!
the last movie, I bet Mikey got the most lines and Leo got the most fights in that movie, and it was revolving around April more than any of the Turtles.

But, thanks for your opinion man!

As for Donny becoming the leader, I doubt Raph, April or Mikey are going have anything to do with that, it's going to be Splinter's decision. This Splinter seems to not like Raphael and Mikey as much as Leo and Donny, so it's not difficult to see how things pan out.


In the Mirage comics I notice Raphnand Don's relationship was pretty strained. At least Leo and Raph could get along Don would seem to avoid Raph.

[victory_angel]

What are you talking about?



Raph was the star in the 80's toon? Could have fooled me, it seemed mostly Mikey and Don, but in the end, the whole show was evenly focused. I really never had a beef with the way things were playing out.
Only movies to revolve around Raph were the first one.
SOTO-Donny
III-Mikey
TMNT-Raph and Leo!
the last movie, I bet Mikey got the most lines and Leo got the most fights in that movie, and it was revolving around April more than any of the Turtles.

But, thanks for your opinion man!

As for Donny becoming the leader, I doubt Raph, April or Mikey are going have anything to do with that, it's going to be Splinter's decision. This Splinter seems to not like Raphael and Mikey as much as Leo and Donny, so it's not difficult to see how things pan out.

That highly depends on whether Splinter is with them. It is possible the Turtles are forced to leave the city, but Splinter is unable to. The Shredder wants Splinter dead yes. But as long as Splinter knows his sons are free and still alive, then killing him is pointless because Splinter still wins.

And even then Donnie would have established himself as a leader for the most part in Leo's absence, so Splinter wouldn't need to appoint Donnie for it.

[ssjup81]

Raph and Donny in the Mirage comics were completely opposite, hence the strain between them at times. With Leo and Raph it seemed more like sibling rivalry. With Raph and Donny it was more so clashing personalities and also in the comic Donny was quick to point out Raph's illogical decisions.

I guess the same can apply to Leo and Mikey and how their personalities clashed. Leo was serious and disciplined while Mikey was more so laid back and unfocused.

Leo got along with Donny best, imo, and then Raph.
Donny got along best, imo, with Mikey and Leo.
Raph got along best, imo, with Mikey.
Mikey got along best, imo, with Raph and Donny.

[victory_angel]

There is a person on Deviant Art named Gwenlala who has posted symbolic pictures of each of the Turtle pairings. And asks people to give their interpretations in the comments.

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/117/7/7/tmnt__ld_by_gweniala-d4xqzb5.png

This was my interpretation of this:

The two are bound together, because they have a mutual dependence on one another. Donatello has almost always exhibited loyalty to Leonardo that borders on devotional. And Leonardo is also reliant on Donatello's insight and ingenuity in order to effectively get everyone through. Take Donnie out of the equation and Leonardo feels lost.

Gwenlala's response.

Thank you very much for the thought. Yes, this is exactly what I was depicting.

[ssjup81]

I think the aftermath of season 2 will effect the turtles in different ways psychologically which will lead to the vision quest in season 3.

I think your almost spot on but I think it's Mikey who's going to suffer from Acute Stress Disorder (or PTSD) not Leo because don't forget Mikey gets stuck in Dimension X on his own for months, witnesses the lair invaded and destroyed, gets seperated from Splinter and has to leave his home (probably leaves ICK behind), Witnesses Leo and Donnie have a big arguement (they could end up in a scuffle too) and Leo takes off. Then he witnesses a badly hurt Leo come crashing through the window.I find this an interesting theory. I rewatched Metalhead Rewired. He was panicky. I also wondered if this ep was foreshadowing Mikey's being stuck and going to Dimension X later.

[victory_angel]

I find this an interesting theory. I rewatched Metalhead Rewired. He was panicky. I also wondered if this ep was foreshadowing Mikey's being stuck and going to Dimension X later.

Who knows, maybe it's Mikey will be the one who gives Donnie the hard time after Leo is beaten. He has been occasionally known to return blame in hindsight. Such as in "I think his name is Baxter Stockman," When Donnie is getting on Mikey's case about the fact he lost the T-pod. And Mikey says
"This is your fault, you knew I couldn't be trusted with things like that."

Hopefully though, Raph, Mikey,and April would be supportive and try and help Donnie where it's needed until Leo awakens.

[Warhorse]

So, if the writers were to get rid of Raph and Mikey, you think the storylines would work just fine without them there? It's not like the contribute much to the team, or the show as a whole, except just to have them there for fan service.

[ssjup81]

It just hit me...the other time Mikey panicked over being trapped...Wormquake after the portal closed on them.So, if the writers were to get rid of Raph and Mikey, you think the storylines would work just fine without them there? It's not like the contribute much to the team, or the show as a whole, except just to have them there for fan service.Of course they contribute and will probably contribute more, hopefully. There is the Dimension X stories coming up and all these crazy eps dealing with Mikey could have indeed been foreshadowing it. Mikey was even the one to figure out what the Kraang were using the Mutagen for. The more I think about it, the more sense it's starting to make that Mikey is the one to get trapped in Dimension X.

There's also the rumored vision quest after they escape the city, which should lead to some nice character development. To me, Raph and Mikey have nice character eps.

With all that's coming up, I'm going to expect Mikey to be the heart of the group...or the broody one and Raph helping him.

[victory_angel]

So, if the writers were to get rid of Raph and Mikey, you think the storylines would work just fine without them there? It's not like the contribute much to the team, or the show as a whole, except just to have them there for fan service.

I'm not saying Raph and Mikey should be written out of the story. They still have their roles to the team and they still have much to contribute and there are some stories slated for their development. I've even heard that there is going to be a moment where Mikey proves himself to be leader material. I'm saying that each of the Turtles would be dealing with the loss of their child hood home and near death of Leonardo differently.

Donnie will be having to carry the team in Leo's absence, as Leo will likely be in a coma. And if not in a coma certainly in the doldrums about all that has happened. It is possible that he is beating himself up about Leo's condition, because he would be thinking "If only I hand not done this, or if only I hadn't said that Leo wouldn't be fighting for his life right now." And on top of that he could feel like everyone is expecting him to be like Leo or do things the way Leo would have done them. But it's more rather he thinks he should be more like Leo which is stressful to him, because he's not Leo.

We know from the concept art of the Creep that the first episode of season three is titled "Into the woods" and while we don't see the actual clip at comic con there is a moment where the person recording catches the sound of this.

April: *gasp* That's Donnie!

We don't know the context for this moment as and won't know before October. So it's plausible that one of the brother's gives Donnie a hard time or Donnie run's off himself due to the stress of everything. Leading to an encounter with the Creep. And possibly the loss of Donnie's ninja eye mask since he isn't shown wearing it a certain story board and a certain concept art.


Raph would likely be upset about Leo's condition and all that's happened. But
there are several ways he can deal with this.


Raph could be the one keeping constant vigil over Leo while Donnie is looking after the family.

He could be looking after and comforting Mikey while Donnie is keeping vigil over Leo.

He could be upset and will just lash out at everything around him.

He could be there to try and calm Donnie down when he's stressed.


Mikey could be masking his pain and anxiousness with his plucky attitude. Not pulling pranks like he did in Panic in the Sewers, but maybe trying to cheer everyone else up and keep up the hope that Leo would wake up and they'd be a family again.

On the flipside however Mikey could be the brooder because he's worried about Leo and distressed by all that has happened.

[Slade]

There is a person on Deviant Art named Gwenlala who has posted symbolic pictures of each of the Turtle pairings. And asks people to give their interpretations in the comments.

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/117/7/7/tmnt__ld_by_gweniala-d4xqzb5.png
This was my interpretation of this:

The two are bound together, because they have a mutual dependence on one another. Donatello has almost always exhibited loyalty to Leonardo that borders on devotional. And Leonardo is also reliant on Donatello's insight and ingenuity in order to effectively get everyone through. Take Donnie out of the equation and Leonardo feels lost.

Gwenlala's response.

Thank you very much for the thought. Yes, this is exactly what I was depicting.

You study art or something? I would have never gotten that out of that.

[Technogeek29]

I'm not saying Raph and Mikey should be written out of the story. They still have their roles to the team and they still have much to contribute and there are some stories slated for their development. I've even heard that there is going to be a moment where Mikey proves himself to be leader material. I'm saying that each of the Turtles would be dealing with the loss of their child hood home and near death of Leonardo differently.

Donnie will be having to carry the team in Leo's absence, as Leo will likely be in a coma. And if not in a coma certainly in the doldrums about all that has happened. It is possible that he is beating himself up about Leo's condition, because he would be thinking "If only I hand not done this, or if only I hadn't said that Leo wouldn't be fighting for his life right now." And on top of that he could feel like everyone is expecting him to be like Leo or do things the way Leo would have done them. But it's more rather he thinks he should be more like Leo which is stressful to him, because he's not Leo.

We know from the concept art of the Creep that the first episode of season three is titled "Into the woods" and while we don't see the actual clip at comic con there is a moment where the person recording catches the sound of this.

April: *gasp* That's Donnie!

We don't know the context for this moment as and won't know before October. So it's plausible that one of the brother's gives Donnie a hard time or Donnie run's off himself due to the stress of everything. Leading to an encounter with the Creep. And possibly the loss of Donnie's ninja eye mask since he isn't shown wearing it a certain story board and a certain concept art.


Raph would likely be upset about Leo's condition and all that's happened. But
there are several ways he can deal with this.


Raph could be the one keeping constant vigil over Leo while Donnie is looking after the family.

He could be looking after and comforting Mikey while Donnie is keeping vigil over Leo.

He could be upset and will just lash out at everything around him.

He could be there to try and calm Donnie down when he's stressed.


Mikey could be masking his pain and anxiousness with his plucky attitude. Not pulling pranks like he did in Panic in the Sewers, but maybe trying to cheer everyone else up and keep up the hope that Leo would wake up and they'd be a family again.

On the flipside however Mikey could be the brooder because he's worried about Leo and distressed by all that has happened.

You mean like Mirage? Besides the first movie I haven't seen the imfamous punching bag scene ever.

[victory_angel]

You study art or something? I would have never gotten that out of that.

Actually yes. I actually am an artist and I was studying at Academy of Art in San Francisco before I had to quit school due to temporary homelessness.

[ssjup81]

[/B]

You mean like Mirage? Besides the first movie I haven't seen the imfamous punching bag scene ever.I hope they use the punching bag scene for 2k12. It would be nice development for the character.

[Warhorse]

I'm not saying Raph and Mikey should be written out of the story. They still have their roles to the team and they still have much to contribute and there are some stories slated for their development. I've even heard that there is going to be a moment where Mikey proves himself to be leader material. I'm saying that each of the Turtles would be dealing with the loss of their child hood home and near death of Leonardo differently.

Donnie will be having to carry the team in Leo's absence, as Leo will likely be in a coma. And if not in a coma certainly in the doldrums about all that has happened. It is possible that he is beating himself up about Leo's condition, because he would be thinking "If only I hand not done this, or if only I hadn't said that Leo wouldn't be fighting for his life right now." And on top of that he could feel like everyone is expecting him to be like Leo or do things the way Leo would have done them. But it's more rather he thinks he should be more like Leo which is stressful to him, because he's not Leo.

We know from the concept art of the Creep that the first episode of season three is titled "Into the woods" and while we don't see the actual clip at comic con there is a moment where the person recording catches the sound of this.

April: *gasp* That's Donnie!

We don't know the context for this moment as and won't know before October. So it's plausible that one of the brother's gives Donnie a hard time or Donnie run's off himself due to the stress of everything. Leading to an encounter with the Creep. And possibly the loss of Donnie's ninja eye mask since he isn't shown wearing it a certain story board and a certain concept art.


Raph would likely be upset about Leo's condition and all that's happened. But
there are several ways he can deal with this.


Raph could be the one keeping constant vigil over Leo while Donnie is looking after the family.

He could be looking after and comforting Mikey while Donnie is keeping vigil over Leo.

He could be upset and will just lash out at everything around him.

He could be there to try and calm Donnie down when he's stressed.


Mikey could be masking his pain and anxiousness with his plucky attitude. Not pulling pranks like he did in Panic in the Sewers, but maybe trying to cheer everyone else up and keep up the hope that Leo would wake up and they'd be a family again.

On the flipside however Mikey could be the brooder because he's worried about Leo and distressed by all that has happened.

Reading this, I would hope while Leo is healing and they are in Northhampton, I think it would be a really great nod to have Raphael up on a roof top or tall tree, keeping an eye on everything, just like he was in the comics.

[/B]

You mean like Mirage? Besides the first movie I haven't seen the imfamous punching bag scene ever.

I thought he was punching holes in the barn wall in the comics? No? (Which I wouldn't mind seeing Mikey showing a little dark side)