Leo & Donnie-Should they butt heads?

[victory_angel]

In the thread Season 2 Speculations, I gave a speculation as to Donnie and Leo butting heads in this incarnation. And a couple other people agreed.

In previous incarnation Donnie has been one the Turtles who holds the most unquestionable loyalty to Leonardo. However in recent incarnations such as the IDW comic, Donnie and Leo have been shown getting to quite a few spats.

And recent episodes in the 2012 series (mostly actions on Leo's part) have suggested there is some strain placed on their unspoken friendship and that has caused cracks to form. I am not the only person who has noticed this as well.

So if there are issues between them in the up coming season what do you guys think will cause them to happen?

One possibility is with the love triangle that will be forming between Donnie/April/And Casey. And we know for a fact that Donnie and Casey will be adversaries for April's affections. Casey's relationship with the other Turtle's is yet unknown but odds are a bit more on the friendly sided.

Leo is the only turtle who has experienced heartbreak or a something similar to that degree. So I can see him trying to reason with Donnie about his relationship with April so Donnie doesn't get hurt or does something that he regrets.

Donnie on the other hand takes it along the lines of "Give up, you have no chance with April."

[JH24]

I think I need to refresh my memory, but what kind of strains/cracks have developed between Leo and Donnie in the 2012 series? I can't really recall something at the moment. Do you mean regarding Timothy? Or something else?


I wouldn't mind a bit of conflict between Leo and Donnie, but I don't know if this season/story arc would be the best moment for it. Another source of conflict would crowd things more and more regarding plotlines IMO.


I guess I would say, it depends on where this season is going. But a lot would need to happen to not make this conflict feel forced.

[BubblyShell22]

I don't think they should butt heads the way Leo and Raph have done before, but I do think it would be neat to see them have some conflict. I also want to know where they have had some tensions in the first season since I never really noticed it either.

[Bossa Nova]

I say no. Don't get me wrong, I love how those two seem to really rub each other the wrong way in IDW, it's seriously one of my favorite versions of Don since he's not seen as some timid, doormat for everyone to walk all over, while still retaining his charming dorky qualities. But I seriously don't have enough faith in the way Nickelodeon handles relationships to be able to pull off a dispute between Leo and Don that will leave me liking *either* of them by the end of it.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by JH24

Do you mean regarding Timothy? Or something else?

Timothy is on source of contention yes.

Since Leo does think over both Raph and Donnie's points of view before saying "Okay, we'll hear what he has to say. And then we'll get him out of the foot."

But after they heard what he was going to say. Leo says he wants to know more about what the Shredder was planning. And this look of betrayal seems to cross Donnie's face at moment.

I know Leo felt he was making a tactical decision, but he may as well have turned to Donnie and said "You're not important enough to have an opinion."

Another moment where there was some tension is in Episode 15-Alien Agenda. Of the four Turtles, Donnie was the most irritation out of the other about Leo hiding Karai's existence and his crush on her as well.

and when he states "I'm surprised you didn't trust us enough to tell us." Underlying it sounded like he was saying "I'm surprised you didn't trust me enough to talk about it."

[JTH]

Honestly, they should butt heads in all incarnations just based on themselves with what they know in battle.

Leo goes on instincts, Donnie goes on logic. These always lead to different outcomes and thus they should always have those quarrels amongst themselves.

It's also funny, at one of the Power Cons that Ciro took part in, he was asked about all the Star Trek references and brought up something that I had never thought of.

Leo/Donnie/Raph have the Kirk/Spock/McCoy partnership. (Mikey is comic relief like Scotty - minus the Scotch) They all have different takes, and they always butt heads on their takes and their opinions.

Ciro also brought up the Donnie comparison with Spock that while Donnie always thinks and goes by logic and always gets annoyed when his brothers don't have the slightest clue what he's talking about, yet he never knows what to do when his human side and human emotions kick in. (I'm sure you get what that's referring to.)

[Bossa Nova]

I guess that goes by your interpretation of Leo. I've never really seen him as an 'instinct' kinda guy. When it comes to barreling in head first without much thought, that's Raph and Mikey's area. Taking a step back, figuring things out and making a plan is more Leo and Don's course of action. Hell, as leader with four lives in his hands, I would HOPE Leo would realize he has to take the time to think of a strategy and think ahead before rushing stupidly into battle. I DO think when it comes to falling to a fight or flight instinct, maybe Leo triggers a bit faster than Don, but not to the point where it would cause a direct conflict with Don. If Don and Leo are going to have an argument, IDW got it right that it would boil down to personal views and beliefs, as Don is very much a pessimistic realist while Leo a more hopeful, idealist.

[Shark_Blade]

Yes IDW style.

Although we did see them squabbling a few times in the show.

Leo: Force field? Why didn't you tell me there's a force field?

Don: It's because I wanted our mission to fail. OBVIOUSLY I DIDN'T KNOW!

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, and the scene in "The Gauntlet" with the bomb was another one where Leo got upset with him.

[kelligrafie]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

Yes, and the scene in "The Gauntlet" with the bomb was another one where Leo got upset with him.

Let's not forget when Donnie deliberately didn't tell Leo about the transporter forcefield in the final episode because he wanted them to fail the mission.

Jth I liked the Star Trek thing, that's a cool bit of trivia. I guess it should've been more obvious considering Space Heroes is a Trek parody. I knew that the characters within Space Heroes are extreme characterisations of the turtles but I'd never have thought of the Kirk/Spock/McCoy/Scotty parallel with Leo/Donnie/Raph/Mikey.

I just gained a bit more appreciation for the effort involved with the show.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by kelligrafie

Let's not forget when Donnie deliberately didn't tell Leo about the transporter forcefield in the final episode because he wanted them to fail the mission.

That was Donnie being sarcastic because he didn't know about the force field or suspected any possibility of such protections being placed on the portal. And instead of asking Donnie if he had known about it, Leo accusingly demanded to know why Donnie didn't tell him.

[Zachatello00]

Well, they're brothers... so there's that.

I remember one conflict where Leo and Don bite at each other in IDW.

It seemed... forced.

[JH24]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Timothy is on source of contention yes.

Since Leo does think over both Raph and Donnie's points of view before saying "Okay, we'll hear what he has to say. And then we'll get him out of the foot."

But after they heard what he was going to say. Leo says he wants to know more about what the Shredder was planning. And this look of betrayal seems to cross Donnie's face at moment.

I know Leo felt he was making a tactical decision, but he may as well have turned to Donnie and said "You're not important enough to have an opinion."

Another moment where there was some tension is in Episode 15-Alien Agenda. Of the four Turtles, Donnie was the most irritation out of the other about Leo hiding Karai's existence and his crush on her as well.

and when he states "I'm surprised you didn't trust us enough to tell us." Underlying it sounded like he was saying "I'm surprised you didn't trust me enough to talk about it."

I do understand what you mean, but (from your examples and others I read in the thread) I'm not sure how much weight we should give to them. They're also brothers, so any sign of friction can just be a part of their interactions/chemistry. Unless Donnie and Leo are mentally taking notes and remember everything that is being said I can't really imagine this would be enough reason for a future conflict.


It would be interesting though if something does go wrong. Donnie is IMHO the most "human" and kind-hearted of his brothers, if there's ever going to be a situation where Donnie wants to help or save someone while Leo knows there's no other way or sees things differently than I can see pent up frustration being released. In that case, your example with Timothy could come into play.

But any kind of conflict would require quite some work in order not to make it feel forced for the sake of drama.

[Bauer536]

I don't think they should really butt heads. You guys just came up with this thread after what IDW did. In my opinion, that was just an alternative to Leo vs. Raph, and I think it failed. If they ever argue, it needs to be about Timothy, April, certain strategies, or nerdy topics like "Who's a better Captain?" And if they do argue, they need to be specific of their evidence and not just insult one another.

But seriously - they are brothers, yet it doesn't have to be like what IDW did. In fact, I have a feeling Ciro and the guys don't want to base anything off of those comics.

But overall - NO.

[kelligrafie]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

That was Donnie being sarcastic because he didn't know about the force field or suspected any possibility of such protections being placed on the portal. And instead of asking Donnie if he had known about it, Leo accusingly demanded to know why Donnie didn't tell him.

I know this...

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by kelligrafie

Jth I liked the Star Trek thing, that's a cool bit of trivia. I guess it should've been more obvious considering Space Heroes is a Trek parody. I knew that the characters within Space Heroes are extreme characterisations of the turtles but I'd never have thought of the Kirk/Spock/McCoy/Scotty parallel with Leo/Donnie/Raph/Mikey.

Well there is a moment in Star Trek where Spock and Kirk fight each other to the death. The conflict was because a woman that was betrothed to Spock had chosen Kirk has her champion. This is more of an issue between Donnie and Casey however.

But a similar situation could work if the conflict wasn't over a woman (unless you have a huge dispute between Leo and Donnie about Karai I.E. Whether she is beyond saving or not) but rather who has the right to leadership of the team. Unlike Raph who felt he could have been a better leader in "New Girl in Town." Donnie would not directly challenge Leo's right to leadership unless he had absolute reason to call Leo's actions into question. And that could lead to a huge spat between the two of them.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by Bauer536

I don't think they should really butt heads. You guys just came up with this thread after what IDW did. In my opinion, that was just an alternative to Leo vs. Raph, and I think it failed. If they ever argue, it needs to be about Timothy, April, certain strategies, or nerdy topics like "Who's a better Captain?" And if they do argue, they need to be specific of their evidence and not just insult one another.

But seriously - they are brothers, yet it doesn't have to be like what IDW did. In fact, I have a feeling Ciro and the guys don't want to base anything off of those comics.

But overall - NO.

I agree with this.

[RaphAndDonnie]

It's an interesting angle,one that hasn't really been explored yet except in IDW and I think that it could work, if done right.

[tylerdavies]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Leo is the only turtle who has experienced heartbreak or a something similar to that degree. So I can see him trying to reason with Donnie about his relationship with April so Donnie doesn't get hurt or does something that he regrets.

Donnie on the other hand takes it along the lines of "Give up, you have no chance with April."

I can see that happening. It would be cool for the two turtles since they have been the only ones who have had affections for April and Karai respectively.

In terms of butting heads, the only way I can see that happening is if they develop Donnie's 'leader traits' this season and him and Leo but heads in terms of leadership. With Casey and Timothy we know that Donnie is going to have a lot of focus this season - which could allow him to develop as a leader. That would be pretty cool since in the other incarnations he has proved that he could be a leader of the turtles. They would then butt heads when Leo makes a decision that Donnie doesn't agree with or Donnie might make decisions for the team without Leo's consent.

[Bauer536]

Originally Posted by tylerdavies

I can see that happening. It would be cool for the two turtles since they have been the only ones who have had affections for April and Karai respectively.

In terms of butting heads, the only way I can see that happening is if they develop Donnie's 'leader traits' this season and him and Leo but heads in terms of leadership. With Casey and Timothy we know that Donnie is going to have a lot of focus this season - which could allow him to develop as a leader. That would be pretty cool since in the other incarnations he has proved that he could be a leader of the turtles. They would then butt heads when Leo makes a decision that Donnie doesn't agree with or Donnie might make decisions for the team without Leo's consent.

You make it sound like you want Donnie to be leader more than Leo. Maybe if Don proves himself, Leo will appoint him as second-in-command so Don can learn to be an effective leader. Also, I'd like to see Raph also butt heads with Don over leadership. Then it will show it's not the person that bothers him, but it's that he doesn't have the position.