Did the 2012 succeed more than the 2K3 cause it gave fans 'what they wanted?'

[Coola Yagami]

I was watching some eps of the 2002 He-Man cartoon and it reminded me of what some people thought of the TMNT from 2K3. Now any Technodromer knows the TMNT were a comic book first and 2K3 went the comics route and blah blah blah, but for the average joe, the TMNT did begin with the 80's show. Many of them felt alienated by the new show at the time.

Now compared to He-Man where it was basically the same set-up with updated more bad-ass characters and fighting scenes that weren't allowed back in the 80's, the 2K3 TMNT went their own route, and save a shot out here and there, Laird did whatever he could to avoid bringing in Bebop, Rocksteady, the Technodrome etc in a more bad-ass modern take. I remember He-Man fans that were also TMNT fans were somewhat disappointed the 2K3 TMNT wasn't a modern bad-ass version of the old show.

Now we have a new show, with more mutants, things like the Technodrome, Metalhead, the Rat King (in season 1, not like season 4 or whatever), Dimension X, re-naming the Utrons as The Kraang, as well as some of the comedy as well.

I'm not saying the 2K3 wasn't without its success, but is the 2012 knocking it out of the park by giving the fans what they wanted? A modern bad-ass update to their childhood show. The second season is already promising Slash, Mutagen Man and Baxter as a fly. And for the Mirage/2K3 fans we still have things like Karai, Leatherhead and the Purple Dragons. It just looked like this time they guys behind the show really paid attention to what fans wanted to see in a new TMNT show.

[Drose18]

I was watching some eps of the 2002 He-Man cartoon and it reminded me of what some people thought of the TMNT from 2K3. Now any Technodromer knows the TMNT were a comic book first and 2K3 went the comics route and blah blah blah, but for the average joe, the TMNT did begin with the 80's show. Many of them felt alienated by the new show at the time.

Now compared to He-Man where it was basically the same set-up with updated more bad-ass characters and fighting scenes that weren't allowed back in the 80's, the 2K3 TMNT went their own route, and save a shot out here and there, Laird did whatever he could to avoid bringing in Bebop, Rocksteady, the Technodrome etc in a more bad-ass modern take. I remember He-Man fans that were also TMNT fans were somewhat disappointed the 2K3 TMNT wasn't a modern bad-ass version of the old show.

Now we have a new show, with more mutants, things like the Technodrome, Metalhead, the Rat King (in season 1, not like season 4 or whatever), Dimension X, re-naming the Utrons as The Kraang, as well as some of the comedy as well.

I'm not saying the 2K3 wasn't without its success, but is the 2012 knocking it out of the park by giving the fans what they wanted? A modern bad-ass update to their childhood show. The second season is already promising Slash, Mutagen Man and Baxter as a fly. And for the Mirage/2K3 fans we still have things like Karai, Leatherhead and the Purple Dragons. It just looked like this time they guys behind the show really paid attention to what fans wanted to see in a new TMNT show.

No its cuz its on nick and all u 2k12 dickriders don't say I'm wrong

[Technogeek29]

Depends some of the reasons most don't like the 2k3 show are the most dumbest of reasons. Shredder kills his minion's, Raph isn't a jokester, April isn't as hot,This show is ripping off the original cartoon,Its always night time, They should just use the original theme song blah blah moan whine!!!!

Yeah stuff like that shows up more times than you think.

[JTH]

No its cuz its on nick and all u 2k12 dickriders don't say I'm wrong
I'm not gonna say you're wrong, but saying it's only giving credit because of the network it's on is jack*** dumb.

The show succeeds more because it's geared to a younger audience, period. It being on Nick is irrelevant. It's no secret that Ninja Turtles biggest boom took place when it was geared as a kid's show, so that's obviously the direction they took. but the show could have been put on any network that airs Saturday Morning Cartoons to accomplish that.

[Drose18]

Depends some of the reasons most don't like the 2k3 show are the most dumbest of reasons. Shredder kills his minion's, Raph isn't a jokester, April isn't as hot,This show is ripping off the original cartoon,Its always night time, They should just use the original theme song blah blah moan whine!!!!

Yeah stuff like that shows up more times than you think.

FINALLY someone agrees with me!

[CyberCubed]

I know its a cliche to say it, but this thread needs to be locked. The show is more popular simply because its airing on Nick, one of the most popular kids channels. Nick is also promoting the hell out of it.

The 2k3 series aired on an obscure Saturday morning block that didn't even exist all throughout the U.S. on the Fox network. Many people who had Fox didn't even get the 4kids cartoon block.

[Coola Yagami]

I know its a cliche to say it, but this thread needs to be locked. The show is more popular simply because its airing on Nick, one of the most popular kids channels. Nick is also promoting the hell out of it.

The 2k3 series aired on an obscure Saturday morning block that didn't even exist all throughout the U.S. on the Fox network. Many people who had Fox didn't even get the 4kids cartoon block.

You should be locked. I'm glad you're not a mod. Every third thread would be locked and anyone downing the 2K3 show would have been banned.

[Jester]

Yeah if, "This thread should be locked!" is becoming a cliche, it's because you say it on the regular.

[Refractive Reflections]

I think we should ask:
Is the Nick show really catering to the older fans, or is the Nick show simply using particular characters and aspects of the TMNT franchise that worked, and trying it out on a whole new generation that is oblivious to TMNT? Because let's face it, the show is for children, and not for us (teenagers and adults).

Even though this show is using certain TMNT elements that worked, the Nick show has to be very prudent in just how much they allow into it, otherwise the Nick series could be critically viewed as more of a "tribute" series than an "original" series, unlike the situations with the OT and 4Kids were. I'm concerned the Nick series is already using too many OT elements, and this is coming from a big OT fan.

The only strong unique Nick aspects of the show I'm noticing are: most of the characters being teenagers (i.e. April, Karai, and Casey) or having tweenage/teenager personalities (with the Turtles), the abundance of mutants (so soon in the series), and maybe Kraang Prime (I'm sure CyberCubed can debate on this for pages...:lol:).


Many of them felt alienated by the new show at the time.

Now compared to He-Man where it was basically the same set-up with updated more bad-ass characters and fighting scenes that weren't allowed back in the 80's, the 2K3 TMNT went their own route, and save a shot out here and there, Laird did whatever he could to avoid bringing in Bebop, Rocksteady, the Technodrome etc in a more bad-ass modern take. I remember He-Man fans that were also TMNT fans were somewhat disappointed the 2K3 TMNT wasn't a modern bad-ass version of the old show.


...Really? ...They were disappointed? Being an OT fan, I would have rather the 2K3 series either continue the OT series, or completely do its own separate storytelling, which it did. I mean why retell the same exact script all over again, if the twists and turns are going to be too predictable? :-? Well whatever...

[Drose18]

...The show is more popular simply because its airing on Nick, one of the most popular kids channels. Nick is also promoting the hell out of it...

Agreed

..The 2k3 series aired on an obscure Saturday morning block that didn't even exist all throughout the U.S. on the Fox network...

Lesser known would be better than obscure and not to mention it changed channels half way through its run.

[NinjaMan]

I can only speak for myself, but for me I find it much better than the 03 series. Nick version seems more lively. 03 was bland to me.

[n-zero]

I think we should ask:
Is the Nick show really catering to the older fans, or is the Nick show simply using particular characters and aspects of the TMNT franchise that worked, and trying it out on a whole new generation that is oblivious to TMNT? Because let's face it, the show is for children, and not for us (teenagers and adults).


I'd say the new series hits the "Pixar Point," where it is fun enough for kids, but also smart enough for adults to be able to enjoy.

The classic series was clearly for kids.

2K3 was clearly for older fans, but was more Mirage focused to the point of not cashing in on any classic series nostalgia.

Next Mutation was trying too hard to be Power Rangers.

NickTurtles simply casts a wider net, and is run by people talented enough to pull it off.

[Coola Yagami]

...Really? ...They were disappointed? Being an OT fan, I would have rather the 2K3 series either continue the OT series, or completely do its own separate storytelling, which it did. I mean why retell the same exact script all over again, if the twists and turns are going to be too predictable? :-? Well whatever...

A little. Like I said this was coming from a forum about He-Man, but dealing with fans from both franchises. The He-Man show dealt with the heroes preventing Skeletor from conquering Castle Greyskull, just like the old show. However, it was updated, characters were changed and/or improved, the villains were more competent (Evil Lyn in particular) and didn't have the 80's cheese and censorship.

So these same fans also expected to see the Turtles face Shredder and Krang in the Technodrome and whatnot, but with the kick-ass martial arts action that the 80's wouldn't allow due to budget and censorship, and some were disappointed when the show was so completely different and missing what they felt were some of the core characters (remember, people that don't know the Mirage comics existed).

Any TMNT story has the same basic story, the Turtles fight Shredder and meet April along the way. It's just how you execute it and the characters you introduce that makes it different.

In a way, this is similar to Dragonball Kai and FMA Brotherhood came out roughly at the same time (at least in Japan). Both were remakes, but Brotherhood was favored more since it was a new story and completely redrawn as opposed to Kai just reusing the same old 90's footage and animation. He-Man was a remake, TMNT was a whole new interpretation based on the comics. Those expecting it to be a modern remake were disappointed.

[Shark_Blade]

I'd say yes to 2k12 cause I grew up with OT.

I like 2k3 too but I was not following the comics at the time, and I believe most of the casual viewers were too. So it pretty much dampened my enjoyment a bit. I was hoping for something familiar to appear in the show - like Bebop and Rocksteady to show up, Baxter mutating into a fly (in a darker tone perhaps), etc but none of that happened. Them turning Shredder into a lame Utrom was the last straw for me and I left the show completely. I felt so betrayed. :mad:

Only recently that I read the Ultimate Collection comics that I found my appreciation for 2k3, there was so much faithful references to the comics which is wonderful! I'm currently watching the 2k3 show again. :) Still a bit miffed by Utrom Shredder, but it has a lot of other good things to offer. For example: Usagi Yojimbo. :tlove:

So yeah, thanks to the re-release of Ultimate Collection comics, I'm a 2k3 fan again despite preferring OT much more.

[CyberCubed]

Yeah if, "This thread should be locked!" is becoming a cliche, it's because you say it on the regular.

How many threads do we need where people constantly say over and over again that the 4kids series wasn't popular?

Its like every other day now people bring up the 4kids series as some unpopular middle child show. Its disgusting and it needs to stop, the show was critically acclaimed by the fanbase.

[Jester]

You're a real champion for free speech, you know that?

[Avatar Yuffie]

In a way, this is similar to Dragonball Kai and FMA Brotherhood came out roughly at the same time (at least in Japan). Both were remakes, but Brotherhood was favored more since it was a new story and completely redrawn as opposed to Kai just reusing the same old 90's footage and animation. He-Man was a remake, TMNT was a whole new interpretation based on the comics. Those expecting it to be a modern remake were disappointed.



The first FMA anime series divulged and created itself new original characters (Sloth for example) and a completely different ending with Bones' interpretation what the Door and the Philosopher's Stone. Hiromu Arakawa gave her blessings for the changes.

Brotherhood was favored the most because it followed the manga. Around that time the original source finished it's story, and Brotherhood is the more faithful adaptation.

As for 2k12... well, IIRC people who made the show were fans/grew up with the OT. It'd make more sense they'll put in badass adaptation interpretation of the Turtles they remember for the young 'ins.

[Konchadunga]

There's two ways to look at this show's use of the OT elements, and its success. The first view is that it used them to bring back a lot of fans of the OT, and it succeeded because these people hold onto their nostalgia, while at the same time having expectations that are much higher today. The second view is that this show decided to recycle elements from the OT; similar to how the 2003 show recycled elements from the Mirage series, and this one was more successful because most stuff from an adult-ish graphic novel has to be dumbed down for kids; whereas most stuff from a more conservative era's cartoon can actually be improved.

Either way, I never really stopped hearing nostalgic old fans pour their derision on the 2003 series as long as it was on. It led to some rather embarrassing reviews of Turtles Forever, and not even just the negative ones; people acting like they shouldn't have to recognize Karai and Ch'rel and thus are entitled to make "what the Hell" digs them, and that gives you a good time frame for how persistent the animosity toward the 2003 series was.

[Refractive Reflections]

I'd say the new series hits the "Pixar Point," where it is fun enough for kids, but also smart enough for adults to be able to enjoy.

The classic series was clearly for kids.

2K3 was clearly for older fans, but was more Mirage focused to the point of not cashing in on any classic series nostalgia.

Next Mutation was trying too hard to be Power Rangers.

NickTurtles simply casts a wider net, and is run by people talented enough to pull it off.

You could argue it was for the "older fans", but I would say that 2K3's grittiness was more or less following the trend of darker storytelling for cartoons (during the 90s and early 00s), and while having looser censorship rules, it was an opportune time to introduce a substantially more serious depiction of the Turtles that Mirage storytelling could provide.

:P As much as we may want to assume the 2K3 cartoons was for "us" (those that grew up with the OT), it was primarily entertainment for children at that time (with it being designated as a "kids cartoon"). The advertisers are far more concerned about the kid demographic watching the cartoon (which influences the longevity of the series) rather than us "older fans" viewing the cartoon.

[Konchadunga]

Don't forget that the new toyline was selling very well, even before the show debuted. Don't forget that Peter Laird got paid millions for the license. Don't forget that Playmates has held onto it, even through the rough times. What does this tell you? Nostalgia is never out of their mind entirely, and it may, in fact, be increasing.

Something that I've been noticing these days is that the conventional archetype of the Yuppy is becoming extinct. It was a product of an era where getting ahead in life was a matter of driving your car to some bloated corporation, and dressing and acting in accordance with how a rigidly-defined culture said. Similarly, media was limited to a few official channels. These days, gas is becoming prohibitively expensive, the ongoing expanse of Internet is dooming the conventional office environment, and there's an increase in work-from-home opportunities that mean you don't need to conform as much as you used to. Almost everyone owns a computer, and a phone that functions as one, and via these, they have access to a wider array of culture than their forebears. In essence, the new young professional class is what older generations would call "nerds." Nobody's got a legitimate claim that we shouldn't follow Ninja Turtles and the like, when we can make money just blogging about them. It would be foolish to think the business world is ignorant of these new developments.

[Slime State Alumni]

Don't forget that the new toyline was selling very well, even before the show debuted. Don't forget that Peter Laird got paid millions for the license. Don't forget that Playmates has held onto it, even through the rough times. What does this tell you? Nostalgia is never out of their mind entirely, and it may, in fact, be increasing.

Something that I've been noticing these days is that the conventional archetype of the Yuppy is becoming extinct. It was a product of an era where getting ahead in life was a matter of driving your car to some bloated corporation, and dressing and acting in accordance with how a rigidly-defined culture said. Similarly, media was limited to a few official channels. These days, gas is becoming prohibitively expensive, the ongoing expanse of Internet is dooming the conventional office environment, and there's an increase in work-from-home opportunities that mean you don't need to conform as much as you used to. Almost everyone owns a computer, and a phone that functions as one, and via these, they have access to a wider array of culture than their forebears. In essence, the new young professional class is what older generations would call "nerds." Nobody's got a legitimate claim that we shouldn't follow Ninja Turtles and the like, when we can make money just blogging about them. It would be foolish to think the business world is ignorant of these new developments.

Hrm some very interesting points. If you look at SDCC, it's basically a huge cash cow and seems to grow exponentially every year and businesses are definitely taking notice, especially the Hollywood movie industry.

[Konchadunga]

A shame those damned picketers, are, too. Any militant progressives here down to picket their churches?

[Donatello19]

I can only speak for myself, but for me I find it much better than the 03 series. Nick version seems more lively. 03 was bland to me.

Pretty much this.

[Aaronardo]

Other than the "thread should be locked" crack, I actually agree with CyberCubed. I right in the age range for the 2003 show but grew up with the 90's one. Why? Because I knew about the TMNT, but I didn't have Fox. Until they came to The CW, I couldn't watch their episodes! :ohwell:

Nickelodeon, however, is the FIRST kid's channel and therefore makes it very popular. Not only that, but getting off topic, the Nick Turtles is the second most popular show on the channel (losing to... well... you could probably guess who).

[Drose18]

Other than the "thread should be locked" crack, I actually agree with CyberCubed. I right in the age range for the 2003 show but grew up with the 90's one. Why? Because I knew about the TMNT, but I didn't have Fox. Until they came to The CW, I couldn't watch their episodes! :ohwell:

Nickelodeon, however, is the FIRST kid's channel and therefore makes it very popular. Not only that, but getting off topic, the Nick Turtles is the second most popular show on the channel (losing to... well... you could probably guess who).

Is it Sanjay and Craig? :D

[Electric]

im sure being on Nick does have some impact, as well as the advertising, but just because its on a more poular network doesnt mean that thats only why people watch it. If the nick show sucked, people wouldnt watch it just for the network.

i think the new series is just a good balance of what a lot of fans like about tmnt. not too serious, not too goofy, aimed towards kids but enjoyable for anyone. its not flawless by far, but i think its done a good job so far

[BubblyShell22]

I agree with ElectricN here. It's got that great mix of seriousness and humor rolled into one not to mention a lot of homages to other incarnations of TMNT that are sprinkled throughout episodes. I can't wait to see what Easter Eggs this new season brings.

[CyberCubed]

Ironically enough the Nick show is very different from the original cartoon, so I don't see why it would give them what they wanted. The few elements they took (human Splinter, some elements with mutagen), is dwarfed by all the changes and new stuff they made.

Plus all the iconic elements of the original series, Bebop/Rocksteady and the original Krang/Technodrome...are all absent.

Also some characters they kept like Traag are totally different now that they might as well be a different character entirely.

[Shark_Blade]

Because they're creative enough to create something new based on original materials. :cool:

Think Joker, Bane and Catwoman from the Dark Knight movies. Same goes with Nick Splinter, April, Karai, the whole cast.

[Leofan26]

Well, it's Nick. Let's face it, even though 2003 series had a lot going for it, good plots and serious elements, they had it in early times and lacked promotion for it. Nick tends to over advertise it's most popular shows, the only annoying thing is the breaks they give us :x

[snake]

Did Coola become Alliance?

Anyways, 2k3 wasn't advertised enough. Plus it was on 5 different channels at different times.

[Slime State Alumni]

Ironically enough the Nick show is very different from the original cartoon, so I don't see why it would give them what they wanted. The few elements they took (human Splinter, some elements with mutagen), is dwarfed by all the changes and new stuff they made.

Plus all the iconic elements of the original series, Bebop/Rocksteady and the original Krang/Technodrome...are all absent.

Also some characters they kept like Traag are totally different now that they might as well be a different character entirely.

It's a lot like the OT in spirit. What would be the point of literally redoing the OT beat for beat?

[Jester]

It's a lot like the OT in spirit. What would be the point of literally redoing the OT beat for beat?
It makes Cybercubed happy?

Sorry...no real reason. I agree with you. The only way yo keep it fresh is to change things...although some changes do seem unnecessary...like Pizza Face.

[Slime State Alumni]

It makes Cybercubed happy?

Sorry...no real reason. I agree with you. The only way yo keep it fresh is to change things things...although some changes do seem unnecessary...like Pizza Face.

I didn't mind the change they made to Pizza Face. Granted, I get why people are a little let down by the character design. Personally, I like it and look forward to him if he gets released as a toy (which I'm sure he will).

EDIT: Did anyone ever have the Food Fighters toys? It would've been awesome if they made Pizza Face look more like Private Pizza from that line. http://www.flickr.com/photos/kitkatio/6892224417/

[Jester]

The pepperoni eye patch is a nice touch.

[Slime State Alumni]

The pepperoni eye patch is a nice touch.

Switch out the military gear with a chef's uniform, like an apron and hat, and he would've been golden. Keep the eye patch though for obvious reasons.

[alliance]

2k3 Didn't give fans what they wanted....Period..

nick actually gives a f*ck..

[Jester]

You might not be old enough to know what this even is...but...

http://thumbs.imagekind.com/3079287_650/Broken-Record.jpg?v=1271395200

[Leo656]

:lol: Yeah really. Take a leap, guy, you're f*cking boring.

For me, the simple fact there aren't stupid g*ddamn pizza jokes every 5 f*cking seconds means that the 2K3 show will likely remain my preference regardless of what else happens. I've been sick of that sh*t since I was 8.

I honestly think that the 2K3 show's greatest strength was that it tried to be completely different from the OT. We're in a different place now as a fandom; if a show came out back then that was a straight rehash/reimagining of the OT, I honestly think people would have dismissed it as lazy. As I recall, at the time everyone was high on the fact the franchise had kind of "grown up" with them, and the 2K3 show was hitting the notes everyone wanted *then*. Now we seem to be in a place where we want more whimsy, so the newer show feels more "right".

Things and people change. *I* for one still prefer a less juvenile TMNT cartoon that can almost stand next to Justice League/JLU etc. as far as tone and quality, and I also will take hand-drawn animation over CGI 99.999999% of the time. For *this* fan, the Nick show isn't hitting the right notes or "giving me what I want". Not that I don't like it, but if it were up to me it would be completely different in many ways. I don't like the April/Donnie thing, I don't like the never-ending "Mutagen Freak-Of-The-Week" thing, I don't like (and have NEVER liked) the pizza obsession, I don't like the way The Kraang talk, I don't like the (supposedly) "comedic" CGI sight gags... nothing that would make me not watch the show, but enough that I don't make it a *point* to watch it. I catch it when I catch it and that's good enough. But at the same time, I'm not the audience, the audience is 8-year-olds and it's designed for them. I get that.

But *some* of us didn't want a show reminiscent of the OT at all, so it's impossible to make any kind of blanket statement about whether the new show is "better" at "giving fans what they want". Some of us want different things, and that should be OK. 2K3 wasn't perfect, but it was better by far at giving me what *I* wanted to see. The only thing the new show is giving me that I like, is a new TMNT show. That's about it. I like that there's a TMNT show on TV. I kinda wish it wasn't this one.

[CyberCubed]

The funniest part of it all is how the OT wasn't based on mutant of the week storylines either, and most on subtle dry humor rather than visual gags.

The OT and Nick show are really nothing alike either.

[Leo656]

Yeah, really. The pizza obsession and "Goofy for the sake of Being Goofy" is really all there is as far as similarity. The "throwback" characters all look and act entirely different.

[CyberCubed]

Yeah, really. The pizza obsession and "Goofy for the sake of Being Goofy" is really all there is as far as similarity. The "throwback" characters all look and act entirely different.

And the difference is the OT was more parody goofy with the 4th wall breaking and crazy plotlines, whereas the Nick show is goofy in terms of visual humor and silly villains with the Kraang.

[chrisdude]

I'm gonna say that the Nick show does give fans what they want, based solely on the amount of people who are happy about it. Seems fair to me. Yeah, being on Nickelodeon helps to an extent. But really, I think it's more important that people actually like it. Kids like it, and adults are, at least, pleasantly surprised. Parents are watching it with their kids. The show has been well-received across the board, even if a few people here don't dig it. And, honestly, the fact that only a few people here hate it is about the highest praise the show could get.

But, I also submit to you all the possibility that the OT is just more likeable than Mirage, and adapted/recycled elements of the former will beat out the latter every time.

And this movie's gonna be huge.

[Jester]

Can I go on the record as saying "It's too early to say if it 'succeeded' in giving fans 'what they want' because we're only 1 season and 1 episode in."?

I mean, everyone's crying about the "Mutant of the Week" style story telling, but so far all we've seen is 1 episode with a mutated Kirby. Next episode will have the Squirrelinoids (or what ever) and outside of that we have Ice Cream Kitty, Pizza Face, Mutagen Man (does he count...he was from last season) and maybe 1 or two other NEW mutants that we know of...and this is over a 26 episode season.

I really think all the doom and gloom of some people is premature.

[CyberCubed]

There's also Slash, Tiger Claw and others. The whole theme of the season is finding mutagen containers. It's going to be loaded with mutants

[Electric]

That's just the angle this series seems to be taking, making the mutagen and kraang a recurring prevalent plot. This could continue successfully for awhile, or maybe they'll change it after season 2, who knows

[Refractive Reflections]

Can I go on the record as saying "It's too early to say if it 'succeeded' in giving fans 'what they want' because we're only 1 season and 1 episode in."?

I mean, everyone's crying about the "Mutant of the Week" style story telling, but so far all we've seen is 1 episode with a mutated Kirby. Next episode will have the Squirrelinoids (or what ever) and outside of that we have Ice Cream Kitty, Pizza Face, Mutagen Man (does he count...he was from last season) and maybe 1 or two other NEW mutants that we know of...and this is over a 26 episode season.

I really think all the doom and gloom of some people is premature.

I wouldn't say it's "doom and gloom" its more or less significant disappointment, because in the first season we had substantial backstories of Xever, Bradford, and Baxter and after seeing those episodes, it actually raised my expectations for the series when I was initially indifferent to it. I was especially impressed with "Baxter's Gambit" when the writers were able to create a scenario to make Xever (Fishface) and Raph form a temporary truce/bond, and in "Never Say Xever" with Leo's mercy toward Xever, and in the process, having their characters relate to each other.

I thought the series was establishing this level of depth in the series, but about 2/3 - 3/4 of the 1st season, that level of writing seems to have gone aside. Most the excitement of the show now, is based on the whole April and Don relationship, what unexpected mutants we will get, and Mikey's randomness.

It just seems that most of the mutants we get now (Snakeweed, Spiderbytez, Justin, Spyroach, Timothy/Mutagen Man, Wasp Mutants, Newtralizer, and the Squirrel mutant in the next episode possibly) don't have that backstory like Xever and Bradford had, or are not sentient beings at all. (As for Kirby's recent mutation, his character could have had some importance outside of mutating him though.) Despite my criticism of the "mutant of the week" within this series, I keep wondering and/or hoping these mutants will show that backstory or that there's a broader, more meaningful arc going on here that would give a reason as to why there's such a rush to have so many mutants so early in the series, rather than the series seemingly trying to impress us on what animal or object can be mutated.


I'm hoping, hoping... again, that maybe with April going on her own now without the Turtles, that maybe it could expand on her life outside of the Turtles with Irma and Casey, and give depth to April's character that way.

I wouldn't be complaining about the series if I didn't sense the series had the potential to take the storywriting to a deeper level, which it did back in the beginning 2/3 of the first season, but now it seems the series is regressing away from that depth, as I mentioned before.

...Then again, maybe I should start lowering my expectations of this series so I won't feel so disappointed... :ohwell:

[Electric]

I wouldn't say it's "doom and gloom" its more or less significant disappointment, because in the first season we had substantial backstories of Xever, Bradford, and Baxter and after seeing those episodes, it actually raised my expectations for the series when I was initially indifferent to it. I was especially impressed with "Baxter's Gambit" when the writers were able to create a scenario to make Xever (Fishface) and Raph form a temporary truce/bond, and in the process, having their characters relate to each other.

I thought the series was establishing this level of depth in the series, but about 2/3 - 3/4 of the 1st season, that level of writing seems to have gone aside. Most the excitement of the show now, is based on the whole April and Don relationship, what unexpected mutants we will get, and Mikey's randomness.

It just seems that most of the mutants we get now (Snakeweed, Spiderbytez, Justin, Spyroach, Timothy/Mutagen Man, Wasp Mutants, Newtralizer, and the Squirrel mutant in the next episode possibly) don't have that backstory like Xever and Bradford had, or are not sentient beings at all. (As for Kirby's recent mutation, his character could have had some importance outside of mutating him though.) Despite my criticism of the "mutant of the week" within this series, I keep wondering and/or hoping these mutants will show that backstory or that there's a broader, more meaningful arc going on here that would give a reason as to why there's such a rush to have so many mutants so early in the series, rather than the series seemingly trying to impress us on what animal or object can be mutated.


I'm hoping, hoping... again, that maybe with April going on her own now without the Turtles, that maybe it could expand on her life outside of the Turtles with Irma and Casey, and give depth to April's character that way.

I wouldn't be complaining about the series if I didn't sense the series had the potential to take the storywriting to a deeper level, which it did back in the beginning 2/3 of the first season, but now it seems the series is regressing away from that depth, as I mentioned before.

...Then again, maybe I should start lowering my expectations of this series so I won't feel so disappointed... :ohwell:

I get what your saying, but if you look past the mutants, there is a ton of deeper writing going on. Karai being splinters daughter is obviously going to have depth and development to its arc, April is away from the turtles, so she gets a chance for development, the turtles will be going to dimension x which could lead to any number plots as well as bringing back leather head, raph and Casey's relationship that will be built, raph and slashs relationship, mutagen mans plot (that ciro hinted would be a big part of this season).

The mutant of the week stuff does take away from this shows potential, but it is a kids show, so they can't just make it all deep plot and writing. But if you see the arcs behind it, it shows that the writers aren't decreasing at all, especially compared to the first season, where the only true arcs were tmnt vs shredder, tmnt vs kraang, and Donnie and April

[Refractive Reflections]

I get what your saying, but if you look past the mutants, there is a ton of deeper writing going on. Karai being splinters daughter is obviously going to have depth and development to its arc, April is away from the turtles, so she gets a chance for development, the turtles will be going to dimension x which could lead to any number plots as well as bringing back leather head, raph and Casey's relationship that will be built, raph and slashs relationship, mutagen mans plot (that ciro hinted would be a big part of this season).

There is a lot of potential for sure and I am still hopeful :), but I guess I would have preferred to see the series develop the characters it already had (as it was doing with Bradford and Xever) slightly more, rather than perpetually introducing new characters as just "another reckless mutant" that has to be defeated.

Eh... *shrug* Whatever, I mean again, we all just have to wait and see. :ohwell:

[Electric]

There is a lot of potential for sure and I am still hopeful :), but I guess I would have preferred to see the series develop the characters it already had (as it was doing with Bradford and Xever) slightly more, rather than perpetually introducing new characters as just "another reckless mutant" that has to be defeated.

Eh... *shrug* Whatever, I mean again, we all just have to wait and see. :ohwell:


again i agree, i wouldve preferred them to maybe not have mutants like the squirrel or owl, and instead develop other mutants more, like snakeweed, or evene further develop DP/FF,

im just trying to make the best out of this show, and not get disapointed by things im not a fan of:D

[chrisdude]

Uhhh... I just saw the mutagen spill as a build-up to a monster-filled Halloween episode...

[Refractive Reflections]

Uhhh... I just saw the mutagen spill as a build-up to a monster-filled Halloween episode...

**shrug** For all we know, it could be just simply that. :lol:

[CyberCubed]

Uhhh... I just saw the mutagen spill as a build-up to a monster-filled Halloween episode...

Uh you do realize we have a ton of confirmed mutants this season, right?

[chrisdude]

Uh you do realize we have a ton of confirmed mutants this season, right?Is it really more than the number we had first season?

[Pterobat]

"Succeed more" with whom? The fans or the general audience?

Even if some nerdy things make a lot of money at the box office, the vast majority of viewers of new Turtles series are going to be children and their parents. This mainstream audience is the first concern of any production company worth its salt.

If the Nicktoon includes things that Turtles fans have always wanted to see redone, it might just be a happy accident. That they reached into the Turtles franchise hat and found something that might sell to a new generation of kids, and coincidentally, also be something the older fans want to see.

It's more about convenience than pleasing the fans, that the Nick crew has a whole media franchise to draw from, which is easier to do than making new stuff.

It's just like with Transformers: somebody puts out toys based on obscure Transformers that only nerds remember, because these characters will still be new to the general audience, and nobody has to make up anything new.

[BubblyShell22]

Uh, JYX, Leo didn't show Xever mercy, he showed Fong mercy and let him go. I'd love to see a backstory about the Purple Dragons as well, but even so, I'm excited for this new season. Every TMNT fan wants something different, so you're not going to cater to everybody, but I'd say that this show is doing a great job of mixing different elements in and really giving us a good story and paying homage to what has come before in different ways.

[tylerdavies]

Well, it's Nick. Let's face it, even though 2003 series had a lot going for it, good plots and serious elements, they had it in early times and lacked promotion for it. Nick tends to over advertise it's most popular shows, the only annoying thing is the breaks they give us :x

The breaks are the worst part about this show

[CyberCubed]

If Nick brings Armaggon into this show it will become my favorite cartoon. So if they want to give fans something they've always wanted...then give us Armaggon.

[Konchadunga]

:lol: Yeah really. Take a leap, guy, you're f*cking boring.

For me, the simple fact there aren't stupid g*ddamn pizza jokes every 5 f*cking seconds means that the 2K3 show will likely remain my preference regardless of what else happens. I've been sick of that sh*t since I was 8.

Don't exaggerate to make a point. That's low. It wasn't nearly every five seconds; I'm reasonably certain it wasn't even every episode.

As for the rest:

I honestly think that the 2K3 show's greatest strength was that it tried to be completely different from the OT. We're in a different place now as a fandom; if a show came out back then that was a straight rehash/reimagining of the OT, I honestly think people would have dismissed it as lazy. As I recall, at the time everyone was high on the fact the franchise had kind of "grown up" with them, and the 2K3 show was hitting the notes everyone wanted *then*. Now we seem to be in a place where we want more whimsy, so the newer show feels more "right".

Things and people change. *I* for one still prefer a less juvenile TMNT cartoon that can almost stand next to Justice League/JLU etc. as far as tone and quality, and I also will take hand-drawn animation over CGI 99.999999% of the time. For *this* fan, the Nick show isn't hitting the right notes or "giving me what I want". Not that I don't like it, but if it were up to me it would be completely different in many ways. I don't like the April/Donnie thing, I don't like the never-ending "Mutagen Freak-Of-The-Week" thing, I don't like (and have NEVER liked) the pizza obsession, I don't like the way The Kraang talk, I don't like the (supposedly) "comedic" CGI sight gags... nothing that would make me not watch the show, but enough that I don't make it a *point* to watch it. I catch it when I catch it and that's good enough. But at the same time, I'm not the audience, the audience is 8-year-olds and it's designed for them. I get that.

But *some* of us didn't want a show reminiscent of the OT at all, so it's impossible to make any kind of blanket statement about whether the new show is "better" at "giving fans what they want". Some of us want different things, and that should be OK. 2K3 wasn't perfect, but it was better by far at giving me what *I* wanted to see. The only thing the new show is giving me that I like, is a new TMNT show. That's about it. I like that there's a TMNT show on TV. I kinda wish it wasn't this one.

I used to agree with that. At the height of the 2003 show's quality, I thought it did a lot better than the original. Unfortunately, though many will attack my reasoning, and hey; I hope I'm wrong, I could see the 2003 show not aging well; maybe it already hasn't. The reason is, despite that 2003's show is objectively much better than the Fred Wolf show, now that I'm old enough to read the Mirage series and that series is now more available than ever before, I really would just prefer to read the Mirage series. In general, 2003's strongest episodes were the one's adapted from Mirage stories, and that's a point for it in terms of respect, but sadly not for it in terms of branching out to be its own thing. I'm not stating any revolutionary opinion that when the show actually broke out of the Mirage mold, it didn't retain its quality; many of us differ as to exactly when the series started going downhill (I take the rather extreme position that it was as soon as Ch'rel was revealed), but that it went downhill is pretty commonly accepted.

Say what you will about Fred Wolf, but it took advantage of its chance to be unique. It didn't even try to be reverent to Mirage, but if it had, it still wouldn't have succeeded too well. Instead, it took its lemon position and made lemonade. Not everyone's cup of tea, but a cup that everyone can look back on and continue to see as unique. 2003, for all its initially great intentions, suffers from lack of remarkability. The action is much better than Fred Wolf's, and I'll grant that it's wonderfully animated, but the no-kill policy cripples everything next to the graphic novels from which it was adapted. I loved the City of War arc the first time I saw it, but after the 2003 series had worn out its welcome and I became familiar with the original Mirage arc, it just looks dumb. The whole 4Kids Foot Clan looks dumb. Meanwhile, I thought the 2003 show's humor was much more cringe-worthy than Fred Wolf's; maybe more forgivable in that it didn't hijack the plot as much, but for me that factor is irrelevant when the show has other problems that did. That brings us to continuity, which is frequently cited as the one thing the series has over the Mirage original--I might be inclined to agree, but with where the plot went, I again have to say that's irrelevant.

Therefor, though I'm not crazy about certain things this show is doing either--I've really ripped into the mutant-of-the-week thing and the weight Don's crush on April has on everything--I do at least have to credit it for not falling into 2003's trap of being similar, but inferior to the Mirage series. I also feel IDW falls hard into that trap in its attempts to imitate both Mirage and Fred Wolf; the former because once again, their no-kill policy gums up the ability to take it seriously, and the latter because they've stripped the Fred Wolf stuff of its humor. I grant Krang has a dark sense of humor somewhat in line with his old self, but the IDW Neutrinos were terrible. My opinion is that if you're going to put ridiculous stuff in your series, at least it needs to be funny. If I can't take a series seriously, and I also can't laugh at it, where am I? The short answer is I'm just bored. Nick's show, though reverent to the past, isn't a slave to it; it doesn't try overwhelmingly hard to recreate past success when that's an almost guaranteed failure--even if a success, will still lead to irrelevance. Instead, it charts its own route; doing new things simply for the sake of being noteworthy next to its predecessors. For me, that's more important in an adaptation than reverence.

Oh; and why do you use asterisks where italics should be used?

[Leo656]

Don't exaggerate to make a point. That's low.

Eh, I just sort of always do that. Blatant exaggerations are pretty easy to spot, so I'm always pretty sure one can tell it's a facetious statement. I mean, were the pizza jokes in the OT literally every five seconds? No, but they did annoy me greatly even as a child, since they had to be shoe-horned in regardless of whether it was actually funny or not. It *felt* like that often, to me. :lol:

Oh; and why do you use asterisks where italics should be used?

Just a habit I fell into. Old people have quirks. I'm not exactly old, but... I'm getting there, slowly.

As far as simply preferring to read the actual Mirage source material over 2K3's rather weak and loose "adaptations" or "re-tellings" or whatever they could be called, I totally get that. I just try and enjoy them simply as "similar but different", rather than "similar but inferior", stories. I'll 100% always read the comics stories over watching the way Batman: TAS, Superman: TAS, Justice League/JLU, etc. loosely adapt them, but I still appreciate the cartoons and animated films for what they are. None of them ever quite do justice to the comics stories they're based on, but they're still great in their own way, and in such cases I look at any similarities or straight-up references to the books as a Bonus more than anything.

I watch TMNT 2K3 that way, not as even a loose adaptation of Mirage but an entirely different thing that occasionally uses the comics as a blueprint to throw a little extra in for those fans who would recognize it. I do agree fully that when it borrowed heavily from Mirage was when it was at its best, but that's pretty much true for every comic-based cartoon. Others have said that in many ways the FW TMNT show benefited greatly from having to be its own thing immediately, as most of Mirage canon hadn't even been established yet, which did indeed make it very unique and prevented a trap almost every comic book cartoon gets into, which is as you said, when things get further away from "the source", they go awry very quickly.

That's not a failing unique to 2K3 TMNT, though, by any means. More like the OT was lucky in that it really didn't have much to be compared to, while the 2K3 and 2012 shows have the burden of being retroactively compared - sometimes unfairly - not only to the earlier show(s), but in fact every single version of TMNT that has ever existed throughout all media. The OT, even today, does in a sense feel more "fresh" and "unique" and less "stale" than newer versions, but that's inherent by design. The newer shows carry a much heavier burden of comparison.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I can't really say that the Nick cartoon is giving me exactly everything that I want but it is unique in it's own way. My big grip with it though is that there are times where, from my point of view, it tries to be a little too similar to the previous cartoons such as turning Baxter into a fly, bringing in the technodrome and Dimension X, making Hamato Yoshi's into Splinter again, making Mikey the butt of his brothers jokes (which is even amplified here), etc. I think when it tries to act on it's own, it does a fine job. I don't mind a few influences and I appreciate all the Easter eggs but it that's all it would rely on, then it's just nothing but a fan service show.

2k3 for me is a real love letter to the fans of the mirage comics. The turtles' personalities are more fleshed out than in the comics, Casey has more of a personality outside 'the guy in the hokey mask', and also includes nods to other comic book artists and characters which is a real treat for comic book fans. Leonardo is at his best here; he's not officially the leader and doesn't bark orders like his other incarnations do. He takes the role of the big brother because he feels that he has to. He's highly respected because he usually finds a way around situations, he shows a lot more emotion, and he suffers through failing his family. The voice acting to me is top-notched which is unbelievable to say about anything 4kids worked on. I also love the unique storytelling this show offers and it has some of the most interesting villians of the TMNT property which the comics in general lack. With the exception of a few hiccups, I think this is probably the truest way to animate a turtles cartoon.

[Coola Yagami]

2k3 for me is a real love letter to the fans of the mirage comics.

and that's part of my point. If 2K3 is a love letter to the Mirage fans (while alientated those that only seen the old cartoon and never heard of Mirage) then this show is a love letter to basically everyone else. Just look at how excited everyone is to see Mutagen Man and Slash this season. Then there's Baxterfly and even Pizza Face (never in the show but based on the old toyline). It just seems to do a better job by referencing and using elements from the cartoon show everyone (outside this forum) remembers and not a comic book almost noone heard about.

[Technogeek29]

and that's part of my point. If 2K3 is a love letter to the Mirage fans (while alientated those that only seen the old cartoon and never heard of Mirage) then this show is a love letter to basically everyone else. Just look at how excited everyone is to see Mutagen Man and Slash this season. Then there's Baxterfly and even Pizza Face (never in the show but based on the old toyline). It just seems to do a better job by referencing and using elements from the cartoon show everyone (outside this forum) remembers and not a comic book almost noone heard about.


That gets your point across while equally shooting your self in the foot. HA! Pun intended.

[Coola Yagami]

[/B]

That gets your point across while equally shooting your self in the foot. HA! Pun intended.

True, but the general audience always has the right of way, so to speak, and whenever a TMNT fan thinks of TNNT out in the world beyond this forum, they usually think of the 80's version. After all, it's not the 2K3 Turtles I'm seeing at Hot Topic...

[CyberCubed]

After all, it's not the 2K3 Turtles I'm seeing at Hot Topic...

Stop it, there were a gazillion of 2k3 TMNT clothing lines when the show was airing. I owned like 10 different 2k3 shirts back from 2003-2006.

[Jester]

Stop it, there were a gazillion of 2k3 TMNT clothing lines when the show was airing. I owned like 10 different 2k3 shirts back from 2003-2006.
And there was a gazillion FW Turtles clothes when it was on the air. I owned like 10 different FW shirts back from 1990-1997...what's your point?

The biggest difference is now there's "Retro" TMNT stuff (which always seems to point to the FW series...odd, eh?) and Nick Stuff....

[Technogeek29]

True, but the general audience always has the right of way, so to speak, and whenever a TMNT fan thinks of TNNT out in the world beyond this forum, they usually think of the 80's version. After all, it's not the 2K3 Turtles I'm seeing at Hot Topic...

Really? There's a ton of 2K3/OT stuff at my Hot Topic. Nick is the one with the least amount merchandise

[CyberCubed]

And there was a gazillion FW Turtles clothes when it was on the air. I owned like 10 different FW shirts back from 1990-1997...what's your point?

The biggest difference is now there's "Retro" TMNT stuff (which always seems to point to the FW series...odd, eh?) and Nick Stuff....

Retro usually implies classic stuff. Same reason you see Nintendo shirts with the old NES and SNES Mario designs alongside the newer stuff.

[Coola Yagami]

Really? There's a ton of 2K3/OT stuff at my Hot Topic. Nick is the one with the least amount merchandise

I have never seen 2K3 TMNT anything when it came to shirts, least of all Hot Topic. I demand pics now and I will gladly eat my words.

[CyberCubed]

I have never seen 2K3 TMNT anything when it came to shirts, least of all Hot Topic. I demand pics now and I will gladly eat my words.

Are you speaking currently or ones that existed as the show was airing? Because there was a ton of 2k3 merchandize for everything...backpacks, bed sheets, clothes, toothbrushes, etc.

[Technogeek29]

I have never seen 2K3 TMNT anything when it came to shirts, least of all Hot Topic. I demand pics now and I will gladly eat my words.

Sure next visit I'll snag same for you.

[Coola Yagami]

Are you speaking currently or ones that existed as the show was airing? Because there was a ton of 2k3 merchandize for everything...backpacks, bed sheets, clothes, toothbrushes, etc.

I mean currently, and I'll be looking forward to seeing those pictures. Not to be snotty, but I mean, I really am curious.

[Jester]

Retro usually implies classic stuff. Same reason you see Nintendo shirts with the old NES and SNES Mario designs alongside the newer stuff.
But by now, according to a lot to people, the 4Kids series is "classic" but I don't see any new 4Kids inspired TMNT shirts.

[Bossa Nova]

I really do wonder why so many fans here seem to think the technodrome forums is the ultimate representation of the TMNT fandom. I do notice that here, yes, the Nick show is being received extremely well. That's great. But to state something as broad as that Nick is giving "fans what they want" based on the reception on this forum alone seems, I don't know, egotistical?

This fandom is WAY bigger than I think some of you guys give it credit for, and there's quite a large fanbase for the 2k3 turtles, especially on Deviantart, that I seriously don't think is going to go away anytime soon. So it's really, really weird to me when I see folks stating that "no one" cares about 2k3 over 2k12, or that what 2k3 had to offer can't stand up to the 2k12 series.

[Pterobat]

I really do wonder why so many fans here seem to think the technodrome forums is the ultimate representation of the TMNT fandom. I do notice that here, yes, the Nick show is being received extremely well. That's great. But to state something as broad as that Nick is giving "fans what they want" based on the reception on this forum alone seems, I don't know, egotistical?

This fandom is WAY bigger than I think some of you guys give it credit for, and there's quite a large fanbase for the 2k3 turtles, especially on Deviantart, that I seriously don't think is going to go away anytime soon. So it's really, really weird to me when I see folks stating that "no one" cares about 2k3 over 2k12, or that what 2k3 had to offer can't stand up to the 2k12 series.

Yyyyyep.

One board makes up a minority in internet fandom, and internet fandom in turn makes up a minority of total consumers of a media. Nerds might stick around with a property longer, but when you're discussing the initial release, it doesn't pay to put fans first.

Making the media appealing to a mainstream audience is the most important thing, and that is actually what the Nicktoons Turtles succeeds with. Not "giving fans what they want", but creating a thing that a lot of current kids can enjoy. When those two things coincide, that's great, but the main goal of the Nicktoons show is appealing to kids.

Also, 2k3 still hasn't been vindicated by history. It's only about a decade old, which isn't long enough for public nostalgia to kick in yet. The public nostalgia for the OT is just starting to come in, and when early 00s nostalgia comes around, then we'll see if 2k3 "failed" to withstand the test of time.

[ZariusTwo]

I think there will be a great sentiment for 4Kids TMNT...to a point anyway, the last two seasons will probably be lumbered in with the red sky seasons of the original run as being flawed and (almost) ended the era on a damp note, Turtles Forever managing to salvage it, though even those same fans will say that was flawed because of the perceived "wussification" of the 80s group.

The 2000s nostalgia market will be an interesting one to gauge, considering some of the shows from that era are still around to this day like Spongebob and Pokemon

[chrisdude]

There was a TON of 2k3 merchandise of all kinds, when that show was on the air. Backpacks, lunchboxes, t-shirts. Everything you would expect from a cartoon. I have some of that stuff, and I didn't even like the show. But that stuff is gone, gone, gone, today.

Now, there are OT-themed t-shirts every single time I walk into a Wal-Mart, Target, or Hot Topic. I know because I always look. There was ONE TIME that I saw a Nick-themed shirt in an adult size. One time. All the kids stuff is Nick, and all the adult stuff is OT. I had to order online to get a Mirage shirt.

[Bossa Nova]

Just because people are mentioning the 2k3 merchandise, I don't suppose anyone knows if there is ANY place that sells t-shirts with the 2k3 turtles now? I've searched all over for them, and I have a pretty nifty collection of both 80's and 2k12 turtles t-shirts, but seeing as 2k3 is my favorite I feel little left out. They don't have to be adult t-shirts either.

[Coola Yagami]

Yyyyyep.

One board makes up a minority in internet fandom, and internet fandom in turn makes up a minority of total consumers of a media. Nerds might stick around with a property longer, but when you're discussing the initial release, it doesn't pay to put fans first.

Making the media appealing to a mainstream audience is the most important thing, and that is actually what the Nicktoons Turtles succeeds with. Not "giving fans what they want", but creating a thing that a lot of current kids can enjoy. When those two things coincide, that's great, but the main goal of the Nicktoons show is appealing to kids.

Also, 2k3 still hasn't been vindicated by history. It's only about a decade old, which isn't long enough for public nostalgia to kick in yet. The public nostalgia for the OT is just starting to come in, and when early 00s nostalgia comes around, then we'll see if 2k3 "failed" to withstand the test of time.

I never mentioned just this forum. I mean any other message board that mentions the turtles, or even casual fans of the series and/or old show. Just the other day someone told me (as if I didn't already know) that the new show is gonna be 'awesome' cause he heard Slash is in gonna be in the second season. We went deeper into discussion about Slash and the idea of an evil Turtle when I mentioned we had the Dark Turtles in Fast Forward. He was like '...wut?' Never heard of it.

[Slime State Alumni]

I never mentioned just this forum. I mean any other message board that mentions the turtles, or even casual fans of the series and/or old show. Just the other day someone told me (as if I didn't already know) that the new show is gonna be 'awesome' cause he heard Slash is in gonna be in the second season. We went deeper into discussion about Slash and the idea of an evil Turtle when I mentioned we had the Dark Turtles in Fast Forward. He was like '...wut?' Never heard of it.

Probably because Flash Forward was garbage and your friend is better for avoiding, intentional or not.

[Jester]

Probably because Flash Forward was garbage and your friend is better for avoiding, intentional or not.
Fast Forward has its moments.

[CyberCubed]

Fast Forward has better villains than the majority of Nick characters. Other than Shredder/Karai/Baxter and maybe Dogpound/Fishface...the rest are either Kraang or mindless mutants.

[Leo656]

How boring and predictable we've all become.

"2K3 sucks, it was boring."
"2K3 was great! It was more serious than the old or new show!"
"It tried to be too serious. It failed miserably."
"Things don't HAVE to be goofy to be good! Mikey's a retard on the new show!"
"Casey was a retard in 2K3."
"2K3 was more like Mirage, so it was better."
"2K3 screwed up all the Mirage stories it tried to copy, so it sucked."
"The Nick villains are all just stupid 'Freak-Of-The-Week' characters made to sell toys!"
"The 2K3 villains were so bland and boring they didn't even deserve toys."
"Some of the 2K3 villains were much, much better than any of the Nick ones!"
"2K3 turned Shredder, the main villain, into a cyborg hybrid with Sorta-Krang, which was awful."
"It was creative and different!"
"It completely ruined the Oroku Saki character and turned him into a one-note super-villain."
"Whatever, you're just biased because the Nick show borrows from the OT."
"At least people remember the OT. Nobody watched 2K3 and nobody remembers it."
"That's not true! Lots of people watched it and a lot of people still like it, it just wasn't advertised as much as the new show."
"The fact they don't sell shirts of 2K3 proves nobody watched the show or remembers it. Something's only popular if I can buy a shirt of it at Hot Topic. Only popular things get sold at Hot Topic, so 2K3 is not and never was popular. Or good."
"Then why was it so popular back then?"
"It actually wasn't, those toys and DVDs that were selling so well for a while were an illusion. Besides, the Nick toys are much better, anyway."
"WHY do you hate 2K3 so much?"
"Because it sucks, it was boring."
"But it was GREAT...!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can we skip the next 8 pages of this discussion, please, since I just went ahead and wrote what y'all are gonna say? SO many threads about this... meh. Just MEH, already. I know it's going to come up repeatedly, but c'mon, can we wait 6 months or so in between? It's a dead-end with neither side willing to budge an inch.

[CyberCubed]

Agreed it is sickening especially since after the Nick hype dies down you'll see people criticize this show heavily too.

[Slime State Alumni]

How boring and predictable we've all become.

"2K3 sucks, it was boring."
"2K3 was great! It was more serious than the old or new show!"
"It tried to be too serious. It failed miserably."
"Things don't HAVE to be goofy to be good! Mikey's a retard on the new show!"
"Casey was a retard in 2K3."
"2K3 was more like Mirage, so it was better."
"2K3 screwed up all the Mirage stories it tried to copy, so it sucked."
"The Nick villains are all just stupid 'Freak-Of-The-Week' characters made to sell toys!"
"The 2K3 villains were so bland and boring they didn't even deserve toys."
"Some of the 2K3 villains were much, much better than any of the Nick ones!"
"2K3 turned Shredder, the main villain, into a cyborg hybrid with Sorta-Krang, which was awful."
"It was creative and different!"
"It completely ruined the Oroku Saki character and turned him into a one-note super-villain."
"Whatever, you're just biased because the Nick show borrows from the OT."
"At least people remember the OT. Nobody watched 2K3 and nobody remembers it."
"That's not true! Lots of people watched it and a lot of people still like it, it just wasn't advertised as much as the new show."
"The fact they don't sell shirts of 2K3 proves nobody watched the show or remembers it. Something's only popular if I can buy a shirt of it at Hot Topic. Only popular things get sold at Hot Topic, so 2K3 is not and never was popular. Or good."
"Then why was it so popular back then?"
"It actually wasn't, those toys and DVDs that were selling so well for a while were an illusion. Besides, the Nick toys are much better, anyway."
"WHY do you hate 2K3 so much?"
"Because it sucks, it was boring."
"But it was GREAT...!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can we skip the next 8 pages of this discussion, please, since I just went ahead and wrote what y'all are gonna say? SO many threads about this... meh. Just MEH, already. I know it's going to come up repeatedly, but c'mon, can we wait 6 months or so in between? It's a dead-end with neither side willing to budge an inch.

So.... we're all supposed to agree with each other?

[Leo656]

No, but it'd be nice if there weren't three or four concurrent threads where the same exact people repeat the same exact talking points until it inevitably devolves into "What I Like Is Better Than What You Like", which where it always goes.

At the very least, it needs a break. There's been a lot of "2K3 Vs. OT/Nick" back-and-forth lately and it's all exactly the same. I get it, these things come up. It's fun to debate. But I think this one's played out. Nobody can say anything that hasn't already been said and nobody is going to change anyone else's mind. We've all thrown our two cents in, but it's already getting back into "Your Show Sucks" Territory. Why?

[Powder]

Just because people are mentioning the 2k3 merchandise, I don't suppose anyone knows if there is ANY place that sells t-shirts with the 2k3 turtles now? I've searched all over for them, and I have a pretty nifty collection of both 80's and 2k12 turtles t-shirts, but seeing as 2k3 is my favorite I feel little left out. They don't have to be adult t-shirts either.

There are some 4kids shirts on this site still, though sizes are limited.

http://search.stylinonline.com/search?catalog=stylinonline&keywords=ninja+turtles&x=-898&y=-146

[Refractive Reflections]

How boring and predictable we've all become.

"2K3 sucks, it was boring."
"2K3 was great! It was more serious than the old or new show!"
"It tried to be too serious. It failed miserably."
"Things don't HAVE to be goofy to be good! Mikey's a retard on the new show!"
"Casey was a retard in 2K3."
"2K3 was more like Mirage, so it was better."
"2K3 screwed up all the Mirage stories it tried to copy, so it sucked."
"The Nick villains are all just stupid 'Freak-Of-The-Week' characters made to sell toys!"
"The 2K3 villains were so bland and boring they didn't even deserve toys."
"Some of the 2K3 villains were much, much better than any of the Nick ones!"
"2K3 turned Shredder, the main villain, into a cyborg hybrid with Sorta-Krang, which was awful."
"It was creative and different!"
"It completely ruined the Oroku Saki character and turned him into a one-note super-villain."
"Whatever, you're just biased because the Nick show borrows from the OT."
"At least people remember the OT. Nobody watched 2K3 and nobody remembers it."
"That's not true! Lots of people watched it and a lot of people still like it, it just wasn't advertised as much as the new show."
"The fact they don't sell shirts of 2K3 proves nobody watched the show or remembers it. Something's only popular if I can buy a shirt of it at Hot Topic. Only popular things get sold at Hot Topic, so 2K3 is not and never was popular. Or good."
"Then why was it so popular back then?"
"It actually wasn't, those toys and DVDs that were selling so well for a while were an illusion. Besides, the Nick toys are much better, anyway."
"WHY do you hate 2K3 so much?"
"Because it sucks, it was boring."
"But it was GREAT...!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can we skip the next 8 pages of this discussion, please, since I just went ahead and wrote what y'all are gonna say? SO many threads about this... meh. Just MEH, already. I know it's going to come up repeatedly, but c'mon, can we wait 6 months or so in between? It's a dead-end with neither side willing to budge an inch.

Are you a stenographer in real life Leo656? :lol:

[BabyTurtles]

hmm....IDK

tmnt 2012 gave fans Apriltello and I'm not sure if they are succeeding with that XD lol


also quick question? did 2003 succeed less or something? XD (I thought 2003 was pretty popular back then....wasn't it?)

[Refractive Reflections]

hmm....IDK

tmnt 2012 gave fans Apriltello and I'm not sure if they are succeeding with that XD lol


also quick question? did 2003 succeed less or something? XD (I thought 2003 was pretty popular back then....wasn't it?)

Oh BabyTurtles :P, I see you threw some gasoline in this thread with that ambiguous question, knowing the arguments and personalities on this thread. :lol:

[Wildcat]

Now that Nick's season 1 has finished I can honestly say I still like 23k better. I know you cant compare 1 season to an entire series run but the Nick's version just seems a little typical...I don't know its hard to explain.

Its slowly added in more humor especially with Mikey which at first I thought was really cute and clever but now its just the dumb comic relief routine.

I still like the show and will keep watching though.

[Konchadunga]

I will add to that the problem that not much sense of a story arc exists anymore in this show. It probably will exist again, but right now we've sunk far into mutant-of-the-week stories in a show that already had too many. 2003's show gave us an awesome tease for Season 2, in the form of Splinter going missing and the Utroms being revealed.

[BubblyShell22]

But there is a story arc with the canisters of mutagen being spread over the city and the Turtles having to find them before more mutants are created. Plus, they'll probably be searching for a way to restore Kirby back to his original form. In season one the main story was rescuing Kirby with the added story of Shredder and the Foot.

And I agree with Leo that this whole Nick vs. 2K3 vs. OT is getting really old. I like all three for different reasons and that's that. Why can't we all just stop with this crap and enjoy the Nick show for what it is?

[Jester]

I still can't get over the whole "This season is SOOOO Mutant of the Week!!" when we're a whole 2 episodes in. My god, we don't know how the writers will handle it. Are we really this gloomy?

[Bossa Nova]

There are some 4kids shirts on this site still, though sizes are limited.

http://search.stylinonline.com/search?catalog=stylinonline&keywords=ninja+turtles&x=-898&y=-146

Thank you, very much appreciated :) Funky sizes or not, they'll still make great pajama tops.

[The Big Bad]

I still can't get over the whole "This season is SOOOO Mutant of the Week!!" when we're a whole 2 episodes in. My god, we don't know how the writers will handle it. Are we really this gloomy?

I think we have more to go on than these two episodes, though. We have twenty-eight episodes in which we've arguably gotten a pretty good idea of how Ciro Nieli and company work--enough to speculate with a reasonably high degree of accuracy.

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, but people are acting like every episode is just going to be about mutants and nothing else when there are a lot of other things that are going to probably be explored. I, for one, am excited to see where this season takes us, mutants and all.

[Konchadunga]

I still can't get over the whole "This season is SOOOO Mutant of the Week!!" when we're a whole 2 episodes in. My god, we don't know how the writers will handle it. Are we really this gloomy?

Granted it's a premature judgment, but to be fair, the previews released have not given much indication of being anything else than MOTW. Not to mention that last season was largely that, despite lip-service to a story-arc. Hopefully, they're just churning out monster movie tributes since it's October, but I have little reason to be optimistic now.

[Avatar Yuffie]

hmm....IDK

tmnt 2012 gave fans Apriltello and I'm not sure if they are succeeding with that XD lol


also quick question? did 2003 succeed less or something? XD (I thought 2003 was pretty popular back then....wasn't it?)

It never picked up in my country (OT was a big deal back then though). Japan dropped it around season 2 and never bothered finishing it's run. Not sure about the western side of the world.

[Shark_Blade]

I have never seen 2K3 TMNT anything when it came to shirts, least of all Hot Topic. I demand pics now and I will gladly eat my words.
True. The only 2k3 related thing I ever seen is this..

http://i.imgur.com/OSHPkpD.jpg (http://sharkblade.tumblr.com/post/64739480058/i-want-raphael-to-wash-my-car-please)

And it's not even official. :lol:

[Foot Soldier Clang]

The Nick show did a better job at getting my attention. I don't dislike the 4kids show, but I let it breeze by me. I'd like to give it a chance, but I have trouble finding the complete series on DVD. I'm hoping Shout Factory releases it at some point.

I think the Nick show feels a bit more nostalgic than the 4kids show, and it's really plays off of that adult-fanboy aesthetic while creating stories for a younger audience that have a mature feeling to them (meaning, the show can be dark and somewhat violent). The 4kids show violence, from what I saw of it, seemed rather extravagant and comic booky in contrast to the Nick show.

So I'm not certain if either series really gave the fans what they wanted. I think the Nick show serves to give its creators what they've always wanted from a TMNT show, and also gives the shows producers and Playmates what they want (more characters, more toys to sell, more money to make). As a fan I feel satiated, but I want more from future episodes of the Nick show.

[Coola Yagami]

True. The only 2k3 related thing I ever seen is this..

http://i.imgur.com/OSHPkpD.jpg (http://sharkblade.tumblr.com/post/64739480058/i-want-raphael-to-wash-my-car-please)

And it's not even official. :lol:

rofl... and even then, they still use the classic logo. Probably couldn't find an OT pic, or didn't know the difference.

[chrisdude]

If it helps, this stuff is from my closet.
http://i.imgur.com/AYJSJry.jpg
The bottom left is one of those big popcorn tins they sell during the holidays. It holds my action figures.
I also have a lunch box with what I think is the same art as the board game. But that doesn't seem to be in the closet...

[Jester]

Have the shirt...had the popcorn tub. :D

[Coola Yagami]

If it helps, this stuff is from my closet.
http://i.imgur.com/AYJSJry.jpg
The bottom left is one of those big popcorn tins they sell during the holidays. It holds my action figures.
I also have a lunch box with what I think is the same art as the board game. But that doesn't seem to be in the closet...

Cool shirt dude. I just wish they wouldn't use the same stock art over and over and ****in over again. I has some puzzles from the 2K3 show too.

[Technogeek29]

If it helps, this stuff is from my closet.
http://i.imgur.com/AYJSJry.jpg
The bottom left is one of those big popcorn tins they sell during the holidays. It holds my action figures.
I also have a lunch box with what I think is the same art as the board game. But that doesn't seem to be in the closet...

Got the playing cards from my Grandmother as a Christmas present. And at places like Hastings the Popcorn boxes still sell. Mosst likely it'll be 2k12 this year since the series is more current. I unforunetly destroyed all my 2k3 shirts from days of my youth (As also anything from the OT as well) If Hastings hadn't closed in my home town. I could've snagged some pictures of 2k3 merchandise from there.

[CyberCubed]

There was a crapton of 2k3 merchandize for literally everything. I had a 2k3 flashlight and toothbrush for god sakes.

[Shark_Blade]

I want that black shirt. Maybe I'll make one myself. :D

[Jester]

Take it from me that shirt doesn't age well...mine looks very distressed...and I didn't wear it all that often.

[kelligrafie]

From a UK fan's perspective, I do recall seeing 2003 merchandise in the bigger UK retail stores. It wasn't on the same level of Nickelodeon = MIKEY'S FACE ON EVERY OBJECT KNOWN TO MAN but I don't think they did too badly out of it. Then again I wasn't very interested in watching the 2003 series so I wasn't looking out for gear in the same way I do now (TMNT curtains anyone?)

Now that I've got 'back' into the franchise after 15 or years since the '87 series, I've had a few glances at 2003 episodes on youtube and I cannot get into it. I literally have no desire to watch it. And I am a full on tomboy, I used to love X-Men, Spiderman, Batman, all the 'boys' cartoons.

I have a feeling it's because I can't get used to the voice actors. I struggle with the first live action movie & 2007 CGI one for the same reason, even though I quite like them.

[BubblyShell22]

I have the playing cards, and so does my BF. I did have a 2K3 shirt that was brown and had all four Turtles on it, but I don't know what happened to it. I really do want to get a Nick TMNT shirt though.

[DarthEmpress]

The 2k3 series came out when I was in high school, but I didn't even know it existed until half-way through college. I saw a bit of it on TV and I was like, "why isn't April a reporter" and I turned it off instantly. I didn't even give it a chance because the show wasn't the show from my childhood. I remember saying, "wtf are they doing to me turtles" before I turned it off :3

I saw more promotional material for the 2007 movie than for the 2k3 series, and it wasn't until just last year that I actually saw both the 2007 movie and all of the 2k3 series. Once I started it, I couldn't stop. I started watching it because of the Nick show and also because I was intrigued that it was the closest "adaptation of the comics." Then I got into the comics and now I'm a big, big fan of the 2k3 series, much more so than the Nick show. I still really enjoy the Nick show and am looking forward to the rest of the series, but the 2k3 show really captured that serious side of the turtles that I never knew existed.

[CyberCubed]

I can't believe how many of you were so bothered by the 2k3 series being so different than the OT.

I was one of those original cartoon fans too, but when I heard the new cartoon was coming out and saw the first episode I loved it instantly. The 2k3 series felt exactly like Batman: TAS and Gargoyles to me when I saw the first episodes and I was hooked.

I was just so happy we had an action cartoon that fit in with the Batman/DC/Gargoyles stuff I had watched when I was younger.

[Konchadunga]

Of course, Batman was so successful that it wound up influencing the graphic novels on which it was originally based. The 2003 series, on the other hand, basically killed them--though I'm probably simplifying.

[CyberCubed]

Of course, Batman was so successful that it wound up influencing the graphic novels on which it was originally based. The 2003 series, on the other hand, basically killed them--though I'm probably simplifying.

Uh, what? What happened to Mirage has nothing to do with the 2k3 series.

[Slime State Alumni]

The 2k3 series came out when I was in high school, but I didn't even know it existed until half-way through college. I saw a bit of it on TV and I was like, "why isn't April a reporter" and I turned it off instantly. I didn't even give it a chance because the show wasn't the show from my childhood. I remember saying, "wtf are they doing to me turtles" before I turned it off :3

I saw more promotional material for the 2007 movie than for the 2k3 series, and it wasn't until just last year that I actually saw both the 2007 movie and all of the 2k3 series. Once I started it, I couldn't stop. I started watching it because of the Nick show and also because I was intrigued that it was the closest "adaptation of the comics." Then I got into the comics and now I'm a big, big fan of the 2k3 series, much more so than the Nick show. I still really enjoy the Nick show and am looking forward to the rest of the series, but the 2k3 show really captured that serious side of the turtles that I never knew existed.

I actually watched the stuff in high school as it aired and was pleasantly surprised it was attempting to be closer to the source material of the comics. That being said, after the first few seasons, I just completely lost interest.

[Coola Yagami]

I actually watched the stuff in high school as it aired and was pleasantly surprised it was attempting to be closer to the source material of the comics. That being said, after the first few seasons, I just completely lost interest.

Same. I knew the matrix was cool and all but all the references ruined the mirage storylines and seriously dates the show. There was no need to give shredder a power sword in the fight against Leonardo.

[CyberCubed]

Same. I knew the matrix was cool and all but all the references ruined the mirage storylines and seriously dates the show. There was no need to give shredder a power sword in the fight against Leonardo.

What on earth are you talking about? There was one matrix reference when Don refered to Leo as "Neo" and that's it.

How the hell does Shredder having a power sword reference the Matrix when an energy/power sword has been used in fiction since Star Wars?

[Leo656]

I think maybe some people were turned off by the "sci-fi-ness" in general. Didn't bother me but, full disclosure, I haven't seen most of those episodes in a loooooong time.

[CyberCubed]

I think maybe some people were turned off by the "sci-fi-ness" in general. Didn't bother me but, full disclosure, I haven't seen most of those episodes in a loooooong time.

Being bothered by the sci-fi in 4kids makes no sense as to how heavily the Nick show is in sci-fi. They fight Kraang aliens and mutants in 70% of the episodes so far, this is the most sci-fi version of the series yet.

[Andrew NDB]

The bread and butter and 95.5% of the audience (millions) that's making the Nick show thrive are little kids that have never seen any TMNT cartoons, to say nothing of one from 20 years ago.

So no. The current cartoon is not nominally succeeding more than 2K3 because it "gave fans what they wanted."

[Jester]

What on earth are you talking about? There was one matrix reference when Don refered to Leo as "Neo" and that's it.

How the hell does Shredder having a power sword reference the Matrix when an energy/power sword has been used in fiction since Star Wars?
There's also the time Donnie tried to Bo-spin Kick a group of Foot ala Neo...and failed miserably.

And he never said the Sword of Tengu was a Matrix reference, just that it was unnecessary...and it kinda was...what ever happened to that thing?

[Coola Yagami]

There's also the time Donnie tried to Bo-spin Kick a group of Foot ala Neo...and failed miserably.

And he never said the Sword of Tengu was a Matrix reference, just that it was unnecessary...and it kinda was...what ever happened to that thing?

The guardians themselves... And they even faded from the story once the movie hype died down...

[CyberCubed]

You're looking for things that aren't there.

[Coola Yagami]

You're looking for things that aren't there.

Trust me, they were there. And were uneccesary.

Stop fighting a losing battle. Nothing is gonna change my mind. I liked the first few seasons, especially the Mirage inspired stuff, only liked the Dark Turtles Fast Forward eps and most of Back to the Sewers. Other than that, no thanks. It didn't age well in my opinion, and I just don't really care all that much about it anymore.

I honestly liked the 2K3 show cause I was getting into the Mirage comics at the time and finding out more about them. Seeing some of the stories and Mirage-only characters like the Elite Foot, Karai, Nobody and Renet was cool for me so that more people can finally know where the Turtles really came from. Once they exhausted the comic material the rest was boring. Didn't care all that much about the Triceraton invasion, the Demon Shredder arc, most of Fast Forward. Or the pointless changes to the Mirage inspired stories.

There's no misinformation or bandwagon. It's just MY opinion. Back then the 80's show was the most awesome thing ever. Now we look back and see it's million and one flaws. I thought the 2K3 was aight due to the Mirage stuff and the actual martial arts action involved. Now I'm also looking back and seeing all the flaws 2K3 had as well, which were even more than the flaws I saw when it was new.

[CyberCubed]

That doesn't change the fact that most of the show was well written for the bulk of its run.

With the exception of a few dull fillers most of the show had plenty of strong arcs.

You probably haven't rewatched the show since it ended.

[Coola Yagami]

That doesn't change the fact that most of the show was well written for the bulk of its run.

With the exception of a few dull fillers most of the show had plenty of strong arcs.

You probably haven't rewatched the show since it ended.

Rewatching it is what pointed out all its flaws and 'trying too hard to be cool' and datedness that I didn't notice when I first saw it back then.

[CyberCubed]

Rewatching it is what pointed out all its flaws and 'trying too hard to be cool' and datedness that I didn't notice when I first saw it back then.

What is, "trying too hard to be cool" mean? Just because it wasn't based on comedy or ridiculous antics like the two other cartoons?

It was just a standard action show in the same manner as the DC superhero shows.

[Coola Yagami]

What is, "trying too hard to be cool" mean? Just because it wasn't based on comedy or ridiculous antics like the two other cartoons?

It was just a standard action show in the same manner as the DC superhero shows.

It's hard to describe. Just the overall vibe and tone of it. Like someone before me said, sometimes it seemed to try too hard to be serious that it came off as ridiculous instead. I also hate shows that try to be violent, but then don't go through with it due to censorship. Like Shredder's claws 'punching' the Turtles and such. If you can't show him actually slicing them up, have him do a kick instead. Then we have Karai impale Leo in the.... spirit? That could have been done so much better, even with censorship. If you can't go through with it, either work around it, or just do something else.

I DO give credit for them having bruises. Not many cartoons do that. Plus they have episodes when they're recovering from massive beatings, also rarely seen in cartoons, but hey, some injuries do take time to heal. Can't just get right back up and into the action as if nothing happened.

The DC show didn't have that vibe. But then again, it never focused on being cool or whatever. It just had well-written stuff based upon years of comics to draw from. Plus it did what it did without feeling the need to prove to itself that 'it isn't the Superfriends'. My main complaints with that was a serious lack of Hal Jordan (or Kyle Rayner) and the Flash being the idiot of the group. And the whole Bat Embargo thing that prevented anyone other than Batman from being in the show's later seasons.

Luckily the 2012 doesn't pull that BS, save that one scene with Xever (a scene where he ran at Leo with both knives, and for whatever reason Leo was knocked back as if he was punched) but so far I haven't seen any other examples.

[CyberCubed]

Never got that vibe, but Ok.

I bet 10 years from now when the Nick show ends and we get the next TMNT cartoon after this one, you'll look back at the Nick show and say, "Hey, this series is too childish, look at all its flaws!"

Just like you're doing now with the 2k3 series.

[Coola Yagami]

Never got that vibe, but Ok.

I bet 10 years from now when the Nick show ends and we get the next TMNT cartoon after this one, you'll look back at the Nick show and say, "Hey, this series is too childish, look at all its flaws!"

Just like you're doing now with the 2k3 series.

If it was childish (ala teen Titans Go) I wouldn't be watching it now. And I do see it's flaws. The main being storyline amnesia. The Turtles can have a big mission, but if the episode isn't about it, they're just chillin and forgetting all about it. Why was Don sitting on his ass until the others poked fun at his crush on April? If that's what it took for him to suddenly head out and rescue Kirby, they should have taunted him sooner. I bet some episodes will show April not even missing her missing mutated father unless the episode is directly about it. Hell, even if Squirrelanoids was meant to be episode 3, Don sure got over April hating them rather quickly.

Every show got its flaws. But I'm enjoying this show way better than 2K3. Maybe season 3 or 4 will also screw up. Maybe season 4 will force the turtles to become cyborgs or some crap to 'keep up the ratings', like they did with Red Sky and Fast Forward. Fast Forward was almost its last season since 4Kids didn't want to make a new season unless they found some new gimmick to exploit when suddenly they decided 'let's make them go through the internet!!!'. And as for the OT... it's the original, cartoon-wise anyways. That will never go away. But yeah, for me, 2K3 started off great, but just got too sloppy once they used up the Mirage stories, and even then the Mirage stories were handled badly. I'm glad I own the Mirage reprints to remind me how awesome they were.

And dude, remember this is my opinion. Not fact. I just see 2K3 in a much lower regard to the 2012 and the 80's one. It's not a matter of 'oh so if you think 2K3 sucks, then you much think 2012 will suck too eventually'. Get over it. So far it's lookin good, but who knows how season 3 will be?

[Avatar Yuffie]

I also find it sad 2k3 April finally wore a yellow jumpsuit because Uma Thurman's Kill Bill made it popular.

(coughandyetTurtlesForevermakesfunofitcough)

[CyberCubed]

4kids is the series that made black Baxter known to the public. Notice how people watching the Nick show aren't wondering why Baxter is black. I remember when 4kids was airing back in 2003 you saw threads like, "Why is Baxter black in this cartoon?" because people never read the comics back then.

4kids is the series that made Karai into Shredder's adoptive daughter, which continued in this show and in IDW. (albeit his grandaughter there)

4kids introduced Hun and Bishop, two incredibly popular villains that became a huge part of TMNT lore. Hun is the only cartoon character to actually debut in the Mirage comics, and now he's in IDW.

4kids made the Triceratons known to the public, as they only appeared in one episode of the original toon.

4kids did everything.

[Donatello19]

4kids is the series that made black Baxter known to the public. Notice how people watching the Nick show aren't wondering why Baxter is black. I remember when 4kids was airing back in 2003 you saw threads like, "Why is Baxter black in this cartoon?" because people never read the comics back then.

4kids is the series that made Karai into Shredder's adoptive daughter, which continued in this show and in IDW. (albeit his grandaughter there)

4kids introduced Hun and Bishop, two incredibly popular villains that became a huge part of TMNT lore. Hun is the only cartoon character to actually debut in the Mirage comics, and now he's in IDW.

4kids made the Triceratons known to the public, as they only appeared in one episode of the original toon.

4kids did everything.

You're right, those are actually some good points.

[Coola Yagami]

4kids is the series that made black Baxter known to the public. Notice how people watching the Nick show aren't wondering why Baxter is black. I remember when 4kids was airing back in 2003 you saw threads like, "Why is Baxter black in this cartoon?" because people never read the comics back then.

4kids is the series that made Karai into Shredder's adoptive daughter, which continued in this show and in IDW. (albeit his grandaughter there)

4kids introduced Hun and Bishop, two incredibly popular villains that became a huge part of TMNT lore. Hun is the only cartoon character to actually debut in the Mirage comics, and now he's in IDW.

4kids made the Triceratons known to the public, as they only appeared in one episode of the original toon.

4kids did everything.

Not really. You can only give credit to Hun and Bishop, and possibly the Triceratons since it doesn't look like this series plans to use them anytime soon.

This series was more than welcome to use Karai if they wanted, since she is as much of a Mirage character as Casey, Leatherhead and the Rat King.

I agree with Baxter, but it's the OT's fault anyway for making him white. Had they used a black Baxter in the 90's movies or new Mutation, people would be wondering about that as well. It doesn't change the fact that the Nick show would have made the black Baxter popular in modern media anyway.

2012 doesn't owe 4Kids anything, except for giving them the idea to make the Purple Dragons recurring characters.

And even if '4Kids did everything' that doesn't automatically make it a better show. If that was the case the OT would be the best show ever since if it weren't for them, none of us would even be here today.

The main basis of this thread is all the 1001 complaints about the 2K3 not throwing a fans a bone with the 80's show, and when they did it was usually a mean-spirited 'see how much cooler we are than them' kinda gag. I do give credit for making Gen dress up like Rocksteady though. At least noone said 'why are you dressed all lame' or anything.

This show strived to be its own thing, with its own new characters, plots, etc but STILL managed to throw 80's fans more than just a bone with Dimension X, the Technodrome, Metalhead, Mutagen Man, Slash, Pizzaface, the pizza obsession, the Mutagen (hell, they call it Mutagen and the Ooze to please both parties) and who knows what else they might toss in there in future seasons. All the while tossing in Karai and the Purple Dragons and some new characters.

I do believe 2K3 would have done way better if they at least threw in Slash in there, and not four stand-ins. I wouldn't be surprised if fans were excited when Leatherhead, Rat King and Usagi showed up since as far as they knew back then, they thought they were OT characters.

[tylerdavies]

I can't really say that the Nick cartoon is giving me exactly everything that I want but it is unique in it's own way. My big grip with it though is that there are times where, from my point of view, it tries to be a little too similar to the previous cartoons such as turning Baxter into a fly, bringing in the technodrome and Dimension X, making Hamato Yoshi's into Splinter again, making Mikey the butt of his brothers jokes (which is even amplified here), etc. I think when it tries to act on it's own, it does a fine job. I don't mind a few influences and I appreciate all the Easter eggs but it that's all it would rely on, then it's just nothing but a fan service show.

2k3 for me is a real love letter to the fans of the mirage comics.

I get the feeling that this version of the turtles is "love letter" to the 80's cartoon in that it features a lot of nods to the OT cartoon. I understand what you mean when you say it tries to be too similar to the 80's turtles. The way I look at it is this show is more of a refresher - bringing back a lot of the 80's show characters/settings/features and then the 2012 show makes it its own, which I feel works very well. I'm glad the 2012 show didnt go the 4kids/comics route otherwise I feel the 2012 show would have been too similar to 2003 show.

[snake]

4kids is the series that made black Baxter known to the public. Notice how people watching the Nick show aren't wondering why Baxter is black. I remember when 4kids was airing back in 2003 you saw threads like, "Why is Baxter black in this cartoon?" because people never read the comics back then.

4kids is the series that made Karai into Shredder's adoptive daughter, which continued in this show and in IDW. (albeit his grandaughter there)

4kids introduced Hun and Bishop, two incredibly popular villains that became a huge part of TMNT lore. Hun is the only cartoon character to actually debut in the Mirage comics, and now he's in IDW.

4kids made the Triceratons known to the public, as they only appeared in one episode of the original toon.

4kids did everything.
-Good point
-2012 does this differently
-Bishop hasn't appeared in anything else (yet)
-Plus they got a toy from the original line.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I get the feeling that this version of the turtles is "love letter" to the 80's cartoon in that it features a lot of nods to the OT cartoon. I understand what you mean when you say it tries to be too similar to the 80's turtles. The way I look at it is this show is more of a refresher - bringing back a lot of the 80's show characters/settings/features and then the 2012 show makes it its own, which I feel works very well. I'm glad the 2012 show didnt go the 4kids/comics route otherwise I feel the 2012 show would have been too similar to 2003 show.

Sort of like Batman: Brave and the Bold is to the 60s show. My preference is that a show based on a popular ip needs to stick out from their previous shows and find it's own identity as long as it sticks to the series core traits.

[Bauer536]

Guys! For Pete's sake! I didn't like the 2k3 series, but seriously. It doesn't matter which one was better. All the TMNT shows had flaws. EVERY TV show has flaws! This whole "2k3 is better/worse than 2k12" is getting ridiculous!:tgrumble:

[Coola Yagami]

Guys! For Pete's sake! I didn't like the 2k3 series, but seriously. It doesn't matter which one was better. All the TMNT shows had flaws. EVERY TV show has flaws! This whole "2k3 is better/worse than 2k12" is getting ridiculous!:tgrumble:

Not exactly what this thread was about...

[Garfield]

The bread and butter and 95.5% of the audience (millions) that's making the Nick show thrive are little kids that have never seen any TMNT cartoons, to say nothing of one from 20 years ago.

So no. The current cartoon is not nominally succeeding more than 2K3 because it "gave fans what they wanted."


I'm agreeing with this. most of this "success" is probably coming from the fact that its a cartoon on nickelodeon that children find fun to watch. Those children are the fans that make the real difference. The nostalgic 20/30 something year olds that are sucked into the program because of old ninja turtle quirks make up an extreme minority of the audience.

[Technogeek29]

I Notice 2k3's original idea's are more fondly looked upon then the Mirage adaptions of it. Bishop, Hun, SAINW, Battle Nexus (later appeared in vol 4) Anyone think it would've been more successful if it had did it's own thing?

Not saying it didn't do its own spin on the TMNT but what if it completly ignore the Mirage adaptions and just referenced it instead?

[Klunk1234]

I think it did. The Nick show is a mix of everything Original series, 2k3 and the comics. When the season 2 started it seems that the show was going to do a "remake" of the classic series with a lot of mutants. I hope the show gets better and no going downhill with a lot of ridiculous monsters.

[Warhorse]

4kids is the series that made black Baxter known to the public. Notice how people watching the Nick show aren't wondering why Baxter is black. I remember when 4kids was airing back in 2003 you saw threads like, "Why is Baxter black in this cartoon?" because people never read the comics back then.

4kids is the series that made Karai into Shredder's adoptive daughter, which continued in this show and in IDW. (albeit his grandaughter there)

4kids introduced Hun and Bishop, two incredibly popular villains that became a huge part of TMNT lore. Hun is the only cartoon character to actually debut in the Mirage comics, and now he's in IDW.

4kids made the Triceratons known to the public, as they only appeared in one episode of the original toon.

4kids did everything.

That worried me a little, I was just waiting for Mikey to have a kid with a Tricerton princess.

Well, I'm a fan. Since the OT, but then after I saw the 1990 movie (which was more based on the comics that I truly have not read word for word) I was spoiled from the 1990 movie, and that was my favorite incarnation of the boys. OT I stopped watching because then it got too childish and slapstick for me. Now, I caught 2k3 toon a few years later after it debut, as music videos fans would make on youtube, and I would catch episodes on YT or Hulu, but I would never be able to catch it on it's normal time (nor would I help since I wasn't a Nielsen member). I tried to buy the DVD's as I could, but then again, it was hard because they wouldn't sell them in chronological order, (this was frustrating in itself) So, I don't think it's not so much not giving/or giving what fans want (and what fans are we talking about here) but it just comes down to marketing. Face it, 4Kids did a horrible job marketing 2k3 toon.

[bwrosas]

60H2C28fgFQ


Is One TMNT Series Better Than The Other?

This is a question fans have been asking lately, and here I try to answer it

Comments are Welcomed

[Coola Yagami]

60H2C28fgFQ


Is One TMNT Series Better Than The Other?

This is a question fans have been asking lately, and here I try to answer it

Comments are Welcomed

Aaaaaand here we go again. Countdown for Powder.

[Warhorse]

I don't know which is better, I have to wait a few more years. I tend to catch a series after it's been on the air for 5 years first. So, Nick's toon has some catching up to do.

[ABrown]

Actually the 4Kids series gave me much more of what I was looking for in a TMNT series than Nick's series has. I prefer my TMNT to be like the "red sky" episodes of the original series, the first movie in 1990, the first five seasons of the 4Kids series, and the 2007 CGI movie. That's just how I prefer my TMNT.