Did the 2012 succeed more than the 2K3 cause it gave fans 'what they wanted?'

[Coola Yagami]

I was watching some eps of the 2002 He-Man cartoon and it reminded me of what some people thought of the TMNT from 2K3. Now any Technodromer knows the TMNT were a comic book first and 2K3 went the comics route and blah blah blah, but for the average joe, the TMNT did begin with the 80's show. Many of them felt alienated by the new show at the time.

Now compared to He-Man where it was basically the same set-up with updated more bad-ass characters and fighting scenes that weren't allowed back in the 80's, the 2K3 TMNT went their own route, and save a shot out here and there, Laird did whatever he could to avoid bringing in Bebop, Rocksteady, the Technodrome etc in a more bad-ass modern take. I remember He-Man fans that were also TMNT fans were somewhat disappointed the 2K3 TMNT wasn't a modern bad-ass version of the old show.

Now we have a new show, with more mutants, things like the Technodrome, Metalhead, the Rat King (in season 1, not like season 4 or whatever), Dimension X, re-naming the Utrons as The Kraang, as well as some of the comedy as well.

I'm not saying the 2K3 wasn't without its success, but is the 2012 knocking it out of the park by giving the fans what they wanted? A modern bad-ass update to their childhood show. The second season is already promising Slash, Mutagen Man and Baxter as a fly. And for the Mirage/2K3 fans we still have things like Karai, Leatherhead and the Purple Dragons. It just looked like this time they guys behind the show really paid attention to what fans wanted to see in a new TMNT show.

[Drose18]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

I was watching some eps of the 2002 He-Man cartoon and it reminded me of what some people thought of the TMNT from 2K3. Now any Technodromer knows the TMNT were a comic book first and 2K3 went the comics route and blah blah blah, but for the average joe, the TMNT did begin with the 80's show. Many of them felt alienated by the new show at the time.

Now compared to He-Man where it was basically the same set-up with updated more bad-ass characters and fighting scenes that weren't allowed back in the 80's, the 2K3 TMNT went their own route, and save a shot out here and there, Laird did whatever he could to avoid bringing in Bebop, Rocksteady, the Technodrome etc in a more bad-ass modern take. I remember He-Man fans that were also TMNT fans were somewhat disappointed the 2K3 TMNT wasn't a modern bad-ass version of the old show.

Now we have a new show, with more mutants, things like the Technodrome, Metalhead, the Rat King (in season 1, not like season 4 or whatever), Dimension X, re-naming the Utrons as The Kraang, as well as some of the comedy as well.

I'm not saying the 2K3 wasn't without its success, but is the 2012 knocking it out of the park by giving the fans what they wanted? A modern bad-ass update to their childhood show. The second season is already promising Slash, Mutagen Man and Baxter as a fly. And for the Mirage/2K3 fans we still have things like Karai, Leatherhead and the Purple Dragons. It just looked like this time they guys behind the show really paid attention to what fans wanted to see in a new TMNT show.

No its cuz its on nick and all u 2k12 dickriders don't say I'm wrong

[Technogeek29]

Depends some of the reasons most don't like the 2k3 show are the most dumbest of reasons. Shredder kills his minion's, Raph isn't a jokester, April isn't as hot,This show is ripping off the original cartoon,Its always night time, They should just use the original theme song blah blah moan whine!!!!

Yeah stuff like that shows up more times than you think.

[JTH]

Originally Posted by Joshdonnie

No its cuz its on nick and all u 2k12 dickriders don't say I'm wrong

I'm not gonna say you're wrong, but saying it's only giving credit because of the network it's on is jack*** dumb.

The show succeeds more because it's geared to a younger audience, period. It being on Nick is irrelevant. It's no secret that Ninja Turtles biggest boom took place when it was geared as a kid's show, so that's obviously the direction they took. but the show could have been put on any network that airs Saturday Morning Cartoons to accomplish that.

[Drose18]

Originally Posted by Technogeek29

Depends some of the reasons most don't like the 2k3 show are the most dumbest of reasons. Shredder kills his minion's, Raph isn't a jokester, April isn't as hot,This show is ripping off the original cartoon,Its always night time, They should just use the original theme song blah blah moan whine!!!!

Yeah stuff like that shows up more times than you think.

FINALLY someone agrees with me!

[CyberCubed]

I know its a cliche to say it, but this thread needs to be locked. The show is more popular simply because its airing on Nick, one of the most popular kids channels. Nick is also promoting the hell out of it.

The 2k3 series aired on an obscure Saturday morning block that didn't even exist all throughout the U.S. on the Fox network. Many people who had Fox didn't even get the 4kids cartoon block.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I know its a cliche to say it, but this thread needs to be locked. The show is more popular simply because its airing on Nick, one of the most popular kids channels. Nick is also promoting the hell out of it.

The 2k3 series aired on an obscure Saturday morning block that didn't even exist all throughout the U.S. on the Fox network. Many people who had Fox didn't even get the 4kids cartoon block.

You should be locked. I'm glad you're not a mod. Every third thread would be locked and anyone downing the 2K3 show would have been banned.

[Jester]

Yeah if, "This thread should be locked!" is becoming a cliche, it's because you say it on the regular.

[Refractive Reflections]

I think we should ask:
Is the Nick show really catering to the older fans, or is the Nick show simply using particular characters and aspects of the TMNT franchise that worked, and trying it out on a whole new generation that is oblivious to TMNT? Because let's face it, the show is for children, and not for us (teenagers and adults).

Even though this show is using certain TMNT elements that worked, the Nick show has to be very prudent in just how much they allow into it, otherwise the Nick series could be critically viewed as more of a "tribute" series than an "original" series, unlike the situations with the OT and 4Kids were. I'm concerned the Nick series is already using too many OT elements, and this is coming from a big OT fan.

The only strong unique Nick aspects of the show I'm noticing are: most of the characters being teenagers (i.e. April, Karai, and Casey) or having tweenage/teenager personalities (with the Turtles), the abundance of mutants (so soon in the series), and maybe Kraang Prime (I'm sure CyberCubed can debate on this for pages...).

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Many of them felt alienated by the new show at the time.

Now compared to He-Man where it was basically the same set-up with updated more bad-ass characters and fighting scenes that weren't allowed back in the 80's, the 2K3 TMNT went their own route, and save a shot out here and there, Laird did whatever he could to avoid bringing in Bebop, Rocksteady, the Technodrome etc in a more bad-ass modern take. I remember He-Man fans that were also TMNT fans were somewhat disappointed the 2K3 TMNT wasn't a modern bad-ass version of the old show.

...Really? ...They were disappointed? Being an OT fan, I would have rather the 2K3 series either continue the OT series, or completely do its own separate storytelling, which it did. I mean why retell the same exact script all over again, if the twists and turns are going to be too predictable? Well whatever...

[Drose18]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

...The show is more popular simply because its airing on Nick, one of the most popular kids channels. Nick is also promoting the hell out of it...

Agreed

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

..The 2k3 series aired on an obscure Saturday morning block that didn't even exist all throughout the U.S. on the Fox network...

Lesser known would be better than obscure and not to mention it changed channels half way through its run.

[NinjaMan]

I can only speak for myself, but for me I find it much better than the 03 series. Nick version seems more lively. 03 was bland to me.

[n-zero]

Originally Posted by JYX

I think we should ask:
Is the Nick show really catering to the older fans, or is the Nick show simply using particular characters and aspects of the TMNT franchise that worked, and trying it out on a whole new generation that is oblivious to TMNT? Because let's face it, the show is for children, and not for us (teenagers and adults).

I'd say the new series hits the "Pixar Point," where it is fun enough for kids, but also smart enough for adults to be able to enjoy.

The classic series was clearly for kids.

2K3 was clearly for older fans, but was more Mirage focused to the point of not cashing in on any classic series nostalgia.

Next Mutation was trying too hard to be Power Rangers.

NickTurtles simply casts a wider net, and is run by people talented enough to pull it off.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by JYX

...Really? ...They were disappointed? Being an OT fan, I would have rather the 2K3 series either continue the OT series, or completely do its own separate storytelling, which it did. I mean why retell the same exact script all over again, if the twists and turns are going to be too predictable? Well whatever...

A little. Like I said this was coming from a forum about He-Man, but dealing with fans from both franchises. The He-Man show dealt with the heroes preventing Skeletor from conquering Castle Greyskull, just like the old show. However, it was updated, characters were changed and/or improved, the villains were more competent (Evil Lyn in particular) and didn't have the 80's cheese and censorship.

So these same fans also expected to see the Turtles face Shredder and Krang in the Technodrome and whatnot, but with the kick-ass martial arts action that the 80's wouldn't allow due to budget and censorship, and some were disappointed when the show was so completely different and missing what they felt were some of the core characters (remember, people that don't know the Mirage comics existed).

Any TMNT story has the same basic story, the Turtles fight Shredder and meet April along the way. It's just how you execute it and the characters you introduce that makes it different.

In a way, this is similar to Dragonball Kai and FMA Brotherhood came out roughly at the same time (at least in Japan). Both were remakes, but Brotherhood was favored more since it was a new story and completely redrawn as opposed to Kai just reusing the same old 90's footage and animation. He-Man was a remake, TMNT was a whole new interpretation based on the comics. Those expecting it to be a modern remake were disappointed.

[Shark_Blade]

I'd say yes to 2k12 cause I grew up with OT.

I like 2k3 too but I was not following the comics at the time, and I believe most of the casual viewers were too. So it pretty much dampened my enjoyment a bit. I was hoping for something familiar to appear in the show - like Bebop and Rocksteady to show up, Baxter mutating into a fly (in a darker tone perhaps), etc but none of that happened. Them turning Shredder into a lame Utrom was the last straw for me and I left the show completely. I felt so betrayed.

Only recently that I read the Ultimate Collection comics that I found my appreciation for 2k3, there was so much faithful references to the comics which is wonderful! I'm currently watching the 2k3 show again. Still a bit miffed by Utrom Shredder, but it has a lot of other good things to offer. For example: Usagi Yojimbo.

So yeah, thanks to the re-release of Ultimate Collection comics, I'm a 2k3 fan again despite preferring OT much more.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Jester

Yeah if, "This thread should be locked!" is becoming a cliche, it's because you say it on the regular.

How many threads do we need where people constantly say over and over again that the 4kids series wasn't popular?

Its like every other day now people bring up the 4kids series as some unpopular middle child show. Its disgusting and it needs to stop, the show was critically acclaimed by the fanbase.

[Jester]

You're a real champion for free speech, you know that?

[Avatar Yuffie]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

In a way, this is similar to Dragonball Kai and FMA Brotherhood came out roughly at the same time (at least in Japan). Both were remakes, but Brotherhood was favored more since it was a new story and completely redrawn as opposed to Kai just reusing the same old 90's footage and animation. He-Man was a remake, TMNT was a whole new interpretation based on the comics. Those expecting it to be a modern remake were disappointed.

The first FMA anime series divulged and created itself new original characters (Sloth for example) and a completely different ending with Bones' interpretation what the Door and the Philosopher's Stone. Hiromu Arakawa gave her blessings for the changes.

Brotherhood was favored the most because it followed the manga. Around that time the original source finished it's story, and Brotherhood is the more faithful adaptation.

As for 2k12... well, IIRC people who made the show were fans/grew up with the OT. It'd make more sense they'll put in badass adaptation interpretation of the Turtles they remember for the young 'ins.

[Konchadunga]

There's two ways to look at this show's use of the OT elements, and its success. The first view is that it used them to bring back a lot of fans of the OT, and it succeeded because these people hold onto their nostalgia, while at the same time having expectations that are much higher today. The second view is that this show decided to recycle elements from the OT; similar to how the 2003 show recycled elements from the Mirage series, and this one was more successful because most stuff from an adult-ish graphic novel has to be dumbed down for kids; whereas most stuff from a more conservative era's cartoon can actually be improved.

Either way, I never really stopped hearing nostalgic old fans pour their derision on the 2003 series as long as it was on. It led to some rather embarrassing reviews of Turtles Forever, and not even just the negative ones; people acting like they shouldn't have to recognize Karai and Ch'rel and thus are entitled to make "what the Hell" digs them, and that gives you a good time frame for how persistent the animosity toward the 2003 series was.

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by n-zero

I'd say the new series hits the "Pixar Point," where it is fun enough for kids, but also smart enough for adults to be able to enjoy.

The classic series was clearly for kids.

2K3 was clearly for older fans, but was more Mirage focused to the point of not cashing in on any classic series nostalgia.

Next Mutation was trying too hard to be Power Rangers.

NickTurtles simply casts a wider net, and is run by people talented enough to pull it off.

You could argue it was for the "older fans", but I would say that 2K3's grittiness was more or less following the trend of darker storytelling for cartoons (during the 90s and early 00s), and while having looser censorship rules, it was an opportune time to introduce a substantially more serious depiction of the Turtles that Mirage storytelling could provide.

As much as we may want to assume the 2K3 cartoons was for "us" (those that grew up with the OT), it was primarily entertainment for children at that time (with it being designated as a "kids cartoon"). The advertisers are far more concerned about the kid demographic watching the cartoon (which influences the longevity of the series) rather than us "older fans" viewing the cartoon.

[Konchadunga]

Don't forget that the new toyline was selling very well, even before the show debuted. Don't forget that Peter Laird got paid millions for the license. Don't forget that Playmates has held onto it, even through the rough times. What does this tell you? Nostalgia is never out of their mind entirely, and it may, in fact, be increasing.

Something that I've been noticing these days is that the conventional archetype of the Yuppy is becoming extinct. It was a product of an era where getting ahead in life was a matter of driving your car to some bloated corporation, and dressing and acting in accordance with how a rigidly-defined culture said. Similarly, media was limited to a few official channels. These days, gas is becoming prohibitively expensive, the ongoing expanse of Internet is dooming the conventional office environment, and there's an increase in work-from-home opportunities that mean you don't need to conform as much as you used to. Almost everyone owns a computer, and a phone that functions as one, and via these, they have access to a wider array of culture than their forebears. In essence, the new young professional class is what older generations would call "nerds." Nobody's got a legitimate claim that we shouldn't follow Ninja Turtles and the like, when we can make money just blogging about them. It would be foolish to think the business world is ignorant of these new developments.