Why should the TMNT act like normal human teenagers?

[Andrew NDB]

(I will paraphrase from another thread, as I think this is worthy of its own)

I don't understand the need and want in more recent media and from latter day writers on things like Tales V2, the IDW stuff (though the IDW almost gets a pass because in that, the Turtles are reincarnations of little Feudal Japan human boys... though that in itself should almost make them more alien) and the Nicktoon to write the Turtles as being normal human teenagers... when they are anything but.

You know, they did not attend George Middleton Elementary. They did not go to Prom with little Suzie. They did not cheat on their homework off of Randy Brenner's paper. They did not get sent to the principal's office for being unruly in class, or rack their brains for weeks on their senior thesis.

No, they were basically "born" and raised in a sewer, cut off and isolated from mankind, to one day go above ground and assassinate a guy. Their "education" is a lifelong course in ninjitsu... that's it. While their age may be teenage, that kind of seems incidental to me -- they would not have had anything remotely resembling a normal human teenaged sensibility and it's weird that anyone would think that they would or should.

Do you agree they should be portrayed as normal human teenagers who just happen to be Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Do you think that aspect should be dialed back?

[Lord Nightwalker]

You have a very valid point. Their isolation may actually have been beneficial to them by allowing them to be themselves. It gave them the freedom to just be.

Didn't matter what Richie rich kid or his financially superior parents said.
Didn't matter what Bruno the bully said. There wasn't a Bruno the bully. No cliques, no per pressure, no one mocking them for liking something they didn't like. Only the strict tutelage of Splinter and the art of Ninjutsu.

Kind of makes me wonder. Good topic Andrew.

[Powder]

We're led to believe that besides Splinters influence, their personalities were crafted by American pop culture. Cable TV, comic books, etc. I think that would make them considerably more human & teen-like. I like it to be somewhere in the middle as far as being separate from our society vs being brought up on it. One example that comes to mind is the first episode of the OT. The turtles use urban slang and yet when they're in Aprils apartment they don't know what half the appliances around her are, lack proper etiquette, etc.

[Jester]

Somewhere in the middle makes sense to me, really. I mean, they aren't "normal human teenagers" but they are still young, and there are certain tenancies that come with youth the Turtles should exhibit.

Mirage Turtles are the only ones raised as "Splinter's Little Assassins" and even later issues ret-conned that to make Splinter a bit more well rounded and less of a guy who only really used the Turtles to fight his battles.

The other series they are young students of Ninjitsu who only eventually have to face down Shredder. It's not what they were trained for, it was mostly a defense because of their freakish appearance. But in those series they are still young, and should have some teenage tenancies. Does that mean text books and Sadie Hawkins' Dances? No. Does it mean looking to have fun despite their circumstance and having a possibly rebellious streak? In my mind, yes.

[Jester]

I'm also not a fan of Splinter using the turtles, and them strictly having one goal in their life being Splinter's assassins. It makes the turtles less heroic, and makes Splinter kind of selfish himself, also very manipulative.
Which may have been the intention when TMNT was a 1 issue series. Make the whole morality of it very grey.

[Leo656]

Very interesting point, Andrew, and I concur, to a point. The fact the TMNT were not raised in an environment like normal teenage human beings means they probably would not act in the stereotypical "teenage" manner. As you said, their upbringing and lifestyle was fairly isolated and strict, so I would imagine they would be a bit more "grown up" and maybe a bit overly serious, compared to most teenagers. If you figure their only exposure to the outside world and pop culture for several years was the little bit they would have been able to see on a half-busted, thrown-out TV that Donnie had fixed up, even their fascination with skateboarding and Mikey's need to speak like Bill and Ted really makes little to no sense, realistically.

That's why I'm not as big a fan as some others of the way they are portrayed in Nick. To me, the fact they "Finally act like teenagers" makes them seem, in some ways, kind of dumbed-down. Their upbringing wouldn't naturally lead to them being quite so goofy and immature. If anything, it makes more logical sense for them to be quite a bit more mature and serious, generally speaking. That's why it never once bothered me when they were portrayed that way; to me, it just made more sense.

However, studies show that when you're younger the parts of your brain that control impulsive behavior and rational decision-making have not fully developed yet, so having them be a bit impulsive and overly-aggressive, like teenagers, makes perfect sense in its own way. But I don't think having them be stereotypically "teenage" with the implicit immaturity, etc., makes much sense.

[CansecoBat]

Great thread discussion from OP. Also great posts from Powder, Jester, and Leo656. My post from another thread:

Having to be raised in the harsh realities of living underground and learning to survive. The outcast nature of their situation should give them significant maturity.

In addition to the ninja training, which preaches responsibility, maturity, and obedience ... you'd think they would be more mature.

Not to say TMNT shouldn't be funny, or cut up and act their true age on occasion. Because they absolutely should, that's why they're "teenage mutants" and it's one of the endearing levity aspects to their characters individually and as a superhero team. It's why they're likable and not just basic ninjas.

Sometimes in the Nick show they come off as being too young. Not teenagers, but almost like tweens. Middle school aged ninja turtles. Middle school aged kids are more annoying than entertaining. I feel like the OT got their age, intelligence, humor, and maturity just right for teenagers. I felt the 2k3 show they were WAY too adult and serious. 2012 Nick toon it's like they're too young.

And I agree, it alienates me sometimes. I love the idea of accentuating their youthful age, and growth with time into more maturity. It's interesting, sure. We also get these awesome character moments. Like their first encounter with the surface, or with pizza, etc.

But sometimes it seems like they're purposely being portrayed as being too cute, too young, too ignorant of things even though it seems like they have TVs and their vernacular and personality seemingly is derived of contemporary realities of the world above the sewers.

In the Nick show they come off as almost cuddly in a sense. Even visually they are presented that way. Like stuffed animals, who just happened to be trained in elite lethal arts.

That's not my type of Ninja Turtles.

I prefer their lovableness come from their character, and individual personalities. The focus on the familial unit of being strong together to defeat life's obstacles they will face. Visually I still like them looking cool, threatening, freak-ish and at times border line scary.

Which may have been the intention when TMNT was a 1 issue series. Make the whole morality of it very grey.
Agreed, probably didn't bank on the longevity of it.

[Andrew NDB]

Agreed, probably didn't bank on the longevity of it.

Though I don't think longevity of the core material necessitates the dumbing down of the Turtles to be normal, relateable teenagers who just happen to practice ninjitsu and battle ninjas to the death when they're not holed up in the sewer (beyond the needs of a children's cartoon spinoff, of course).

While I wholly appreciate that the Turtles in whatever off hours Splinter would have allotted them would probably have an array of pop culture to immerse themselves in from old magazines they find and TV... their training and Splinter's strict tutelage would have largely trumped the greater influence of that out of the forefront. This is a guy who, in the source material, made it his life's work to raise these Turtles to kill a guy... he's probably not going to f*** around in keeping them focused.

[Jester]

Stop being such a Mirage Supremacist, Andrew...

[Andrew NDB]

Another, maybe better question to be asked:

Does making the TMNT act more like normal human teenagers make the TMNT a better comic/cartoon/movie? And why, beyond reasons of relatability to you or I or Joe Q teenager?

[Leo656]

I'd argue no, not "better". More relatable for kids and some viewers, yeah. But other than making them a little bit more immature and less intelligent, I'm not sure what else could come of them being more like "real teenagers". Like even a normal teenager Donnie's age that was a genius by teenage standards couldn't come up with half the stuff he does. That's just one example.

[Jester]

Like even a normal teenager Donnie's age that was a genius by teenage standards couldn't come up with half the stuff he does. That's just one example.
To be fair, most people in Donnie's situation couldn't come up with half of what he comes up with.

[Leo656]

Good point. It's why I kinda like him better as portrayed in the movies, where he's more of a Mr. Fixit with a bit of advanced knowledge of science, but not like Einstein-level intelligence or anything.

[Jester]

Good point. It's why I kinda like him better as portrayed in the movies, where he's more of a Mr. Fixit with a bit of advanced knowledge of science, but not like Einstein-level intelligence or anything.
Yeah...more realistic. I think that's another take away from Mirage. That Donnie wasn't THAT crazy tech-savy.

Oddly enough the Donnie I like the most (or maybe 2nd most now behind Nick's Rob-atello), the 4kids, Donnie is probably the worst when it comes to pulling advanced (I mean even more advanced than the technology around him) tech straight out of his shell. If one thing bothered me about the 4Kids series it was that.

[Candy Kappa]

This is a guy who, in the source material, made it his life's work to raise these Turtles to kill a guy... he's probably not going to f*** around in keeping them focused.

But, you also have to give your students time off, time to heal whatever that have been injured during training. Which gives them the time to get influenced through various media.

Seeing how Splinter waited 13 years until the turtles skills were at their peak, he wouldn't rush them. it is after all a task they have to be successful the first try, there aren't an abundance of mutants to train.

But, in most other incarnations, Splinter is more raising the turtles as his own children, living in peace and secretly away from the world. Which gives the turtles even more freedom to be influenced teenager-y by things as TV, comic books and magazines.

[Refractive Reflections]

I've addressed this issue in previous posts before, that the Turtles (in any version), can't be the fully stereotypical human teenagers we normally associate with:

These Nick Turtles are probably more teenagerish than I would expect with crime-fighters, and not always in the best way (i.e. the Turtles' lack of sympathy for Timothy in "The Pulverizer Returns" episode). But as I mentioned before in previous threads, these instances can be used to show how dramatically the Nick Turtles will mature through subsequent seasons. Also I have to consider that these Nick Turtles were sheltered from the outside world for nearly 15 years, so... **shrug**

I could tolerate and accept the OT and 2K3 Turtles as being teenagers (excluding the voices though), because I assumed that their brutal fighting experiences in the past had matured them at a much faster rate than other teenagers at that age. It's because I had a few friends who grew up in the crime-rampant inner city who were teenagers, in which their experiences forced them to mature leaps ahead than their more sheltered, secured peers residing in the middle-class/affluent suburbs.

Well, I know its only kids cartoons :P, but as for how sheltered the OT and 4Kids Turtles really were before their adolescence is always debatable. (I mean in the 4Kids series the Turtles snuck out to meet Casey Jones, what's to say they didn't sneak out again? :ohwell:)
But anyways, I'm just generally speaking and not necessarily about the Turtles in which I'm sure that whoever goes out in the dead of night and involves themselves into possible lethal street fights would immediately be struck with the harsh reality of the cruelty of the criminal underworld, and would be forced to mature quickly if they wanted to survive. Therefore, I somewhat applied it to the OT and 4Kids Turtles, that their lack of teenage behavior didn't bother me if they were constantly associating themselves in this criminal underworld.

But yeah, I know they're all cartoons for kids. :P I wasn't trying to make the Turtles characters (OT or 4Kids) unnecessarily tragic, just more or less if they are fighting with lethal street thugs/enemies constantly, you can't expect any "over-the-top" childish/teenage behavior to last too long (but it doesn't mean they have to always be grim and serious). But all I was trying to convey was that the OT and 4Kids Turtles' lack of teenage behavior, and "young adult" behavior (?) could be believable in their teenage years because of their unique experiences (compared to their human peers), but whatever... :ohwell:

So in other words, the Turtles' life perspective and exposure would be many years ahead of their human teenage peers, but their interests/hobbies could still be teenager-inclined for the most part.


I'd argue no, not "better". More relatable for kids and some viewers, yeah. But other than making them a little bit more immature and less intelligent, I'm not sure what else could come of them being more like "real teenagers". Like even a normal teenager Donnie's age that was a genius by teenage standards couldn't come up with half the stuff he does. That's just one example.
Good point. It's why I kinda like him better as portrayed in the movies, where he's more of a Mr. Fixit with a bit of advanced knowledge of science, but not like Einstein-level intelligence or anything.
Yeah...more realistic. I think that's another take away from Mirage. That Donnie wasn't THAT crazy tech-savy.

Oddly enough the Donnie I like the most (or maybe 2nd most now behind Nick's Rob-atello), the 4kids, Donnie is probably the worst when it comes to pulling advanced (I mean even more advanced than the technology around him) tech straight out of his shell. If one thing bothered me about the 4Kids series it was that.


Leo656 and Jester, you guys are too disillusioned with the dumb teens we see in the news and YouTube. :P
You'd be surprised how smart teenagers can be, and if they really applied themselves. As these articles show here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57606924/teen-scientist-may-have-invented-cancer-test/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/07/neha-ramu-teen-with-a-hig_n_3404115.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/11/jacob-barnett-autistic-14-year-old-nobel-prize_n_3254920.html
http://milwaukeecourieronline.com/index.php/2012/02/11/african-american-youth-invents-surgical-technique-at-age-14/

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Yeah...more realistic. I think that's another take away from Mirage. That Donnie wasn't THAT crazy tech-savy.

Oddly enough the Donnie I like the most (or maybe 2nd most now behind Nick's Rob-atello), the 4kids, Donnie is probably the worst when it comes to pulling advanced (I mean even more advanced than the technology around him) tech straight out of his shell. If one thing bothered me about the 4Kids series it was that.

A lot of kids' cartoons with multiple main characters had one who could invent a lot of things on the fly. Why not on the 1987 cartoon? Though to its credit, Donatello wasn't always able to make his devices work, or save the day with them. One example being his inability to replicate the missing piece from the medi-laser to rescue Splinter.

[pannoni1]

Remember, teenage Turtles are different than teenage humans, so it works best to have some relate-able traits, but not overly done. That time in your life is generally between the imagination peak (later childhood/pre-Teen) and executing creativity (twenties). But despite that, they are still mutants and no matter their age, unless if enough humans can give them support (April/Casey Jones to begin with), they will have to stay within the code of Splinter and their supporters. That's why they are mostly outside at night when most of the public sleeps and only go to trusted locations such as the pizzeria. But Splinter usually has lots of educational material, as seen in the OT's intro story, and the Turtles can use that, along with any pop cultural elements such as media and entertainment to enhance their quality of life. Then you had in the OT people masks in order to emulate a human. At the end of the day, what matters is that the Turtles don't commit any violence on anybody that opposes violence.

[BabyTurtles]

They're already giant talking ninja turtles XD I have no problem with them acting like crazy teens.

I figured they learned stuff from TV, which is very influential
oh and internet...can't forget the internet
http://media.tumblr.com/87eb7bdb5bf7269298360e147d8b7b32/tumblr_inline_mna3wzN7Re1qabo4g.gif

so yea...I'm okay with the turtles acting like teens :3 it's kinda fun to watch in a way.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

They're already giant talking ninja turtles XD I have no problem with them acting like crazy teens.

I figured they learned stuff from TV, which is very influential
oh and internet...can't forget the internet
http://media.tumblr.com/87eb7bdb5bf7269298360e147d8b7b32/tumblr_inline_mna3wzN7Re1qabo4g.gif

so yea...I'm okay with the turtles acting like teens :3 it's kinda fun to watch in a way.

The Internet didn't exist (or at least, wasn't available to the general public) at the time the OT was created.

And if the name says they're teenagers, well, why not have them adapt some "teenage" characteristics?

[BabyTurtles]

The Internet didn't exist (or at least, wasn't available to the general public) at the time the OT was created.

And if the name says they're teenagers, well, why not have them adapt some "teenage" characteristics?

TV existed right? :) that's already good enough. Internet is just an added boost.
XD

what do you mean teenage characteristics?? :-? like the way they look? cause they can't change that.

[909 Turtle Fan]

I choose some where in the middle. I think they have to be relatable to younger viewers cause "teenage" is in the name of the group. But I also think that no matter what kind of influence you grow up with, comics, tv, movies, etc, that boys will be boys. No matter where you go in the world, brothers are always going to tease and prank each other. There is always going to be the brotherly rivalry of who is tougher, smarter, or funniest. That should be the main thing that is comparable to human teens , not Mike using trendy slang or listening to an ipod.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

what do you mean teenage characteristics?? :-? like the way they look? cause they can't change that.

Question effectively answered by 909 Turtle Fan.

[DarthEmpress]

At first, I liked how the turtles were being portrayed in the Nick series, but now I think they went way too far with the whole "they're teenagers!" thing. It's almost as if the writers are trying a bit too hard to showcase their adolescence. I think it's good to explore the youthful side of the turtles and their curiosities outside of Splinter's training, but there's a point where gaining maturity needs to be consistent. In the 2k12 series, I've witnessed a lot of potential for growth among the turtles that is either completely forgotten/ignored in the next episode or never comes full circle. It's very disappointing, but they did this a bit in the 2k3 series as well, although I didn't mind it considering I found the turtles' portrayals to be consistent and logical (thank you, Mr. Laird) unlike with the Nick series.

I think the turtles being raised cut off from interacting with humans is something that should affect them socially; not so much in the spectrum of maturity because I find that largely depends on an individual's personality, like how Leo's quiet nature lends him to being more introspective and mature rather than Mikey's boisterous, light-hearted attitude.

I also really love Splinter being obsessed with avenging Hamato Yoshi and raising his children as assassins. I think that side of him has so much juicy character potential to be explored and makes the TMNT storyline more gray than black and white, which is something it's been lacking for a while, I think.

[Warboss74]

Yeah...more realistic. I think that's another take away from Mirage. That Donnie wasn't THAT crazy tech-savy.

Oddly enough the Donnie I like the most (or maybe 2nd most now behind Nick's Rob-atello), the 4kids, Donnie is probably the worst when it comes to pulling advanced (I mean even more advanced than the technology around him) tech straight out of his shell. If one thing bothered me about the 4Kids series it was that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought most of the stuff Donnie created was explained as being reversered engineered from utrom technology.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Actually, I have to agree with that thought- most of what he built in the 4Kids show was based on Utrom tech. That made more sense to me than some of the things he came up with in the OT- like that personality modifier or his food revivafier.

As for making them "normal teenagers" in personality, I'd think it would be somewhat like a bunch of normal teens stuck on a deserted island, forced to use their wits and skills to survive while still keeping some semblance of a normal life and family. The only difference is they've been RAISED in that kind of isolation and harsh environment. However, given that they have ALWAYS had access to whatever form of media was available in any given time (that includes magazines, movies, music, and newspapers, BTW!!) they SHOULD have a decent grasp on what a "normal" life is like. They can watch TV, sneak out to see movies, read tossed-out mags and newspapers, or listen to the radio to learn what life is like outside the lair. I seriously doubt Splinter (outside of the original Mirage issues) would neglect their "normal" education, either. He would have taught them to read, write, math, etc- if only because ninjas have to be able to understand their surroundings and blend in to complete their goals.

[Rooish]

I always thought it was weird how obsessed people are with how the 2k12 turtles act like "normal" teenagers. They act like "normal" white middle class American teenage boys who are particularly annoying to each other, which is a little odd when they were were raised in isolation by a strict Japanese possibly Buddhist ninja master. Frankly I acted nothing like any of them as a teenager.

Kids still related to them in the Old Toon when they didn't act like "normal" teenagers.

[BubblyShell22]

I like how they act like teenagers in the Nick show as you have to realize that teenagers today are very different from when a lot of us were growing up. They don't learn from their mistakes right away, and I like how the Nick Turtles have this as well. It does make them more flawed in that they are still learning and haven't quite gotten to that stage where they can learn from their mistakes once they make them. I know a lot of fans are annoyed by this, but I like it because it does make them seem more relatable. Heck, there are even adults who don't learn from mistakes all of the time, so for the Turtles to do this, too, is actually a good thing. I'm sure they will mature and grow as the season progresses, but it'll take time.

So, yeah, I don't mind them being portrayed as teenagers one bit.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I think it's because in most incarnations outside mirage, they weren't being raised and trained to kill shredder. The ninjitsu was taught to them as a means to protect themselves from a hostile world that wouldn't understand them, not so they could live thier lives as fully trained ninja assassins. And that strict sensei/father realized that the true ninja way of life had gotten him/his master Yoshi burned (at least in some incarnations) and he wants to let the turtles live as normal of childhoods/teen years as possible for sewer-dwelling mutant freaks. Note the tvs and video games that line the lair in many versions, it could be argued a true ninja sensei might possibly forbid or at least minimize most of these distractions from their training. (though even then, they would still need some outlet.)

[MiBs]

For me, it is definitely the animations that makes me think of them as younger than in OT and 2k3. The first thing I thought, when I saw the turtles in the first Nick episode, was that they actually looked like teenagers this time.

I don't know, if I would have the same feeling of them being "normal teenagers" in a way, if they were looking more buff or edgier but still acting totally the same as they do now

[Avatar Yuffie]

I don't see anything wrong with they act like teenagers.

Nick Splinter was human. It would make sense he'd try to raise them as human kids. The fact they're mutants and must be hidden away while not really cut off from stuff like computers, tvs and internet to shape them emotionally should help the suspension of disbelief that "they must be more mature".