Why should the TMNT act like normal human teenagers?

[Andrew NDB]

(I will paraphrase from another thread, as I think this is worthy of its own)

I don't understand the need and want in more recent media and from latter day writers on things like Tales V2, the IDW stuff (though the IDW almost gets a pass because in that, the Turtles are reincarnations of little Feudal Japan human boys... though that in itself should almost make them more alien) and the Nicktoon to write the Turtles as being normal human teenagers... when they are anything but.

You know, they did not attend George Middleton Elementary. They did not go to Prom with little Suzie. They did not cheat on their homework off of Randy Brenner's paper. They did not get sent to the principal's office for being unruly in class, or rack their brains for weeks on their senior thesis.

No, they were basically "born" and raised in a sewer, cut off and isolated from mankind, to one day go above ground and assassinate a guy. Their "education" is a lifelong course in ninjitsu... that's it. While their age may be teenage, that kind of seems incidental to me -- they would not have had anything remotely resembling a normal human teenaged sensibility and it's weird that anyone would think that they would or should.

Do you agree they should be portrayed as normal human teenagers who just happen to be Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? Do you think that aspect should be dialed back?

[Lord Nightwalker]

You have a very valid point. Their isolation may actually have been beneficial to them by allowing them to be themselves. It gave them the freedom to just be.

Didn't matter what Richie rich kid or his financially superior parents said.
Didn't matter what Bruno the bully said. There wasn't a Bruno the bully. No cliques, no per pressure, no one mocking them for liking something they didn't like. Only the strict tutelage of Splinter and the art of Ninjutsu.

Kind of makes me wonder. Good topic Andrew.

[Powder]

We're led to believe that besides Splinters influence, their personalities were crafted by American pop culture. Cable TV, comic books, etc. I think that would make them considerably more human & teen-like. I like it to be somewhere in the middle as far as being separate from our society vs being brought up on it. One example that comes to mind is the first episode of the OT. The turtles use urban slang and yet when they're in Aprils apartment they don't know what half the appliances around her are, lack proper etiquette, etc.

[Jester]

Somewhere in the middle makes sense to me, really. I mean, they aren't "normal human teenagers" but they are still young, and there are certain tenancies that come with youth the Turtles should exhibit.

Mirage Turtles are the only ones raised as "Splinter's Little Assassins" and even later issues ret-conned that to make Splinter a bit more well rounded and less of a guy who only really used the Turtles to fight his battles.

The other series they are young students of Ninjitsu who only eventually have to face down Shredder. It's not what they were trained for, it was mostly a defense because of their freakish appearance. But in those series they are still young, and should have some teenage tenancies. Does that mean text books and Sadie Hawkins' Dances? No. Does it mean looking to have fun despite their circumstance and having a possibly rebellious streak? In my mind, yes.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by CansecoBat

I'm also not a fan of Splinter using the turtles, and them strictly having one goal in their life being Splinter's assassins. It makes the turtles less heroic, and makes Splinter kind of selfish himself, also very manipulative.

Which may have been the intention when TMNT was a 1 issue series. Make the whole morality of it very grey.

[Leo656]

Very interesting point, Andrew, and I concur, to a point. The fact the TMNT were not raised in an environment like normal teenage human beings means they probably would not act in the stereotypical "teenage" manner. As you said, their upbringing and lifestyle was fairly isolated and strict, so I would imagine they would be a bit more "grown up" and maybe a bit overly serious, compared to most teenagers. If you figure their only exposure to the outside world and pop culture for several years was the little bit they would have been able to see on a half-busted, thrown-out TV that Donnie had fixed up, even their fascination with skateboarding and Mikey's need to speak like Bill and Ted really makes little to no sense, realistically.

That's why I'm not as big a fan as some others of the way they are portrayed in Nick. To me, the fact they "Finally act like teenagers" makes them seem, in some ways, kind of dumbed-down. Their upbringing wouldn't naturally lead to them being quite so goofy and immature. If anything, it makes more logical sense for them to be quite a bit more mature and serious, generally speaking. That's why it never once bothered me when they were portrayed that way; to me, it just made more sense.

However, studies show that when you're younger the parts of your brain that control impulsive behavior and rational decision-making have not fully developed yet, so having them be a bit impulsive and overly-aggressive, like teenagers, makes perfect sense in its own way. But I don't think having them be stereotypically "teenage" with the implicit immaturity, etc., makes much sense.

[CansecoBat]

Great thread discussion from OP. Also great posts from Powder, Jester, and Leo656. My post from another thread:

Originally Posted by CansecoBat

Having to be raised in the harsh realities of living underground and learning to survive. The outcast nature of their situation should give them significant maturity.

In addition to the ninja training, which preaches responsibility, maturity, and obedience ... you'd think they would be more mature.

Not to say TMNT shouldn't be funny, or cut up and act their true age on occasion. Because they absolutely should, that's why they're "teenage mutants" and it's one of the endearing levity aspects to their characters individually and as a superhero team. It's why they're likable and not just basic ninjas.

Sometimes in the Nick show they come off as being too young. Not teenagers, but almost like tweens. Middle school aged ninja turtles. Middle school aged kids are more annoying than entertaining. I feel like the OT got their age, intelligence, humor, and maturity just right for teenagers. I felt the 2k3 show they were WAY too adult and serious. 2012 Nick toon it's like they're too young.

And I agree, it alienates me sometimes. I love the idea of accentuating their youthful age, and growth with time into more maturity. It's interesting, sure. We also get these awesome character moments. Like their first encounter with the surface, or with pizza, etc.

But sometimes it seems like they're purposely being portrayed as being too cute, too young, too ignorant of things even though it seems like they have TVs and their vernacular and personality seemingly is derived of contemporary realities of the world above the sewers.

In the Nick show they come off as almost cuddly in a sense. Even visually they are presented that way. Like stuffed animals, who just happened to be trained in elite lethal arts.

That's not my type of Ninja Turtles.

I prefer their lovableness come from their character, and individual personalities. The focus on the familial unit of being strong together to defeat life's obstacles they will face. Visually I still like them looking cool, threatening, freak-ish and at times border line scary.

Originally Posted by Jester

Which may have been the intention when TMNT was a 1 issue series. Make the whole morality of it very grey.

Agreed, probably didn't bank on the longevity of it.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CansecoBat

Agreed, probably didn't bank on the longevity of it.

Though I don't think longevity of the core material necessitates the dumbing down of the Turtles to be normal, relateable teenagers who just happen to practice ninjitsu and battle ninjas to the death when they're not holed up in the sewer (beyond the needs of a children's cartoon spinoff, of course).

While I wholly appreciate that the Turtles in whatever off hours Splinter would have allotted them would probably have an array of pop culture to immerse themselves in from old magazines they find and TV... their training and Splinter's strict tutelage would have largely trumped the greater influence of that out of the forefront. This is a guy who, in the source material, made it his life's work to raise these Turtles to kill a guy... he's probably not going to f*** around in keeping them focused.

[Jester]

Stop being such a Mirage Supremacist, Andrew...

[Andrew NDB]

Another, maybe better question to be asked:

Does making the TMNT act more like normal human teenagers make the TMNT a better comic/cartoon/movie? And why, beyond reasons of relatability to you or I or Joe Q teenager?

[Leo656]

I'd argue no, not "better". More relatable for kids and some viewers, yeah. But other than making them a little bit more immature and less intelligent, I'm not sure what else could come of them being more like "real teenagers". Like even a normal teenager Donnie's age that was a genius by teenage standards couldn't come up with half the stuff he does. That's just one example.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Like even a normal teenager Donnie's age that was a genius by teenage standards couldn't come up with half the stuff he does. That's just one example.

To be fair, most people in Donnie's situation couldn't come up with half of what he comes up with.

[Leo656]

Good point. It's why I kinda like him better as portrayed in the movies, where he's more of a Mr. Fixit with a bit of advanced knowledge of science, but not like Einstein-level intelligence or anything.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Good point. It's why I kinda like him better as portrayed in the movies, where he's more of a Mr. Fixit with a bit of advanced knowledge of science, but not like Einstein-level intelligence or anything.

Yeah...more realistic. I think that's another take away from Mirage. That Donnie wasn't THAT crazy tech-savy.

Oddly enough the Donnie I like the most (or maybe 2nd most now behind Nick's Rob-atello), the 4kids, Donnie is probably the worst when it comes to pulling advanced (I mean even more advanced than the technology around him) tech straight out of his shell. If one thing bothered me about the 4Kids series it was that.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

This is a guy who, in the source material, made it his life's work to raise these Turtles to kill a guy... he's probably not going to f*** around in keeping them focused.

But, you also have to give your students time off, time to heal whatever that have been injured during training. Which gives them the time to get influenced through various media.

Seeing how Splinter waited 13 years until the turtles skills were at their peak, he wouldn't rush them. it is after all a task they have to be successful the first try, there aren't an abundance of mutants to train.

But, in most other incarnations, Splinter is more raising the turtles as his own children, living in peace and secretly away from the world. Which gives the turtles even more freedom to be influenced teenager-y by things as TV, comic books and magazines.

[Refractive Reflections]

I've addressed this issue in previous posts before, that the Turtles (in any version), can't be the fully stereotypical human teenagers we normally associate with:

Originally Posted by JYX

These Nick Turtles are probably more teenagerish than I would expect with crime-fighters, and not always in the best way (i.e. the Turtles' lack of sympathy for Timothy in "The Pulverizer Returns" episode). But as I mentioned before in previous threads, these instances can be used to show how dramatically the Nick Turtles will mature through subsequent seasons. Also I have to consider that these Nick Turtles were sheltered from the outside world for nearly 15 years, so... **shrug**

I could tolerate and accept the OT and 2K3 Turtles as being teenagers (excluding the voices though), because I assumed that their brutal fighting experiences in the past had matured them at a much faster rate than other teenagers at that age. It's because I had a few friends who grew up in the crime-rampant inner city who were teenagers, in which their experiences forced them to mature leaps ahead than their more sheltered, secured peers residing in the middle-class/affluent suburbs.

Originally Posted by JYX

Well, I know its only kids cartoons , but as for how sheltered the OT and 4Kids Turtles really were before their adolescence is always debatable. (I mean in the 4Kids series the Turtles snuck out to meet Casey Jones, what's to say they didn't sneak out again? )
But anyways, I'm just generally speaking and not necessarily about the Turtles in which I'm sure that whoever goes out in the dead of night and involves themselves into possible lethal street fights would immediately be struck with the harsh reality of the cruelty of the criminal underworld, and would be forced to mature quickly if they wanted to survive. Therefore, I somewhat applied it to the OT and 4Kids Turtles, that their lack of teenage behavior didn't bother me if they were constantly associating themselves in this criminal underworld.

But yeah, I know they're all cartoons for kids. I wasn't trying to make the Turtles characters (OT or 4Kids) unnecessarily tragic, just more or less if they are fighting with lethal street thugs/enemies constantly, you can't expect any "over-the-top" childish/teenage behavior to last too long (but it doesn't mean they have to always be grim and serious). But all I was trying to convey was that the OT and 4Kids Turtles' lack of teenage behavior, and "young adult" behavior (?) could be believable in their teenage years because of their unique experiences (compared to their human peers), but whatever...

So in other words, the Turtles' life perspective and exposure would be many years ahead of their human teenage peers, but their interests/hobbies could still be teenager-inclined for the most part.

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'd argue no, not "better". More relatable for kids and some viewers, yeah. But other than making them a little bit more immature and less intelligent, I'm not sure what else could come of them being more like "real teenagers". Like even a normal teenager Donnie's age that was a genius by teenage standards couldn't come up with half the stuff he does. That's just one example.

Originally Posted by Leo656

Good point. It's why I kinda like him better as portrayed in the movies, where he's more of a Mr. Fixit with a bit of advanced knowledge of science, but not like Einstein-level intelligence or anything.

Originally Posted by Jester

Yeah...more realistic. I think that's another take away from Mirage. That Donnie wasn't THAT crazy tech-savy.

Oddly enough the Donnie I like the most (or maybe 2nd most now behind Nick's Rob-atello), the 4kids, Donnie is probably the worst when it comes to pulling advanced (I mean even more advanced than the technology around him) tech straight out of his shell. If one thing bothered me about the 4Kids series it was that.

Leo656 and Jester, you guys are too disillusioned with the dumb teens we see in the news and YouTube.
You'd be surprised how smart teenagers can be, and if they really applied themselves. As these articles show here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_16...d-cancer-test/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3404115.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3254920.html
http://milwaukeecourieronline.com/in...que-at-age-14/

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by Jester

Yeah...more realistic. I think that's another take away from Mirage. That Donnie wasn't THAT crazy tech-savy.

Oddly enough the Donnie I like the most (or maybe 2nd most now behind Nick's Rob-atello), the 4kids, Donnie is probably the worst when it comes to pulling advanced (I mean even more advanced than the technology around him) tech straight out of his shell. If one thing bothered me about the 4Kids series it was that.

A lot of kids' cartoons with multiple main characters had one who could invent a lot of things on the fly. Why not on the 1987 cartoon? Though to its credit, Donatello wasn't always able to make his devices work, or save the day with them. One example being his inability to replicate the missing piece from the medi-laser to rescue Splinter.

[pannoni1]

Remember, teenage Turtles are different than teenage humans, so it works best to have some relate-able traits, but not overly done. That time in your life is generally between the imagination peak (later childhood/pre-Teen) and executing creativity (twenties). But despite that, they are still mutants and no matter their age, unless if enough humans can give them support (April/Casey Jones to begin with), they will have to stay within the code of Splinter and their supporters. That's why they are mostly outside at night when most of the public sleeps and only go to trusted locations such as the pizzeria. But Splinter usually has lots of educational material, as seen in the OT's intro story, and the Turtles can use that, along with any pop cultural elements such as media and entertainment to enhance their quality of life. Then you had in the OT people masks in order to emulate a human. At the end of the day, what matters is that the Turtles don't commit any violence on anybody that opposes violence.

[BabyTurtles]

They're already giant talking ninja turtles XD I have no problem with them acting like crazy teens.

I figured they learned stuff from TV, which is very influential
oh and internet...can't forget the internet


so yea...I'm okay with the turtles acting like teens :3 it's kinda fun to watch in a way.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Originally Posted by BabyTurtles

They're already giant talking ninja turtles XD I have no problem with them acting like crazy teens.

I figured they learned stuff from TV, which is very influential
oh and internet...can't forget the internet


so yea...I'm okay with the turtles acting like teens :3 it's kinda fun to watch in a way.

The Internet didn't exist (or at least, wasn't available to the general public) at the time the OT was created.

And if the name says they're teenagers, well, why not have them adapt some "teenage" characteristics?