"Why my Turtlez has lips?" - An Explainer

[Cipher]

Pulling this out of the other design thread so we can all read it, discuss it, collectively wipe our brows and get on with our day.

We've recently seen a picture of what is purported to be a leaked design for Michelangelo in the form of an early Halloween costume ad. Predictably, this has led to many complaints, by far the stupidest of which is that he has "lips."

So, here it is. Why your Turtles have lips:

The Turtles might have something resembling lips because you absolutely need those muscles to make any sounds remotely resembling English phonemes.

In cartoons, you can get away with lip-sync because it doesn't need to look realistic. The Nicktoons models can be flat-faced and lipless all day long because, at the end of the day, as long as their mouth makes a vaguely convincing shape that corresponds to the correct sound, you'll buy that it's what they're saying.

In a "realistic" movie, that doesn't quite fly. You need those muscles there because, if we're to accept that these mutant, humanoid Turtles created through alien science are capable of speaking our language, they need them. And we've never had anything close to resembling an actual attempt at lip-sync in a live-action Turtle film before.

So, yeah, sorry. Lips. And I'm all aboard the "beak-faced, Zulli-esque monstrosity" train for any future incarnation that wants to ride it. It's just that, not only is this not a bad alternative, it actually makes more sense.

Also, they have nostrils so they can breathe.

Discuss with the utmost alarm and hyperbole.

FIRST-POST ADDENDUM

The first movie turtles didn't have lips, they talked just fine and it looked awesome, cg cartoon turtles didn't have lips...

I've seen this about a dozen times today, so let's break it down again:

The Turtles of the '90s movies get by largely because they're practical effects. There's no lip sync going on whatsoever, though. A CGI model in a live-action movie with that level of facial leeway would look jarringly cartoony (the old costumes are basically mouth open, mouth shut, and one or two other pre-set facial reactions).

CG cartoon Turtles work because they are in a (hyper-stylized, no less) cartoon. See chrisdude's post on the second page.

[Anton Chigurh]

...........dang........

[Blossombrooks]

Well colour me stupid if you like but as I pointed out in the other thread I don't believe that's the reason. Those lips are there to represent the actor behind him, it's a defining characteristic which will help each of the turtles carry a unique look. I agree it will help with making the speech look realistic but I don't have to like it, some things I like about it others I don't.

[bridgegrn]

Eh. I understand the logic behind it, I just don't like the way it looks. Classic look all the way for me.

[Cipher]

Well colour me stupid if you like but as I pointed out in the other thread I don't believe that's the reason. Those lips are there to represent the actor behind him, it's a defining characteristic which will help each of the turtles carry a unique look. I agree it will help with making the speech look realistic but I don't have to like it, some things I like about it others I don't.
This is also a fair, practical reason, and I'm guessing both motivations played a part in the design. You need human facial elements for realism; might as well reflect and use more detailed motion-capture from the actors.

[1984TMNT]

And as I mentioned in the other thread:

I think they could easily make the mouth move in the exact way it needs to without "puffed" out lips. Just because in reality, an animal would need full on lips to pronounce English words doesn't mean those same lips need to be shown or rendered exactly the same way.

The point is that these are mutants and don't need to look exactly like humans, even when talking. As you stated earlier, as long as their mouth moves in generaly accepted motions that coincide with certain words, it would be believable enough.

Obviously, we have different opinions on it - and it really is hard to tell without actual visuals to compare. It's a subjective call at best.

[Andrew NDB]

My question is: why do they even need to sound like normal humans speaking in flawless English?

I think if they talked in raspy voices and broken words, strained pronunciations that'd be kind of cool and unique.

[turtlefanforever]

Your arguing that the computerized turtles from the show can get away with not having lips but te computized turtles in the movie can't. Care to explain?

[CyberCubed]

Making excuses for bad designs makes no difference. You know they only gave them lips so one of the Turtles can have a make out scene with Megan Fox.

You heard it here first.

[Andrew NDB]

It actually reminds of the reports of the initial pitches for the first Turtles movie. You know, where it would be Billy Crystal and 3 other comedians with their faces painted green.

But no, nothing that has leaked about any facet of this movie would lead me to believe anything they're doing with the Turtles' (designs or otherwise) is with any kind of earnest intention of making them more "realistic." If they're putting lips on them it's so that they can look cuter, more marketable and more like the actors "playing" them.

[turtlefanforever]

Making excuses for bad designs makes no difference. You know they only gave them lips so one of the Turtles can have a make out scene with Megan Fox.

You heard it here first.

You're still on that man? I mean I wouldn't put it past him but are you prepared for the sh*tstorm you're gonna get it if doesn't happen? It'll be worse than what you're getting now. I don't see why you have to turn this thing into a soft core porno.

[Andrew NDB]

Making excuses for bad designs makes no difference. You know they only gave them lips so one of the Turtles can have a make out scene with Megan Fox.

You heard it here first.

http://t.fod4.com/t/73453730cc/c480x270_102.jpg

[Bob]

This is the original Transformers film discussion all over again, regarding Optimus Prime having lips. Takes me back. TBH, I didn't care then and I care less now.

[turtlefanforever]

The first 3 and the next mutation did fine actually. So did 'TMNT' you don't need huge lips or lips at all. They're talking turtles. How realistic can it be?

[xChri5x]

Jodie Foster won an Oscar without lips. :P

[xChri5x]

http://oi44.tinypic.com/ravmaf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0C5x6CJ.jpg

[Slap-Happy]

http://oi44.tinypic.com/ravmaf.jpg
Wtf. That's the most horrifying thing I've ever seen on this forum.

[Roseangelo]

The turtles have more-pronounced lips than I do.

[Powder]

Screw that logic. Their design is a far cry from realistic. & if you're gonna try to justify things that way, it better go across the board. If a sequel comes out and additional mutants aren't botox lipped beasts, then the turtles didn't have to be either.

[Cipher]

My question is: why do they even need to sound like normal humans speaking in flawless English?

I think if they talked in raspy voices and broken words, strained pronunciations that'd be kind of cool and unique.
Hey, man. I'd be all for it. Like I said, I hope we one day see some pale, monstrous, fear-of-the-uncanny Zulli style designs.

But it should be obvious that was never the direction they were going to go in for this movie. And, historically, the Turtles have sounded like normal humans speaking flawless English.

This is the original Transformers film discussion all over again, regarding Optimus Prime having lips. Takes me back. TBH, I didn't care then and I care less now.Well, maybe. Because the designs were also the only things I liked about the Transformers movies.

Also, I think people are exaggerating the hugeness of the lips?

Also, also, re: below: thank you.

[chrisdude]

http://i.imgur.com/lTiF5BP.jpg

See how the opening of Mikey's mouth completely changes size while he talks, but he's not puckering? If this wasn't a cartoon, it would look ludicrous. Only an anus can pucker without lips.

[TurtleMikey]

Why is it that when people look at this mask, they see this:

http://www.pics22.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/big-lips.jpg

Really....... the lips on this turtle are barely noticable.

Its only the strong curve on the underside of the bottom lip that make them visable at all.

The lips are so damn thin, that it really isn't visably different than the classic designs other than that it doesn't have a pronounced snout.

[The Stryker]

Yo. Seriously.

The lips are barely there.

[CyberCubed]

The horrible nostril and lips design was done for two reason:

1. They want the real-life actors faces to be recognizable on the TMNT. In fact they look human now with green skin instead of turtle faces.

2. Megan Fox is probably going to have a make out scene with one of the Turtles, judging by those set-pics its likely going to be Raphael. She needs something to kiss.

As for Cipher's other points they all feel very, "apologist" as in he's trying to make the best out of a bad situation. But this is just asinine, everything about this movie is asinine.

Between this and a white 60 year old crusty Eric Sachs Shredder...this movie is an abomination.

[Cipher]

As for Cipher's other points they all feel very, "apologist" as in he's trying to make the best out of a bad situation.
http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/vp/image/1381/35/1381358491061.gif

I will be here next week when you deliver a realistic design that could be animated to plausibly pronounce English words without involving some form of lips.

Guys, I don't even like this movie. I have said almost nothing to defend it before, except of the "Well, it might as well be what it is" variety. I just think the complaints surrounding the design, particularly this element of it, are the dumbest.

[CyberCubed]

We don't need realism. It never bothered me the way the turtles mouths moved in the live action movies, or the CG in the 4th movie, or the Nick show.

The Turtles don't even look like the turtle anymore. They literally look like humans with green skin and a shell on their back. Between their human faces and that clothing, you can tell what they were going for. It has nothing to do with how they would speak.

But then again we still have to deal with white man Shredder, so this all boils down to an epic disaster.

At this point I'd welcome Venus de Milo back into the fold, she certainly couldn't make this movie any worse. Perhaps Megan Fox will get mutated into her.

[TurtleMikey]

The horrible nostril and lips design was done for two reason:

1. They want the real-life actors faces to be recognizable on the TMNT. In fact they look human now with green skin instead of turtle faces.

2. Megan Fox is probably going to have a make out scene with one of the Turtles, judging by those set-pics its likely going to be Raphael. She needs something to kiss.

As for Cipher's other points they all feel very, "apologist" as in he's trying to make the best out of a bad situation. But this is just asinine, everything about this movie is asinine.

Between this and a white 60 year old crusty Eric Sachs Shredder...this movie is an abomination.

........ Yeah. You're clearly just someone clamoring for a reason, any reason (no matter how minute) to hate this film.

Probably because Bay's name is attach. Even if just as a Producer.

[Aelia]

Alright, but what shade of lipstick do you think would look good on him?

[CyberCubed]

........ Yeah. You're clearly just someone clamoring for a reason, any reason (no matter how minute) to hate this film.

Are you being serious?

1. Humanoid turtles with ugly designs

2. White man Eric Sachs Shredder

3. Original script that was leaked was horrible

4. Turtles originally had alien origins (and maybe still do?)

5. Megan Fox was a bad choice for April


And this is just what we know so far, let alone how bad the script could be.

[Cipher]

The first movie turtles didn't have lips, they talked just fine and it looked awesome, cg cartoon turtles didn't have lips...
This is dumb and you should feel dumb for typing it.

Alright, but what shade of lipstick do you think would look good on him?
Fuschia.

But I doubt the fandom is ready for Teenage Mutant Cross-Dressing Turtles and I don't want to poke that hornets' nest.

[The Stryker]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....

[turtlefanforever]

If u want green humans just say so. Their lips are very prominent. You'd think for 150 mil you'd get a better product considering the first movie was made with only thousands

[The Stryker]

If u want green humans just say so. Their lips are very prominent. You'd think for 150 mil you'd get a better product considering the first movie was made with only thousands

Nobody has seen the movie yeeeeeettttt.......

[TurtleMikey]

1. Humanoid turtles with ugly designs

Matter of opinion. Objectively, and subjectively speaking, it isn't bad. It looks a Ninja Turtle, more than most other realistic designs do. So, why bitch?

2. White man Eric Sachs Shredder

Another matter of opinion/taste. Depending on the back story they give him, and the portrayal, it could be just as good as if it was a Japanese, or any Asian actor, portraying the character.

3. Original script that was leaked was horrible

The original script wasn't NEARLY as bad as people say it was. The worst part was the strange origin they gave everyone which, admittedly, absorbed the 3rd act.

However, the script has been radically changed, and is now heavily based on the Fred Wolf series (With the original origins restored). Though w/ some visual elements retained, and certain sequences retained.

4. Turtles originally had alien origins (and maybe still do?)

I stated it above, the Utrom/Kraang Ooze origin has been restored.

5. Megan Fox was a bad choice for April

Actually, she is a good fit. At least, if you consider that her April is being based on the Fred Wolf April O'Neil, who didn't have much character depth and was known primarily for her looks.

And as far for Fred Wolf April's character arc, as a reporter who is underestimated for being female and hot, that's perfect for Megan Fox because that's, more or less, her real life.

And one would be full of **** to say that it isn't.

[Aelia]

Fuschia.

But I doubt the fandom is ready for Teenage Mutant Cross-Dressing Turtles and I don't want to poke that hornets' nest.

The whole world isn't ready for the Teenage Mutant Cross Dressing lifestyle! And fuschia? With THAT orange? Puh-leeeeze.

My mother is a saint and you just insulted someone's family over Turtle lips.

Turtle lips are serious business and should be handled seriously.

[Cipher]

The whole world isn't ready for the Teenage Mutant Cross Dressing lifestyle! And fuschia? With THAT orange? Puh-leeeeze.
You're right and I'm actually kind of embarrassed about that. Then again, Mike never was one for fashion.

[Bob]

Why hasn't this clown been banned yet? Honestly, he should have gone the way of the dodo a long time ago.

[Aelia]

You're right and I'm actually kind of embarrassed about that. Then again, Mike never was one for fashion.

Still wouldn't stop him from trying to start a trend. :lol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Still wouldn't stop him from trying to start a trend. :lol:

Personally, I think he'd go for a darker shade, probably more of a plum or a dark wine. Mikey's pretty savvy when it comes to what's cool and trendy, plus he would want a shade that brings out his eyes. Since we all know he's the "pretty one".....

[hitmonkey]

They're giant talking mutant turtles who know martial arts and fight a clan on ninja based out of Manhattan. Why does that concept need to take realism so far that we analyze the science of their ability to speak? The lips look dumb on a Ninja Turtle.

[turtlefanforever]

They're giant talking mutant turtles who know martial arts and fight a clan on ninja based out of Manhattan. Why does that concept need to take realism so far that we analyze the science of their ability to speak? The lips look dumb on a Ninja Turtle.

Exactly what I'm saying!

[AquaParade]

I've never really felt like I was the odd man out here when it came to judging the quality of most tmnt productions.

The Fred Wolf cartoon was my first love yet it's just nostalgia to me now.

I love the Mirage comics and dig the IDW ones enough to keep following.

The first movie is a classic to me while the Next Mutation/TMNT Fast Forward are sort of embarrassing.

I'm totally looking forward to this movie and the design's are daring and full of potential.

[Aelia]

Personally, I think he'd go for a darker shade, probably more of a plum or a dark wine. Mikey's pretty savvy when it comes to what's cool and trendy, plus he would want a shade that brings out his eyes. Since we all know he's the "pretty one".....

A nice warm purple to contrast. I approve. :thumbsup:

To be serious for a bit though, I'll wait until I see the real designs in motion before giving it a miss. The Halloween costume is hilariously bad, but most movie costumes are.

[Andrew NDB]

They're giant talking mutant turtles who know martial arts and fight a clan on ninja based out of Manhattan.

Crisler's Law (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Crisler%27s%20Law&defid=6310979) rears its ugly head once again.

Never fails.

[psychturtle]

there are some suggesting that the costume may not look at all like the final product. I think recent history suggests otherwise. Either way, I bet we see them lipping off to shredder on few occasions.

[Refractive Reflections]

We don't need realism. It never bothered me the way the turtles mouths moved in the live action movies, or the CG in the 4th movie, or the Nick show.

The Turtles don't even look like the turtle anymore. They literally look like humans with green skin and a shell on their back. Between their human faces and that clothing, you can tell what they were going for. It has nothing to do with how they would speak.

But then again we still have to deal with white man Shredder, so this all boils down to an epic disaster.

At this point I'd welcome Venus de Milo back into the fold, she certainly couldn't make this movie any worse. Perhaps Megan Fox will get mutated into her.

So ironic the use of "realism" is applied here for the Turtles' visual design. If they were so concerned about realism, maybe they should have applied that to the script and scenes instead of that gaudy Turtle Van, the conspicuous, trenchcoat design in covering those massive Turtles that anybody could see from a block away, and with...

I could go on and on about the contradictions... :lol:

[CyberCubed]

This movie has me shocked and appalled. As well as flabbergasted and traumatized.

I guess this is what it feels like to have one of your childhood franchises completely torn apart and sent back at you with a dagger in the heart. Oh boy. :roll:

[Eterniandreams]

Lizard in the Spiderman Movie didnt have fat lips and he could speak fine..

[Kendamu]

It might just be the quality of the costume, but the lips seem kind of creepy to me. I ended up making a joke about it on my video regarding the whole thing. Skip to 1:45 for said joke.

uSwyhvljYo4?t=1m45s

[AquaParade]

Perhaps we will also get a look at some type of "Shredder" costume. I can only imagine how silly it might look.

Still, I'm one of the few on here who think's this design is bold and carries a lot of potential. It's all perspective. A few points to keep in mind...

- Currently, the biggest piece of the Ninja Turtle franchise is airing on a children's network.
-The last several TMNT movies were terrible toddler romps compared to what they could have been, yet were still financially successful enough to warrant more of the same.
- There is probably due pressure to sell tons of toys/licensing deals to go along with this film.

Despite these facts that we've been fairly aware of since the selling of the turtle franchise to Nickelodeon, they are apparently still attempting to give us something a little more edgy or outside the box than what we are used to when we mix Hollywood with our favorite green comic characters.

I know it would be great to get that type of Batman Begins thoughtfulness and reverence for the source material up on the screen. But, what we may get is the most daring TMNT film since the first and a huge step in acknowledging that Ninja Turtles have an adult audience out there.

[Kendamu]

Going from that perspective, I'm actually somewhat curious about the fight scenes in this film. Will they actually approach something deserving of a group of Ninja?

[Refractive Reflections]

Despite these facts that we've been fairly aware of since the selling of the turtle franchise to Nickelodeon, they are apparently still attempting to give us something a little more edgy or outside the box than what we are used to when we mix Hollywood with our favorite green comic characters.

I know it would be great to get that type of Batman Begins thoughtfulness and reverence for the source material up on the screen. But, what we may get is the most daring TMNT film since the first and a huge step in acknowledging that Ninja Turtles are not just for young children.

I wish this same amount of energy in making these Turtles look flamboyantly "bad ass", was put toward its storywriting and characters (which miraculously could happen, but I'm not holding my breath or anything). I mean the first movie had cartoonish looking Turtles, but the depth and darkness of the storywriting was able to transcend the cartoonish looking visuals, and it was received fairly well for its premise and movie censorship rating.

But I guess we can only wait and see how things develop, right? :ohwell:

[Matches Malone]

If u want green humans just say so. Their lips are very prominent. You'd think for 150 mil you'd get a better product considering the first movie was made with only thousands

Wha? Thousands? This isn't Paranormal Activity. The budget was 13.5 million.

[Candy Kappa]

Giving the turtles lips in this movie, prominent or not they are most likely gonna be there, I just hope they don't stick out as a sore thumb like the child's costume's mask do.

You don't need lips on a cgi character to make it appear to be speaking perfect English, that is a silly and a unimaginative way of thinking.

[nimajneb]

I'm happy to reserve judgment, I just want to see the Turtles on the big screen - the mean green teens will hopefully rock regardless of a bit of clothing and some human qualities ie lips.
I'm so used to seeing them have some bit of clothing when they're moving incognito I can look past it - and in 30 years of turtles almost all the action figures are wearing some stupid costume anyway (Bar undercover Don, thats not stupid; he's just AWESOME)

[TurtleMikey]

Going from that perspective, I'm actually somewhat curious about the fight scenes in this film. Will they actually approach something deserving of a group of Ninja?

Jonathan Liebesman, the director, said that they'd being using 'The Raid: Redemption' as inspiration for the fight sequences and stuntwork.

[Galactus]

Despite these facts that we've been fairly aware of since the selling of the turtle franchise to Nickelodeon, they are apparently still attempting to give us something a little more edgy or outside the box than what we are used to when we mix Hollywood with our favorite green comic characters.

I know it would be great to get that type of Batman Begins thoughtfulness and reverence for the source material up on the screen. But, what we may get is the most daring TMNT film since the first and a huge step in acknowledging that Ninja Turtles have an adult audience out there.

I'm not sure how this is a sign of being "daring" or "edgy" to me it seems less like they're aiming for an adult audience but rather taking a juvenile approach. Like this is what Michael Bay thinks most teenagers dress like.

[AquaParade]

I'm not sure how this is a sign of being "daring" or "edgy" to me it seems less like they're aiming for an adult audience but rather taking a juvenile approach. Like this is what Michael Bay thinks most teenagers dress like.

I consider it daring and edgy because it is stepping way outside of the comfort zone that this franchise is used to when it comes to Hollywood. Say what you will but they definitely didn't go the "safe route" with this movie.

The fact that they are attempting to aim this film at a somewhat adult audience is huge for the franchise. Guys, girls, everyone here 15 years old and up...Producers behind tmnt films haven't even considered us a factor in the last two decades. I'm pretty glad to be part of the equation again.
This isn't me trying to be an apologist for the film by merely stating that is a stepping-stone to something greater, though. I am legit excited to see the product we will be getting.

[funksk8er]

First of all, this is my first post. After reading this, I just couldn't hold back. I needed to voice my opinion. I really wanted to wait and reserve my judgment on the designs until I actually saw the live action ones, but honestly, that is really difficult to do after getting an image like this. (It really makes me wonder how much faith Paramount has in these designs, waiting this long to show us anything. STILL waiting to show us anything.) So, unfortunately, I am basing everything I say off of this design. I understand its a kid's costume and it wont be "this bad," but for me, it doesn't change the fact that these turtles will have HUMAN LIPS.

There is absolutely no reason that the turtles should have lips. I think lips on, let's say, the Hulk from the Avengers movie, make sense. He is obviously Bruce Banner, a human, mutated into a Hulk. For him to lose those lips would look odd and silly, and at the end of the day, would make zero sense. If these turtles mutated from humans, it would make much more sense for them to have lips. (And maybe they ARE changing the origins to that story. If that's the case, we have way larger issues on our hands.) But for a turtle to GROW lips, it makes zero sense. Now I get it—they stand upright, and grow fingers and other human features. But they NEED those to function the way they do. They do not need lips to sell me on them being real. They are giant walking turtles talking with humans. It's something that is already unbelievable and something you don't see everyday. Them having HUMAN LIPS doesn't make me go, "Ohhh, okay. I get it! THEY ARE REAL."

Now, I get that doing lips via motion capture on the actors probably saves the animators a lot of time when it comes to doing dialogue. But you don't need that to make them realistic. The fact that these characters are a 100% CGI already will never make them as realistic as the physical Henson creations from the 90's. Yes, the Henson faces seem somewhat dated and unrealistic. But why not combine a Henson style body suit with a CG style face? I think Spike Jonze pulled this off nicely with Where The Wild Things Are. These creatures have some sort of lips (not all of them), but they are obviously not human mouths, and I believe every one of them when they talk. In my opinion, the studio and director should've gone this route. This, to me, would've sold the "REAL" factor. Not human lips.


Also, I know Michael Bay is producing this movie, and I am sure he steamrolls a lot of decisions on this film, but the end product, good or bad, lies with the director Jonathan Liebesman.

[Andrew NDB]

Going from that perspective, I'm actually somewhat curious about the fight scenes in this film. Will they actually approach something deserving of a group of Ninja?

Considering that they took away all the Foot Soldiers' ninja weapons and replaced them with guns, I'm venturing... no.

[Leo656]

Crisler's Law (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Crisler%27s%20Law&defid=6310979) rears its ugly head once again.

Never fails.

And I'll never fail to point out that your so-called "law" is some of the most pretentious bullsh*t I've ever seen. Stop it.

I absolutely love TMNT. I ADORE TMNT. It might be up there just behind Superman and Batman amongst my all-time favorite works of fiction. It's been one of the most positive and important things in my entire life from childhood to now. Let's first be clear on that.

You know what else TMNT is? Silly. Nonsense. Junk food. Escapism. A farce. It was never designed to be anything more than that. It's not even like Superman, where there's the inherent Christ/Moses metaphors for anyone who chooses to take it seriously, which were consciously put in by the creators from the beginning. Very little, if anything, about TMNT screams "dark and serious melodrama". In fact, I think the more serious it gets, the less entertaining it becomes. And I kind of think the type of fans who insist on injecting their dark, morbid and "serious" interpretation into it, kind of have insecurity issues. As if they, as adults, can't just like something silly and fun because it's silly and fun. There has to be something "deeper" or "more mature" to it.

Except that's not true at all. Projecting changes nothing. I love TMNT. TMNT is f*cking fake, it's a f*cking goofy concept, and no amount of super-serious posturing on the part of grown-ups who can't accept their own immaturity can change that. Be honest: If you had never heard of TMNT before, hadn't grown up lowing it, and someone just now tried to pitch the concept to you, it would be, by far, the dumbest thing you'd ever heard of. Because as terrific as it is, it's just... f*cking... stupid. Get over it. You're a grown man who's obsessed with silly, childish things that have absolutely zero inherent value past their ability to entertain. So f*cking what. Yeesh. It doesn't make you a bad person. Neither does being so damn pretentious all the time about a comic book, but seriously, man, let sh*t be what it is. Don't even try and pretend Peter and Kevin were not drunk and/or high as balls when they wrote that sh*t. Do not.

To clarify: I also hate super-goofy TMNT. I think it loses ALL of its universal appeal when it's played entirely for laughs, like "Next Mutation", or some of the lesser episodes of the OT. I hate both extremes, super-silly and super-serious. TNM was stupid and brain-numbing, while Mirage, with a few exceptions, just bores me to tears, especially Vol. 4 (or as I sometimes call it, "Laird's Mid-Life Crisis, In Print Form"). When I "see" TMNT in my head, it's more like the first movie as far as tone, taking itself semi-seriously yet still taking time to wink at the audience a little bit. The concept of TMNT is broad enough for lots of action, plenty of drama, and a lot of humor and silliness. Because it's not Hamlet, after all, it's friggin' Ninja Turtles. Ninja. Turtles.
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Anyway, more on-topic, this movie's going too far in the "stupid goofy" direction and I'm not a fan. The Turtle design, if real, is crummy. I don't particularly care if the details of the faces have a practical purpose, they don't quite look right. I'm almost positive it has less to do with "realism" or "practicality" - Let's be honest, no kid, or even an adult, is going to be in the theater thinking "Hey, Turtles can't talk, they don't have lips!" - and more to do with the studio feeling like it's a waste of money to hire semi-known actors and "hide" their faces behind costumes and CGI. I'd sort of agree: the better, cheaper option would've been to hire no-names to wear the suits (since stunt people do 90% of the heavy lifting anyway), have "names" do the voices, and let the Turtles' faces be more like what we're used to.

I mean, are these actors even really that well-known to merit seeing their faces (or even a CGI, "Turtlefied" version of them)? I don't think I can tell you one thing any of them has done. Changing the faces to suit the actors seems a waste. Especially since (like everything else about the movie) it's completely split the fanbase into about a million sub-factions. Ah well... if they did anything right with this movie at this point, it's probably ruin everything. :lol:

[1984TMNT]

They're giant talking mutant turtles who know martial arts and fight a clan on ninja based out of Manhattan. Why does that concept need to take realism so far that we analyze the science of their ability to speak? The lips look dumb on a Ninja Turtle.

Yep - again, I strongly believe that "actual lips" don't need to be on a CGI rendered ninja turtle in order to have them speak and the audience believe it. Realllllllllllllly smacks of desperation in trying to explain away an awful looking aesthetic choice.

[plastroncafe]

Real turtles don't have teeth! Gah! What crap kind of realism is this?!

/gnashes teeth/
/rends clothing/

[BabyTurtles]

...they are just lips.

guys....this movie is just another version of TMNT. Some people might like this version, some people might not.


I remember when 2012 TMNT came out.....I did NOT wanna like it! first it was in CGI and I didn't like how they all looked different, I also wasn't used to seeing their eyes (I only saw white before) but I decided to give it a chance anyway and it's now my favorite incarnation! so far.

so give this movie a chance. YES they have lips, it's different....theres ALWAYS gonna be something different when it comes to any reboot. White Shredder is also different, but different doesn't make it bad.

OT turtles? they were goofy! how'd you think mirage fans felt?

2003 turtles? it was darker! they had white for eyes? everything was more serious. How'd you think OT fans felt??

2012 turtles?? IT'S CGI!! They all look completely different from each other!! How'd you think 2003 fans felt?



look what I'm trying to say is....this movie WON'T ruin TMNT for you. It just might not be your cup of tea. Kids might see this movie and think it's the coolest thing since ever. Just like when you were all kids and loved the first TMNT movies.

or hey! you might end up liking it! like how I ended up liking 2012, but let's not write them off yet just because of some lips. It's a different style...a different TMNT.

[1984TMNT]

Real turtles don't have teeth! Gah! What crap kind of realism is this?!

/gnashes teeth/
/rends clothing/

Yeah - there are plenty of things that don't match up with the TMNT and real turtles. Nothing, and I mean nothing. HAS to be or not be there in order for the audience to believe they are mutated turtles (ok, maybe grren skin and shells) :) - other than that though, it's all about design choice.

[plastroncafe]

If memory serves Smaug from "The Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug" had lips as well, and dragons have no real "need" of them either. I'm pretty sure the monsters from "Where the Wild Things Are" didn't have specific lips in the children's book either, but they did in Spike Jones; movie.

It's probably a hold over of the motion-capture process. And yeah...it does lend itself to a touch more "realism".

Where that realism will land on the Uncanny Valley scale remains to be seen.

[1984TMNT]

I dunno - lips aren't real distinguishable here:http://www-images.theonering.org/torwp/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/desolation-of-smaug-dragon1.jpg

[plastroncafe]

Your mileage may vary.

http://www.easyfunschool.com/images/where_the_wild_things_are.jpg
http://socialmedio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/where-the-wild-things-are.jpg

[1984TMNT]

Your mileage may vary.

http://www.easyfunschool.com/images/where_the_wild_things_are.jpg
http://socialmedio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/where-the-wild-things-are.jpg

Yeah, but look at that - those creatures look almost EXACTLY like the original drawings.

[funksk8er]

Yeah, those do not have human lips.


I think its the fact they are trying to play off the features from the actual actors. One of those features being their lips. I just think its unnecessary and in my opinion, makes the Turtles look too much like humans. I understand that every reincarnation of the the turtles will be different. This is just the first time I have a major problem with the look of them.

[plastroncafe]

"Where the Wild Things Are" didn't have much in the way of other versions to separate itself from, so it had the luxury of being able to cling to the source material for character design.

Where it differed greatly was in the story.

The turtles have four movies, three cartoon series, and several comic iterations it has to be different than. I think it's short sighted to expect the character designs to be derivative of what we've seen before.

[Leo656]

guys....this movie is just another version of TMNT. Some people might like this version, some people might not.

Mileage may vary, but as I've said elsewhere, in my opinion movies based on a well-established property should aim to be less "new and different" and more "Iconic". 100x the number of people will go see a TMNT movie over reading a comic book or watching a cartoon. That's just how people are. To me, it's a wasted opportunity when a movie knowingly and unnecessarily "tinkers" with certain things that are otherwise left alone across other media. Your average TMNT fan knows they don't have tattoos or wear ratty sweatpants or bamboo armor, they know Shredder isn't a Caucasian senior citizen, etc. The 1990 film may not have been perfect, but it was "Iconic" in the sense that it was true to "the TMNT most everyone knows". For the most part.

The "new look" for the TMNT might fly as variant action figures, but not as the way they should be presented to mainstream audiences. Too much of what they're doing with the movie is turning TMNT on its head, and it's unnecessary. The very fact that so many of the die-hards, the fans they should be doing everything they can to please, are pissed to various degrees, for so many different reasons, means that this entire project has in a sense already failed.

"It's a chance to do something different" is a mediocre argument. Nobody was asking for anything different, they/we would settle for something good, even if it was derivative. The people excited for "Something different" is like, 5% of the audience. That's NOT a market you cater to with your $150-million movie that's supposed to kickstart a franchise that's been stagnant as a film property for close to 20 years.

Safe and boring or no, I'm pretty sure they should have just settled for "Do what they did before... but better." There's too much risk of failure in the movie business to make the kind of stylistic choices they've made.

I'm a pragmatist. Sue me.

[plastroncafe]

I'd hazard to say being good would be new and different.

[funksk8er]

If the majority of the people I have shown this image to say "The Mask", "Shrek" and "Weird Voldemort" and not "Ninja Turtle", there is a problem. That majority of people I showed (15 or so co-workers) are also, for the most part, main stream audience and not a fanboy like myself.

[BabyTurtles]

Mileage may vary, but as I've said elsewhere, in my opinion movies based on a well-established property should aim to be less "new and different" and more "Iconic". 100x the number of people will go see a TMNT movie over reading a comic book or watching a cartoon. That's just how people are. To me, it's a wasted opportunity when a movie knowingly and unnecessarily "tinkers" with certain things that are otherwise left alone across other media. Your average TMNT fan knows they don't have tattoos or wear ratty sweatpants or bamboo armor, they know Shredder isn't a Caucasian senior citizen, etc. The 1990 film may not have been perfect, but it was "Iconic" in the sense that it was true to "the TMNT most everyone knows". For the most part.

The "new look" for the TMNT might fly as variant action figures, but not as the way they should be presented to mainstream audiences. Too much of what they're doing with the movie is turning TMNT on its head, and it's unnecessary. The very fact that so many of the die-hards, the fans they should be doing everything they can to please, are pissed to various degrees, for so many different reasons, means that this entire project has in a sense already failed.

"It's a chance to do something different" is a mediocre argument. Nobody was asking for anything different, they/we would settle for something good, even if it was derivative. The people excited for "Something different" is like, 5% of the audience. That's NOT a market you cater to with your $150-million movie that's supposed to kickstart a franchise that's been stagnant as a film property for close to 20 years.

Safe and boring or no, I'm pretty sure they should have just settled for "Do what they did before... but better." There's too much risk of failure in the movie business to make the kind of stylistic choices they've made.

I'm a pragmatist. Sue me.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpof7dLQwB1qhi0wq.gif

IDK I don't see it that way.

alot of cool things came from people doing something new and different. (alot a bad things too)

we gotta see what we can do, ya know? to make things better.

I feel writers get bored by sticking with the formula, they mix it up to see if they can introduce something new that could stick and add something good for later incarnations.

somethings might not stick? like TMNT lips or white shredder, but if they never try you never know.

and it's not like they are making this film different to anger die-hard tmnt fans....they are just trying to excite us! surprise us! We know what happens in the original formula.....but we don't know what's gonna happen in this new one. I think that's cool.

[Leo656]

I'd hazard to say being good would be new and different.

First one was pretty good. They shouldn't copy-n-paste it for a new movie, but it wouldn't be a bad template to work from.

"Batman Begins" is a good example. It stuck to the comics, had a few fairly obvious nods to its well-known and much-beloved 1989 predecessor, modernized things a bit, and ended up with an arguably better movie, something absolutely nobody thought was even possible.

They didn't do what the people behind TMNT are seemingly doing, which is "fixing what ain't broken" to an annoying degree. You don't have to change everything just because you can.

babyturtles: You're giving them way too much credit. They just want to sell more toys and are so out of touch with what the audience wants they figure they can put literally anything out there and people will buy it. It's nothing to do with being "creative" or "exciting". These are middle-aged, cynical, out-of-touch, coked-up movie executives who only care about making a profit. No matter what anyone tells you, nobody making the Big Decisions on the movie has ever even SEEN a TMNT comic or cartoon show before, except maybe in the briefest passing. They're making the movie because someone told them it would be profitable. Mikey has a tattoo and sunglasses because a bunch of middle-aged suits think that's what kids see as "hip". Leo (allegedly) wears bamboo armor so they can sell another action figure. It's 100% that, and absolutely nothing else.

Trust me on this. I've wasted far too much of my life studying how "big" movies get made. It's depressing. Movie studio executives don't have a single "new" or "creative" thought in their empty little materialistic heads. Tim Burton wanted Superman to have see-through skin and wear black vinyl. "New and different"? Sure. "Absolute stupidest f*cking idea ever"? Absolutely, times infinity. These are people who went to work in Hollywood so they wouldn't have to actually work for a living. Anything "creative" they do is by complete accident.

Sorry to be a cynic, but some things just are what they are.

[plastroncafe]

There is a line to be walked when it comes to adaptation and..."Wait, why did you pay for the rights to this in the first place?"

A 1:1 adaptation is just...fan service, as far as I'm concerned. It's being able to see that Quidditch match on the screen, or a splash page rendered in real life.

In the end though, it's soulless and boring.
Yeah, I'm looking at you "Watchmen." Also the first two Harry Potter movies.

Film makers should do something with a story they're translating to film. Not just...ink it on the screen.

Of course, the other side of that spectrum is something like "Constantine" which...did away with nearly EVERYTHING Hellblazer, save for the names. It wasn't a bad movie, but it wasn't Hellblazer. I left the theater wondering why the director and producer even bothered to pay for the Constantine rights in the first place.

Now...I'm not making excuses for Platinum Dunes, who I already don't think very highly of. I'm clearly not their target audience. I'm just bored of the hyperbole.

[Andrew NDB]

I'd hazard to say being good would be new and different.

Yes, this. This.

[plastroncafe]

Yes, this. This.

Did...did we just agree on something turtle related, Andrew?

SOMEONE FIND ME A WEATHER REPORT FOR HELL! STAT!

[funksk8er]

There is a line to be walked when it comes to adaptation and..."Wait, why did you pay for the rights to this in the first place?"

A 1:1 adaptation is just...fan service, as far as I'm concerned. It's being able to see that Quidditch match on the screen, or a splash page rendered in real life.

In the end though, it's soulless and boring.
Yeah, I'm looking at you "Watchmen." Also the first two Harry Potter movies.

Film makers should do something with a story they're translating to film. Not just...ink it on the screen.

Of course, the other side of that spectrum is something like "Constantine" which...did away with nearly EVERYTHING Hellblazer, save for the names. It wasn't a bad movie, but it wasn't Hellblazer. I left the theater wondering why the director and producer even bothered to pay for the Constantine rights in the first place.

Now...I'm not making excuses for Platinum Dunes, who I already don't think very highly of. I'm clearly not their target audience. I'm just bored of the hyperbole.

I agree. This going back to one of my main points. The end product, good or bad, lies with the director Jonathan Liebesman.

Still doesnt change the fact that I hate those human lips. The story and characters development are the most important thing. But if those fail, I wont even get to fall back on "At least the turtles looked good". Only time will tell.

[Leo656]

I don't know what people wanted from Watchmen. Yeah, it was pretty rigid, but the fans of it being who they/we are, you change any of it at all and you risk serious backlash. I also refuse to join the "it never should have been made at all" group, because if nothing else, it sold another bazillion copies of the book, and literally everyone on Earth needs to have read Watchmen.

I don't think literal copy-n-paste is the way to go, but you have to give your audience at least some degree of what they expect and are familiar with. I mean, way back in the day (2000 or so) everyone thought Aronofsky's "Batman: Year One" idea would be brilliant, until they actually saw the script and found out it had f*cking nothing, nothing at all, to do with Batman the way people know him. What did we eventually get? "The same old thing, but done better." Which made WB almost $3 billion by the time all was said and done with that trilogy. Hard to say they should have gone with the "new and different" approach, in their case...

...Unless you *really* think that instead of Alfred, we needed a Batman movie where young Bruce is taken in by a black, street-wise garage mechanic named "Big Al." Because we seriously almost got that. And if you actually want that movie, well... your parents either beat you, or didn't beat you enough, hard to say.

[plastroncafe]

I wanted "Watchmen" to be more than just pretty.
But...it's a Zach Snyder movie, and the man is all style over substance.

When the trailer and opening credit sequence tells a better story than your 2 hour movie, you've got problems.

[Candy Kappa]

I loved the copy-paste parts of watchmen, seeing it in live-action was fun.

[Kendamu]

Considering that they took away all the Foot Soldiers' ninja weapons and replaced them with guns, I'm venturing... no.

I was more referring to the Turtles as a group of Ninja.

[Candy Kappa]

I doubt we'll see any authentic ninja action in the movie, but I am sure the fight choreography will be decent.

[Vulkanthekrusader]

Not co-signing anything about lips, its been done good without lips on other species of animal and not needed, seems like people here are trying to make sense of things, but lets say we see the footage of no lips being used to talk and lips being used, i betcha, we would like not lips, cuz their face is one giant lip slab like TMNT movie.

[chrisdude]

I'm cool with a direct adaptation - once. Movies just have a wider audience than comics or novels. It allows fans of the original to share that experience with the world.

After that, I don't see the point of sticking so closely to the original. Especially with something like TMNT, as it's been reinterpreted in widely different ways, within my lifetime. Those movies are still on the shelf. If you're going to do TMNT again, I think they should try to do something different, and add to the franchise. Plenty of accepted elements of TMNT lore came from outside of the comics. And that's true for other comic characters, too But none of it would have happened if people didn't try anything different. That's why I say, try the clothes. If not these clothes, the concept of wearing clothes may stick. It's too soon to tell.

But lips?

My gosh. That's at least as trivial Nickelodeon's third toe. In a forum that exists for nitpicky debate, this still seems like a non-issue.

[Leo656]

I wanted "Watchmen" to be more than just pretty.
But...it's a Zach Snyder movie, and the man is all style over substance.

When the trailer and opening credit sequence tells a better story than your 2 hour movie, you've got problems.

Well, realistically, it did the best it could without being 8 hours long to recreate the entire book. And the movie had a better ending, IMO. Giant space squids are cool, and all, but the ending of the movie tied everything together much better.

And even that change pissed people off. In this specific case I don't really see any other way they could have done the movie and still pleased anyone at all, and again, I can't in good conscience agree with the "they shouldn't have bothered making it" logic that some have towards it. I thought most everyone played their parts well, especially Rorschach and The Comedian. Although they kind of made it a little obvious who the villain was. Damn Hollywood and their insistence on playing sinister background music whenever they want to foreshadow who the Big Bad is.

It did the job, it was the book in live-action. It was a doomed project from Day One, really. Half the audience thought it was too faithful, half wished it was twice as long and even MORE faithful, and the rest of the people who saw it didn't read the book first and had no idea WTF they were watching.

Funny story: When the movie came out, a friend who loves comics but never read the book asked me to briefly give him the gist of what it was about. I told him it was kind of a take on super-heroes in the real world. He said "Oh, like Batman Begins?" :roll: Granted, my summary was vague, but oy...

As for the TMNT designs, I'm kind of ambivalent on the nostrils and lips. More the whole design just seems "off" and focus-grouped into existence. Do they *Need* to wear clothes? It just seems like a solution to a problem nobody knew existed. It's like some suit looked at a Mirage comic and said, "Their tails look like penises. I'm uncomfortable with that. Let's give them clothes." If that's the main reason, then f*ck 'em.

[Andrew NDB]

I was more referring to the Turtles as a group of Ninja.

Oh. Well, maybe. But come fighting time, they're either going to be dodging bullets (and please tell me they're not going to have Leo and Raph doing asinine things like deflecting bullets with their swords/sai), doing the block-block-kick thing from TMNT 1, getting inventive with their surroundings (throwing thrash cans and sh*t, you know), and going hand-to-hand. Or grappling with some kind of CGI giant alien Shredder thing.

If there were images of Foot Soldiers with sword scabbards or anything ninja-like there'd be hope. But there's not.

[turtlefanforever]

There's no need. Stop trying to argue.

[Leo656]

Arguing's pretty much all we do here, New Guy. :)

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

I'm not sure how this is a sign of being "daring" or "edgy" to me it seems less like they're aiming for an adult audience but rather taking a juvenile approach. Like this is what Michael Bay thinks most teenagers dress like.

When "Daring" and "Edgy" actually means "mainstream".
Unless they meant it against the original designs... in which case, I have seen FAR more daring and edgier things doing by fans.

[Cipher]

The very fact that so many of the die-hards, the fans they should be doing everything they can to please, are pissed to various degrees, for so many different reasons, means that this entire project has in a sense already failed.
Come on, now. I am one of those fans, but there's no way you can say that with a straight face.

Die-hard fans are the last group a big-budget endeavor need consider. They're going to complain no matter what you do; see it no matter what you do.

[CyberCubed]

The thing is I can't even see kids growing up with the Nick show wanting to see this movie. The turtle designs will probably traumatized them.

Even worse when the Megan Fox/Turtle make-out scene happens. People said a big budget movie can't go without a love interest and with no Casey and Vernon being unlikely it will fall to a turtle.

Those lips look like they're for kissing. Just imagine Megan Fox's tongue down a Turtles mouth. Oh god make it stop! *covers eyes*

[TurtleTitan97]

The thing is I can't even see kids growing up with the Nick show wanting to see this movie. The turtle designs will probably traumatized them.

Even worse when the Megan Fox/Turtle make-out scene happens. People said a big budget movie can't go without a love interest and with no Casey and Vernon being unlikely it will fall to a turtle.

Those lips look like they're for kissing. Just imagine Megan Fox's tongue down a Turtles mouth. Oh god make it stop! *covers eyes*

Enough about your April/Turtle make out scenario! Seriously, the fact that you're describing it is making me sick:tsick:.

[The Fifth Turtle]

Did I miss something?
Was there a make out session confirmed?

[TurtleTitan97]

Did I miss something?
Was there a make out session confirmed?

Nah, just CyberCubed making a goof outta himself.

[turtlefanforever]

The thing is I can't even see kids growing up with the Nick show wanting to see this movie. The turtle designs will probably traumatized them.

If the nick designs haven't traumatized them, nothing will.

[Powder]

If the nick designs haven't traumatized them, nothing will.

I like how you claim you don't constantly bash the Nick show when it's clear as day that you do.

[ironman29758]

If the nick designs haven't traumatized them, nothing will.

....how is it traumatizing? Except for the facial differences and the third toe(doesn't turtles usually have third toes?) they pretty much look how they usually do.

As for the facial expressions. I want to look at some official trailer or screen caps before I even begin to judge how they do the Turtles. Yeah the clothes don't really make that much sense but

To me it's like Superman not having underwear, Batman wearing pretty much all black instead of just grey and black, Spider-Man in The Amazing Spider-Man having yellow eyes in merchandise and original subject(no different from most other Spider-Man posters) but in the final draft look black/darker since it's sunglasses. But at the same time it could be like Batman having nipples on his costume, Green Lantern has toes, or Captain America Avengers costume.

while Hulk is more mo cap. The closest I think the turtles could be compared to is this:
4nGqGPEvfeo

which took the original Steve Ditko look in the comics and adapted to the live action version of the Lizard to properly show a mutated human with lizard DNA but this is a turtle mutations thanks to Utrom ooze(in the Fred Wolf and 2012 Nick cartoon and in a way the IDW in a way they are Turtles with human dna thanks to the ooze/mutagen). Honestly I would have with the Out of the Shadows type look. But I'll wait and see before I really judge it.

[Garfield]

Making excuses for bad designs makes no difference. You know they only gave them lips so one of the Turtles can have a make out scene with Megan Fox.

You heard it here first.

:lol:

as for lips on a turtle.

I exercise a degree of leniency and disbelief when it come to the physiology of mutant ninja turtles. So I'm able to come to terms that I just hate the design and rather they did something different.

So yeah... I hate the lips on the turtle.

[turtlefanforever]

http://s28.postimg.org/jj1di33y5/esr7.jpg

Are you just gonna post this everywhere?

[sdp]

I don't know, I'll wait to see how the lips look in the actual movie and not from a halloween costume which are always badly made. Of course after seeing that the lips do look like the actor it does seem that's what they're going for, hope it doesn't look too much like a bald green guy. Then again, that's how the Lizard look in the Spiderman reboot and people mostly liked that movie despite that. I still think this movie will be a fun popcorn film.

[Coola Yagami]

Nah, just CyberCubed making a goof outta himself.

Exactly, leaked versions of the script suggest Megan was gonna use lips on something a little lower....

[plastroncafe]

Those lips look like they're for kissing. Just imagine Megan Fox's tongue down a Turtles mouth.

Methinks the lady doth project too much.

[CyberCubed]

Methinks the lady doth project too much.

Now we know why those Megan Fox, we're going to see boobies rubbed against Turtle plastron.

[Cure]

I used to really dislike CyberCubed, but now I'm just thankful I'm nowhere near as insane as he is. Anything bad ever happens in my life..."Well, it could be worse, like CYBERCUBED worse".

Thank God for you, man.

[Aelia]

Now we know why those Megan Fox, we're going to see boobies rubbed against Turtle plastron.

Why stop there? Let's turn it into a full-blown porno. I'm sure that'll go over with the folks expecting to take their kids to this movie. :tcool:

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

The fact that they are attempting to aim this film at a somewhat adult audience is huge for the franchise.


Wait, did I miss something? Where was it said that they were attempting to 'aim for a somewhat adult audience'? I'm not trying to start anything, I just don't understand that comment.

The whole thing reminds me of when Snake Eyes in the very first G.I. Joe live-action flick had those goofy looking lips on it.

http://cdn2.maxim.com/maxim/files/2009/02/02/movie-blog-new-post-02-02-2009/fs_snake-eyes-3_main.jpg


Also, about the whole 'lips logic' thing.

Isn't it kind of strange to be talking about 'logic' when it is about 4 giant, walking, talking Ninja Turtles?

It is walking, talking, mutated Ninja Turtles. You can let Logic fly out the window for at least a little bit. So I don't understand this 'well it wouldn't be normal if they didn't have lips' stuff. They're not normal to begin with!

If they want that much logic and 'realism', then I guess they better not forget the 'tails' that the turtles would have, 'logically speaking'.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Why stop there? Let's turn it into a full-blown porno. I'm sure that'll go over with the folks expecting to take their kids to this movie. :tcool:


http://thestockmasters.com/files/images/buyfordollar.jpg

[nimajneb]

I'm cool with a direct adaptation - once. Movies just have a wider audience than comics or novels. It allows fans of the original to share that experience with the world.

After that, I don't see the point of sticking so closely to the original. Especially with something like TMNT, as it's been reinterpreted in widely different ways, within my lifetime. Those movies are still on the shelf. If you're going to do TMNT again, I think they should try to do something different, and add to the franchise. Plenty of accepted elements of TMNT lore came from outside of the comics. And that's true for other comic characters, too But none of it would have happened if people didn't try anything different. That's why I say, try the clothes. If not these clothes, the concept of wearing clothes may stick. It's too soon to tell.

But lips?

My gosh. That's at least as trivial Nickelodeon's third toe. In a forum that exists for nitpicky debate, this still seems like a non-issue.

I agree with you - couldn't have been said any better!

[Candy Kappa]

Also, about the whole 'lips logic' thing.

Isn't it kind of strange to be talking about 'logic' when it is about 4 giant, walking, talking Ninja Turtles?

It is walking, talking, mutated Ninja Turtles. You can let Logic fly out the window for at least a little bit. So I don't understand this 'well it wouldn't be normal if they didn't have lips' stuff. They're not normal to begin with!

If they want that much logic and 'realism', then I guess they better not forget the 'tails' that the turtles would have, 'logically speaking'.

The turtles do have tails in Mitage, but it wast as we'll received when moved to a children's property because apparently tails = wee-wees.

There's till a handful of the toys that have tails.

But, instead of logic lets talk about esthetics. The lips don't look good on a esthetic level.

[FlogginMcMurryZombiePizza]

I never thought "wee-wees". I always HAD thought that it just looked like turds lol Turtles have tails but I never seen a turtle with a tail longer than its shell.

And I used to own a desert turtle. We found it on our front patio when I was a child. I named it Leo. My mom, who is a seamstress, wrote his name on the top of his dented shell with a fabric glitter glue.
True facts.

[Jester]

4nGqGPEvfeo
I will never understand what is so hard about the Youtube tags....

[Candy Kappa]

I never thought "wee-wees". I always HAD thought that it just looked like turds lol Turtles have tails but I never seen a turtle with a tail longer than its shell.

And I used to own a desert turtle. We found it on our front patio when I was a child. I named it Leo. My mom, who is a seamstress, wrote his name on the top of his dented shell with a fabric glitter glue.
True facts.

I guess you have never seen sliders or snappers, their tails gets past the shell scutes.

[Metalwolf]

Why stop there? Let's turn it into a full-blown porno. I'm sure that'll go over with the folks expecting to take their kids to this movie. :tcool:Well it didn't stop parents from taking their kids to the 2nd and 3rd installment of Transformers after the 1st had some raunchy bits in it, so I don't think anything stops them anymore. They've brought kids into rated R movies at night, so whats a little MeganXTurtle kink to them?

[AdamWarlock87]

im sure we can all agree the mask sucks but I takes these things with a grain of salt. Anyone watch Faceoff on Scifi channel? Some of the masks look terrible but look much better under the lights and when they show the transformations of the models to the characters. But I can also agree that I hated the lips on Snakeyes in the GI Joe movie which look alot like the Mikey mask. To add to this, always still with the classic look like in the first TMNT movie.

[plastroncafe]

Now we know why those Megan Fox, we're going to see boobies rubbed against Turtle plastron.

Why stop there? Let's turn it into a full-blown porno. I'm sure that'll go over with the folks expecting to take their kids to this movie. :tcool:

Well that escalated quickly.

From incoherent to implausible and shrill in 24 minutes.

[Andrew NDB]

Anyone watch Faceoff on Scifi channel?

http://www.chud.com/nextraimages/Faceoff8.jpg

[1984TMNT]

Just remembered that the character design in the fan film "Fight The Foot" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldC6krN7PNM) had lips, and I thought overall the look worked. Now, I would omit the lips if it were up to me, but I don't see them here and think "oh the horror!!!!" Therefore, I'm officially going to back off on my hatred of the whole "lips" idea until I see the ACTUAL movie designs for this.

http://www.edwardteabelly.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/fight-the-foot-raph-close-up.jpg

Depending on how they handle it, it might be just fine. I just hope the head shape is more in line with what we've come to expect, and the shape as shown in the halloween costume is "off". Oh - and the nose still bothers me. :)

[Vivi]

There are a slew of CGI movies with talking animals that haven't had their lip size enhanced to make it believable that they were talking. It's purely a stylistic choice that not everyone is going to like. Same with the philtrum.

[Aelia]

Well that escalated quickly.

From incoherent to implausible and shrill in 24 minutes.

To be fair, I intended for it to be entirely implausible.

[plastroncafe]

To be fair, I intended for it to be entirely implausible.

I was hoping that was the case, but one can never be too sure around here...

[turtlefanforever]

probably...

Honesty Is the best policy I guess .

[Anton Chigurh]

Just remembered that the character design in the fan film "Fight The Foot" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldC6krN7PNM) had lips, and I thought overall the look worked. Now, I would omit the lips if it were up to me, but I don't see them here and think "oh the horror!!!!" Therefore, I'm officially going to back off on my hatred of the whole "lips" idea until I see the ACTUAL movie designs for this.

http://www.edwardteabelly.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/fight-the-foot-raph-close-up.jpg

Depending on how they handle it, it might be just fine. I just hope the head shape is more in line with what we've come to expect, and the shape as shown in the halloween costume is "off". Oh - and the nose still bothers me. :)

This all day long, I totally forgot about this short, it was awesome and the turtle looked great with lips.

[Metalwolf]

I was hoping that was the case, but one can never be too sure around here...And I'm just helping this thread to keep moving. :)

[turtlefanforever]

And I'm just helping this thread to keep moving. :)

There's not much left to say here.

[Refractive Reflections]

So after reading further into the quoted argument:

The Turtles might have something resembling lips because you absolutely need those muscles to make any sounds remotely resembling English phonemes.

In cartoons, you can get away with lip-sync because it doesn't need to look realistic. The Nicktoons models can be flat-faced and lipless all day long because, at the end of the day, as long as their mouth makes a vaguely convincing shape that corresponds to the correct sound, you'll buy that it's what they're saying.

In a "realistic" movie, that doesn't quite fly. You need those muscles there because, if we're to accept that these mutant, humanoid Turtles created through alien science are capable of speaking our language, they need them. And we've never had anything close to resembling an actual attempt at lip-sync in a live-action Turtle film before.

So, yeah, sorry. Lips. And I'm all aboard the "beak-faced, Zulli-esque monstrosity" train for any future incarnation that wants to ride it. It's just that, not only is this not a bad alternative, it actually makes more sense.

So um... it's going to very interesting remembering this argument when the international audience hears their own foreign language voice dubbing not being in-sync with the minute, subtle mouth visuals they were arguing for, when it comes to exporting this film internationally when their mouths will "make a vaguely convincing shape that corresponds to the correct sound". Unless they're going to change the CGI visuals on the Turtles' mouths for most of the world's major languages...

Their argument erroneously mixes the functionality of lips (the presence and use of oral muscles to create varying sound; the "lip-sync" motion) to support their visual aesthetic appearance of lips.

[turtlefanforever]

So after reading further into the quoted argument:



So um... it's going to very interesting remembering this argument when the international audience hears their own foreign language voice dubbing not being in-sync with the minute, subtle mouth visuals they were arguing for, when it comes to exporting this film internationally when their mouths will "make a vaguely convincing shape that corresponds to the correct sound". Unless they're going to change the CGI visuals on the Turtles' mouths for most of the world's major languages...

Their argument erroneously mixes the functionality of lips (the presence and use of oral muscles to create varying sound; the "lip-sync" motion) to support their visual aesthetic appearance of lips.

I didn't even think about that! Damn! They're screwed!

[Sighphi]

This guy has no lips.
http://i.imgur.com/VjCZjCDl.jpg

How can he talk?

[Lou 500]

Now we know why those Megan Fox, we're going to see boobies rubbed against Turtle plastron.

Why stop there? Let's turn it into a full-blown porno. I'm sure that'll go over with the folks expecting to take their kids to this movie. :tcool:

I'm laughing so much I'm crying.

When April faints do you think Mikey tries to give her mouth-to-mouth afterwards?

[graphic_content]

Making excuses for bad designs makes no difference. You know they only gave them lips so one of the Turtles can have a make out scene with Megan Fox.

You heard it here first.

why hollywood always feel the need to throw in some kind of romantic element makes NO sense to me. (they actually re-shot some scenes for the latest Hobbit to add a romantic triangle, which was completely unnecessary imo.)

IF this scene you predict happens, I will laugh, and shake my head immediately after.

[electric_sheep]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/f74d8de3038d91edaccc729a9f311c5e/tumblr_n35oi9S5Qp1svkzffo1_400.gif
I am surprised that no one superimposed Megan's tits on this.

[Dragnskull]

not to jump on the bandwagon of hating something before i see it, but to respond to your lips explanation, one word: Parrots.

[Lou 500]

I actually thought about that method too.

How do birds mimic human speech? (https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091003190616AAJXR8b)

A human uses teeth, lips, larynx (the home of vocal cords) and tongue to produce speech, which is basically a process of creating vibrations through a flow of air.

Birds have a larynx, but it doesn't have any sound-producing structures (cords/folds), and they don't use their tongues in sound production. A bird's vocal apparatus is the syrinx, a muscular, wishbone-shaped structure (or, if you will, an upside-down Y) located at the base of the trachea, where the windpipe meets the lungs. Each branch of the syrinx has a moveable valve, and the valves can work independently. This allows birds (primarily songbirds [Passeriformes] -- those with a well-developed syrinx) to be able to make very complex sounds, such as mimicking human speech.

Granted it would be an odd thing for the ooze to give them but also very convenient.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

The lips don't even bother me anymore.

What does bother me is the size of the Turtles.

(Can they even FIT in the Turtle Van?)

[MajorViolence]

Just remembered that the character design in the fan film "Fight The Foot" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldC6krN7PNM) had lips, and I thought overall the look worked. Now, I would omit the lips if it were up to me, but I don't see them here and think "oh the horror!!!!" Therefore, I'm officially going to back off on my hatred of the whole "lips" idea until I see the ACTUAL movie designs for this.

http://www.edwardteabelly.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/fight-the-foot-raph-close-up.jpg

Depending on how they handle it, it might be just fine. I just hope the head shape is more in line with what we've come to expect, and the shape as shown in the halloween costume is "off". Oh - and the nose still bothers me. :)
Dang, you have a good point there. I didn't even notice the lips, because that design doesn't bother me, much unlike the Bayturtles.

[Warhorse]

Because there is going to be a make out scene with April with one of them. Why do you think there is no Casey Jones??????

[Metalwolf]

Dang, you have a good point there. I didn't even notice the lips, because that design doesn't bother me, much unlike the Bayturtles.That head/face design looked awesome. I'd pick that design waay over any of the Bay ones.