Mirage Turtle personalities compared to the other mediums?

[Warhorse]

I was just wondering, to those who read the comics, can you all give a description of how much more different the Mirage Turtles are compared to the other mediums like Fred Wolf, 1990 toon, 2k3, 2012? What is it about those particular Mirage characters you find yourself loving more than other incarnations, or vice versa? Maybe it's the personalities or the way they handled certain challenges or something? Thanks.:)

[miru]

Overall, they're much more ruthless and less heroic.

[Powder]

I'd say Leo & Raph are more or less consistent across the turtleverse (with the two being a bit more extreme- Raph being more violent, Leo more serious & brooding with stronger spiritual themes). Donnie & Mikey are the two who really differ from their mainstream personalities. Mikey starts off as sort of the generic turtle, later becoming the heart of the team. He is sometimes used to comedic effect, but in a mostly more innocent way, rather than being outright goofy or idiotic. But later in the series, particularly in vol. 3, he gets a lot of development & maturity thrown his way, as he takes to writing poetry & romance novels in his spare time. He was even published! He was Shadow's babysitter, & the first to get a girlfriend (an alien or mutant dinosaur-esque chick named Horridus [or Sara]). But he's still brutal when he fights. One book's opening page is him choking a foot elite to death with his chuck chains. :tcool: Donnie does sort of have the intellectual thing going on, but he's far more reserved, & the thinking is done in his own head, rather than out loud. The loner angle that is often played up with Raph in the films & cartoons is moreso Donnie's role in the comics. He's quite a dark guy, actually. He's killed animals in the name of science, beat up a drunk Casey Jones, kept Baxter Stockman in a dungeon for like 2 years without his brothers knowledge, cloned Splinter, built a robot version of April after she died, when he was a cyborg and struggling to deal with it he threatened to kill his brothers before pulling the trigger to his own head (though the suit had an override that prevented self-harm). Like I said, dark.

[CyberCubed]

Mirage Michelangelo is the most drastically different. Instead of always trying to be funny and into videogames/comics like the other versions, he's more of a laid back guy who occasionally makes a joke but is also a writer and quite thoughtful.

Mirage Mikey is still fun and playful as seen in his one-shot, but he's not as overboard as the cartoons.

[Warhorse]

Thank you guys for the responses.

[Casey]

I'd say Leo & Raph are more or less consistent across the turtleverse (with the two being a bit more extreme- Raph being more violent, Leo more serious & brooding with stronger spiritual themes). Donnie & Mikey are the two who really differ from their mainstream personalities. Mikey starts off as sort of the generic turtle, later becoming the heart of the team. He is sometimes used to comedic effect, but in a mostly more innocent way, rather than being outright goofy or idiotic. But later in the series, particularly in vol. 3, he gets a lot of development & maturity thrown his way, as he takes to writing poetry & romance novels in his spare time. He was even published! He was Shadow's babysitter, & the first to get a girlfriend (an alien or mutant dinosaur-esque chick named Horridus [or Sara]). But he's still brutal when he fights. One book's opening page is him choking a foot elite to death with his chuck chains. :tcool: Donnie does sort of have the intellectual thing going on, but he's far more reserved, & the thinking is done in his own head, rather than out loud. The loner angle that is often played up with Raph in the films & cartoons is moreso Donnie's role in the comics. He's quite a dark guy, actually. He's killed animals in the name of science, beat up a drunk Casey Jones, kept Baxter Stockman in a dungeon for like 2 years without his brothers knowledge, cloned Splinter, built a robot version of April after she died, when he was a cyborg and struggling to deal with it he threatened to kill his brothers before pulling the trigger to his own head (though the suit had an override that prevented self-harm). Like I said, dark.

To be fair, many of those things are referencing Image's Vol. 3, but I think the overall tone of Donnie and Mikey are as you described. I know you know all of this Powder and I'm not sure if the user who started this thread cares about the distinction or not, but I personally don't consider it canon although I do enjoy it.

[Powder]

Mikey's stuff, yeah, but only maybe half for Donatello. Besides, vol. 3 was written to be a canon continuation of vol. 2, with Eastman & Laird approving every single move Gary Carlson made in scripting the series. Laird is the one who decided 10 years later he no longer wanted it to be canon, but never wrote anything that contradicted the events of that volume, leaving it open to interpretation. I think most fans still consider it canon, & there are even select Tales issues that seem to insert themselves in or around that era. Plus you've got the finisher books, featuring the original creative team, which tie it into vol. 4.

[Xav]

Laird is the one who decided 10 years later he no longer wanted it to be canon, but never wrote anything that contradicted the events of that volume, leaving it open to interpretation.Well except for the fact that the turtles aren't mutilated in vol 4.

[Powder]

Yeah, but there's a decent gap in time between the volumes, which makes it fair to assume the turtles healed on their own. There's a lot of blank spots in the timeline, anyway. We dunno where Mikey ended up in old age, what happened between Shadow & Donnie, etc.

[Rooish]

Volume 3 may have been considered canon at the time but I can see why Laird disowned it. The personalities are just messed up. After reading mostly Lawson's and Laird's scripts for the final parts of Volume 1 and Volume 2, the turtles have all become fairly cerebral and thoughtful--well especially Leo and Don. The Volume 3 turtles are simply too rough and callous. They get better as the series goes, I guess. Maybe the endless stream of Image crossovers mellowed them out. I liked Mike's development in the series, but I don't think his relationship with Horridus helped any, since she was considered a "retard".

It should be noted that in Mirage, Raph was sometimes--often--as goofy as Mike, especially when Eastman wrote him.

Also of note is that Don beat up a drunk Casey Jones because Casey was berating him, but well, it was mean anyway.

[victory_angel]

Also of note is that Don beat up a drunk Casey Jones because Casey was berating him, but well, it was mean anyway.

Yeah, Casey comes up and starts telling Donnie about how he thinks he's better then everyone because he's so smart. Donnie tells him to go away and come back when he's sober. And when he continues to bug him he gets Donnie's wrath.

[Rooish]

Granted, Don does think he's better than anyone else, at least according to Vol. 4.

Also of note: in Mirage it's Don and Mike. Not this Donnie and Mikey bull.

[neatoman]

Overall, they're much more ruthless and less heroic.

That... Is correct, but it's worth noting that even though they're anti-heroes they're not the humorless super dark people some detractors seem to claim. Just expect the lighter stuff is more likely to involve beer rather than pizza...

[Cipher]

Granted, Don does think he's better than anyone else, at least according to Vol. 4.
Even more of note is that on both occasions (and these came from Laird and the rest of the core Mirage team), Don doesn't really deny the accusations. He just brushes them off.

As others have mentioned: Leonardo is pretty consistent with what you'd see in other media. Raph starts out nearly psychotically vicious, but cools off in later volumes and is very into the idea of protecting the innocent and being proactive. Mike loves human culture and is the most extroverted; he's not a goofball as portrayed in other versions; he just likes to have fun. Don's smart but has a bit of a superiority complex. But can you blame him? His life's being wasted in a sewer until the Utroms show up.

Don also, despite sometimes engaging in some morally questionable things, dislikes violence the most of the four (though all will kill if necessary).

Here's what we know of their future: Donatello goes blind at some point and lives alone as an old Turtle in a futuristic setting. Leonardo loses a girlfriend in middle age and swears off killing. He travels the world and is seen at 100-plus-years-old in various settings, including a futuristic apartment and a period Japanese-style house. Raph loses an eye and ends up going on the lamb on a post-apocalyptic Earth (global warming causes catastrophic flooding across at least parts of the earth at the end of the Mirage timeline, much like the TMNT Adventures one). We don't know what happens to Mike.

In general the Mirage universe is a grittier, more surreal, and often more somber place than other versions, and its Turtles reflect that. In early issues they're generic quipping action heroes, but by the time the series has settled into its identity they're probably the most human and nuanced versions around. Mirage Mike is my favorite Turtle period. I like Mirage Leo a lot too. He's actually a little more down-to-Earth than other versions.

[Powder]

Volume 3 may have been considered canon at the time but I can see why Laird disowned it. The personalities are just messed up. After reading mostly Lawson's and Laird's scripts for the final parts of Volume 1 and Volume 2, the turtles have all become fairly cerebral and thoughtful--well especially Leo and Don. The Volume 3 turtles are simply too rough and callous.


The book starts with their lair being ambushed on their 18th birthday. After a time of peace, they thought they'd finally started to live quiet lives, but then, boom, two baddies show up, SHOOT RAPH IN THE FACE & drop Donnie out of a helicopter, KILLING HIM. If you think you can go through that without becoming sour, paranoid, edgy, & generally angry for a while, then they broke the mold when they made you. Donnie's mind is corrupted by the cyborg's influence, which is made clear. Raph is Raph. Period. But now he's got more reasons to be pissed off. Leo's perfectly normal, as is Mikey, so... & the book is not without it's somber moments.

Also of note: in Mirage it's Don and Mike. Not this Donnie and Mikey bull.

Pardon my having affection for characters I love. :trolleye:

[Rooish]

Oh I wasn't talking to you about the Mikey and Donnie thing, just in general--it's like the new versions have no concept that Mike and Don are possible nicknames for these characters anymore.

I meant the turtles were jerks to each other in Image, not just callous in general. They seriously brought in all this macho bravado crap that was never there before. Their reaction to Don's and Splinter's suspected deaths was to pretty much shrug it off. Except that scene where Mike cried... but yeah, not enough really. Raph was basically like so Don's a cyborg and depressed, he should get over it already. Leo then is like yeah we can't have him bringing the team down, you beat us up right now or you're not worth a damn to us. Mike's like poor baby Raph, your face melted off, let me kiss your boo boo. I'm pretty sure the Mirage Turtles would have never been like that. Their personalities got a bit better as it went though.

[Powder]

Fair enough, but it came off that way.

I think the turtles' assholishness towards one another (which wasn't present very long) was just a means of there being a more brotherly vibe, & that's what brothers do. They bust eachother's chops. In my mind, they couldn't really afford to break down seeing Don, given all the other crazy s**t going on around them, plus there's the fact that death takes time to settle within you. I think it'd be natural for the turtles to try and swallow the scenario & mourn later. Before anything else, they're warriors. They were raised to kill, & accept death for what it is. Raph has always been insensitive towards others. As for Leo, I think his attitude was rooted in the idea of reverse psychology. They challenge one another to see where they're really coming from. The Mikey part, I'll give you that, though Mike is always one to try & lighten the mood, no matter how bad the situation is... so it's not unfair to try & reason that his timing was poor & he thought he was helping, or maybe he couldn't fully grasp how bad the damage was. We've all said the wrong thing at the wrong time once or twice in our lives.

[Warhorse]

When it comes to fighting/defense, how do the Mirage Turtles stack up to, say the 1990 movie, the 2k3, and 2012 Turtles?

[Powder]

In terms of what, like, individual skill, or as a whole?

If you're looking at the big picture, one might actually argue that the 4kids turtles are strongest. They got a little Mary Sue'd towards the end there, turning into dragons & essentially battling Satan... So, they might not even be fair to compare. :tlol:

But the Mirage turtles are definitely tougher than all the rest, no question. Even more so with age, as Raph has a second mutation, Mikey trains in an alien army, Donnie gets a mech suit, & Leo's just as tough on himself training-wise as ever.

[BabyTurtles]

wow the turtles sound brutal compared to now....

O_O I mean Donnie trapping Baxter for 2 years!??

[Werecat]

When it comes to fighting/defense, how do the Mirage Turtles stack up to, say the 1990 movie, the 2k3, and 2012 Turtles?

I would say the mirage turtles are stronger but their capabilities are inconsistent. For example; the turtles would be able to defeat a powerful, evil ninja master but then lose to some punk, just inconsistent. The turtles are basically 50/50 when fighting each other. They are equally strong in their own ways.

Unlike 2k3 which godmoded Leonardo ONLY and neglected the other turtles, mainly Raph. 2k3 Raph is the weakest turtle and literally adds nothing to the team. His anger is a nuisance, his fighting skills are laughable, his strength can be surpassed, his intellect is laughable as well. So unlike the original Raph whose anger boosted his strength and his skills in hand to hand combat is unsurpassed. He basically slapped Shredder around with just his fists, but is somehow unable to do the same with the sai. Again, the original is better but very inconsistent.

2012 turtles are actually pretty well done. Except Donatello gets beaten too easily. Inconsistencies still happen though. Such as Raph learning to cope with emotions in Turtle Temper yet manages to forget his lesson in Follow the Leader. The show does show noticeable growth in combat skills though, which is good.

I would rank best to worst in combat prowess
#1 Mirage, the turtles are powerful and are equally strong in comparison. Ignore the comics that strayed too far from the source material. They are disowned for a reason.
#2 2012 'tis good
#3 1989, in the early episodes they showed quite a bit of awesome combat skeels, more so than 2k3. It gets ruined by the later episodes though.
#4 2k3, 'cause the show only god modes Leonardo. You are only as strong as your weakest link. I also really disliked the story and its writing,TIS SUCKY TROLOLOL.

Also I would like to mention that peeps tend to be exaggerating Donatello's so called "dark side". Most of his vile attitude came from an affliction and not his own personality. All of his questionable deeds were actually done in the best interest of his family.

Raphael is the natural, violent psychopath which is why I love his stories. So much interesting things. The stories that mellowed him out make me sick. I wish the writers would just embrace the monstrosity within Raphael. It makes a better story than conforming to the idea of perfection.

[Cipher]

Also I would like to mention that peeps tend to be exaggerating Donatello's so called "dark side". Most of his vile attitude came from an affliction and not his own personality. All of his questionable deeds were actually done in the best interest of his family.

Raphael is the natural, violent psychopath which is why I love his stories. So much interesting things. The stories that mellowed him out make me sick. I wish the writers would just embrace the monstrosity within Raphael. It makes a better story than conforming to the idea of perfection.
1) Agreed. Although the Baxter thing is super-duper f*cked up. And he absolutely has a superiority complex. It doesn't make him a terrible person, but he does have trouble relating to the likes of Raph and Casey.

2) I think you're exaggerating how "mellowed out" he gets. He bonds with Shadow in her teen years, but, like, his most sentimental stories involve him fighting ninjas for a baby, helping a woman stand up to her abusers, and ... befriending Cha Ocho only to totally leave a bunch of alien hostages when they go out for beer? He still ends up wandering the Earth looking for fights.

Latter-day Mirage Raph is just latter-day Wolverine. Mellowed out in the sense that he's not an unhinged psychopath and with a certain sentimental streak, but still hard as nails.

[Warhorse]

Now, I have read some reviews on some TMNT wiki site, and there is a moment where it goes into detail when everyone is at the farm, and April is describing them in her journal, pretty much like she is in the movie, but in the comic, she actually notes that Raph stays quiet and watches over everyone on the barn roof, but there was something about him that terrified her. In other mediums, April and Raph actually had great chemistry, so I was wondering, in the comics, did April ever get over her fear of Raph, or was it something that was there to stay?

[Cipher]

Now, I have read some reviews on some TMNT wiki site, and there is a moment where it goes into detail when everyone is at the farm, and April is describing them in her journal, pretty much like she is in the movie, but in the comic, she actually notes that Raph stays quiet and watches over everyone on the barn roof, but there was something about him that terrified her. In other mediums, April and Raph actually had great chemistry, so I was wondering, in the comics, did April ever get over her fear of Raph, or was it something that was there to stay?
It isn't much brought up again, actually. The only other instance I can think of is the end of "Sons of the Silent Age" (#28, I think), which is also one of the best TMNT stories of all time.

If you want to read up on the Mirage series, don't go with the Wiki. Check out tmntentity.blogspot.com (http://www.tmntentity.blogspot.com), which is curated by a member here and has reviews for most of the series. I don't always agree with him, but the site has excellent summaries and trivia.

[Powder]

I co-sign that. Excellent blog.

[Rooish]

Maybe 2k3 Leo was OP and 2k3 Raph was "weakest," but it was way better than the b.s. 2012 cartoon wherein Raph and Leo are outright acknowledged to be better than Don and Mikey, at least at first. In Mirage Don was not a weak link in terms of fighting. I think Mikey may have been portrayed that way at first, but not for long.

I don't mind Leo being the best fighter; he's the leader after all, and in Mirage he killed Shredder, alone, after Raph acknowledged, basically, that he couldn't get to Shredder because the elite guards were kicking his butt. (Also it was Mikey that killed two out of three of the Shredder clones.) Mirage Leo was the best fighter.

[terrorblade]

Maybe 2k3 Leo was OP and 2k3 Raph was "weakest," but it was way better than the b.s. 2012 cartoon wherein Raph and Leo are outright acknowledged to be better than Don and Mikey, at least at first. In Mirage Don was not a weak link in terms of fighting. I think Mikey may have been portrayed that way at first, but not for long.

I don't mind Leo being the best fighter; he's the leader after all, and in Mirage he killed Shredder, alone, after Raph acknowledged, basically, that he couldn't get to Shredder because the elite guards were kicking his butt. (Also it was Mikey that killed two out of three of the Shredder clones.) Mirage Leo was the best fighter.

Leo is not just the best fighter in the 2k3 series, he's also a CSI.:lol:

[Casey]

Mikey's stuff, yeah, but only maybe half for Donatello. Besides, vol. 3 was written to be a canon continuation of vol. 2, with Eastman & Laird approving every single move Gary Carlson made in scripting the series. Laird is the one who decided 10 years later he no longer wanted it to be canon, but never wrote anything that contradicted the events of that volume, leaving it open to interpretation. I think most fans still consider it canon, & there are even select Tales issues that seem to insert themselves in or around that era. Plus you've got the finisher books, featuring the original creative team, which tie it into vol. 4.

Valid points. Especially on Laird's backtracking although I can't blame him. He wanted to write about his turtles in the way he left them. I'm a little confused as to how Vol. 4 doesn't completely ignore Image though? Can you explain?

[Powder]

Vol. 4 takes place a few years later, so there's a maybe 5 year gap in which the events from vol. 3 would have been resolved. It does ignore the Image books, but it doesn't go against them, per se. If you read in this order, everything flows naturally without many holes. http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2010/01/mirage-comics-continuity-timeline.html

[Rooish]

I thought Vol. 4 started with the Turtles being at least 30?

[Powder]

That may well be. Vol. 4 is the department in which I'm rusty. All I know is there was a sizable gap between the volumes' timeline...

[Bry]

I actually really like Mirage Donatello a lot because of his superiority complex and the darker places that can take him. He may be a less immediately "likeable" character compared to the cartoon versions, but I think he's a stronger one. Many highly intelligent people can feel isolated at times (hey, it's even a trope! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IntelligenceEqualsIsolation)) and deal with trouble relating to others and even some darker emotions, and depression, because of that. In Donatello's case, that's hugely amplified because he's also so much more isolated by being a mutant turtle.

It doesn't mean he's not a good person. But his social instincts can be a bit... off. He hasn't developed in a way most people can understand. It's an added struggle, and for the most part, I feel like the Mirage team handled that pretty well.

[Electric]

Maybe 2k3 Leo was OP and 2k3 Raph was "weakest," but it was way better than the b.s. 2012 cartoon wherein Raph and Leo are outright acknowledged to be better than Don and Mikey, at least at first. In Mirage Don was not a weak link in terms of fighting. I think Mikey may have been portrayed that way at first, but not for long.


i actually like the way the 2k12 cartoon is handling their fighting abilities. yeah at the beginning it was kind of a cheap shot to mikey and donnie about them not being as good of fighters as the other two, but really, its pretty accurate, for the beginning atleast, with raph the brute and leo the training obessed leader, donnie with spending his time inventing and mikey with his time spent having fun, they shouldnt be quite on the same level as the other two. and the show has definitley shown those 2 progressing in terms of ability as its gone on.

[Warhorse]

Maybe 2k3 Leo was OP and 2k3 Raph was "weakest," but it was way better than the b.s. 2012 cartoon wherein Raph and Leo are outright acknowledged to be better than Don and Mikey, at least at first. In Mirage Don was not a weak link in terms of fighting. I think Mikey may have been portrayed that way at first, but not for long.

I don't mind Leo being the best fighter; he's the leader after all, and in Mirage he killed Shredder, alone, after Raph acknowledged, basically, that he couldn't get to Shredder because the elite guards were kicking his butt. (Also it was Mikey that killed two out of three of the Shredder clones.) Mirage Leo was the best fighter.

I never understood this. If Mirage made Leo the best fighter, then why did Laird and Eastman bother inventing the other Turtles to begin with if it was not going to be a team effort? I just never understood this, everyone should have a weakness where another should have that strength to make up for it. Hell, in the Avengers, Captain America may have been the leader, but he was no where the best fighter, strongest person or the most intelligent. He was really good at getting people to stand by him despite their difference of opinions and personalities.

In other words, if you, as a leader, has to do everything yourself, then you're not much of a leader to begin with.:ohwell:

It isn't much brought up again, actually. The only other instance I can think of is the end of "Sons of the Silent Age" (#28, I think), which is also one of the best TMNT stories of all time.

If you want to read up on the Mirage series, don't go with the Wiki. Check out tmntentity.blogspot.com (http://www.tmntentity.blogspot.com), which is curated by a member here and has reviews for most of the series. I don't always agree with him, but the site has excellent summaries and trivia.

Actually, I was mistaken, this was the site I got my information to begin with.:)

[victory_angel]

i actually like the way the 2k12 cartoon is handling their fighting abilities. yeah at the beginning it was kind of a cheap shot to mikey and donnie about them not being as good of fighters as the other two, but really, its pretty accurate, for the beginning atleast, with raph the brute and leo the training obessed leader, donnie with spending his time inventing and mikey with his time spent having fun, they shouldnt be quite on the same level as the other two. and the show has definitley shown those 2 progressing in terms of ability as its gone on.

Mirage Donatello he mostly kept to himself. He would show concern about his brothers when they were injured and there were some moment where he questions who he is as a ninja. He also isn't above duking it out with his bro's or giving them death glares when he is just not in the mood with putting up with their **** at that point in time. In his elder years there is one comic where Don is running a simulation program where he faces off against the Foot and Shredder. But when an image of his brothers and himself when they were in their prime appears he freaks out and demands the computer end program and delete that image because he never wanted to see it again. And then he goes out on the deck and appears to cry indicating something tragic may have befallen his family or he may have regrets about things that may have happened in the past.

O.T. Donnie is as happy go lucky as the rest of the Turtles. And is complimented along side Leo by splinter for their dedication. However he is often treated as a joke by his companions because his technical pursuits do backfire. There are moments where he is shown telling stories about some of their battles against the Shredder but he embellishes his role in the story to make it sound like he's more skilled then he actually is. And when his skills do get brought into question, Don does attempt to prove himself which does result in himself or one of his companions getting hurt such as Night of the Dark Turtle where he's electrocuted and goes nuts. I did find his distrust and vocal dislike towards humans to come out of nowhere in the fourth episode of the first season. In Red Sky, yes it was more appropriate for them to complain because most of the city had turned against them. But in the first season the vocal dislike should have been acknowledge with their first meeting with April.

2k3 Don is a skilled fighter and his skills do compliment his brothers. However he isn't he strongest fighter on the team, but he knows his brothers have his back in most fights and where he lacks as a fighter he makes up for with his ingenuity and resourcefulness. The only time he acknowledges his failings as a fighter is during the Battle Nexus tournament when he is is defeated in the first round and he complains that his brothers wouldn't let him hear the end of it. Even then it turned out to be fortuitous because he was there to look after Leo after he was poisoned and he does get very protective to the point of refusing to let Usagi anywhere near his older brother.

In the 2012
Donnie even acknowledges himself that he isn't as skilled as his brothers in the Tales of the Turtle Lair comic on the Nick site. In his trial he has a flash back where he tells Splinter "It feels like no matter how hard I train, I just can't keep up with my brothers."

That highly depends on whether or not you see that comic as cannon.

Donnie has certainly shown more dedication to his training then say Raph and Mikey have. Such as the training session in Baxter's gambit, Donnie is the only one aside from Leo who senses when he should move. And even though he doesn't succeed that action it more then Raph or Mikey, since Mikey was too busy anticipating the strike, and Raph knew the strike would happen but didn't sense it.

And we see him in more training sessions then say Mikey or Raph.

However when his brothers are not around 2012 Donnie does excel really well as a fighter. The only time Donnie is shown really excelling as a fighter on his own with his brothers around is in Monkey Brains.

I would say Metalhead as well, but that situation was also caused by Donnie as well. As Raph does proceed to rub Donnie's face in the fact.

Personally I think there is something in Donnie's personality that is holding him back. It's not just the technical dependence, part of it may be because he doesn't see himself as anywhere close to his brothers in skill. Which is plausible seeing as he was rather surprised that he was able to take out Raph in Operation Break Out. Perhaps there is a trait that Donnie refuses to acknowledge and the more he doesn't acknowledge it the more it's going to hold him back.

[Casey]

Vol. 4 takes place a few years later, so there's a maybe 5 year gap in which the events from vol. 3 would have been resolved. It does ignore the Image books, but it doesn't go against them, per se. If you read in this order, everything flows naturally without many holes. http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2010/01/mirage-comics-continuity-timeline.html

The big issue is the damage taken by the turtles. Eyes, cyborgs etc. I see what you mean though about it casually not discussing those past years much.

[Warhorse]

Yeah, Casey comes up and starts telling Donnie about how he thinks he's better then everyone because he's so smart. Donnie tells him to go away and come back when he's sober. And when he continues to bug him he gets Donnie's wrath.

I really would love to see this play out in one of the movies, or even in the Nick toon (just take out the drunk part) We don't get, if any at all, an episode or movie where Donnie finally has a breaking point explored.

[Rooish]

I really would love to see this play out in one of the movies, or even in the Nick toon (just take out the drunk part) We don't get, if any at all, an episode or movie where Donnie finally has a breaking point explored.

In the Nick toon Don's "breaking point" is explored quite thoroughly--he's a spaz! :lol: As for why Eastman and Laird bothered to have the rest of the team if Leo was the best fighter... well, to me it makes sense that the best fighter leads because he has the best strategy both in fighting and leading. But in Mirage Leo did get kind of overpowered. Most other versions decide that at least one of the Turtles is the best fighter and don't have them completely balance out. In 2003, it's also Leo but also Mikey. In Nick it's Raph. In the OT they do seem to be equal and I must admit that was nice. I can understand Don being the worst fighter because he has this whole other set of skills, but the way it's acted out in Nick is something I really hate.

[Warhorse]

In the Nick toon Don's "breaking point" is explored quite thoroughly--he's a spaz! :lol: As for why Eastman and Laird bothered to have the rest of the team if Leo was the best fighter... well, to me it makes sense that the best fighter leads because he has the best strategy both in fighting and leading. But in Mirage Leo did get kind of overpowered. Most other versions decide that at least one of the Turtles is the best fighter and don't have them completely balance out. In 2003, it's also Leo but also Mikey. In Nick it's Raph. In the OT they do seem to be equal and I must admit that was nice. I can understand Don being the worst fighter because he has this whole other set of skills, but the way it's acted out in Nick is something I really hate.

I just like the idea that they are balanced as a team, but apart, they struggle.

I like the idea of say, Leo-good all around skill in fighting, tactics, and has an unspoken understanding of psychology and philosophy, hence his being able to predict what an enemy will try to do.
But, he lacks communication skills outside of that as a leader, so it's hard for him to come across to good people who come into the group. This is where Mikey and Raph come in handy, since they tend to form the most friendships outside of the brother hood.
When it comes to more technical stuff, I can see all three being better than Leo in this. Donnie is by far unmatched and unequal in his understanding of science, computer technology, both hardware and software, and in intricate engineering designs across the board. Mikey, I can totally see him to be the go to guy when setting up the TV, radio systems, how to work a smart phone or the software of a computer, and Raphael, I see him knowing his way around an engine.

Donnie, when it comes to the brains, cannot be beat. And for some reason, while most incarnations have shown him to be brains, but no brawn, when looking at the pics in the comics, it definitely looks like he could hold his own in an arm wrestling match. I could totally seeing him the second strongest behind Raph, just from his build alone, and I swore I read that somewhere in a comic where it was mentioned he had a peculiar physical strength about him. It seems his only real fault is almost similar to Leo's, just I feel it's more extreme in Donnie, and that's his social awkwardness/anti-social behavior. And unlike Leo, who seems to be his best counterpart, he doesn't seem to be as spiritual.

Mikey- The heart and soul of the group. Does he really have a weakness though? In the comics, I can't think of any. Just because we really don't see him kicking Shredder's ass, or building an intricate computer, doesn't mean he can't. I just found him one of those who just goes with the flow, and he is probably more at peace with himself, his surroundings and the world as a whole. He might even be a bit more on the spiritual side than Leo is. But his outgoing personality is I think his biggest strength. I mean, he's even Raph's best buddy in the comics, right? That's gotta say something about the guy.

Raph seems to be almost just like his brothers while at the same time, almost the exact opposite. Leo-he's shown as nearly as good as a fighter, but he lacks Leo's inner peace. He makes up for it by having the closest friendship with Casey and Mikey. Mikey, he's not as spiritual as Mikey, and again, doesn't share the same peace within, but he does share Mikey's outgoing personality, even though he won't admit it. And he has been shown in the comics as liking to tinker with engine, like Donnie does with most mechanic, technical stuff, and they even share to a slight degree that feeling of being alone although their tempers are about as contrasting as one could get.

Am I getting the jest of their characters in the comics? Or did I write a lot of BS?

[Rooish]

But, he lacks communication skills outside of that as a leader, so it's hard for him to come across to good people who come into the group. This is where Mikey and Raph come in handy, since they tend to form the most friendships outside of the brother hood.
When it comes to more technical stuff, I can see all three being better than Leo in this. Donnie is by far unmatched and unequal in his understanding of science, computer technology, both hardware and software, and in intricate engineering designs across the board. Mikey, I can totally see him to be the go to guy when setting up the TV, radio systems, how to work a smart phone or the software of a computer, and Raphael, I see him knowing his way around an engine.

I totally agree with this! I always thought that Mikey should have some computer geek skills and gadgets, and could pick up some of Don's knowledge by hanging out with him. Raph should know machines too.

Donnie, when it comes to the brains, cannot be beat. And for some reason, while most incarnations have shown him to be brains, but no brawn, when looking at the pics in the comics, it definitely looks like he could hold his own in an arm wrestling match. I could totally seeing him the second strongest behind Raph, just from his build alone, and I swore I read that somewhere in a comic where it was mentioned he had a peculiar physical strength about him. It seems his only real fault is almost similar to Leo's, just I feel it's more extreme in Donnie, and that's his social awkwardness/anti-social behavior. And unlike Leo, who seems to be his best counterpart, he doesn't seem to be as spiritual.

Hm, I don't remember mention of Don's physical strength in any comic. The Turtles all had the exact same build in most of the comics until recent years--and Don was not the second biggest. However he was the second biggest in build in the 1990 movie. He also did get kind of spiritual in some issues of Mirage, and he was definitely tied with Leo for most philosophical. Maybe more so.

Mikey- The heart and soul of the group. Does he really have a weakness though? In the comics, I can't think of any. Just because we really don't see him kicking Shredder's ass, or building an intricate computer, doesn't mean he can't. I just found him one of those who just goes with the flow, and he is probably more at peace with himself, his surroundings and the world as a whole. He might even be a bit more on the spiritual side than Leo is. But his outgoing personality is I think his biggest strength. I mean, he's even Raph's best buddy in the comics, right? That's gotta say something about the guy.

I think he was not portrayed as much of anything at first. He was the least important Turtle for sure. Also in the later City at War issues. He usually got injured first. But he did seem pretty at peace, pretty go with the flow an friendly and outgoing. I think the BFF thing with Raph was abandoned fairly early on because Casey showed up, but Mikey and Raph are usually close in various mediums. I never saw him portrayed as spiritual or a deep thinker really--that doesn't mean he wasn't, just that he wasn't shown as it. He was never officially the youngest, but he acted that way in that he took a back seat during all the arguments and just went with the flow.

Raph seems to be almost just like his brothers while at the same time, almost the exact opposite. Leo-he's shown as nearly as good as a fighter, but he lacks Leo's inner peace. He makes up for it by having the closest friendship with Casey and Mikey. Mikey, he's not as spiritual as Mikey, and again, doesn't share the same peace within, but he does share Mikey's outgoing personality, even though he won't admit it. And he has been shown in the comics as liking to tinker with engine, like Donnie does with most mechanic, technical stuff, and they even share to a slight degree that feeling of being alone although their tempers are about as contrasting as one could get.

Indeed... sometimes it's hard to tell who is the real outsider of the team--Don or Raph. (Actually I guess someone could argue that each Turtle is an outsider sometimes.) I think that Peter Laird basically is Donatello so when he wrote Don was more of the outsider because he thinks he's the smartest. :lol: I think that Raph embodied whatever the writers wanted him to be. He was always the most violent and quick to throw himself into a fight, but guest writers wrote him as very thoughtful and angsty and feeling separate from his brothers, while other times he was the least likely to overthink stuff.

[Warhorse]

I think he was not portrayed as much of anything at first. He was the least important Turtle for sure. Also in the later City at War issues. He usually got injured first. But he did seem pretty at peace, pretty go with the flow an friendly and outgoing. I think the BFF thing with Raph was abandoned fairly early on because Casey showed up, but Mikey and Raph are usually close in various mediums. I never saw him portrayed as spiritual or a deep thinker really--that doesn't mean he wasn't, just that he wasn't shown as it. He was never officially the youngest, but he acted that way in that he took a back seat during all the arguments and just went with the flow.
.

I probably worded Mikey's spiritual kind of wrong. What I mean to say is, Leo is spiritual in the meditation thing, and that he really has no need for the urban life and modern technology. Mikey's spiritual I feel mostly comes in the form of nature. I see him being the one to take an animal in and comforting it. Having a respect and a compassion for all living things.

[Leo656]

As far as their physical skills go, it always actually made sense to me that there would be a difference in fighting ability between them. Leo's obsessive, Raph has a ton of aggression, Mikey's a goofball and Donatello prefers tinkering to training and pacifism to fighting. To me, from "Best" to "Worst" it would be Leo, Raph, Mike, and Don.

I know some people feel like that relegates Mike and Don to the "B-Team" but I always saw that they contributed in other ways. And not that they can't fight, but they clearly wouldn't have the same skills or strategic thinking of someone who trains and studies as obsessively as Leo, or someone with the raw power and aggression of Raphael.

That's how I always saw it in my head, anyway.

[Cipher]

Yeah, I have no problem with that.

Mike and Don both have other things they like to do besides martial arts. Leo and Raph, for the most part, don't.

I disagree with earlier statements that Leo is ever too good in Mirage though. Maybe by his old age in the few future stories we see, and he's the best fighter in the group, but it's not ridiculous or anything. He does as well as any of the Turtles do against the Foot Elite in "City at War" and only manages to not get killed by Shredder in "Return to New York" because of a freak accident.

Mikey- The heart and soul of the group. Does he really have a weakness though? In the comics, I can't think of any. Just because we really don't see him kicking Shredder's ass, or building an intricate computer, doesn't mean he can't. I just found him one of those who just goes with the flow, and he is probably more at peace with himself, his surroundings and the world as a whole. He might even be a bit more on the spiritual side than Leo is. But his outgoing personality is I think his biggest strength. I mean, he's even Raph's best buddy in the comics, right? That's gotta say something about the guy.

This is pretty spot-on and why Mirage Mike is my favorite Turtle.

I never saw him portrayed as spiritual or a deep thinker really--that doesn't mean he wasn't, just that he wasn't shown as it.

He has his moments, but mostly he's just a down-to-earth, creatively inclined guy who likes making friends. Which is its own sort of philosophy.

Raph seems to be almost just like his brothers while at the same time, almost the exact opposite. Leo-he's shown as nearly as good as a fighter, but he lacks Leo's inner peace. He makes up for it by having the closest friendship with Casey and Mikey. Mikey, he's not as spiritual as Mikey, and again, doesn't share the same peace within, but he does share Mikey's outgoing personality, even though he won't admit it. And he has been shown in the comics as liking to tinker with engine, like Donnie does with most mechanic, technical stuff, and they even share to a slight degree that feeling of being alone although their tempers are about as contrasting as one could get.

I don't know that Mirage Raph is ever really "outgoing." He's protective, I would say, and really cares about helping people, but rarely opens up socially. He's the one pushing for them to do something about the Foot in "City at War" while newly realist Leo is just about ready to give up and call it a wash, for example. But when there's not something immediate he can take responsibility for, he bottles a lot up and is often off sulking by himself.

Speaking of which: Leo? That guy gets a hell of a character arc throughout the whole series when you piece it together. "Return to New York," "City at War," Volume 2, "Blind Faith," "Scars," "Loops," and "Swan Song" give him a lot of meat.

[Rooish]

As far as their physical skills go, it always actually made sense to me that there would be a difference in fighting ability between them. Leo's obsessive, Raph has a ton of aggression, Mikey's a goofball and Donatello prefers tinkering to training and pacifism to fighting. To me, from "Best" to "Worst" it would be Leo, Raph, Mike, and Don..

Yes, but this was really never said in Mirage.

[Werecat]

As far as their physical skills go, it always actually made sense to me that there would be a difference in fighting ability between them. Leo's obsessive, Raph has a ton of aggression, Mikey's a goofball and Donatello prefers tinkering to training and pacifism to fighting. To me, from "Best" to "Worst" it would be Leo, Raph, Mike, and Don.

I know some people feel like that relegates Mike and Don to the "B-Team" but I always saw that they contributed in other ways. And not that they can't fight, but they clearly wouldn't have the same skills or strategic thinking of someone who trains and studies as obsessively as Leo, or someone with the raw power and aggression of Raphael.

That's how I always saw it in my head, anyway.

In the comics it always seemed like the original idea was that the brothers were supposed to be 50/50 when it comes to win chances against each other in a fight. Each turtle has strengths and weaknesses, guided by Splinter's wisdom realize that they struggle because they try to conform to the idea of perfection instead of becoming their own person.

I always thought Leonardo's whole character development was to show the tyranny in the pursuit of perfection. His epiphany was to realize the joys that imperfection gives. He realizes he is not the best. He realizes that being the best is not what being a leader is about. Being a leader is about letting others grow just as much as him, to be unselfish.

Of course some peeps don't give a SHELL about story so they just god mode Leo and call it a day. Not realizing that they are supposed to be telling a visual story that needs a purpose to exist at all.

While I always thought Raphael's character development was to accept the monstrosity within. There is an evil inside all of us. His character is used to explore the inclination to kill. His epiphany is to remember his family and the forgotten love. Ya know the cheesiest kind of ending were love conquers all that is evil.

Sadly there is so much untapped potential in all the turtles. Each turtle offers a unique story that could have been represented better.

Instead of going on fantastical scientific adventures with Donatello we are just given the no-brained love story. I really think people underestimate Donatello too much. His character could have been so wonderful and a inspiration to view science differently. To view science as something amazing instead of a headache. But noo, instead they choose to belittle being smart. What kind of story is that!? A story that demonstrates how out of place and looked down upon you would be if you decided to pursue science stuff. Well conflict is still a good story too.

[Cryomancer]

I read the last couple Mirage issues again the other day and was reminded of how late-Mirage Michelangelo was straight up participating in a genocidal space war for fun and revenge. Like he's grossed out for a second when they murder civilians by dropping chemical weapons on them, but is right back to "ok where's the enemy I wanna bust heads" moments later. He's hanging out with murdering space racists and enjoying it.

These issues also have yet another example of Donatello hiding something from the others, even though it was done from a place of kindness.

[Cipher]

I read the last couple Mirage issues again the other day and was reminded of how late-Mirage Michelangelo was straight up participating in a genocidal space war for fun and revenge. Like he's grossed out for a second when they murder civilians by dropping chemical weapons on them, but is right back to "ok where's the enemy I wanna bust heads" moments later. He's hanging out with murdering space racists and enjoying it.
That arc isn't finished, though. We need to see where it goes.

Also, the Styracotrons did enslave him unjustly for weeks(?) months(?).

[Warhorse]

I was watching the 80's toon, and it got me thinking. Back then, when it came to fighting styles and strengths, nothing was really mentioned. Now, when people talk about it, it's Leo is the most skilled, Raph is the most strongest, Mikey the most acrobatic and speediest and Donny is the smartest.

When did these traits start to take shape? Was it in Mirage, maybe on the back of some toys, or, was it just fans coming up with stuff that never really was canon? Only time I saw Raph's strength being eluded was in the 2007 movie, when you could actually see the muscle definition in him was more considerable, but what about Mikey?

[Foombamaroom]

I was watching the 80's toon, and it got me thinking. Back then, when it came to fighting styles and strengths, nothing was really mentioned. Now, when people talk about it, it's Leo is the most skilled, Raph is the most strongest, Mikey the most acrobatic and speediest and Donny is the smartest.

When did these traits start to take shape? Was it in Mirage, maybe on the back of some toys, or, was it just fans coming up with stuff that never really was canon? Only time I saw Raph's strength being eluded was in the 2007 movie, when you could actually see the muscle definition in him was more considerable, but what about Mikey?

I didn't like the 80's cartoon compared to the rest of the TMNT series: It butchered Raph and Mikey completely.

Reading the Mirage comics, I always did assume Leo was the most skilled and Raph was the strongest. It was heavily implied that Donnie was the smart one, but I don't remember him making nearly as many gadgets as he did in the cartoons. I don't think it's ever been said that Mikey is the fastest.

[musashi-kamiizumi]

The loner angle that is often played up with Raph in the films & cartoons is moreso Donnie's role in the comics. He's quite a dark guy, actually. He's killed animals in the name of science, beat up a drunk Casey Jones, kept Baxter Stockman in a dungeon for like 2 years without his brothers knowledge, cloned Splinter, built a robot version of April after she died, when he was a cyborg and struggling to deal with it he threatened to kill his brothers before pulling the trigger to his own head (though the suit had an override that prevented self-harm). Like I said, dark.

Jesus, Donnie! Man, I want to go back and read those comics now. I am a glutton for darkness.

[Warhorse]

I didn't like the 80's cartoon compared to the rest of the TMNT series: It butchered Raph and Mikey completely.

Reading the Mirage comics, I always did assume Leo was the most skilled and Raph was the strongest. It was heavily implied that Donnie was the smart one, but I don't remember him making nearly as many gadgets as he did in the cartoons. I don't think it's ever been said that Mikey is the fastest.

Was Raph's strength ever actually outlined in the comics? I mean, even in the cartoons, it's not too much shown, like I said, the only time I seen it truly implied was in the 2007 toon. Now, I know he's supposed to be the toughest, taking the most hits and shrugging them off he best out of the four. As for Mikey, I think his speed thing started in one of them roll playing games and grew from there. If his strength is not his speed, then it would definitely be his natural athletic talents. He's been nearly depicted as skilled as Leo and Raph, but with half the training and focus on it.

[musashi-kamiizumi]

Yeah, I think it's mentioned in more than one source that Mikey has the most natural ability, and would easily be stronger than any of his brothers if he had the focus and the drive to do so.