10 Ways To Make Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 Not Suck [Archive]

Powder

01-08-2015, 07:52 PM

Thanks, Xav. Well, based on key points alone, I agree with the bulk of it.

1. Shredder I think is in some way a necessity, but he should be built up & saved for the grand finale, maybe.

2.Brotherly love is probably the most important thing, given the family themes of TMNT. It needs to have some hang-out time. Playing games, talking about life, eating breakfast, anything. We didn't see much of the turtles' personalities, but they weren't totally off, so let's get more of that (minus the toilet jokes, please).

3. I have my fair share of qualms with the 4kids series but given it's based on Mirage, sure, lets take some queues from there. The more serious tone could help, potentially. Making Baxter a key player in the same vein as in 2003 would also be dope.

4. It'd be kind hard to "improve" the designs at this point, they could shave off a few accessories/armor pieces, I guess, but I imagine people take issue with the facial features most of all, so it may be a lost cause. While I'm still not a fan of the latest designs & made a big fuss up until I saw the film, they are in my opinion the least of our troubles, & while I never grew to like them, I did get used to them.

5. Visible action, yes, could use some decent fight choreography. Study Jackie Chan films, I say. Flashy blocking, lots of jumping around, some prop damage & slapstick.

6. Nina stuff, word, the turtles are so big though, I dunno, it might be too late for that. More shadow play though? Absolutely.

7. Casey is a favorite of mine but these films are a little cluttered character-wise, IMO, so I think they'd be better off fleshing out the rest of them before adding more.

8. April definitely needs to take a back-seat, agreed.

9. No more retreading origin-wise, sure. Well, I mean, if they want to try & make more sense of what they have established with new changes, alright I guess, if it will be less convoluted, go for it. Adding Yoshi would probably only complicate things, & I'd rather they not make anyone/thing more inter-connected than it already is.

10. Some added professional fans as creative consultants or whatever? Yes, do that.

Redeemer

01-08-2015, 07:53 PM

I disagree with a lot of these. They felt like brothers to me, I liked the designs, I thought the action was tight, and they should not look to the 2003 show for inspiration. That show is not good, in my opinion.

It wasn't saying to use the same designs as the 2k3 show, but it was specifically giving praise for the way they adapted the stories from the original comics and the voice acting.

I think number 8 is the best point.

Cure

01-08-2015, 07:56 PM

It wasn't saying to use the same designs as the 2k3 show, but it was specifically giving praise for the way they adapted the stories from the original comics and the voice acting.

I...know that. I never said it was about the designs? I don't like the stories from 2003 and definitely not the voices, especially Raphael's.

MikeandRaph87

01-08-2015, 07:59 PM

Right in every account however #10 needs to be switched out for use of secondary characters that will make the most out of them whether its Karai or Irma or Casey Jones or even Bebop and Rocksteady. Not just have them in a few scenes and be irrelevant. Shredder on the other hand is necessary. For some reason TMNT actually made up villains for the movie. What other comic book heroes had to face a made up foe for their film? Shredder is their best villain and has been featured in the two best films. If he is not the central focus he needs to be the driving force or involved somehow with Krang, Rat King, Karai, or Baxter Stockman.

Redeemer

01-08-2015, 08:02 PM

10.No Shredder
First and foremost, the sequel needs another villain besides the Shredder. Much like the X-Men movies seem to think that Magneto is the only villain who matters, the Turtles are starting to think it’s all about the Shredder. A lot of this is due to the influence of the animated series from the late 80s and early 90s, where Shredder pretty much was the sole villain, or at least the driving force behind most other villains.
But the Turtles do have other villains. If you must use the Foot, then instead of the Shredder why not use his daughter, Karai, or Baxter Stockman? Both had small parts in the reboot, so there’s already reason to use them. Or what about the Rat King, an enigmatic and creepy character that can give us a Turtles film with a completely different tone from anything seen before. Or go full-on galactic and bring in the Triceraton.
It’s time to give the Shredder a break, especially after the awful way he was treated in this reboot. He served as little more than a henchman and for some bizarre reason, was given a mech suit with ridiculously impractical weapons. Give another villain the spotlight to differentiate from the first movie and bring the Shredder back in grand fashion in a future sequel.
9. Brotherly Love
The most important thing anyone who approaches this franchise needs to know is that the Turtles are brothers, first and foremost. They fight, they squabble, they bicker, but deep down they all love each other. That kind of camaraderie really felt absent from the reboot. Oh sure, the personalities of the characters and their relationships were paid lip-service to, but overall it just felt like a veneer of who the characters really are. Leo’s the stoic leader, Raph’s the trouble-maker, Don’s the smart guy and Mikey’s the goofball. These stock characteristics were present, but there was precious little chance to get to know the characters or their relationships.
One of the reasons for this was because the Turtles were basically supporting characters in their own film (more on that later). To really get a feel for the brothers and their relationships means having to devote the proper screentime to them. Arguably the best scene in the reboot was when the Turtles were riding in the elevator and they all start beat-boxing.
It was a great moment that showcased their youthful characteristics. Or look back to some of the quiet scenes from the very first Turtles movie, like the conversation between Don and Mikey while they’re waiting for the pizza delivery guy, or when Mike’s trying to wow April with his impressions and Raph mutters, “oh no, not Cagney…” These little moments are what’s needed to show who these characters are and that they have history.

Redeemer

01-08-2015, 08:04 PM

8.Look to the 2003 series
The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles animated series from 2003 is the gold standard for Turtles adaptations, and all other adaptations should take a cue from it. Not only was the animation superb, but the writing and voice acting were all excellent. Moreover, it managed to find the perfect balance between the extremes of the Turtles. For the uninitiated, the Mirage comics that started everything were actually pretty dark and violent. Many fans were shocked when they saw the 1987 animated series, because it was such an extreme departure from the source material.
But the first movie managed to find something of a balance between the two. The 2003 series did so even more, and the CGI film followed in the same vein. Unfortunately, the ’87 cartoon is so dominant in the collective consciousness that pretty much every single adaptation uses it as a template. Which means lots of goofy humor and a very lax approach to storytelling. Rumor has it that Bebop, Rocksteady, and possibly even Krang will be in the sequel; all of which would be a huge mistake. Stop borrowing elements from the ’87 series and look to the 2003 version.
The 2003 series is one of the best version of the Turtles. It still kept some of the humorous elements as the ’87 series, but it also had a bit of a darker edge that was closer to the comics. The characters all had individual personalities as well, just as in the comics, and both April and Casey were more accurately represented. This is what future filmmakers should look to if they’re struggling to figure out how to balance the very different interpretations of the Turtles.
7.Improved Designs
The designs for the reboot are overall extremely ugly. The decision to add nostrils and lips to the Turtles was reportedly done to humanize them, but it only made them look like freakish nightmare fuel. All the added junk they’re wearing was also extremely unnecessary, with the only intention being to drive home the characteristics of the brothers without bothering with silly little things like character development.
Instead, they presented Leo with a chestplate and leather grieves to give the impression that he’s staying true to the samurai roots, Raph wears a leather loincloth and sunglasses to show he’s a badass, Mike has wetsuit pants and a sweater tied around his waist to show he’s laid back, and Donny has taped glasses and what looks like Ghostbusters cosplay to show that he’s the nerd.
Then there’s also the size of the characters. The Turtles are supposed to be human-sized: they’re light on their feet, quick, but in the reboot they look like they could give the Hulk a run for his money. Remember the line from the very first issue of the comic: “we strike hard and fade away into the night.” Well, the reboot Turtles can strike hard, but they’re not fading away.
Splinter and the Shredder didn’t fare much better, what with Splinter sporting Fu Manchu-type whiskers (and it wouldn’t be a Bay-produced film without some not-so-subtle racist elements) and Shredder plodding around in a suit of armor that makes Iron Man’s Hulkbuster look downright subtle in comparison.
6.Visible Action
Does director Jonathan Liebesman know what a tripod is? Does he know how to use one? When fans go to a Ninja Turtles movie, they expect to actually be able to see the Turtles, especially during the action scenes, but with so much frantic jump-cutting and close-ups, the film delivered no more than a visual mess that makes it impossible to follow.
This isn’t only a problem with the Turtles reboot, but is a problem with modern-day action movies as well. Ever since the Bourne sequels, far too many think that the proper way to film an action scene is to do so by making the action completely incomprehensible.
The first live-action Turtles movie offered believable action when they were working with puppets and rubber suits. CGI today is so advanced that it made a wise-cracking raccoon with a machine gun and a walking tree look completely realistic in Guardians Of The Galaxy, so there is absolutely no reason why anyone should be subjected to fight scenes of the Turtles that are barely followable.
The key component of an action movie is the action, and that means that the viewers have to actually be able to see the action. These scenes should thrill, not inspire motion sickness. Pull back the camera.

TigerClaw

01-08-2015, 08:05 PM

I loved the 2014 movie, The only thing i want improved for the sequel? a longer running time.

at least make the sequel 2 hours, But don't go 2 hours and a half, 2 hours is enough for character development. the 1st film was only 1 hour and 41 minutes, They actually shot stuff that didn't make the final cut, For example, Raph in a trench coat, They need to bring that for the sequel.

Redeemer

01-08-2015, 08:07 PM

5.Don't Forget They're Ninjas
It’s right there in the name – Teenage Mutant NINJA Turtles. Bay and Liebesman apparently have no idea what the word ninja means, so it’s probably helpful to give them a hint: ninjas aren’t commandos, ninjas aren’t slow-moving mechs, ninjas aren’t giant creatures that can knock over a Hummer.
Ninjas are stealthy, quick, efficient killers. Ninjas rely on silent, close-quarters weapons. They don’t use assault rifles. Remember the “ninja” part of the title. The Shredder especially needs to be mobile, but the armor he’s given in the movie is so ridiculous, it looks like it belongs in a parody of the Turtles. This Shredder can’t handle stealth, because every step he makes causes a tremor and can be heard from miles away.
The Foot are a clan of ninja warriors, and the Turtles are also supposed to have that same training. When the Foot strike, you’re not supposed to know they’ve been there and the same goes for the Turtles. It’s how they remained unseen for so many years, because they were good at slinking back into the shadows once they did their job.
But Bay and Liebesman apparently have no patience for any kind of subtlety. Everything has to be loud and bombastic, right down to redefining the word ninja as plodding giants who don’t know the meaning of the word silence.
4.Bring Back Casey Jones
Casey Jones was reportedly supposed to be in this movie, but the script was rewritten and he was replaced by Vernon Fenwick.
Just let that sink in for a minute: Casey Jones, a long-time friend and ally of the Turtles, who has been a major part of their supporting cast and is a total bad-ass, was replaced by Vernon Fenwick, an irritating, inferior character created for the ’87 cartoon.
That right there sums up how little the film-makers understand this property.
Casey is integral to the Turtles: both he and April provide something of a humanizing point of view for them, and it also shows that the heroes don’t only need to be mutated amphibians. Casey fights right alongside the Turtles, holding his own the entire time. He was an integral aspect of the comics, the 2003 series, and the CGI film. Not to mention being played pitch-perfectly by Elias Koteas in the first live-action film.
As much fun as Will Arnett is, not even he can make Vernon likable. So for the sequel, get rid of Vernon and the rest of the Channel 6 news studio. Every single one of those characters was a waste of film and had absolutely nothing of value to add. Casey Jones alone adds more to the Turtles than all those worthless characters combined.
3.April is Not the star
It’s called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, not April and Her Green Team, but the filmmakers chose to make April the star of the film, which is like making an Avengers movie where Maria Hill is the main character.
April is a supporting character. She acts as a point-of-view character for the audience, but ultimately the movie is about the Turtles, not her, which is clearly a problem for Michael Bay. His Transformers films focus more on the humans than the Transformers and now he’s doing the exact same thing to the Turtles.
Nobody goes to a Turtles movie to watch the Turtles act as April’s supporting cast; fans go to a Turtles movie because they want to see the Turtles. If Bay wants to make movies where Megan Fox is the star, then come up with a franchise for her to helm, but don’t reduce the Turtles to supporting roles in their own film.
If you can’t find a way to make a Turtles movie that doesn’t feature April as the star, then you should not be making a Turtles movie. It’s really as simple as that.

Redeemer

01-08-2015, 08:08 PM

2.No more Origin
Origin stories have gotten pretty old, and there have been a slew of them lately, whether they’re necessary or not. Everyone knows that Superman was rocketed from a doomed planet and raised by a kindly farmer and his wife, and that Batman swore to fight crime after watching his parents gunned down Likewise it’s well known that Spider-Man learned that with great power comes great responsibility after inadvertently having a part in the death of his uncle, and that the Turtles were transformed by mutagen and trained in the martial arts by Splinter.
So no more origin.
Especially the awful one that the filmmakers came up with for this reboot. Gone is Hamato Yoshi and instead, Splinter taught the Turtles how to be ninja masters from a book someone flushed down the toilet. Yes the notion of Splinter learning ninjutsu by mimicking Yoshi’s movements from his cage is a bit unrealistic, but teaching the Turtles how to be ninja masters from a book stretches the suspension of disbelief.
The new origin adds fixes that were never necessary. Throughout the Turtles’ entire thirty-year history, not once did anyone ever say, “this would make so much more sense if April were connected to the Turtles’ origin.” Just do everyone a favor and forget you ever established this origin, ignore it and move on.
1.Find a Team that actually likes the Turtles
Throughout every step of this film’s production, it was very clear that neither Michael Bay nor Jonathan Liebesman had any real connection to the Turtles. While sitting through those painful hundred minutes, not once did it ever seem like anyone involved really cared about this property. As Mark Olsen of the Los Angeles Times said, “There is something half-hearted about the entire film, as if those behind it were involved not because they wanted to make it, not because they should make it, but just because they could.”
That is as perfect a description of Bay and Liebesman’s approach as you’re ever going to get. The movie feels like it was made by people who didn’t care about the Turtles, didn’t bother to understand why people love these characters, but just because it was there and they could make it. With the Marvel films, there’s a genuine sense that the filmmakers involved really care about these characters. The same goes for Kevin Munroe’s CGI film. But there’s no heart to this reboot, it’s just a soulless cash grab made by people who will never even bother to try to understand these characters.
Jonathan Liebesman won’t return to direct the sequel, so we’re already off to a good start. Now if only we could get Michael Bay to give up his producer’s chair to someone who actually likes the Turtles.

Are you excited to see the Turtles sequel? Share your thoughts on how to improve it in the comments thread below.

Commenter 42

01-08-2015, 08:12 PM

It wasn't saying to use the same designs as the 2k3 show, but it was specifically giving praise for the way they adapted the stories from the original comics and the voice acting.

I think number 8 is the best point.

I think number 5 is the better point. We heard they were ninja's, but there was no ninja-ing going on.

I've never really liked the 2003 series, it wasn't so much a good translation of Mirage, just the closest when compared to the OT. I think Turtles Forever did Mirage best.

NinjaPug

01-08-2015, 08:21 PM

Remember when people tried to compare the fights to The Raid? Haha, good times.

Bry

01-08-2015, 08:27 PM

Ha! I was trying to copy/paste the whole article, which it turned out was too many characters for one post, and in the meantime Redeemer did it all anyway.

But yeah - I agree with the majority of this, and the points were well-made.

The only points I disagree on were "No Shredder" and "No Origin", but that's only because those things were so badly-handled in this movie and deserve to be done justice in a modern film.

But they make a great point about the Shredder not being the only villain that matters. I'm always going to be crossing my fingers for a truly great "City at War" adaptation, because I feel the Shredder's best role was always his absence and the quagmire that created. An interesting/deep and action-packed movie that delves into the messy side and aftermath of vengeance would be incredible, and the story's already there - they just need a filmmaker and storyteller with actual talent to bring it to the big screen. It's the perfect capper to a trilogy, so hey, maybe next reboot...

Reading the "Brotherly Love" section in particular hits me. Especially the image used. Because they sold so much about these characters and their relationships in subtle, believable ways in the 1990 movie that I'm worried we'll never see done that well again as long as the current "powers that be" are calling the shots. The Donnie/Mikey "waiting for pizza" scene was quite well-written and says a lot about who they are if you read between the lines. Even as a kid, I loved how the movie expected me to "get it" and keep up. We need that kind of respect for audiences back - especially young ones.

pennydreadful

01-08-2015, 08:34 PM

Hmm, thanks for posting that more in-depth, Redeemer. :tgrin: I feel like all of the points were pretty spot-on, myself.

TrickOrTreater

01-08-2015, 08:34 PM

Remember when people tried to compare the fights to The Raid? Haha, good times.

I remember so many funny, funny things that were said as assurances before the movie came out.

The Turtles using lots of Ninja abilities. No, they didn't.

Raid-style fighting. Nope, none.

The "foot" being ninjas/using ninja weaponry. Not a single solitary aspect.

The Turtles NOT being super strong and throwing shipping containers around. Lololololololol

Yeah. Good times. Goooooood times.

oldmanwinters

01-08-2015, 08:36 PM

Oh, I thought this was gonna be a Secret of the Ooze article. I was gonna say... it's far from perfect but I enjoy that film!

TrickOrTreater

01-08-2015, 08:38 PM

Oh, I thought this was gonna be a Secret of the Ooze article. I was gonna say... it's far from perfect but I enjoy that film!

Where the 1990 movie was a perfect blend of the original comics and the original cartoon while also being a fantastic movie, SotO is a fantastic adaptation of just the original cartoon.

It's a lot of fun, very enjoyable to watch, but still retains a lot of heart and magic needed.

Commenter 42

01-08-2015, 09:14 PM

Where the 1990 movie was a perfect blend of the original comics and the original cartoon while also being a fantastic movie, SotO is a fantastic adaptation of just the original cartoon.

It's a lot of fun, very enjoyable to watch, but still retains a lot of heart and magic needed.

Well, Riff Traxx has levied their two cents (http://www.rifftrax.com/the-worst-movies-of-2014)

With 32,000 votes TMNT2014 is their worst movie of the year!

Bry

01-08-2015, 09:17 PM

TrickOrTreater

01-08-2015, 09:23 PM

Well, Riff Traxx has levied their two cents (http://www.rifftrax.com/the-worst-movies-of-2014)

With 32,000 votes TMNT2014 is their worst movie of the year!

Glorious.

Does this mean they're gonna take it on? Because that might be the only way I watch this movie again.

I am dying, DYING, for the three of them to do this movie.

The entire time I was watching it, I kept thinking "this movie deserves a coal raking."

It'd be perfect for it.

Commenter 42

01-08-2015, 10:16 PM

I am dying, DYING, for the three of them to do this movie.

The entire time I was watching it, I kept thinking "this movie deserves a coal raking."

It'd be perfect for it.

I am so tired of writing TMNT2014 or Bayturtles, or the film from this year etc.

I think it needs shortening to PDNT, unless y'all have something better.

pennydreadful

01-08-2015, 10:34 PM

I think it needs shortening to PDNT, unless y'all have something better.

I'm sure some folks here can think of a few things... :P

TrickOrTreater

01-08-2015, 10:39 PM

I am so tired of writing TMNT2014 or Bayturtles, or the film from this year etc.

I think it needs shortening to PDNT, unless y'all have something better.

I'm sure some folks here can think of a few things... :P

All of which is censored on this board.

But I just write BayTurtles. Cause that's more or less what it is. Michael Bay's "Ninja" Turtles.

TigerClaw

01-08-2015, 10:41 PM

I'll continue calling it TMNT2014, Cause its the only way i can tell which version is which by just the Years.

Powder

01-09-2015, 12:49 AM

Where the 1990 movie was a perfect blend of the original comics and the original cartoon while also being a fantastic movie, SotO is a fantastic adaptation of just the original cartoon.

It's a lot of fun, very enjoyable to watch, but still retains a lot of heart and magic needed.

I completely agree. I've always said the same. The first film is the comics, the second is the cartoon, & the third is an amalgamation (the story is partially adapted from Vol. 1 #17 but obviously the tone is VERY Fred Wolf).

pennydreadful

01-09-2015, 03:41 AM

But I just write BayTurtles. Cause that's more or less what it is. Michael Bay's "Ninja" Turtles.

Yeah, I'm gonna just keep referring to it as BayTurtles, myself. It's nearly impossible for me to think of it as anything else.

Bry

01-09-2015, 05:49 AM

Yeah, I'm gonna just keep referring to it as BayTurtles, myself. It's nearly impossible for me to think of it as anything else.

"BayTurtles" makes it sound like something completely different, kinda removed from the overall property. Which I find very helpful. :trazz:

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-09-2015, 07:06 AM

I actually liked the new designs; four individuals should have four different styles... I just wish they'd gone a little easier on Don's nerdy Ghostbusters gear.

But other than that, this guy makes the same case I think most of us have been griping about. Especially Point #1.

Luigiperps

01-09-2015, 07:11 AM

Xiewin

01-09-2015, 07:25 AM

Myko

01-09-2015, 07:35 AM

I completely agree. I've always said the same. The first film is the comics, the second is the cartoon, & the third is an amalgamation (the story is partially adapted from Vol. 1 #17 but obviously the tone is VERY Fred Wolf).

The third is like a poor issue of the Archie comic.

Commenter 42

01-09-2015, 09:18 AM

If the designs had been good, and the origin been correct to either Mirage or FW, I could have overlooked many of the other issues.

I really hoped Fox would prove the fans wrong, and deliver a great performance. I realize now I backed the wrong horse :P.

If they bring anyone back at all, it needs to be Tohoru Masamune. He was actually good in his brief role, and has a great voice, and was the only one to turn in a good performance.

In any event, I hope this doesn't become a trend, but looks as though PDMT and IDW have rewritten the origin as far as most are concerned.
http://www.kidzworld.com/article/29211-tmnt-and-the-exotic-wildlife-turtle-cam-interview

From the link:
""We all know that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles started out as abandoned scientific pets - Kidzworld caught up with Corey, an Outreach Coordinator ...

ugh.

Bry

01-09-2015, 09:52 AM

In any event, I hope this doesn't become a trend, but looks as though PDMT and IDW have rewritten the origin as far as most are concerned.
http://www.kidzworld.com/article/29211-tmnt-and-the-exotic-wildlife-turtle-cam-interview

From the link:
""We all know that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles started out as abandoned scientific pets - Kidzworld caught up with Corey, an Outreach Coordinator ...

ugh.

http://media.giphy.com/media/ToMjGpx9F5ktZw8qPUQ/giphy.gif

That was really my main concern here - that this version would supplant all the good ones in the public eye somehow, and that the original origin, the one that actually matters and gives the characters and their world some depth and an actual theme, would be forgotten.

I mean... I don't think it's gonna happen, exactly. There are still too many talented folks involved in the franchise (Nick and IDW, mainly) with respect for the property who won't let that happen. But that's not a door that should have been opened.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-09-2015, 09:58 AM

Bry

01-09-2015, 10:01 AM

It's the complete lack of any Saki/Yoshi connection that gets me. As long as you preserve that and the vengeance theme, then sure, go nuts. But without that as a starting point, the characters and their motivations suffer a lot.

I can be a bit of a Mirage purist and still prefer that version the most, but IDW handled their changes very well. The BayTurtles writers... did not.

Commenter 42

01-09-2015, 10:14 AM

I don't see the big deal here... after all, the IDW origin involves the Turtles being lab experiments as well. (And reincarnated Japanese children as well.) And honestly, I think the IDW origin is the best of all the different TMNT origins.

Sorry, but it just bears repeating

http://media.giphy.com/media/ToMjGpx9F5ktZw8qPUQ/giphy.gif

The "new" origin devalues the story. It's not even remotely interesting, specifically because it removes the entire thrust of the story itself.

It's cool that you prefer it, and I don't wish to argue with you, but that's simply just not the story; it's an adaptation of the story.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-09-2015, 12:20 PM

10. No Shredder - Yes. We've seen Shredder 1 million times already. Have him return for the 3rd movie.

9. Brotherly Love - I thought there was plenty of this already, except the movie is too short. Longer movie lends itself to more brotherly interactions.

8. Look To The 2003 Series - NO NO NO NO NO. The animation and acting is terrible, not sure what show this person was watching. To me the show is virtually unwatchable.

7. Improved Designs - I agree only if they are subtle changes. Any major changes need to be written into the story. I have never watched TMNT II or III without being bothered by how different the turtles look from the 1990 movie.

6. Visible Action - Yes. Now that the story is out of the way, we can set up simple "Turtles vs bad guys". They can have a ton of action in the new one and I think that's what everyone wants.

5. Don’t Forget They’re Ninjas - This has pretty much never been represented in TMNT movies, except maybe the 1990 movie, and a little in the sequel.

4. Bring Back Casey Jones - Yes please. Casey can be added almost like a 5th Turtle, he does not need his own story, he can just be there with them, fighting and interacting. He should not, and can not be the focus of the movie.

3. April Is Not The Star - I disagree that April was the star of the first movie, you could say she's the star of the 1990 movie if you really think about it. I do agree less is better. The one thing the SOTO did was giving her really zero importance, she's just kind of there to set up jokes. That's how it should be in the new movie.

2. No More Origin - YES. The best thing to compare to is The Dark Knight. They didn't refer to Batman Begins one time. It's a stand alone movie out of the trilogy. We know what happened to the Turtles, we do not need to keep talking about it. We need to see them save the city.

1. Find A Team That Actually Likes The Turtles - Well, I'm not going to say the people involved didn't like the turtles, Bay most likely was not a fan at all, but Leibesman and Brad Fuller talked a lot about being fans. I'm just not sure they're fans of the right things when it comes to TMNT. They really should hire a group of fans to run things past before approving the script, I don't see why movie studios don't do this in the first place. Especially with how "fanboys" criticize every single comic book movie that gets made.

I am so tired of writing TMNT2014 or Bayturtles, or the film from this year etc.

I think it needs shortening to PDNT, unless y'all have something better.

Just call it Ninja Turtles...they made the "Teenage Mutant" part so small on every poster anyway, and Ninja Turtles is what they wanted to call it before the backlash.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-09-2015, 01:48 PM

Oh, I agree--they COMPLETELY botched the Saki/Yoshi backstory. But in the original comics, the mutation of the Turtles and the ninja portion of their origin (Yoshi/Saki/Foot Clan) are two separate issues. That's what I meant.

I'm fine with them being mutated as science experiments rather than by accident. But learning ninjitsu from a book? :roll: And Shredder and Splinter knowing and hating each other because... reasons?

IndigoErth

01-09-2015, 03:11 PM

The "new" origin devalues the story.
Pretty much sums it up for me. If people want to tinker with different ideas, fine, go for it... but if "lab animals" becomes the norm... wtf.

Origin (imo) matters/means more with a bit of serendipity. Fun word, funner result.

Bloodsucker

01-09-2015, 03:36 PM

Hello everybody! I am back from the vacation! How are you all!
I agree with the most parts of what is said, but still think it could be the best thing to start again all over from the start. I think it will be very possible the sequel will be worse than before, but my new year plan is to be more than optometrist. Ill be very happy if it comes out better this time.

IndigoErth

01-09-2015, 03:45 PM

Oh no, run!
I mean... Hey. :)

God I hope it's not worse... please let it be one of those select films that manages to improve with the second. I know that's asking a lot because most can't accomplish that, but fingers crossed for now, at least until we start hearing about what's planned. I just hope they are a bit more open and no so under wraps for so long this time.

And good luck with the optometry.
my new year plan is to be more than optometrist.

Bloodsucker

01-09-2015, 03:46 PM

Galactus

01-09-2015, 04:04 PM

Sadly I feel this was inevitable. I distinctly remember a press release when the first trailer hit saying how the origin and story would be based on the original comics as opposed to the animates series.

A lot of the people involved certainly made similar comments even down the guy who designed the turtles publicly stating they were based on the original Eastman and Laird takes. Even the two Williams Fichtner and Arnett talked as if their roles were taken from comics - not that I'm blaming them obviously they were just misled in that regard.

It should really come as no surprise that others fell for it too. You don't have to look far on the net for defenders of the movie that don't know any better to say that fans shouldn't moan as it was true to the original comics books or the '03 series because that's what they've read.

It's often asked why Hollywood bothers with origin movies for comic book heroes when everyone knows the origins and not just jump in but I do think the general public needs to be leaned in to these things and with TMNT I don't think everyone really did know the origin anyway. This movie had muddies waters further.

I don't see the big deal here... after all, the IDW origin involves the Turtles being lab experiments as well. (And reincarnated Japanese children as well.) And honestly, I think the IDW origin is the best of all the different TMNT origins. Platinum Dunes just didn't do the new origin WELL.

Well I give the movie this; by setting the lab origin 15 years in the past it overlooks IDW's insta-mutation which I don't think works in a world which is supposed to be at least semi-serious.

As you might guess I'm not the biggest fan of the IDW books and especially their origin. It actually has a practical drawback when it comes to the other mutant characters. If we're to accept the turtles and Splinter could quickly become intelligent due to them being reincarnated than what about all the other mutant characters? I know they've addressed this but not in a satisfactory way imo. I know Bobby Curnow said they would do things differently if they could go back to those first issues and I often wonder if it was in reference to this.

This is where simplicity works better. Trying to come up with origins where everything is connected sounds cool but more often than not it makes things far more complicated especially when it's overdone like the new movie.

TrickOrTreater

01-09-2015, 04:25 PM

Autbot_Benz

01-09-2015, 04:35 PM

Galactus

01-09-2015, 04:43 PM

God I hope it's not worse... please let it be one of those select films that manages to improve with the second. I know that's asking a lot because most can't accomplish that, but fingers crossed for now, at least until we start hearing about what's planned. I just hope they are a bit more open and no so under wraps for so long this time.

There are quite a few sequels that are better than the first movie. Sadly I can't think of a good sequel to a truly awful movie.

10. No Shredder - Yes. We've seen Shredder 1 million times already. Have him return for the 3rd movie.

Not only is it unlikely that Platinum Dunes will let go of their heroin like addiction to the superficial aspects of the Fred Wolf show where Shredder was an almost ever-present enemy I'm not sure Bebop and Rocksteady really work without Shredder. Why would they be made into mutants if not by the Foot to get revenge and who would be in charge of the Foot? Hopefully not Eric Sacks.

Not to mention I'd like the movie to at least try and give a good Shredder and TMNT connection - to fix the mess the 2014 movie did with story of course the odds of that are slim to none.

9. Brotherly Love - I thought there was plenty of this already, except the movie is too short. Longer movie lends itself to more brotherly interactions.

There really wasn't. It's implied relying on knowledge of previous versions but never shown.

8. Look To The 2003 Series - NO NO NO NO NO. The animation and acting is terrible, not sure what show this person was watching. To me the show is virtually unwatchable.

YES YES YES YES YES....well maybe.

It was a great show, popular among the fans and if they were going to base it on one animated series this is the one they should go for. They wont but they should.

7. Improved Designs - I agree only if they are subtle changes. Any major changes need to be written into the story. I have never watched TMNT II or III without being bothered by how different the turtles look from the 1990 movie.

I don't think the integrity of the 2014 movie is worth preserving.

Unlikely to happen as despite their knowledge that no one really liked it hence their promise of a different direction they're still going to want to sell this credibly as a sequel so sadly I don't think they going to change much.

I know it's shallow but one thing I really would like is if they got rid of the loin cloths and Donatello using mother boards and crotch coverings. It just looks stupid. Then again their over abundance of crap has got to go too.

6. Visible Action - Yes. Now that the story is out of the way, we can set up simple "Turtles vs bad guys". They can have a ton of action in the new one and I think that's what everyone wants.

I think easy to see action is more important. When the action really got started it was difficult to tell which turtle was which and that's even with Bay's insistence that all the turtles have to look different to help even the stupidest person to tell them apart.

I don't think we'll get more action - at least not involving the turtles. The cgi characters cost too damn much.

5. Don’t Forget They’re Ninjas - This has pretty much never been represented in TMNT movies, except maybe the 1990 movie, and a little in the sequel.

It isn't it about time it was represented?

I actually thought it was admirable that they included some attempts at the turtles being stealthy but then quickly devalued when the started tossing around cargo containers. :roll:

Sadly I don't see a movie involving Rocksteady and Bebop having much of that. That wouldn't be too bad if we'd gotten some actual ninja stuff in this movie.:-?

4. Bring Back Casey Jones - Yes please. Casey can be added almost like a 5th Turtle, he does not need his own story, he can just be there with them, fighting and interacting. He should not, and can not be the focus of the movie.

That's not an option really, is it?

I don't know why people expect the focus of the sequel will change to the titular characters when they just flat out can't afford that. People go one about the supposed draw backs of the the rubber suits but that's a huge one with the motion capture.

I wouldn't mind a back story for Casey taken from Tales of the TMNT and the '03 series but that's unlikely to happen.

2. No More Origin - YES. The best thing to compare to is The Dark Knight. They didn't refer to Batman Begins one time. It's a stand alone movie out of the trilogy. We know what happened to the Turtles, we do not need to keep talking about it. We need to see them save the city.

Yes but Batman Begins nailed the origin. The TMNT 2014 movie badly botched it.

I'm on the fence about this because I'd love for them to somehow fix the origin but I can't say I trust them to do it a good way. Even if the sequel is great it's still going to be an elephant in the room that the turtles learned ninjitsu from a book and have no connection to the guy they're fighting,

1. Find A Team That Actually Likes The Turtles - Well, I'm not going to say the people involved didn't like the turtles, Bay most likely was not a fan at all, but Leibesman and Brad Fuller talked a lot about being fans. I'm just not sure they're fans of the right things when it comes to TMNT. They really should hire a group of fans to run things past before approving the script, I don't see why movie studios don't do this in the first place. Especially with how "fanboys" criticize every single comic book movie that gets made.

Pretty much everyone involved that could believably be passed off as a fan fell over themselves to tell us in interviews what huge fans of the franchise they were however I'm not sure I believed any of them.

I understand that researching something called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles may seem a ridiculous act but not only did they sign on for it so it's implied in their job description but if they were fans surely they wouldn't mind delving into it but all we got was them looking at still pictures.

I also think Leibesman tone at comic con kinda betrayed that he wasn't that interested - to be fair to him I think at that point he's given up trying to justify all the changes to a reluctant audience and just felt like shrugging his shoulders at the whole thing.

TigerClaw

01-09-2015, 04:48 PM

There are quite a few sequels that are better than the first movie. Sadly I can't think of a good sequel to a truly awful movie.
Aliens, Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan, Empire Strikes Back, Terminator 2: Judgement Day. Those are sequel that I remember being 10x better then the 1st films.

I'm sure there are more out there.

IndigoErth

01-09-2015, 04:53 PM

It should really come as no surprise that others fell for it too. You don't have to look far on the net for defenders of the movie that don't know any better to say that fans shouldn't moan as it was true to the original comics books or the '03 series because that's what they've read.
Like the comments I'd seen defending the "alien" stuff by saying it was taken out of context. I assume because someone (director?) had claimed it was. And then I finally read that script the other day (darn that thread for being locked) and - holy hell, "out of context" my butt... clear now that anyone claiming that has never actually read it.

whoever wrote that article on kidzworld knows nothing about the Turtles History. I would just ignore it.
Of the writer, true. Though the scary part is what a generation of new fans might be led to see as being the Turtle's history. I hope any of them that remain fans as adults are then interested enough to do their homework. (But we live in an increasingly lazy world and that would take effort...)

Redeemer

01-09-2015, 04:58 PM

Ha! I was trying to copy/paste the whole article, which it turned out was too many characters for one post, and in the meantime Redeemer did it all anyway.

Lol same here. I tried to copy and paste the whole thing and use spoilers and of course it didn't play nice :P

And trust me it took me forever. If you noticed someone posted in between my post, trust me it was not a quick thing :lol:

Autbot_Benz

01-09-2015, 04:58 PM

[/QUOTE=IndigoErth;1404216]Of the writer, true. Though the scary part is what a generation of new fans might be led to see as being the Turtle's history. I hope any of them that remain fans as adults are then interested enough to do their homework. (But we live in an increasingly lazy world and that would take effort...)[/QUOTE]

I joined the site just to comment and tell them the correct Origin of the turtles :P

NinjaPug

01-09-2015, 05:11 PM

Aliens, Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan, Empire Strikes Back, Terminator 2: Judgement Day. Those are sequel that I remember being 10x better then the 1st films.

I'm sure there are more out there.

Are you kidding me? Are you calling Alien, Star Wars and Terminator terrible movies?

IndigoErth

01-09-2015, 05:13 PM

Pretty much everyone involved that could believably be passed off as a fan fell over themselves to tell us in interviews what huge fans of the franchise they were however I'm not sure I believed any of them.
Agree, I really feel that while maybe some are no doubt casual fans or were at one time in their lives, really think they emphasized it beyond actual levels of fanship.

Pretty sure there was one clip of Megan Fox, for example, when she's sitting there talking about the Turtles, being the intro to some clip or whatever that was, and recall her slipping and saying Raph was leader. Now... I get that slips happen and maybe it could be a little nitpicky to some, but look...if someone was as big of a fan as is being claimed and are still at the present time, that's first grade fan knowledge right there. Just one step past getting their name or mask color wrong. If it was ME (which it wouldn't be) I'd have immediately caught myself, messed up that take and have to/want to reshoot that. Just saying.

I joined the site just to comment and tell them the correct Origin of the turtles :P
:lol: Good, you tell 'em. Someone's gotta educate today's kids.

TigerClaw

01-09-2015, 05:15 PM

Are you kidding me? Are you calling Alien, Star Wars and Terminator terrible movies?
I'm talking about movies that had better sequels, not terrible movies.

Redeemer

01-09-2015, 05:21 PM

8. Look To The 2003 Series - NO NO NO NO NO. The animation and acting is terrible, not sure what show this person was watching. To me the show is virtually unwatchable.

Haters gonna Hate!!!!!!:D

I am curious have you ever watched a full season of the season???

NinjaPug

01-09-2015, 05:30 PM

I'm talking about movies that had better sequels, not terrible movies.

Well, your response was to the following post so you made it seem like those movies you listed were awful. The movies you listed had nothing to do with his post.

There are quite a few sequels that are better than the first movie. Sadly I can't think of a good sequel to a truly awful movie.

Bry

01-09-2015, 05:42 PM

I honestly can't think of a single example. There are plenty of superior sequels, but in almost all cases the first was at least good, or had a lot of positive qualities to expand on.

It's the building metaphor - without a solid foundation, the next level will collapse. Bad movies pretty much always lead to sequels that are bad or worse.

Bloodsucker

01-09-2015, 06:00 PM

You guys are not helping me to feel positive. I made a new year revolution to be optimistic.

Maybe we can just have the benefits of doubt.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-09-2015, 11:34 PM

There are quite a few sequels that are better than the first movie. Sadly I can't think of a good sequel to a truly awful movie.

I'm sure I'll be in the minority on this, but it's my opinion, Captain America 2 is amazing compared to the origin. The first CA is absolutely terrible.

Not only is it unlikely that Platinum Dunes will let go of their heroin like addiction to the superficial aspects of the Fred Wolf show where Shredder was an almost ever-present enemy I'm not sure Bebop and Rocksteady really work without Shredder. Why would they be made into mutants if not by the Foot to get revenge and who would be in charge of the Foot? Hopefully not Eric Sacks.

Not to mention I'd like the movie to at least try and give a good Shredder and TMNT connection - to fix the mess the 2014 movie did with story of course the odds of that are slim to none.

This is all opinion based. In my opinion the origin was fine. Learning from a book after being mutated is much more credible than learning from a small bird cage while a normal rat.

Shredder had a hand in creating them, then he infiltrated their lair, almost killed Splinter, captured and tortured 3 of the Turtles, almost killing them, and then they defeated him and his plan. That to me, is plenty of reasons why they are enemies.

There really wasn't. It's implied relying on knowledge of previous versions but never shown.

This is again, your opinion. I felt the scene on the roof, the scenes of them as kids, them getting in trouble with Splinter, the entire snow scene, the elevator, and rooftop scene all exhibit entertaining brotherly interactions.

YES YES YES YES YES....well maybe.

It was a great show, popular among the fans and if they were going to base it on one animated series this is the one they should go for. They wont but they should.

They shouldn't base it off any one thing. They should take the Nolan brothers approach, really go back and read every single comic, watch every single movie, and tv show, and cherry pick around 10 moments they like that follow the narrative they are creating.

I don't think the integrity of the 2014 movie is worth preserving.

Complete overhauls in sequels never works. I think the new director will surprise everyone, he seems very creative, something Leibesman has never proven.

Unlikely to happen as despite their knowledge that no one really liked it hence their promise of a different direction they're still going to want to sell this credibly as a sequel so sadly I don't think they going to change much.

I know it's shallow but one thing I really would like is if they got rid of the loin cloths and Donatello using mother boards and crotch coverings. It just looks stupid. Then again their over abundance of crap has got to go too.

"No one really liked it" is not true. A lot of people liked it, and a lot of people hated it. One is not more right than the other...

I do hope they change their clothing as well, but only because it would be dumb that they're all wearing the same crap.

I don't have as much of a desire to see turtle crotch as you, so I don't mind them wearing clothes. :trazz:

I think easy to see action is more important. When the action really got started it was difficult to tell which turtle was which and that's even with Bay's insistence that all the turtles have to look different to help even the stupidest person to tell them apart.

I don't think we'll get more action - at least not involving the turtles. The cgi characters cost too damn much.

Wow...I don't know what to say, because It was clear as day who was who....maybe you just weren't paying attention?

I'm pretty sure the TMNT movie costs a lot less than the Transformers movies, and those have like 45 minute long battle scenes. The first movie is like a test run, now they know how it works, and it should be easier, and better the next time.

It isn't it about time it was represented?

I actually thought it was admirable that they included some attempts at the turtles being stealthy but then quickly devalued when the started tossing around cargo containers. :roll:

Not really, E&L named them ninjas as a tongue and cheek shot at what the comic book landscape was at the time. The Foot Clan are the real ninjas. THAT'S who I hope they really overhaul in the sequel. I really think they need to use the fact the turtles are bullet proof to amp up the foot clan so they use more hand to hand combat, instead of guns.

Sadly I don't see a movie involving Rocksteady and Bebop having much of that. That wouldn't be too bad if we'd gotten some actual ninja stuff in this movie.:-?

Certainly not, but it's never been a major plot point with the Turtles, so not really something that's missing. I do wish we got more in the shadows save the day type stuff.

That's not an option really, is it?

I don't know why people expect the focus of the sequel will change to the titular characters when they just flat out can't afford that. People go one about the supposed draw backs of the the rubber suits but that's a huge one with the motion capture.

I think the original rubber suits in '90 are amazing. The only thing that takes you out of the movie is their lips. I've said this before, I wish they would have made rubber suits, and created half of a head, with the face removed and mocapped the actor's faces that way, and only had their facial expressions as cgi.

Yes but Batman Begins nailed the origin. The TMNT 2014 movie badly botched it.

Not really, they just gave you one that you don't like.

I'm on the fence about this because I'd love for them to somehow fix the origin but I can't say I trust them to do it a good way. Even if the sequel is great it's still going to be an elephant in the room that the turtles learned ninjitsu from a book and have no connection to the guy they're fighting,

Again, to me, the origin is over with, it's the last thing I think about when I watch the movie. This is why they need to go with no Shredder. In The Dark Knight, the Joker has no attachments to Batman other than he just wants to battle with him because it's fun. That's what this sequel needs. A psychopath who just wants to watch the city burn.

Pretty much everyone involved that could believably be passed off as a fan fell over themselves to tell us in interviews what huge fans of the franchise they were however I'm not sure I believed any of them.

I understand that researching something called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles may seem a ridiculous act but not only did they sign on for it so it's implied in their job description but if they were fans surely they wouldn't mind delving into it but all we got was them looking at still pictures.

I also think Leibesman tone at comic con kinda betrayed that he wasn't that interested - to be fair to him I think at that point he's given up trying to justify all the changes to a reluctant audience and just felt like shrugging his shoulders at the whole thing.

They had like 4 minutes at comic con, and there had been a ton of news about Bay wanting re-shoots, and they had released the first trailer and it got bad reviews right off the bat, that first trailer was horrible. They probably did not want to spend too much time there in case they made the bad press even worse.

Haters gonna Hate!!!!!!:D

I am curious have you ever watched a full season of the season???

No, unlike people w/ the 2014 movie, I just don't care for 2k3, and I have no interest in watching it, or talking about it. I've tried to watch episodes here and there, but I prefer the Nick toon over all TMNT tv shows. The computer animation allows them to have a ton of good action scenes that actually look cool. And the acting is BEYOND good.

pennydreadful

01-10-2015, 02:34 AM

This is all opinion based. In my opinion the origin was fine. Learning from a book after being mutated is much more credible than learning from a small bird cage while a normal rat.

IMHO, I would've thought that it would be more sensible to learn correct martial arts forms by watching a trained martial artist in front of you every day, rather than reading a book. A book can't really convey the flow, the energy, the disciplines and force behind specific strikes.

Not to mention adding potentially lethal weapons into the mix. If someone walked up to me and said "I'm a trained martial artist who knows how to use katana - I learned it all by studying from a book instead of studying under a master with years of experience", I'd think they were a dangerous idiot.

To me, Splinter is supposed to be a ninja master. And you don't become a master just by reading a book and practicing some moves on your own for a few years before you start teaching others. In the 90s film, Splinter considered Yoshi to be his master - and as such, he learned by watching him. And Yoshi in turn, had learned from his master, to the extent that he was considered one of Japan's finest shadow warriors. If you've learned from one of Japan's finest shadow warriors, then yeah, I'm down with you referring to yourself as a master. If you're someone with a book who is self-taught and has not had a trained instructor... not so much.

Again, this is all opinion, not fact, but just how I feel on the matter.

This:
http://i.imgur.com/avn4i2e.jpg?1

is not the same as this:

war9JjwFVhc

Also, re the above video, may I just say... gawDAMN! :o

I know we're discussing the movie-verse here, but doesn't Timothy from the 2k12 series sort of prove that the idea of a self-taught martial artist is generally perceived as a silly one?

neatoman

01-10-2015, 03:12 AM

10. No Shredder
9. Brotherly Love
8. Look To The 2003 Series
7. Improved Designs
6. Visible Action
5. Don’t Forget They’re Ninjas
4. Bring Back Casey Jones
3. April Is Not The Star
2. No More Origin
1. Find A Team That Actually Likes The Turtles

I do like all of these but I think it's still overthinking the basics of how not to make a movie suck. Just make sure the movie has good cinematography, good editing and compelling story/characters and it won't suck.

IndigoErth

01-10-2015, 03:18 AM

I still just wish they'd simply have gone the "Yoshi turns into Splinter" route. Would have made it a lot easier on their part in terms of trying to make various elements make sense if you simply have this guy mutate and bring with him the ninjutsu, the ability to understand, read, and write two languages and the concept of living a relatively human lifestyle.

I do hope they change their clothing as well, but only because it would be dumb that they're all wearing the same crap.

I don't have as much of a desire to see turtle crotch as you, so I don't mind them wearing clothes. :trazz:
LOL Somehow I feel that after seeing this set semi-clothed they might seem a bit too awkwardly naked if they stripped it all off of them. :lol: Even if we're used to the Turtles normally not wearing much. (Though I've always kinda liked 'em wearing stuff sometimes, even if I'd have to agree that Donnie and Mikey are a bit busy in that regard.)

Would be willing to bet they do make a "costume change." If for little other reason than toy sales. Gotta sell that new second movie set of figures. Will be surprised if they don't change it. (But keep Leo's NYC button on his strap please. ;))

Candy Kappa

01-10-2015, 03:21 AM

What Penny said, all of it.

Splinter and how he learned martial arts is complete garbage in my opinion. He is a terrible teacher that uses a picture-by-picture book as the foundation of his teachings and techniques. And he almost killed the Turtles when doing iai so close to them they had to duck away from the sword, that is absolutely disgusting and disrespectful against a weapon that is basically an razor blade longer then your arm.

"The rat, did not teach you well." Truer words where not spoken in this movie as Raph was annihilated when he tried to go against Shredder.

neatoman

01-10-2015, 07:36 AM

8. Look To The 2003 Series - NO NO NO NO NO. The animation and acting is terrible, not sure what show this person was watching. To me the show is virtually unwatchable.

What about the Fred Wolf cartoon? Shouldn't you hate that for the same reasons?

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 10:49 AM

neatoman

01-10-2015, 11:07 AM

Some people argue because they believe in their argument, while others argue to win.

I wonder if they had made an adaptation of Mirage #1, if the folks who love Bayturtles would have had a problem with it.

I still don't get why they had to change the origin at all. It didn't help the story in any way.

Well the orginal origin was basically just a riff on Daredevil and there was a story reason for having the new origin, there needed to be a reason why the villains had this mutagen fifteen years ago yet wouldn't use it until now.

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 11:17 AM

Well the orginal origin was basically just a riff on Daredevil and there was a story reason for having the new origin, there needed to be a reason why the villains had this mutagen fifteen years ago yet wouldn't use it until now.

Anyone else care to explain what's wrong with this post? I don't have the energy today.

Panda_Kahn_fan

01-10-2015, 11:27 AM

I disagree the origin needs to be retold. This story has been retold for a modern audience many different times, in many different mediums.

And yes, I do thik the 'book' thing was totally stupid, but do you know what origin I equally hate just as much?

The mirage one.

I have never, ever, ever been able to swallow an unintelligent rat mimicking Yoshi's moves from a cage, even as a kid watching it in the first movie I thought it was idiotic. And the daredevil rip-off origin with the truck carrying the toxic waste is equally stupid! And don't tell that origin at least isn't a parody/homage, the kid who becomes another certain superhero is right there in Mirage 1#, the TCRI canister bouncing off of his face after he saves the blind man!

Do you know what my favorite origins are?

Nick and IDW.

In both cases it was still an accident, but it stands on it's own, and in both it is very feasible in how Splinter knows martial arts. My point is the current generation already knows the TMNT origin from many sources, and it does not need to be regurgitated yet again. Let's have a new story!

Gunstar_Red

01-10-2015, 11:35 AM

I read this list a couple of days ago and I agree 100% with it. (Especially numbers 9, 8, 2, and 1.) Ditto on having the Rat King as the main villain for the next movie. I just wanted to add, for the love of pizza, change the voice actors in the next movie! >_<

I remember someone mentioning that they shouldn't make a sequel, but another reboot. Although I wished they done it the right way the first time, I wouldn't want a reboot. I'm tired of origin stories. Fans already know it and newbies don't need to know it. Newbies just need to get hooked and if they are interested, they can look to the other medias for it. That's a good way of adding extra profit: selling supplemental comics, books, etc related to the movie. ::hint, hint::

I'm just hoping they give more care to the story in the next movie.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-10-2015, 01:30 PM

IMHO, I would've thought that it would be more sensible to learn correct martial arts forms by watching a trained martial artist in front of you every day, rather than reading a book. A book can't really convey the flow, the energy, the disciplines and force behind specific strikes.

Not to mention adding potentially lethal weapons into the mix. If someone walked up to me and said "I'm a trained martial artist who knows how to use katana - I learned it all by studying from a book instead of studying under a master with years of experience", I'd think they were a dangerous idiot.

To me, Splinter is supposed to be a ninja master. And you don't become a master just by reading a book and practicing some moves on your own for a few years before you start teaching others. In the 90s film, Splinter considered Yoshi to be his master - and as such, he learned by watching him. And Yoshi in turn, had learned from his master, to the extent that he was considered one of Japan's finest shadow warriors. If you've learned from one of Japan's finest shadow warriors, then yeah, I'm down with you referring to yourself as a master. If you're someone with a book who is self-taught and has not had a trained instructor... not so much.

Again, this is all opinion, not fact, but just how I feel on the matter.

This:
http://i.imgur.com/avn4i2e.jpg?1

is not the same as this:

war9JjwFVhc

Also, re the above video, may I just say... gawDAMN! :o

I know we're discussing the movie-verse here, but doesn't Timothy from the 2k12 series sort of prove that the idea of a self-taught martial artist is generally perceived as a silly one?

So you're telling me, if i watched that girl perform that every day for a few years, I would be able to do that just as good as her? Now, I'm not saying that Splinter reading a book is a good way to learn martial arts, but it's more plausible than watching someone do it, and becoming a master.

Not to mention Splinter is just a rat in the cage. He has no enhancements or mutations. He's just a rat. At least in Ninja Turtles he's mutated, and actually the movie only suggests he was inspired by the book. You could call it lazy screen writing or whatever, but it's not crazy to think he found many ways to learn and teach.

I really think the Fred Wolf origin is the best one, Yoshi is living in the sewers because of his past w/ Saki, and the accident happens, he turns into a humanoid rat, and the turtles are humanoid turtles. This lends credibility to Splinter having the martial arts knowledge and abilities. It also sets up a past with Shredder and Splinter.

The Nick origin is good too, and that series has an incredibly long story line with Saki and Yoshi which is very good, and fulfilling enough to not need it be a constant thread in the movies.

The whole past life stuff from the IDW series is dumb, and although I love the 1990 movie, the Splinter stuff is dumb.

neatoman

01-10-2015, 03:33 PM

Anyone else care to explain what's wrong with this post? I don't have the energy today.

I was just pointing out that they thought they had a good reason to change it...

Bry

01-10-2015, 03:45 PM

The Boston Ninja Turtle

01-10-2015, 04:06 PM

going with Bry on this one...there are tons of People who learn by watching

Me being one of them...i could read 100 books how to do something, and untill i physically see it done my mind cant make it work..whether its phsycially doing something, a prop or craft or whatever

made school kinda tough

Candy Kappa

01-10-2015, 04:09 PM

"Monkey see, monkey do"

There was far better ways to change up or improve the Rat Origin then having Splinter finding a Ninjutsu 4 Dummies book.

Panda_Kahn_fan

01-10-2015, 04:33 PM

Sorry, but to me a normal rat learning ninjitsu that way= just as dumb as learning from a book.

Do ANYTHING to make it more believable! Have Hamato Yoshi mutate into Splinter, have Hamato Yoshi be Splinter's past life, have Yoshi's memories pass to splinter somehow via the mutagen, ANYTHING! Just don't try to sell me he learned from a book, and don't try to sell me he became a martial arts master by mimicking his owner's moves from a cage as a rat of normal intelligence.

Candy Kappa

01-10-2015, 04:41 PM

I think there are ways to explain how the mutagen imprints muscle memory or knowledge from observance or influence before being mutated.

Some earlier storyboards played with memory imprint as Splinter was wired up while observing martial arts.

It's a way to explain how Splinter not only knows martial arts, but is also fluent in Japanese and English. It could have been tied into the "super-solider" angle they seemed to be working on.

pennydreadful

01-10-2015, 05:04 PM

So you're telling me, if i watched that girl perform that every day for a few years, I would be able to do that just as good as her? Now, I'm not saying that Splinter reading a book is a good way to learn martial arts, but it's more plausible than watching someone do it, and becoming a master.

I think you're misunderstanding what I was trying to convey by including that video.

That girl has clearly been trained by a master - thus proving my point. She could not get to that skill level by reading a book. Either concept requires a certain suspension of disbelief to start with, but one is slightly less difficult to swallow than the other.

Watching and mirroring the movements of a proper martial artist is also going to give you a better idea of how something should look, rather than just looking at a static picture. And while I doubt that you could equal her performance, I believe that you could emulate a number of her moves after having watched her for several years and breaking down the movements into small chunks and practicing them.

Another good example would be learning how to dance. Most people would learn how to do the foxtrot or the tango better by watching another dancer and copying them, than looking at a diagram.

Also, not for nothin, but it's obvious that the only reason Splinter learned martial arts from a book in this movie was because they cut Yoshi out entirely and had to come up with a substitute. It's not like they sat down and talked it over and decided that it was a better idea based on its own merits - it was a handwave that they shoehorned in after deciding that explaining Yoshi & Saki's backstory was somehow too darn hard.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-10-2015, 05:28 PM

How is it more plausible? At least that way he'd have a live, physical demonstration to absorb and analyze instead of words and drawings. I'm not saying either way is "realistic", but wouldn't watching someone do something -- observational learning -- be better way to learn than looking at pictures and written instructions?

It's more plausible in the fact that a normal pet rat cannot learn how to be a ninja, but a mutated enhanced humanoid rat involves suspension of disbelief and is more likely to be able to learn from a book.

going with Bry on this one...there are tons of People who learn by watching

Me being one of them...i could read 100 books how to do something, and untill i physically see it done my mind cant make it work..whether its phsycially doing something, a prop or craft or whatever

made school kinda tough

Maybe this is where the disconnect is. A lot of people can learn from reading instructions better than watching. So maybe that is why there is a divide. I personally feel like I can learn anything as long as their are instructions. I have a difficult time paying attention to someone showing me things, and would much rather follow written directions.

Sorry, but to me a normal rat learning ninjitsu that way= just as dumb as learning from a book.

Do ANYTHING to make it more believable! Have Hamato Yoshi mutate into Splinter, have Hamato Yoshi be Splinter's past life, have Yoshi's memories pass to splinter somehow via the mutagen, ANYTHING! Just don't try to sell me he learned from a book, and don't try to sell me he became a martial arts master by mimicking his owner's moves from a cage as a rat of normal intelligence.

You are so right. I personally don't like the whole reincarnation thing, but they should have had Yoshi be human and maybe even had HIM be the one who saved the turtles and Splinter, then merge him with Splinter. I still think they can fix it all because of the line "I don't remember my life before the lab" and have him start remembering things because of the new dose of mutagen used to save him at the end.

*Side note where did they get that mutagen from? I think I saw Sacks fill up 2 canisters, but April only has one. Did Vern take the other?

I think there are ways to explain how the mutagen imprints muscle memory or knowledge from observance or influence before being mutated.

Some earlier storyboards played with memory imprint as Splinter was wired up while observing martial arts.

It's a way to explain how Splinter not only knows martial arts, but is also fluent in Japanese and English. It could have been tied into the "super-solider" angle they seemed to be working on.

This is one of the problems I had with the movie. It seems Splinter knows Japanese and Italian...how....how does he know that? See above, they left it open to explore in the sequel.

I think you're misunderstanding what I was trying to convey by including that video.

That girl has clearly been trained by a master - thus proving my point. She could not get to that skill level by reading a book. Either concept requires a certain suspension of disbelief to start with, but one is slightly less difficult to swallow than the other.

Watching and mirroring the movements of a proper martial artist is also going to give you a better idea of how something should look, rather than just looking at a static picture. And while I doubt that you could equal her performance, I believe that you could emulate a number of her moves after having watched her for several years and breaking down the movements into small chunks and practicing them.

Another good example would be learning how to dance. Most people would learn how to do the foxtrot or the tango better by watching another dancer and copying them, than looking at a diagram.

I couldn't learn what that girl did either way. The only way Splinter would be a master is if:
1. He was human and was trained by a sensei
2. Was trained by a sensei after he became mutated.

There is no way by just watching Yoshi do his kata (basically a dance) he would learn the psychology of the martial art. I think it's safe to say the best way to have Splinter's mastery of Martial Arts explained is to have him be Hamato Yoshi first.

Also, my father was a black belt in Karate, and Judo, and he used to make me go to his dojo as a kid, I sat there and watched and watched for HOURS for years...never learned a thing.

Powder

01-10-2015, 05:46 PM

Also, not for nothin, but it's obvious that the only reason Splinter learned martial arts from a book in this movie was because they cut Yoshi out entirely and had to come up with a substitute. It's not like they sat down and talked it over and decided that it was a better idea based on its own merits - it was a handwave that they shoehorned in after deciding that explaining Yoshi & Saki's backstory was somehow too darn hard.

What boggles my mind is that they went so far as to even storyboard a different origin, in which Splinter has the techniques implanted into his mind while he was a lab rat, which while kinda ridiculous, is a hell of a lot easier to swallow. Yet they opted to give him a Solson's martial arts guide. :tlol: I can only assume that was changed due to how expensive the CGI got. I hope that's why, anyway, because if a team of people thought a handbook made more sense, then I weep for the future of mankind. :trazz:

LeoRaph

01-10-2015, 05:53 PM

I've always believed the watching and mimicking from a cage isn't that far fetched considering all the other fantastical things that happen in TMNT. I'm sure given that Yoshi was a ninja master and Splinter had seen him train and grow over many years, day after day, hour after hour, minute after minute ...you get the idea, the little things would have also rubbed off unconsciously as well. So the mutagen could not only have increased his intelligence but also unlocked the little things from his memories which increases his abilities more so than what the average person could take in while watching and copying something. Kinda like the movie 'Limitless'. Anyway, that's how I've always taken the mimicking origin.

With the book origin which is just plain dumb and lazy but yeah look who's at the helm, it completely gets rid of a NINJA MASTER to learn from which makes it much less plausible than a rat mimicking a 'ninja master'. A book simply cannot replace that minute by minute in depth unconscious as well as conscious learning over several years. Besides, there is a reason that martial arts isn't taught from a book only, it needs to be practiced and it needs to be physically seen usually under the guidance of a master.

People can gripe all they want about Splinter learning ninjitsu from a cage but that IS the 'Original Origin' and at the end of the day we are talking about a mutagen which requires suspension of belief regardless and.... well learning from a book ONLY is just too far fetched when compared to the other.

TigerClaw

01-10-2015, 05:59 PM

As for learning from the book, You could argue that he has photographic reflexes, Which is how Splinter learned in the original origin, By watching someone performing the moves and he just copied them.

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 06:48 PM

That implies he was actually CAPABLE of mimicking those moves as a NORMAL rat. He wasn't. A normal rat, no matter how "smart" for its species, is not PHYSICALLY capable of mimicking the complex moves of a human performing martial arts moves. For starters, their bodies are not even built the same way, and are bent in the wrong direction in all the wrong places! IE, his back legs are backward from a human's, which would lead to some very awkward balancing issues all on its own, among other problems. So even if he could REMEMBER those moves (doubtful at best) he couldn't do them himself. At least not until after he was mutated.

Then we have the little matter of the TIME required to learn. A (non-mutated) rat lives about five-seven years MAX. He'd have literally had to been watching Yoshi from the day he was born (rats mature after only about two months) and even then, by the time he was considered a "Master", he'd have been long dead! If we're to believe he was watching his Master for YEARS, than by the time he was mutated, he was already incredibly ancient for a rat. Probably no longer physically in any shape to be doing martial arts even AFTER being mutated. THAT is just ridiculous. It stretches plausibility beyond all possibility of belief.

However, there ARE instruction manuals for many martial arts out there- Bruce Lee himself even wrote one, which I have and have used a few times. It takes a GREAT deal of patience to learn from one, but it CAN be done. Not simply from pictures alone, of course, but with careful study of the diagrams, pictures, and the descriptions, it's less difficult to accept than "a rat learns a complex skill by watching a human do something the rat is not physically capable of doing".

Ideally, we should be getting the Splinter AS Yoshi origin- whether OT, Nick, or IDW's version, take your pick. I personally like OT's best. Mirage/2K3 and the 90 movie versions of Splinter's origin are just- silly.

Galactus

01-10-2015, 07:12 PM

I'm sure I'll be in the minority on this, but it's my opinion, Captain America 2 is amazing compared to the origin. The first CA is absolutely terrible.

You're not in a minority for thinking that the Captain America: Winter Soldier is a superior movie as I'm pretty sire a lot of people rank that film pretty high however I do think you're in a minority for think The First Avenger is terrible. What's so bad about it?

This is all opinion based. In my opinion the origin was fine. Learning from a book after being mutated is much more credible than learning from a small bird cage while a normal rat.

I've never had too much of a problem with the original Mirage origin. It's always been my personal head canon that Splinter never really did learn as a normal rat. It was the exposure to the ooze that awakened all the memories of watching Yoshi train. As soon as he gained sentience he was able to understand what he'd seen including Yoshi's murder.

Now that's just me but it's really that far off what Eastman and Laird must have kicking around in the back of the their heads because Laird himself posited the exact same scenario when giving two explanations to how he thought to rationally explain the origin.

It's always going to be a conceit same with the idea that Splinter and the turtles picking up language but there are ways to make it sound somewhat plausible. The origin they went for has few ways they could possibly redeem it - not only is it (relatively speaking) more stupid and as people have pointed out it robs them of their motivation to battle the Foot. If nothing else that's what they needed to keep.

Shredder had a hand in creating them, then he infiltrated their lair, almost killed Splinter, captured and tortured 3 of the Turtles, almost killing them, and then they defeated him and his plan. That to me, is plenty of reasons why they are enemies.

I think you can appreciate that the reason that Shredder is their primary villain is because of their personal connection. Otherwise you could replace him with any kind of character, an alien, a military commander, an evil industrialist....oh wait. Simply being mad at each other for disrupting their plans seem hollow by comparison.

Not to mention that it doesn't a lick of sense. Sure Shredder wants the turtles and Splinter for the mutagen in their blood but why on Earth where the turtles actively hunting the Foot? How did Splinter know so much about Shredder?

The film makers tried to play their conflict and confrontations with the same kind of drama that other versions have yet it doesn't make any sense. Taken with the origin they have there's no reason for these characters to behave the way the way they do except others versions did it.

This is again, your opinion. I felt the scene on the roof, the scenes of them as kids, them getting in trouble with Splinter, the entire snow scene, the elevator, and rooftop scene all exhibit entertaining brotherly interactions.

Mildly entertaining and pretty hollow when you had no real dramatic to back it up.

They shouldn't base it off any one thing. They should take the Nolan brothers approach, really go back and read every single comic, watch every single movie, and tv show, and cherry pick around 10 moments they like that follow the narrative they are creating.

The Nolan brothers did that?

Batman Begins drew heavily from The Man Who Falls, Year One, The Long Halloween and the sequels drew from the similar comic stories in looser ways. I can't think of any non-comic version of Batman they drew from.

Not that using elements pulled from multiple sources is a bad idea but since the sum total of their research is looking at still images do we really trust them to portray these elements correctly or pick the best ones.

For example they gave us Oroku Saki who kinda looks like the version from the Nick show and wears armor that kinda looks like what he wore in the '03 series yet they missed the whole point of why anyone wanted Saki in the movie in the first place.

Likewise the pulled from other versions like The Next Mutation...but no one ever wanted to see the Next Mutation. It's not enough to just look they have to understand.

Complete overhauls in sequels never works. I think the new director will surprise everyone, he seems very creative, something Leibesman has never proven.

What are we basing this on? Earth to Echo?

Of course he could be genuinely creative in his non mainstream work. Same with Evan Daugherty who if you looked at some of his non Hollywood work seemed to be just the right writer for TMNT but then you look at what he does under a major production company with a bunch of cooks with their own ideas and all of a sudden he's not. I highly doubt with one major movie under belt he'd be given much control.

Also a complete wouldn't really be a sequel but certainly I think the general audience would be open to major changes which I speaks to my next point.

"No one really liked it" is not true. A lot of people liked it, and a lot of people hated it. One is not more right than the other...

Obviously I'm generalizing but I don't think by much. The emphasis should be on whether people really liked it.

By that I mean many of the people who enjoyed have openly stated or in some cases only reason they did so was seeing TMNT back in live action in the big screen. That kind of implies that if you took TMNT characters out and replaced them with...oh I dunno Battletoads characters they wouldn't enjoy the movie. So they haven't really liked the movie but continued liking TMNT.

I do hope they change their clothing as well, but only because it would be dumb that they're all wearing the same crap.

I don't have as much of a desire to see turtle crotch as you, so I don't mind them wearing clothes. :trazz:

In the long list of dumb things them permanently wearing the same clothes is pretty low on the list.

Not sure where you get that removing their various loin cloths would expose their crotches. Their plastron covers that area or it should but does seem like the way they designed it didn't leave much room for that and the various covering was to cover that flaw.

If they must I'd prefer pants ala Michelangelo. Certainly using motherboards as clothing seem to push credibility. As if the thick glasses, proton pack, super strong magic pogo stick weren't enough we have to imply Don is such a nerd he can't cloth himself in anything but technology.

Wow...I don't know what to say, because It was clear as day who was who....maybe you just weren't paying attention?

Well I was paying enough attention to see that when April fainted and Mikey had one more line the actual screen froze or after Raph was flexing the bullets out of his body the frames skipped. Likewise sometimes the action was hard to easily digest.

I'm pretty sure the TMNT movie costs a lot less than the Transformers movies, and those have like 45 minute long battle scenes. The first movie is like a test run, now they know how it works, and it should be easier, and better the next time.

It not only costs less but makes much less money.

The motion capture is the most expensive thing and we're going to have two extra motion capped characters as well as say a decent name to potentially play Casey Jones so that's a potentially big budget increase for a movie which in all likelihood make around the same money.

Isn't the main thing that Dave Green is known for is working on a low budget? Seems convenient for a movie in this position.

Not really, E&L named them ninjas as a tongue and cheek shot at what the comic book landscape was at the time. The Foot Clan are the real ninjas. THAT'S who I hope they really overhaul in the sequel. I really think they need to use the fact the turtles are bullet proof to amp up the foot clan so they use more hand to hand combat, instead of guns.

The turtles are also super strong. There's no way in hell any Foot soldier could stand a chance in hand to hand combat with the Bay turtles.

Certainly not, but it's never been a major plot point with the Turtles, so not really something that's missing. I do wish we got more in the shadows save the day type stuff.

I'd say it was a major point in the comics and even the animated series occasionally had them acting that way. Heck look at the intro all shadowy and visuals reminiscent of the comics. We also saw a fair of actual martial in the previous movies.

Not that this always to be a focus but it really should have a major point in a movie involving their origin and connection with Shredder.

Not really, they just gave you one that you don't like.

Well Batman Begins didn't have anyone coming out if it saying it's the worst Batman movie or worst comic book ever made. TMNT had lots of that so I'd say that quite a lot of people thought it was botched.

Again, to me, the origin is over with, it's the last thing I think about when I watch the movie. This is why they need to go with no Shredder. In The Dark Knight, the Joker has no attachments to Batman other than he just wants to battle with him because it's fun. That's what this sequel needs. A psychopath who just wants to watch the city burn.

Dare I say that might have been a better (if not a compelling) motivation for Shredder in the first movie. He just wants to kill people none of this tricking the government crap with a cure crap.

Also Empire Strikes Back managed to come up with an aspect to the origin after the movie. I'd prefer something a bit more than that but it shows it can be done.

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 07:50 PM

I have never, ever, ever been able to swallow an unintelligent rat mimicking Yoshi's moves from a cage, even as a kid watching it in the first movie I thought it was idiotic. And the daredevil rip-off origin with the truck carrying the toxic waste is equally stupid! And don't tell that origin at least isn't a parody/homage, the kid who becomes another certain superhero is right there in Mirage 1#, the TCRI canister bouncing off of his face after he saves the blind man!

I'm beginning to think you don't actually get TMNT. This argument is ridiculous.

That is EXACTLY what they were doing. IT WAS A PARODY!!!!!!

Wow. If you're not in on that joke, I wonder what other aspects of TMNT are lost on you.

Have you stopped to consider that, of all animals, selecting a turtle to be a ninja is in itself, a joke?

Sometimes I can't quite figure out what you all are actual fans of. I'm not saying you're not real fans - nothing of the sort, i'm simply pointing out that maybe some of you are a little to literal in your interpretations.

as a side note, and i just know i'll get lambasted for this, it's been proven in some studies that Rats are actually smarter than humans, when it comes to repetitive tasks and strategies. ergo, perhaps a rat would learn martial arts at an increased rate, or in a different way than a human.
could a rat actually physically mimic the moves? Not likely, but could it remember them? Quite possibly.

From a website on the mater:
Rat vs. Pigeon: Rats are more intelligent. But they both outdo humans in some cases: In an experiment designed to test why humans make investment mistakes, researchers proved that rats and pigeons are able to learn an optimal strategy and stick to it—while humans tend to second-guess themselves and show misguided confidence. Rats, however, can go one step further than their feathered friends. In another study where rats where given a choice to opt out of a test if they didn’t know the answer, they did so, “which suggests that rats, like monkeys, but unlike pigeons, may be aware of what they do,” according to the researcher.

Bry

01-10-2015, 07:56 PM

I've never had too much of a problem with the original Mirage origin. It's always been my personal head canon that Splinter never really did learn as a normal rat. It was the exposure to the ooze that awakened all the memories of watching Yoshi train. As soon as he gained sentience he was able to understand what he'd seen including Yoshi's murder.

This. Right here. Literally all you need to do.

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 08:07 PM

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 09:01 PM

as a side note, and i just know i'll get lambasted for this, it's been proven in some studies that Rats are actually smarter than humans, when it comes to repetitive tasks and strategies. ergo, perhaps a rat would learn martial arts at an increased rate, or in a different way than a human.
could a rat actually physically mimic the moves? Not likely, but could it remember them? Quite possibly.

From a website on the mater:
Rat vs. Pigeon: Rats are more intelligent. But they both outdo humans in some cases: In an experiment designed to test why humans make investment mistakes, researchers proved that rats and pigeons are able to learn an optimal strategy and stick to it—while humans tend to second-guess themselves and show misguided confidence. Rats, however, can go one step further than their feathered friends. In another study where rats where given a choice to opt out of a test if they didn’t know the answer, they did so, “which suggests that rats, like monkeys, but unlike pigeons, may be aware of what they do,” according to the researcher.

I believe the key word there is "repetitive". Yes, rats are good at doing tasks that are simple and based on reward or lack thereof, but when it comes to complex abstract thinking? They're still just animals. A rat would lack even the motivation to LEARN such a skill, as it serves no purpose to the rat, and has no bearing on its immediate survival or any other basic need. And while a rat may be able to learn an "optimal strategy" for completing a maze or obtaining a treat from various tests, the ability to second guess in itself is what sets humans apart. A rat will simply do as instinct and its senses tell it to, whereas a human can consider consequences of a wrong choice and can then decide accordingly. A rat would just as often make the WRONG choice and end up dead due to lack of foresight. (This is why the old cliché about rats abandoning a sinking ship is ironic- they will still most likely drown because even if they don't go down with the ship, they can't swim well enough to survive long!)

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 09:14 PM

I believe the key word there is "repetitive". Yes, rats are good at doing tasks that are simple and based on reward or lack thereof, but when it comes to complex abstract thinking? They're still just animals. A rat would lack even the motivation to LEARN such a skill, as it serves no purpose to the rat, and has no bearing on its immediate survival or any other basic need. And while a rat may be able to learn an "optimal strategy" for completing a maze or obtaining a treat from various tests, the ability to second guess in itself is what sets humans apart. A rat will simply do as instinct and its senses tell it to, whereas a human can consider consequences of a wrong choice and can then decide accordingly. A rat would just as often make the WRONG choice and end up dead due to lack of foresight. (This is why the old cliché about rats abandoning a sinking ship is ironic- they will still most likely drown because even if they don't go down with the ship, they can't swim well enough to survive long!)

Martial arts are not exactly abstract though, wouldn't you agree? The majority of moves are repetitive motions, and people are trained through route practice. In the end, though as a rat he may not have the full awareness of a human, once mutated, he would. Also, as a rat, the only thing he would have possibly learned are the stances and kata's or whatever. He did not need to apply them in a fight.

Also, you might consider that attaining zen is, in part, to try and live in the moment, without foresight or hindsight, and to just be. Perhaps this is why, as a rat, he might be better suited to learning these skills, than say, a human, who is full of doubt, and always second guessing themselves.

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 09:28 PM

Yep, that I would be fine with as well, though the daredevil homage should remain. It's the story. They should just tell the damned story.
I don't think it needs to be told in every incarnation, BUT it shouldn't be re-written either.

I don't want to watch a Batman who shot his own parents. I don't want Superman to get his powers from the moon. I don't want Spider-man spinning webs from his butt.

Why this is difficult for some folks, I'll never know.

EDIT: "You know what's way more realistic than a rat learning ninjutsu from its master and then MUTATING INTO A HUMANOID RAT? A lab rat that learns Ninjutsu from a book. That's way more realistic and believable. Totes."

The Boston Ninja Turtle

01-10-2015, 09:30 PM

I'm beginning to think you don't actually get TMNT. This argument is ridiculous.

That is EXACTLY what they were doing. IT WAS A PARODY!!!!!!

Wow. If you're not in on that joke, I wonder what other aspects of TMNT are lost on you.

this makes me wonder too

i also wonder if some people actually read or heard the stories of how TMNT where created...sure a doodle war..but what actually lead to it

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 09:43 PM

Actually, there IS a lot of abstract thinking involved. Just the reasoning of wanting to learn in the first place, or to put it another way, WHY would he want/need to learn it? He has NO reason to "study" (because that's what he would have to actively be doing, NOT just watching) something so far outside his own personal, immediate sphere of experience and survival skills, because as an animal, it literally has nothing to do with him. There is also the spiritual aspect which most certainly is abstract. Animals do not understand the concept of a soul, and cannot comprehend, let alone LEARN the mind-set of spiritual "enlightenment", patience, stillness, and inner peace that "zen" entails. They simply exist without understanding how or why, and thus have no basis for self-awareness that is so essential to any martial art. And existing "in the moment" is much different from having the self-awareness of BEING in the moment. That's the distinction.

All of this is complex and abstract thought-process that animals don't have. The rat would not consider the potential for using such skills, either. And not just the katas, either, but ALL of the skills involved in ninjitsu, such as weapon use, survival/stealth techniques, various tools used, etc. There are eighteen separate disciplines involved in the art- and he's going to learn all of that from watching his Master do katas repetitively? Don't think so. What about koji-kiri? He would have no understanding of what those signs even mean, much less have reason to learn them.

The problem with that entire concept is right there in your post- the rat doesn't have the AWARENESS to have learned it. Their brain isn't evolved enough for such higher thought processes as learning a complicated skill. Because no matter how you slice it, martial arts are based on complex series of moves that while repetitive on their own, are quite difficult to follow when used in the proper context. This the reason it takes so long to learn- there are dozens of moves, and they can be combined in dozens of ways to meet any given situation. A rat MIGHT be able to memorize a FEW separate moves by seeing them over and over, but it could NOT string them together properly, nor memorize a full combat sequence done at speed.

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 09:44 PM

this makes me wonder too

i also wonder if some people actually read or heard the stories of how TMNT where created...sure a doodle war..but what actually lead to it

If only there was some sort of a system, some sort of web of information, that could be used as a tool...

Naw, that would be just crazy talk.

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 09:44 PM

Their brain isn't evolved enough for such higher thought processes as learning a complicated skill.

Like, say, maze-solving?

Jester

01-10-2015, 09:45 PM

Silly question time: Isn't martial arts essentially all about muscle memory? Isn't the point of katas and "wax on, wax off" to train your body to move with out thinking. Isn't that muscle memory primarily taught through scads of repetition of the same forms?

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 09:52 PM

Like, say, maze-solving?

Maze-solving is a far cry from being able to string together a series of fighting moves designed to be used against an opponent who can study and adapt to them. In other words, the maze doesn't change once you're in it. Each combat situation is unique and requires its own specific series of movements in order to avoid getting creamed. And thank you so much for taking that out of context- the POINT is that those moves ON THEIR OWN are repetitive. The actual USE of them is NOT.

Silly question time: Isn't martial arts essentially all about muscle memory? Isn't the point of katas and "wax on, wax off" to train your body to move with out thinking. Isn't that muscle memory primarily taught through scads of repetition of the same forms?

See above. Muscle repetition is one thing, but the ability to learn and apply it is something else entirely.

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 09:56 PM

Maze-solving is a far cry from being able to string together a series of fighting moves designed to be used against an opponent who can study and adapt to them.

Oh, now it's THAT and not just "Their brain isn't evolved enough for such higher thought processes as learning a complicated skill."

Got it.

In other words, the maze doesn't change once you're in it. Each combat situation is unique and requires its own specific series of movements in order to avoid getting creamed. And thank you so much for taking that out of context- the POINT is that those moves ON THEIR OWN are repetitive. The actual USE of them is NOT.

Yes, and once he's mutated, his brain evolves, remembers the movements, and begins to USE them and LEARN them and APPLY them.

The already mutated rat who reads a picture book and then becomes a ninja "master" is, inherently, worse.

RANDOM capitalized WORDS.

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 09:57 PM

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 10:05 PM

I think we're seeing it from very different angles. You're argument is based on the assumption that animals are not self aware. You are also assuming that said animal must consciously make a decision to want to learn.

All I'm saying is that 1. He has watched, and therefore can recall the movements. It requires no want of any kind. I'm not suggesting he is choosing to practice while a normal rat. He simply watched. 2. Once mutated he could put said memories to use. Also, as a mutant, his rat-ness might give him and advantage in achieving zen, not that as a rat he is aware of zen, or has any desire to achieve it.

Also, and my final point, why is it so many people assume animals are not self aware? Most reasearch actually points to the inverse.

Boom baby.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060711094623.htm

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 10:19 PM

Oh, now it's THAT and not just "Their brain isn't evolved enough for such higher thought processes as learning a complicated skill."

Got it.

Yes, and once he's mutated, his brain evolves, remembers the movements, and begins to USE them and LEARN them and APPLY them.

The already mutated rat who reads a picture book and then becomes a ninja "master" is, inherently, worse.

RANDOM capitalized WORDS.

It's not random, Trick, it's called EMPHASIS. I don't like using the italics or bold because I feel this get the point across just as clearly without having to add a bunch of extra fonts and crap. Thank you for being so understanding....:trolleye:

As for the distinction- do you understand how much more is involved with consciously studying a skill rather than learning a pre-determined path? Put a rat in a maze where the end has been changed, and it will still follow the old path, and become confused when it gets to the supposed end. A human, however, would simply realize it has changed and work out the new path with little difficulty. The rat would take far longer to learn the new path due to its already ingrained memory. It's confused because it can't understand how or why it changed.

Learning a martial art is even more difficult, given that each move is studied both on its own and in the context of a combat sequence- and changes each time a new opponent is faced!

I think we're seeing it from very different angles. You're argument is based on the assumption that animals are not self aware. You are also assuming that said animal must consciously make a decision to want to learn.

All I'm saying is that 1. He has watched, and therefore can recall the movements. It requires no want of any kind. I'm not suggesting he is choosing to practice while a normal rat. He simply watched. 2. Once mutated he could put said memories to use. Also, as a mutant, his rat-ness might give him and advantage in achieving zen, not that as a rat he is aware of zen, or has any desire to achieve it.

Also, and my final point, why is it so many people assume animals are not self aware? Most reasearch actually points to the inverse.

But that still presupposes he had any reason to remember it in the first place. Most animals are not going to pay enough attention to something that has no bearing on their own needs to actually retain that memory. Basically, he might watch it long enough to determine if the actions present a threat or some form of reward or other direct effect on him, but then ignore it thereafter. A rat's not going to sit and stare at something like that for hours on end any more than a cat or dog would- both would soon lose interest and find some more relevant activity to engage in. Animals aren't motivated to study humans performing what- to them- are nonsensical acts. I'm not saying the book is really much better, but at least it's POSSIBLE.

Animal self-awareness is rudimentary, at best, based on current knowledge. Some HIGHER animals (cats, dogs, pigs, primates, and cetaceans, mostly) have some vague awareness of themselves as an individual, but that's about it. The only ones who approach anything close to a human level of awareness are whales/dolphins, and apes. Now animal emotional development is a different matter- perhaps this is what you're referring to? That is still very little studies, and is a subject for much debate among behaviorists.

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 10:22 PM

Boom baby.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060711094623.htm

Excellent post.

I read a book on hockey once. I don't play in the NHL.

Ms. Marvel, you also continue to assume that you know the mind of an animal. I will assert, that none of us do, so we are all guessing, even though there is ample evidence of sentience in animals other than Sapiens. We do not fully understand other species, or why they do, what they do. We can only theorize.

In any event, removing Yoshi was stupid. Clearly, it was just more important to watch 4 Shreks beat-box in an elevator, or go for a sleigh ride down the mountain on a semi truck.

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 10:23 PM

As for the distinction- do you understand how much more is involved with consciously studying a skill rather than learning a pre-determined path? Put a rat in a maze where the end has been changed, and it will still follow the old path, and become confused when it gets to the supposed end. A human, however, would simply realize it has changed and work out the new path with little difficulty. The rat would take far longer to learn the new path due to its already ingrained memory. It's confused because it can't understand how or why it changed.

I love this so much.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060711094623.htm

It couldn't have been more perfect if I had set it up myself.

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 10:27 PM

Excellent post.

Unfortunately, all this proves is that rats remember things that directly affect THEM. This has no bearing on whether a rat would remember or understand what it saw its Master doing in a completely unrelated activity that it had no part in.

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 10:28 PM

I love this so much.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060711094623.htm

It couldn't have been more perfect if I had set it up myself.

Aaannd you just posted the same article. See above post. This is your argument? It's a straw man, at best.

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 10:30 PM

Unfortunately, all this proves is that rats remember things that directly affect THEM. This has no bearing on whether a rat would remember or understand what it saw its Master doing in a completely unrelated activity that it had no part in.

Getting out of breath chasing all these goal posts.

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 10:37 PM

You got a better explanation? I'd love to hear it! Because I'm talking about actual animal behavior, not some hypothetical "suppressed memory" that an ordinary rat MIGHT have. At least a rat with awakened intelligence and a humanoid body could read the book to learn. I STILL prefer Splinter as Yoshi (it just makes more sense) but it was what it was, and I can at least believe the movie's version COULD happen, rather than a common pet having ANY means or motivation to study a very difficult, time-consuming set of HUMAN abilities! (Because no one has even addressed the point of his body structure being all wrong in the 90 movie for those moves....:tconfuse:)

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 10:40 PM

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 10:41 PM

LeoRaph

01-10-2015, 10:44 PM

I think you'd be better of just going to Peter Laird's Blog and ask him point blank why he 'chose' Splinter to be a rat rather than a human because clearly all these responses are just too 'ridiculous' so maybe he can at least get you to see his point of view...you know being one of the 'actual' creators and the main writer behind it all.

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/ (http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/)

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 10:49 PM

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 11:00 PM

I think you'd better just go to Peter Laird's Blog and ask him point blank why he 'chose' splinter to be a rat rather than a human because clearly all these responses are just too 'ridiculous' so maybe he can at least get you to see his point of view...you know being one of the 'actual' creators and the main writer behind it all.

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com.au/ (http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com.au/)

Oh, I "get" it- I just don't agree with it. It was basically a joke from the ground up. Had it been a SERIOUS attempt at an origin story rather than a parody, I imagine they might have gone a different route. Probably something closer to the OT- or perhaps IDW's take (which I LOVE, BTW.) That one actually makes the most sense from the rat-end of the spectrum (enter rat butt jokes here) and I can swallow that version of Splinter-as-rat FAR more readily than a simple "pet was watching his master do stuff" origin. At least the past life scenario gives them a prior starting point that makes him knowing things as an animal reasonable. Yet even there, he wasn't "awakened" until the scientists started giving him the injections. (There is at least some basis in myth and theology for this version, which Mirage/ 90 movie don't have.)

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 11:02 PM

Yeah, we already know from virtually every incarnation (except maybe Mirage) that the mutagen is unpredictable and apparently works both ways. At least Yoshi already KNEW all that stuff, and simply had to adapt it to his new form. A rat remembering something his OWNER did that he literally had no part of (ie, it had no direct impact or interest for him) is far less believable, IMHO. That would be like my cat watching me type while working on my fics every day, and then it mutating to write a novel and become the next Steven King. The rat has no understanding of what it's even seeing (ie what purpose it serves) much less interest in something that doesn't involve food, mating, a threat, or any other basic concern animals have. And most animals have fairly one-track minds.... (Seriously, They are persistent as heck when it comes to getting what they want! But anything else is either a temporary distraction, or they just don't care.)

But again, you allowing mutagene to be a maguffin, and not adhering to your very strict rules of what is and is not possible. You're cherry picking the parts you agree with , and ignoring what you don't, no different than anyone else.

You're writer argument holds no water, as you're suggestion incorporates the ability to read, in English. Absolutely a bridge to far, one that the movie invokes in fact. Splinter spontaneously learns to speak and read English?

Surely both of those abilities are far more complex than mimicking body movements.

Idw's version requires some sort of spirituality, which is, in my opinion the antithesis of what TMNT is about.

All the past life stuff is mumbo jumbo nonsense, and is of severe detriment to the comics.

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 11:03 PM

"At least a rat with awakened intelligence and a humanoid body could remember the moves it saw its Master make and therefore apply them with its now advanced intelligence and humanoid body."

Well goddamn that was easy.

Again, taking things out of context. That's ASSUMING he paid any attention to those moves ORIGINALLY. No rat I've ever seen (or any other animal of comparable intelligence) would bother. They'd sit and watch for a few minutes, and then do something else. Maybe scratch an itch or scurry over to the food bowl.

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 11:05 PM

Again, taking things out of context. That's ASSUMING he paid any attention to those moves ORIGINALLY. No rat I've ever seen (or any other animal of comparable intelligence) would bother. They'd sit and watch for a few minutes, and then do something else. Maybe scratch an itch or scurry over to the food bowl.

Good thing it's a f*cking movie then.

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 11:08 PM

Good thing it's a f*cking movie then.

But, like we've read, a past life makes soooo much more sense...right?:lol:

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 11:12 PM

But, like we've read, a past life makes soooo much more sense...right?:lol:

"Let's substitute something slightly ridiculous but also charming that the original creators did with something EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS AND CLICHE AND CONVOLUTED"

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 11:14 PM

"Let's substitute something slightly ridiculous but also charming that the original creators did with something EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS AND CLICHE AND CONVOLUTED"

Careful, you're sounding dangerously close to a hollywood screenwriter!

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 11:15 PM

Careful, you're sounding dangerously close to a hollywood screenwriter!

No, THOSE guys go the opposite route.

"Just make him learn it from some karate book somebody flushed down a toilet. *line of coke off hooker's chest*"

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 11:18 PM

No, THOSE guys go the opposite route.

"Just make him learn it from some karate book somebody flushed down a toilet. *line of coke off hooker's chest*"

"OMG, what if everything is connected? What if it's all fate! SNORT I'm a genius! No ones ever done that before!"

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 11:19 PM

"OMG, what if everything is connected? What if it's all fate! SNORT I'm a genius! No ones ever done that before!

"Hey Megan you wanna be the inexplicable star of another beloved franchise again?" *hooker pops her head up* "Damn right I do!"

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 11:22 PM

"Hey Megan you wanna be the inexplicable star of another beloved franchise again?" *hooker pops her head up* "Damn right I do!"

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Megan: "Is it okay if I get pregnant first?"
Bay: "Don't worry, this party is just getting started kid."

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 11:23 PM

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Megan: "Is it okay if I get pregnant first?"
Bay: "Don't worry, this party is just getting started kid."

In between his steak and martinis of course.

Commenter 42

01-10-2015, 11:29 PM

In between his steak and martinis of course.

I wonder if there is any relation between Brian-Austin Green and Dave Green.

TrickOrTreater

01-10-2015, 11:35 PM

I wonder if there is any relation between Brian-Austin Green and Dave Green.

Green! His name is Green! Get it! They're Turtles and GREEn!

*snoooooooort*

WOOO

MsMarvelDuckie

01-10-2015, 11:45 PM

But again, you allowing mutagene to be a maguffin, and not adhering to your very strict rules of what is and is not possible. You're cherry picking the parts you agree with , and ignoring what you don't, no different than anyone else.

You're writer argument holds no water, as you're suggestion incorporates the ability to read, in English. Absolutely a bridge to far, one that the movie invokes in fact. Splinter spontaneously learns to speak and read English?

Surely both of those abilities are far more complex than mimicking body movements.

Idw's version requires some sort of spirituality, which is, in my opinion the antithesis of what TMNT is about.

All the past life stuff is mumbo jumbo nonsense, and is of severe detriment to the comics.

No, not cherry-picking, unless by that you mean taking the parts that actually make sense from a plausibility stand-point and leaving what doesn't. As for the writer example, that was precisely my point. My cat being able to not only read, but write as well, is about as likely as learning a complex SET of skills (NOT JUST BODY MOVEMENTS!) just by watching a human do it. Remember, Yoshi was a ninja MASTER- which entails far more than just knowing and performing a few basic fighting moves. It's balance, stealth, weaponry(of SEVERAL varieties) survival and infiltration skills, and even things like holding one's breath, hiding in plain sight, long-distance running, etc. And a rat is going to learn all this HOW??! Especially in a life-span of (assuming he was a pet from a VERY young age) at MOST five or six years??!! He'd have to be watching Yoshi 24-7! And in all kinds of environments and situations, which is bloody well unlikely. He's JUST a rat, after all.

And given how it's been used in the past, the mutagen might as well BE a Maguffin. The rules seem to vary from one version to another, but one thing has remained fairly constant- that it mutates a creature to take on the attributes of the last creature it was in contact with. Somehow, I missed the part where it also allows a creature to "remember" things it had no prior understanding of. Learning something AFTER mutation? Sure. But how can someone be expected to swallow the idea that the subject already "knew" something just from having seen it? THAT's the absurd part, IMHO. Then again, learning to speak seems to be a commonly gained ability for nearly every incarnation, particularly Nick. I'll give you a pass on that one, but only because it's possible (going by current research) that an animal might understand human speech- we just don't know to what extent. Hob learned it pretty fast, as did Pete in Nick. Neither seemed to have much prior exposure to it. (Although Hob was a pet, but we don't know for how long.)

I take it you're not a fan of IDW. Having been a practitioner and student of esoteric studies FOR YEARS, I can say that it's NOT mumbo-jumbo in IDW. It DOES have basis in several real-world beliefs, and given that supernatural elements have long been a part of TMNT, it fits perfectly with that aspect of their universe. Spirituality the antithesis of TMNT??!! Have we been reading/watching the same shows and comics? Mirage especially was chock FULL of spiritual elements. I don't have very many issues, but several of the ones I DO have revolve around spirit journeys and shamanic type quests. And we have Savanti Romero, who is a demon. Among other examples I probably am not aware of. The OT had the dragon egg that Shredder hatched in the second Usagi episode, along with the ghost of the Foot Clan's founder in "Blast From the Past", and another ghost in Farewell, Lotus Blossom(and Lotus as a reincarnated Japanese Empress!). Spirituality and supernatural elements have been part of the TMNT from the get-go! We've even seen evidence that Splinter is a Buddhist, and astral projection/communication, among other things. How is reincarnation any different? Actually, given the Lotus example, IDW seems right in line with earlier examples of exactly that sort of thing.

This is a subject I'm VERY familiar with, so it's hardly surprising to me they went that route. I really liked it for that very reason. A little judicious digging into reincarnation myths around the world led to some really interesting results. Such as a Zuni Indian belief that the spirits of a tribe's deceased relatives take up residence in the bodies of their tribal totem animal. Guess what one of them is? A turtle. Human spirits in the bodies of turtles- if THAT isn't IDW to a "T", I don't know what is. And it fits perfectly with Splinter's prayer from the very first volume. As we've already seen, one of the main themes in IDW is Fate and destiny, (Shredder's micro makes this clear) so it's really very much a part of that particular "incarnation".

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 12:02 AM

No, not cherry-picking, unless by that you mean taking the parts that actually make sense from a plausibility stand-point and leaving what doesn't. ...

This is a subject I'm VERY familiar with, so it's hardly surprising to me they went that route. I really liked it for that very reason.

Religion is not allowed as a topic of conversation, so I'll be brief.
Je Suis Charlie. 'Nuff said?

There is absolutely nothing at all plausible about reincarnation. And yes, cherry picking means exactly what you've done, picking only the parts that you agree with, and leaving the rest.

I don't disagree that there are supernatural elements contained in later stories, especially in TNM, one of the low points of the brand for me, if I'm being honest.

I think much of IDW is great, actually, I just tend to skip over any spiritual undertones, and try to enjoy the rest.

Also, not for nothing, but typing on an ipad is annoying. Please excuse any typos.

MsMarvelDuckie

01-11-2015, 12:35 AM

Religion is not allowed as a topic of conversation, so I'll be brief.
Je Suis Charlie. 'Nuff said?

There is absolutely nothing at all plausible about reincarnation. And yes, cherry picking means exactly what you've done, picking only the parts that you agree with, and leaving the rest.

I don't disagree that there are supernatural elements contained in later stories, especially in TNM, one of the low points of the brand for me, if I'm being honest.

I think much of IDW is great, actually, I just tend to skip over any spiritual undertones, and try to enjoy the rest.

Also, not for nothing, but typing on an ipad is annoying. Please excuse any typos.

Okay, call it cherry-picking if you want, the point was that I'm taking the parts that actually make some kind of (semi-logical) sense in terms of what would be possible for an ordinary rat. I simply have little interest in a completely unrealistic origin where a rat can/will do things that are simply not possible BEFORE being mutated. After mutation, all bets are off. Period. That's been the point of this entire discourse. Feel free to disagree, but that's just how I look at it- if a rat can't do it, why put it in there? That was the ONE thing that took me out of the original movie- everything else was fine. But watching Splinter doing karate kicks from his cage just looked ridiculous to me, and made me wonder if anyone had bothered researching animal anatomy first. Heck, I'd happily take Nick, with Tang Shen still a part of it, as long as Splinter was still a human first over being a rat. Or if he MUST be a rat, at least the reincarnation origin gives him a good reason to know this stuff!

And who said anything about discussing religion in RL? I'm talking about spirituality, mythology, and the supernatural (or esoteric, if you prefer) in the context of TMNT, where it HAS been a part of the multiverse, which was exactly what I was pointing out. It just happens to be something I know a lot about. You haven't explained why you think reincarnation is implausible, when it's clearly been part of the franchise for a very long time, and in spite of whatever personal beliefs you may have regarding the subject, that doesn't invalidate that it makes sense in the world of the TMNT. It's simply part of a very large and diverse tapestry of ideas and themes. One I find particularly interesting and thought-provoking, due to the many stories that can be told with it. This is very deep stuff, and can be dark and depressing or uplifting and hopeful, depending on how it's used.

One of the things I'd like to see in any incarnation is the turtles themselves inadvertently giving rise to some of the legends of things like kappa via time-travel, or discovering that they were NOT the first of their kind- an Utrom experiment or accident in ancient Japan might have spawned earlier mutant turtles, thus birthing said legends. Or they travel to the Arizona desert and are somehow mistaken for totem spirits in Earthly form, and learn about the Zuni beliefs- which in turn opens up questions of how/why they have souls. That would be an amazing TMNT story in ANY medium.

The Boston Ninja Turtle

01-11-2015, 12:46 AM

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 12:57 AM

Okay, call it cherry-picking if you want, the point was that I'm taking the parts that actually make some kind of (semi-logical) sense in terms of what would be possible for an ordinary rat...

But you buy into reincarnation? Dead is dead, I can't buy into something that died, suddenly becoming another living being. It's impossible to me. For me, it is possible that a rat might have memories of watching their owner perform katas or what ever. That could be possible, given that we know rats have memories, as people have memories. It's not a huge stretch to suppose the rat could retain memories. Memories are not solely based on what you find interesting. Maybe your memories are, but mine sure are not. I have all sorts of memories, pleasant, unpleasant exciting, boring, pointless facts etc.

You haven't explained why you think reincarnation is implausible, when it's clearly been part of the franchise for a very long time, and in spite of whatever personal beliefs you may have regarding the subject, that doesn't invalidate that it makes sense in the world of the TMNT. ... This is very deep stuff, and can be dark and depressing or uplifting and hopeful, depending on how it's used.

Again, I don't think there is an afterlife of any kind, including the idea of a soul, and therefore, it is absurd to me, simply put. Any fiction that uses elements of heaven, hell, etc is boring in my opinion. When I encounter it in TMNT media, I turn off. Reincarnation is an extension of belief that is actually retarded, and I'm using that word in it's proper context, it retards our understanding of life, supposing false answers in place of questions. It's detrimental to the growth of humanity, and insulting to intelligent individuals. I'd like to not discuss it though, seeing as this is a hot button issue at the best of times. I've only replied to the question, and wish to say no more so as not to really offend the theists here.

One of the things I'd like to see in any incarnation is the turtles themselves inadvertently giving rise to some of the legends of things like kappa via time-travel, or discovering that they were NOT the first of their kind- an Utrom experiment or accident in ancient Japan might have spawned earlier mutant turtles, thus birthing said legends. Or they travel to the Arizona desert and are somehow mistaken for totem spirits in Earthly form, and learn about the Zuni beliefs- which in turn opens up questions of how/why they have souls. That would be an amazing TMNT story in ANY medium.

So, you liked the blue door script? I would have never guessed.
You and I are interested in completely different subject matter.

MsMarvelDuckie

01-11-2015, 01:00 AM

Yes, but there is still such a thing as realism in context of world-building, yes? This is one of the foundations of good writing and setting a stage the audience can believe in. And I think it actually stops once they get doused with the mutagen, although I suppose it kind of depends on who's holding the bowl at the time, LOL! (Nick never DID explain why Yoshi bought the turtles, or why he thought it prudent to follow those Kraang down the alley. That was a REALLY bad idea for a guy who had his hands full with a bowl of turtles....)

I just prefer a bit more SCI in my sci-fi, FWIW. At least in terms of the "humble beginnings" of these once-ordinary animals. Once you throw in the mutagen, as I said, insert whatever zany, weird, outrageous stuff you want. But for the love of (insert deity/epithet/etc of choice here) PLEASE at least have the decency for the humble, ordinary animals they started as to be just THAT. Not some sort of unrealistic "humanized" version of said "ordinary" animal. Keep the anthropomorphizing for AFTER the mutations!!!

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 01:08 AM

Duckie...i like you ...but i gotta ask...you realize we are talking about a francise based on a comic book about 4 walking talking turtles who learn kung fu that where a parody of daredevil

the realism kinfa stops right after the turtles are bought from a pet store

though todays prices that would be at least 100 bucks down the drain

Yeah, but wouldn't it have been sweet, to have that as the opening? The whole DD rip-off as the lead in? Leaving the pet-shop, car chase, cars swerves to avoid the old man and Chet, See Chet lose the turtles down the sewer, camera follows them down the drain into black, a canister of glowing liquid smashes open above them. title credits roll.

Damn, just take my money.

Yes, but there is still such a thing as realism in context of world-building, yes? This is one of the foundations of good writing and setting a stage the audience can believe in. And I think it actually stops once they get doused with the mutagen, although I suppose it kind of depends on who's holding the bowl at the time, LOL! (Nick never DID explain why Yoshi bought the turtles, or why he thought it prudent to follow those Kraang down the alley. That was a REALLY bad idea for a guy who had his hands full with a bowl of turtles....)

I just prefer a bit more SCI in my sci-fi, FWIW. At least in terms of the "humble beginnings" of these once-ordinary animals. Once you throw in the mutagen, as I said, insert whatever zany, weird, outrageous stuff you want. But for the love of (insert deity/epithet/etc of choice here) PLEASE at least have the decency for the humble, ordinary animals they started as to be just THAT. Not some sort of unrealistic "humanized" version of said "ordinary" animal. Keep the anthropomorphizing for AFTER the mutations!!!

YES! I agree, but I'm not trying to anthropomorphize Splinter. I'm citing scientific studies, and working with the source to establish the REASON for a blood feud. Otherwise they are 4 animals that happen to mutate, but are still just animals, with zero reason to care at all that one human is initiating a crime wave in New York. They have no reason to care! Why does splinter train them? In the 1st issue, it's because he wants revenge. He wants them to kill Saki.
Otherwise? "Hey freaks, let's get crazy and learn some martial arts cause, well, I'm just zany and bored."

By Splinter having a Motive, or an Agenda, his actions have purpose. It also opens up the opportunity for the Turtles to question Splinter. Being trained to kill from birth, by a father figure is actual, heavy stuff.

Issue 1 is the essential story. It needs to be told properly, as it does all the world building necessary. Every story after issue 1 is, in my view, an attempt to continue that stand alone story.

MsMarvelDuckie

01-11-2015, 01:24 AM

But you buy into reincarnation? Dead is dead, I can't buy into something that died, suddenly becoming another living being. It's impossible to me. For me, it is possible that a rat might have memories of watching their owner perform katas or what ever. That could be possible, given that we know rats have memories, as people have memories. It's not a huge stretch to suppose the rat could retain memories. Memories are not solely based on what you find interesting. Maybe your memories are, but mine sure are not. I have all sorts of memories, pleasant, unpleasant exciting, boring, pointless facts etc.

Again, I don't think there is an afterlife of any kind, including the idea of a soul, and therefore, it is absurd to me, simply put. Any fiction that uses elements of heaven, hell, etc is boring in my opinion. When I encounter it in TMNT media, I turn off. Reincarnation is an extension of belief that is actually retarded, and I'm using that word in it's proper context, it retards our understanding of life, supposing false answers in place of questions. It's detrimental to the growth of humanity, and insulting to intelligent individuals. I'd like to not discuss it though, seeing as this is a hot button issue at the best of times. I've only replied to the question, and wish to say no more so as not to really offend the theists here.

So, you liked the blue door script? I would have never guessed.
You and I are interested in completely different subject matter.

Blue Door? Oh GAWDS no! At least, not from what I've seen/heard of it. Honestly, I'm glad we got what we did over THAT potential travesty. Where did I ever say I liked it?! TMNT as aliens and "chosen" of their race? Um- no. Smacks too much of Superman or some such for my taste. These are NOT the "saviors/last survivors" of some alien planet. Just- that would kill it as TMNT.

As for reincarnation, etc- I "buy into" that AS A STORY/ORIGIN, yes. I do happen to have done a LOT of research and study on esoteric subjects- for reasons I won't get into- but that is simply something I enjoy in my fiction. I am an avid lover of Greek and roman mythology- after all, what were those stories if not man's first "superheroes"? Calling them gods and such is just an easy way to describe larger-than-life heroes and villains, explain phenomena that people didn't understand, and- well, you get the idea. Modern superhero comics are not so different. They ARE the mythology of our time. Turtles included. Likewise with much of our modern sci-fi and fantasy. A thousand years from now, people will marvel (heh, play on words there) that we were so fascinated by these outrageous and unbelievable stories of creatures that couldn't and didn't exist. sound familiar? That's no different than people telling stories of kappas or the exploits of Coyote or Anansi.

As for what a rat would remember, I think it's more a case of what would the rat pay attention to as relevant(ie, conscious memory), rather than what it has SEEN. Sure, it might remember SEEING him do those things, but would it pay attention to it enough to LEARN it? Highly doubtful. Rats don't think the same way we do, nor do they have the same priorities or motivations. A rat seeing his master do katas would likely be more interested in a fly that happens to buzz around its cage, or the food sitting in its bowl than the man standing on the other end of the room making odd movements it doesn't comprehend. Certainly not enough interest to be able to CLEARLY and ACCURATELY remember those movements years later. And therein lies the crux of it. How does the animal with NO use for or attention span for a human activity suddenly magically remember it well enough to not only become a Master of said activity himself, but teach it to others? He can't. He has no frame of reference other than some vague recollection of something his master used to do that he never actively paid attention to. Which is why ANY other origin works better.

I'm not saying E&L's original version was bad, it just- seems weird and forced. I'd have bought into it better perhaps if Yoshi had still been alive after Splinter and turtle-tots mutated, and Splinter began studying under him then. (And then Yoshi gets killed, and Splinter has much more motivation for wanting revenge!) Now THAT would be an epic origin! (And it would tie everything together more realistically.)

MsMarvelDuckie

01-11-2015, 01:37 AM

YES! I agree, but I'm not trying to anthropomorphize Splinter. I'm citing scientific studies, and working with the source to establish the REASON for a blood feud. Otherwise they are 4 animals that happen to mutate, but are still just animals, with zero reason to care at all that one human is initiating a crime wave in New York. They have no reason to care! Why does splinter train them? In the 1st issue, it's because he wants revenge. He wants them to kill Saki.
Otherwise? "Hey freaks, let's get crazy and learn some martial arts cause, well, I'm just zany and bored."

By Splinter having a Motive, or an Agenda, his actions have purpose. It also opens up the opportunity for the Turtles to question Splinter. Being trained to kill from birth, by a father figure is actual, heavy stuff.

Issue 1 is the essential story. It needs to be told properly, as it does all the world building necessary. Every story after issue 1 is, in my view, an attempt to continue that stand alone story.

I'm not saying remove Splinter's motive, I'm just saying he should have a REASON for that motive. Revenge is a HUMAN emotion, one that animals don't understand or pursue. If anything, Splinter's motive would have been simply to seek a new home and source of food, in the original scenario. Why would he CARE what happened to Yoshi beyond losing his source of both? Makes no sense. But if he WAS Yoshi, or had been in a past life, then suddenly that death (or exile in the case of the OT and Nick) has far more meaning to him. Or- see my above post for an alternative version that uses both Yoshi and rat-Splinter.

No amount of studies are going to give a rat a purely human motive, sadly. And isn't that what we're discussing? Human motives? Splinter's motive really only works if he WAS one, at some point. Otherwise, he's just a rat who went "rabid" on a guy who knocked over his cage during a fight, and then later remembers that that same man was responsible for his loss of a home and food-source. And suddenly decides he wants paybacks for that loss.

pennydreadful

01-11-2015, 01:44 AM

I couldn't learn what that girl did either way. The only way Splinter would be a master is if:
1. He was human and was trained by a sensei
2. Was trained by a sensei after he became mutated.

There is no way by just watching Yoshi do his kata (basically a dance) he would learn the psychology of the martial art. I think it's safe to say the best way to have Splinter's mastery of Martial Arts explained is to have him be Hamato Yoshi first.

Also, my father was a black belt in Karate, and Judo, and he used to make me go to his dojo as a kid, I sat there and watched and watched for HOURS for years...never learned a thing.

Well, you did say that you personally have a problem with learning by watching - but it doesn't mean that someone else couldn't. Just like I have a problem with math - that doesn't mean that someone else can't do sums in their head just because I can't.

What boggles my mind is that they went so far as to even storyboard a different origin, in which Splinter has the techniques implanted into his mind while he was a lab rat, which while kinda ridiculous, is a hell of a lot easier to swallow. Yet they opted to give him a Solson's martial arts guide. :tlol: I can only assume that was changed due to how expensive the CGI got. I hope that's why, anyway, because if a team of people thought a handbook made more sense, then I weep for the future of mankind. :trazz:

What chaps my wizened hide is that I feel they only changed the origin to begin with because they weren't competent enough to convey the Yoshi/Saki backstory (despite the fact that it's been conveyed quite easily in numerous childrens cartoons). They didn't sit down and go "I have a good idea and think this would add to the story" - they changed it because they're lazy writers. They seem to have borrowed so heavily from the OT with everything else, I feel that they would have gone for the origin in that cartoon were it not for the fact that they're not good enough storytellers to figure out how to do it. I guess they never heard of flashbacks. :trolleye:

Though personally I would've rather had five minutes explaining a little backstory than twenty minutes of Megan Fox fluffing around being a "reporter" before we get any Turtle action. But hey, that's just me - I'm wacky that way. :tlol:

As far as Splinter being motivated to copy Yoshi as a rat, I always had my own little headcanon that maybe Yoshi rewarded Splinter for doing things like standing up on his hind legs, and it went from there. They have done studies that show dogs will copy human body movements and behavior, even when they don't get a food reward.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/pets-dogs-imitate-people.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/dogs-can-copy-what-humans-do-even-10-minutes-later/2013/07/29/bcfbdbb0-f2ca-11e2-ae43-b31dc363c3bf_story.html

Again, it's a all conjecture given that the basic premise requires a bit of suspension of disbelief, still, it's not completely implausible.

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 01:49 AM

Blue Door? Oh GAWDS no! At least, not from what I've seen/heard of it. Honestly, I'm glad we got what we did over THAT potential travesty. Where did I ever say I liked it?! TMNT as aliens and "chosen" of their race? Um- no. Smacks too much of Superman or some such for my taste. These are NOT the "saviors/last survivors" of some alien planet. Just- that would kill it as TMNT.

As for reincarnation, etc- I "buy into" that AS A STORY/ORIGIN, yes. I do happen to have done a LOT of research and study on esoteric subjects- for reasons I won't get into- but that is simply something I enjoy in my fiction. I am an avid lover of Greek and roman mythology- after all, what were those stories if not man's first "superheroes"? Calling them gods and such is just an easy way to describe larger-than-life heroes and villains, explain phenomena that people didn't understand, and- well, you get the idea.

There you have it. Reincarnation is as distasteful to me as aliens are to you. Maybe you think reincarnation is simply another story. I think it's a dangerous idea, like any other religion, especially in stories aimed at our youth. It also just pulls me out of the story.

I also hate the notion that the turtles are possibly one of a race of other turtles, devised by utroms...etc. ugh. There are only 4 turtles, in one happy accident. Other mutants are just that, other mutants. I prefer chaos to order, because that is life.

I've also read many Greek and Roman Myths, and they are fun, but contemporary stories, such as TMNT, deserve better than thinking that is 1000's of years old. TMNT is a story of it's time, when NY was going through hell, and murder was an everyday threat. It's about the 80's, layered with the angst and fear of that era. When people stared at their shoes walking down the street, and never made eye contact. When alligators might be living in the sewers. When MJ was young and Black.

Bring it back, bring it all back in a film. No cellphones, no twitter, no ever present terrorist threats. Just jive talk and corrupt cops, punk clothes and Afros.

Could have been a great film.

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 02:02 AM

As far as Splinter being motivated to copy Yoshi as a rat, I always had my own little headcanon that maybe Yoshi rewarded Splinter for doing things like standing up on his hind legs, and it went from there. They have done studies that show dogs will copy human body movements and behavior, even when they don't get a food reward.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/pets-dogs-imitate-people.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/dogs-can-copy-what-humans-do-even-10-minutes-later/2013/07/29/bcfbdbb0-f2ca-11e2-ae43-b31dc363c3bf_story.html

Again, it's a all conjecture given that the basic premise requires a bit of suspension of disbelief, still, it's not completely implausible.

This is the thing. Ms marvel refuses to acknowledge that animals, other than the human variety, might have some of the traits that humans do.

Study after study, in the last few years, have proven over and over again, that we have underestimated other creatures on this planet. I'm arguing, it's plausible, that's all. I'll take Yoshi training a Rat, with rewards or what ever, to Cosmopolitan Ninja or reincarnated dead family, any day.

MsMarvelDuckie

01-11-2015, 02:13 AM

As much as I love the nostalgia angle, and the 80's, I'd want a TMNT that could belong to any time from 80's to present. I'd want it to feel like it could have taken place thirty years ago or yesterday. Makes for a movie that ages better, IMHO.

Deserve better than thinking that is thousands of years old? There's not much difference, really. TMNT and Superman are today what Hercules and Medusa would have been to the Greeks. Entertaining stories that also have a message, and themes that are as old as storytelling.

FWIW, reincarnation on its own is not a religion. It's a spiritual belief that is PART of several theological traditions. I think you're putting too much into it as an "afterlife" thing, to be honest. There is nothing dangerous about themes of hope, destiny, family, loyalty, or love, which is what these traditions are all about. Or enlightenment. True enlightenment is supposed to come when one realizes that one really knows nothing at all, and accepts that. It puts one's place in the universe into clearer perspective, as part of a vast, inter-connected web of life and energy. This is not a simple religious dogma, it is a philosophy of living that eschews the self and material entrapments. It's also quite scientific, if you think about it. We are made of energy and matter that has been around since the beginning of the universe. Our atoms are the atoms of the sun, of the Big Bang, or of Gandhi or Hitler. Reincarnation is really nothing more than a spiritual extension of that understanding in terms of the human condition. And that is a fact, not belief.

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 02:18 AM

MsMarvelDuckie

01-11-2015, 02:30 AM

This is the thing. Ms marvel refuses to acknowledge that animals, other than the human variety, might have some of the traits that humans do.

Study after study, in the last few years, have proven over and over again, that we have underestimated other creatures on this planet. I'm arguing, it's plausible, that's all. I'll take Yoshi training a Rat, with rewards or what ever, to Cosmopolitan Ninja or reincarnated dead family, any day.

No, I have fully acknowledged that SOME animals have "human" traits such as basic emotions like affection or sadness or even jealousy. There is ample enough proof of that. Human MOTIVATIONS are what I'm arguing against, FYI. In other words, they don't share motives like revenge and other complex drives. But regardless, imitation of simple actions like opening a door (I had a cat that could do this, and he could unlock it, too) or digging a hole still don't equate to performing a series of katas. There's not a rat (or dog) alive smart enough to copy that. Or physically capable of it, for that matter. A rat's (or dog's) hind legs don't even bend the right way for that! He might be capable of waving his front paws in an approximation of a strike, but without the proper form or stance, or any force behind it. Kicks would simply be impossible based on balance alone, without even taking body structure into account. As would most of the spins, flips, grapples, or other moves of many martial arts. Boxing or Sumo, maybe- but.... They're not TMST. Although Raph might barely qualify, LOL!

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 02:35 AM

MsMarvelDuckie

01-11-2015, 02:41 AM

Not in the way it's being used in IDW.
And as much as your "religion lite" version seems less intrusive, it's still not the story, but another story. And yes, of course reincarnation is only a tenant of religion, or many religions. I know the difference, but dislike the notion regardless.

And by 1000 year old thinking, you know what I mean.
I know you'd like to take this conversation further, but I'm hamstrung by the constraints of the forum.

I'll go on preferring the Mirage origin, you can keep exploring your interests.
We will have to agree to disagree, the thread has gone off topic for too long...

Not sure whet you're referring to with how it's used in IDW- there has been NO mention of any specific religion or theology there. It merely mentioned that he prayed to whatever gods there were. The reincarnation didn't come into play until later, when Splinter told them about the past. And Leo began to remember things.

No, actually, I have no idea what you mean by 1000 year old thinking. Calling those old heroes "gods"? The only difference there is that now we call them "superheroes". It's a name. Something to designate that they are more than human, or have inhuman powers or what have you. People tend to give their heroes larger than life origins or stories, and ascribe abilities that are ridiculous to them. Nothing new about that. Look at Hollywood celebrity "worship". Same thing. It's just human nature.

I'll agree that it's derailed the thread a bit, but it IS still sort of in the spirit (pardon the pun) of what we feel would make a better TMNT movie. Basically, I think if they altered the origin from the new one just a little by adding in the past life bit, it would make MUCH more sense, or perhaps they could just show that Splinter was already learning a great deal when getting those injections in the lab to add to what he got out of that book (and possibly others).

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 02:49 AM

No, actually, I have no idea what you mean by 1000 year old thinking. Calling those old heroes "gods"?

I'll agree that it's derailed the thread a bit, but it IS still sort of in the spirit (pardon the pun) of what we feel would make a better TMNT movie. Basically, I think if they altered the origin from the new one just a little by adding in the past life bit, it would make MUCH more sense, or perhaps they could just show that Splinter was already learning a great deal when getting those injections in the lab to add to what he got out of that book (and possibly others).

I can't say anymore without treading into religious discussion. I don't want to anger our "gods" and lock the thread.

To the second point, I abhor the film, and there is nothing to salvage, except for the actor who played Shredder. Everything else is absolute junk. If they dared insert afterlife bollocks into the sequel, I'd really lose it.

Pray they don't.

MsMarvelDuckie

01-11-2015, 02:51 AM

As a rat, no, once mutated, yes?
The memories remained.

Anyways, all I have to say is:

Nc9xq-TVyHI

Think this dog would dance better as a mutant? I bet he would!

Might not be as cute though.

If we really want to dig into it, no turtle would ever have the right hip/shoulder structure to do half of what they do either. A fused backbone to a shell, etc...the list is endless. We need a pinch of that magic powder known as suspension of disbelief.

I guess it's the memories that bug me, since (I'll say it again) I don't buy that he'd have paid enough notice to "remember" any of what he saw. It would just be so much pointless movement to him. The dog dancing is cute, I'll give you that, but at least it's still physically possible. Rats doing side-kicks isn't. His leg would snap.

As for the turtles, I've always wondered about the shell thing, myself, and the best I can come up with is a lower hip structure (just below the shell rather than attached to it) and shoulders that are outside of it. Looking at the 90's movie suits, it's not hard to see how the shoulder joints would have been detached from the shell, and pushed upward. This would at least give them full range of motion of arms. Legs is a bit harder, but if we take the pelvis and extend the spine just a bit below the shell, with the pelvis there, it works. There have been a couple of artworks that showed how they would be anatomically built. The best version seems to be a bridgeless shell. That gives side mobility, at least. But I'm more concerned with how Splinter does katas as a normal rat.....

As for that film's quality of lack thereof, to each their own, of course, but I enjoyed quite a bit of it. What I didn't enjoy was Shredder's hackneyed scheme and Sachs basically TELLING everyone what they were plotting as if taunting them to stop it. Even before they had the mutagen to implement it. That's just arrogant and tacky....

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 03:04 AM

It's really easy to prove that they wouldn't be able to stand up. Take a broomstick, and tape it to your back. Now try and run. Every time you feel your spine move with your body, that's an impossibility for the turtles. It's the same with people with wings on their back, their spine would snap, as the spine isn't ridged, and on the first down beat of the wing, they'd become paralyzed.

You can argue the logic of memories all day, but given a choice, most people will be charmed by the rats "feelings" in the story, and project their own emotions, 100% proven scientific or not, over the mystical past life phenomena.

To wit, everyone loves cat videos, and their pets, respectively. They project all sorts of things onto them. Some even seem to show true emotions, and human like behavior. We trust that feeling, it gives us warm fuzzies.

The president goes on television tomorrow and declares he is the reincarnation of MLK, impeachment is sure to follow, because we'll think he's crazy.

Candy Kappa

01-11-2015, 03:12 AM

For me the reincarnation angle is too convinient, the father and his sons (but not mommy, girls don't have a soul and isn't reincarnated) returns back from the dead as animals, but luckily so happened to be mutated into a bipedal form, able to remember past experience in martial arts, so they can take revenge against the man who murdered them 700 years ago, who conviently was hibernating to the same time frame the reincarnation took place and the animals got mutated.

One of the main component in the Turtles origin is that they where an accident, not divine intervention of a longer plot that went over 700 years in waiting. Doing the reincarnation makes a lot of questions. Like, where they in the reincarnation cycle between Yoshi & Sons, or did their souls linger 700 years until Saki was done hibernating?

If they where cycling through lives between Y&S to TMNT, why don't any of them remeber those lives..? Where they not important enough, was rat and turtle life the first time they where together in a new life, or where they always together in a father and sons relationship, one way or the other.

The Mirage origin have its flaws, like how can Splinter be alive as a normal rat when the Yoshi and Nagi feud was 18 years before Saki killed Shen and Yoshi (it was meant to b explained, but Mirage never did, so for all sense and purposes Splinter is a normal rat who miraculously lived for over 20 year). And it explicit states Splinter was mimicking moves, instead of observing. But personally, when those pills are swallowed, I think the story is the superior one due to the shades of gray morality of Splinter, Shredder and the theme of the cycle of vengeance and its trail of tragedy.

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 03:21 AM

I agree, there are some flaws, no doubt, but small changes could be made without destroying the story. the 18 years between events could be shortened to 4 or 5, and the rat fully mimicking the moves of his master, could be changed to something like this:

B_oo5ky_s2o

Maybe Yoshi, one day while practicing his forms notices the rat watching him. Perhaps he realizes over time that the rat appears to pay attention when he's running his forms. Maybe on day, the rat stands on it's hind legs, and looks as though he is trying to copy the form, though poorly, and as Yoshi goes to reward him, saki emerges from the shadows to claim his life.

I'm not against smoothing a few minor issues out. There could be ways to play within the original to make it work. There is no need to upend the entire cart and start from whole clothe.

Candy Kappa

01-11-2015, 03:40 AM

The live-action movie did shorten the time span by eliminating Nagi from the story and had Saki as an adult and being Yoshi's love rival. but, they also changed Splinter's motive for training and caringfor the Turtles.

Although, I'd love to see a morally ambiguous Splinter that trained the Turtles to be his assassins. We're never gonna see that in movie form, Splinter needs to be the de facto white hat, and Shredder must be the black hat it seems. Even IDW did that.

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 03:47 AM

Although, I'd love to see a morally ambiguous Splinter that trained the Turtles to be his assassins. We're never gonna see that in movie form, Splinter needs to be the de facto white hat, and Shredder must be the black hat it seems. Even IDW did that.

So much this^^^^

It kills me that it's never been explored in the films. THAT would make a great story.

Leo656

01-11-2015, 04:32 AM

Alllllll that is why I NEVER liked Splinter as a rat-first. I mean, I saw the cartoons first so mentally, I'd already grabbed onto "Yoshi became Splinter" for years before the first movie told me different, but it never changed it in my head.

Both are equally implausible for a TON of reasons, but... "The guy turned into a rat" is just SO much simpler, and saves us all the debate about how plausible it would or wouldn't be for a rat to learn martial arts, stand upright, or remember pre-mutation events.

I mean, yes, technically the Turtles themselves don't "work" if we want to get technical about it. I've always just said in my head that "The mutagen does some serious internal restructuring, to the point of completely changing/distorting the bone, muscle, and organ structure of whatever creatures it affects", and also, "It's probably super-painful as hell and happens sort of gradually." That's the only thing I don't like about how the original cartoon presented Splinter's origin, it seemed to kinda happen all at once and it wouldn't.

I mean, yeah, huge leaps of logic and plausibility and "science" all around, but it's the only way *I* can ever make sense of any of it in a "realistic" way, without going the "It's all bullsh*t so who cares" route. To me, it's just SIMPLER to say that Splinter was a human first, and that the mutagen just completely flips creatures inside-out and sideways, plus it's all fake SO you can just leave it there and not extrapolate on it any further. It just keeps things simple. And your simplest explanation is the one you're supposed to roll with. Splinter being a rat just causes TOO many leaps of logical faith, as the last few pages will attest. It makes SO little sense that it gets people arguing about which parts are more or less nonsensical than others! :lol: I can buy a human becoming ratlike, and I can buy baby turtles mutated at a young age growing up to emulate human behavior. NOTHING about the "rat Splinter" origin ever made a lick of sense to me. You have to fight too hard to justify it, honestly.

As for the reincarnation angle, it's "interesting" but it's not something I'm a huge fan of. I don't think it fits this franchise, or at least, again, it only does if you take huge steps to force it to work, at which point you may as well not bother. As far as the actual effects of the mutagen, I think we all have to agree that the Nick version's "Magic Potion Of Plot Devices" is about as sh*tty as it gets. :lol: That show sure lost steam fast.

Candy Kappa

01-11-2015, 04:53 AM

neatoman

01-11-2015, 05:15 AM

The Nick origin would have been pretty good in live-action, personally the Yoshi Origin, I prefer and find the most compelling.

It could even have been tied to Sacks industries instead of the Kraang.

I don't like the Nick origin because it's pretty boring, it's just Yoshi randomly bumping into the Kraang as soon as he bought the turtles. The only interesting part about it is the backstory, which is pretty much the one from the 1990 movie with a baby added.

The origin in the Mirage comics, the Movie and the 2003 show may just be a riff on Daredevil but I love the irony of Yoshi's rat getting his unlikely chance to avenge Yoshi through such a random series of events, and it keeps the Utroms a mystery for a little while. In the Nick origin it's like "Oh no, he turned into rat after meeting aliens in alley, how tragic I guess?...".

Though I guess it's better than Yoshi just crawling down a sewer as soon as he arrives in New York, instead of actually trying to build a new life there.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-11-2015, 10:31 AM

You're not in a minority for thinking that the Captain America: Winter Soldier is a superior movie as I'm pretty sire a lot of people rank that film pretty high however I do think you're in a minority for think The First Avenger is terrible. What's so bad about it?

I watched it twice, did not enjoy it. I don't like to harp on things I don't like so I can't really get too in depth on it. I do remember thinking it was just so cheesy.

I think you can appreciate that the reason that Shredder is their primary villain is because of their personal connection. Otherwise you could replace him with any kind of character, an alien, a military commander, an evil industrialist....oh wait. Simply being mad at each other for disrupting their plans seem hollow by comparison.

Not to mention that it doesn't a lick of sense. Sure Shredder wants the turtles and Splinter for the mutagen in their blood but why on Earth where the turtles actively hunting the Foot? How did Splinter know so much about Shredder?

The film makers tried to play their conflict and confrontations with the same kind of drama that other versions have yet it doesn't make any sense. Taken with the origin they have there's no reason for these characters to behave the way the way they do except others versions did it.

The Turtles have many enemies who want to kill them because they stand for good. That is the age old recipe for comic books and comic book movies, and actually action movies in general. So yes there can be a villain who simply wants them dead so he or she can accomplish their evil plan.

The movie clear as day states that Shredder and the Foot have been trying to take over the city for years, that's when Splinter gives that AWFUL reason for why they're called the Foot. He says he trained them to fight for the people in the city. That is a very noble reason if you ask me. It's the same reason Superman fights for Metropolis, because he has the powers, and wants to use them for good. He, like this version of the Turtles, did not have some tragedy happen as a child to make him vow revenge, they just do the right thing. That's why I like Superman, that's why I don't have a problem with this reasoning for this TMNT movie.

The Nolan brothers did that?

Batman Begins drew heavily from The Man Who Falls, Year One, The Long Halloween and the sequels drew from the similar comic stories in looser ways. I can't think of any non-comic version of Batman they drew from.

Yes...they don't take those comics word for word, image for image, and put them on the screen they used them as inspiration, and fit them into their own version.

Also a complete wouldn't really be a sequel but certainly I think the general audience would be open to major changes which I speaks to my next point.

This general audience you speak of, it's about 8 people on a message board. For the most part people went and saw this and just liked it. Some people can disconnect when they see a movie, and just enjoy it, instead of picking it apart the whole time. I know when I saw the movie, everyone I could hear and see was very excited when they left the theater, and it was all positive. I know just doing a search on twitter the weekend of he release there were a lot of people who simply thought it was a fun movie. So this "general audience" I think YOU think you know of, actually doesn't care .0000000000006% about the things you dislike, or want changed. Everyone here is putting WAY too much into the discussion of this movie, and maybe even TMNT overall. In the grand scheme of things, this movie, this franchise, it means relatively nothing.

Obviously I'm generalizing but I don't think by much. The emphasis should be on whether people really liked it.

By that I mean many of the people who enjoyed have openly stated or in some cases only reason they did so was seeing TMNT back in live action in the big screen. That kind of implies that if you took TMNT characters out and replaced them with...oh I dunno Battletoads characters they wouldn't enjoy the movie. So they haven't really liked the movie but continued liking TMNT.

Some people just like the turtles...I mean why is that such a bad thing? Does it really matter WHY you like them?

And yes I WOULD enjoy a Battletoads movie!

Not sure where you get that removing their various loin cloths would expose their crotches.

Well you said this I know it's shallow but one thing I really would like is if they got rid of the loin cloths and Donatello using mother boards and crotch coverings.

Well I was paying enough attention to see that when April fainted and Mikey had one more line the actual screen froze or after Raph was flexing the bullets out of his body the frames skipped. Likewise sometimes the action was hard to easily digest.

Were you watching a bootleg? I did not have those issues.

The turtles are also super strong. There's no way in hell any Foot soldier could stand a chance in hand to hand combat with the Bay turtles.

Well I personally want Baxter as the main villain in the sequel. He could create mousers, and robot foot soldiers.

Well Batman Begins didn't have anyone coming out if it saying it's the worst Batman movie or worst comic book ever made. TMNT had lots of that so I'd say that quite a lot of people thought it was botched.

Actually Nolan got beat up badly by "fanboys" and critics because he was trying to show as little as he could of Batman actually fighting people to show how he worked in the shadows and was fast and brutal...he was criticized heavily, for "not knowing how to film a fight scene" And Batman Begins, like TMNT, like Man of Steel, JUST made enough money for the studio to green light a sequel. If you watch Batman fight in the rest of the Trilogy his battles are very clear, and there are no quick cuts.

Dare I say that might have been a better (if not a compelling) motivation for Shredder in the first movie. He just wants to kill people none of this tricking the government crap with a cure crap.

Uh that IS what he's doing. He wants to kill millions of people so he can own New York City. Sacks just wants to be even more rich.

I read a book on hockey once. I don't play in the NHL.

I'm assuming you've watched it as well? Did that make you a pro?

"At least a rat with awakened intelligence and a humanoid body could remember the moves it saw its Master make and therefore apply them with its now advanced intelligence and humanoid body."

But said rat with awakened intelligence and a humanoid body can't learn from a book... k

Good thing it's a f*cking movie then.

Except when he learns to fight from a book, then it's a tragedy.

"Let's substitute something slightly ridiculous but also charming that the original creators did with something EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS AND CLICHE AND CONVOLUTED"

"Let's call the movie cliche and convoluted then complain they weren't more unoriginal and convoluted"

I'm sorry, but if you can't follow along with the INCREDIBLY simple plot of the movie, that's your fault.

YES! I agree, but I'm not trying to anthropomorphize Splinter. I'm citing scientific studies, and working with the source to establish the REASON for a blood feud. Otherwise they are 4 animals that happen to mutate, but are still just animals, with zero reason to care at all that one human is initiating a crime wave in New York. They have no reason to care! Why does splinter train them? In the 1st issue, it's because he wants revenge. He wants them to kill Saki.
Otherwise? "Hey freaks, let's get crazy and learn some martial arts cause, well, I'm just zany and bored."

By Splinter having a Motive, or an Agenda, his actions have purpose. It also opens up the opportunity for the Turtles to question Splinter. Being trained to kill from birth, by a father figure is actual, heavy stuff.

Issue 1 is the essential story. It needs to be told properly, as it does all the world building necessary. Every story after issue 1 is, in my view, an attempt to continue that stand alone story.

They do not NEED to have a blood feud. That is just your preferred reason for them to feud. Many conflicts are made from ideological differences, religious differences, political differences etc... The attack that happened in France was not because the cartoonist had some blood feud with those extremists... There is a common thread in comic books and comic book movies and tv shows. Good vs Evil. That's it, it's very simple.

Bring it back, bring it all back in a film. No cellphones, no twitter, no ever present terrorist threats. Just jive talk and corrupt cops, punk clothes and Afros.

Could have been a great film.

There was this great movie made in 1990...

As for those videos of the dogs, they didn't learn those tricks from sitting in a cage and watching, their owner interacted with them, and taught it to them. My dog is very smart, but he still needs to be taught things.

The Boston Ninja Turtle

01-11-2015, 02:19 PM

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-11-2015, 03:01 PM

Actually, I don't think a single established TMNT villain wants to kill them because "evil." For instance...

Shredder has a long-standing blood feud with Yoshi/Splinter stemming from a love rivalry for Tang Shen as well as rivalry for the leadership of the Foot Clan.

Karai (or Pimiko, depending on which series) is Saki's daughter and wants to avenge her father's death or defeat, and so continues the blood feud between the Turtles and the Foot.

Baxter Stockman has a grudge against April O'Neil, not the Turtles, for her seeming betrayal of him and his company, leading to his financial ruin.

Agent Bishop is trying to protect his planet from alien invasion, and sees the Turtles as threats to world security.

Krang is trying to establish a new homeworld for his people or trying to conquer Dimension X...

I'd say only henchmen can be qualified as "villains because evil", and that's mainly because their motivations are to serve their superiors and not be punished. E.g. Hun, Bebop and Rocksteady, Koya, etc.

The only "villain because evil" examples that come to mind are the 2014 movie's Eric Sachs and Shredder... because that script was utterly devoid of any character development, legitimate backstory, or intelligent motivation for their villains.

Leo656

01-11-2015, 03:17 PM

Having completely hollow or shallow reasons for the Yoshi/Shredder feud is only *slightly* better than zero reasons. Especially when they already had a perfectly good reason that nobody was asking to be changed. "BUT DIFFERENT!!!" Nobody cares, it pissed a lot of people off so clearly it wasn't as cute or as clever as they thought it would be.

And come on, why would a bunch of mutated animals living in the sewer develop any "Noble Reasons" to want to "protect the city"? Why would they honestly give two sh*ts and a f*ck? They wouldn't, other than The Movie Says So. There's not only no reason for them to feud, there's not even any reason for Splinter and the Turtles to even care. The absolute smartest thing for any of them to do would have been to stay in the damn sewers and stay out of everything. But, then there's no movie, thus, the compulsion to be super-heroes (despite never being super-heroes) that is literally written into their DNA, apparently. Because It's A Movie, and without these oh-so-convenient contrivances, there's no story.

It's all just Different For Different's Sake with no concern as to whether it's actually Good. That's NEVER a good reason to do anything.

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 03:48 PM

It's the same reason Superman fights for Metropolis, because he has the powers, and wants to use them for good. He, like this version of the Turtles, did not have some tragedy happen as a child to make him vow revenge, they just do the right thing. That's why I like Superman, that's why I don't have a problem with this reasoning for this TMNT movie.

Some people just like the turtles...I mean why is that such a bad thing? Does it really matter WHY you like them?

And yes I WOULD enjoy a Battletoads movie!

They do not NEED to have a blood feud. That is just your preferred reason for them to feud. Many conflicts are made from ideological differences, religious differences, political differences etc... The attack that happened in France was not because the cartoonist had some blood feud with those extremists... There is a common thread in comic books and comic book movies and tv shows.

Good vs Evil. That's it, it's very simple.

At this point, you've chosen to simply be contrary, nothing more. You have not made any compelling arguments, at all, and further proven that you just don't understand TMNT.

The FW cartoon was often enough, just a good v evil storyline, I'll give you that.
I'm not advocating for a return to FW's storytelling style.

The turtles are not superheroes! I could have sworn we did this once before!

The turtles are nothing like Superman. The turtles are not interested in saving the world, unless they in some way benefit.

The turtles are not little altruistic messiahs running around doing good for the sake of doing good.

You guys love this movie precisely for the reasons others hate it. They've transformed it into something it's not.

I'm positive that, if they had kept the themes present in Mirage, you wouldn't have enjoyed the movie at all. I'm sure of it now.

Cure

01-11-2015, 03:55 PM

I'm positive that, if they had kept the themes present in Mirage, you wouldn't have enjoyed the movie at all. I'm sure of it now.

I definitely would not have enjoyed it.

It's a different story. I know I enjoyed them being super hero like.

The Boston Ninja Turtle

01-11-2015, 03:58 PM

even superman has better morals than I'm good so I fight bad

And I hate that guy

pennydreadful

01-11-2015, 04:01 PM

This general audience you speak of, it's about 8 people on a message board. For the most part people went and saw this and just liked it. Some people can disconnect when they see a movie, and just enjoy it, instead of picking it apart the whole time. I know when I saw the movie, everyone I could hear and see was very excited when they left the theater, and it was all positive. I know just doing a search on twitter the weekend of he release there were a lot of people who simply thought it was a fun movie. So this "general audience" I think YOU think you know of, actually doesn't care .0000000000006% about the things you dislike, or want changed. Everyone here is putting WAY too much into the discussion of this movie, and maybe even TMNT overall. In the grand scheme of things, this movie, this franchise, it means relatively nothing.

So eight people are responsible for this movie being Razzie-nominated? Damn, I wish I had that kind of influence!

Look, opinions on the movie are divided. Some love it, some hate it. But you can't say that nearly everyone loves it, because that simply isn't true. If that were the case, there would be no negative reviews of the movie. All you have to do is Google "Michael Bay Ninja Turtles sucks" and you'll get page after page of results. There are hundreds of negative user reviews on sites like IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes. So you can't say it's just eight people complaining.

To say that movies shouldn't be picked apart is an argument that's never made any sense to me - art and entertainment exist to be analyzed. That's why fandoms exist - because people like to discuss things. If something is good, it should be able to stand up to a bit of criticism and analysis. Not everything needs to be Citizen Kane, but that doesn't mean that entertainment should be exempt from criticism just because it's intended to be "light". I would frankly find it alarming to live in a world where people just accept anything they're given without thinking about what they're taking in.

That's like saying that pop songs can't have any kind of deeper meaning and should be exempt from analysis, purely because they're pop. It simply isn't true. Pop can be good - like Michael Jackson - or it can be fairly drecky - like Hanson or Rebecca Black. All of whom sold numerous records on their own, to be sure, but not all of whom are considered good.

tl;dr - Something can be both fluffy and good at the same time. The two terms are not mutually exclusive.

Shark_Blade

01-11-2015, 04:08 PM

I agree, more screen time for the turtles like showing their downtime, just having fun - like Mikey waiting for the pizza guy with Donnie.

I'd say:
- 40% Megan Fox/April
- 40% Turtles
- 20% villain, story related plots

The Boston Ninja Turtle

01-11-2015, 06:15 PM

Yeah, but wouldn't it have been sweet, to have that as the opening? The whole DD rip-off as the lead in? Leaving the pet-shop, car chase, cars swerves to avoid the old man and Chet, See Chet lose the turtles down the sewer, camera follows them down the drain into black, a canister of glowing liquid smashes open above them. title credits roll.

Damn, just take my money.
.

I completely missed this dude my bad

Don't get me wrong I'd be right there next to you id love to see this version of the origin finally in live action...I love the ideas of the happy accident..

I was saying poor Chet just lost bunches of money from losing his new pet turtles

Actually I will admit I used to hate the idea of human splinter. Don't know why, it wasn't till recently where his story was a little more fleshed out that I like the idea of yoshi becoming splinter

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 06:21 PM

I completely missed this dude my bad

Don't get me wrong I'd be right there next to you id love to see this version of the origin finally in live action...I love the ideas of the happy accident..

I was saying poor Chet just lost bunches of money from losing his new pet turtles

No question. But the reasons for the cost of turtles today is a whole other issue, an incredibly sad result of ignorance, and in many ways, a direct result of Turtlemania.

At least, with higher prices, parents will think a little harder about adopting a pet, then releasing it when it gets too difficult to care for.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-11-2015, 06:27 PM

I am on a tablet so to quote the specific line is very tough and this won't be as well written

but it's not true the turtles " have villians and who want to kill them because they'd stand for good"

Most tmnt villians want to get rid of them because they stand in their way or foiled their plans of something evil .

Um...why are the Turtles standing in their way? Because good. Bad guy bad, good guy good. Every single villain in TMNT does not have or need to have a blood feud to make it a legit feud.

Actually, I don't think a single established TMNT villain wants to kill them because "evil." For instance...

Shredder has a long-standing blood feud with Yoshi/Splinter stemming from a love rivalry for Tang Shen as well as rivalry for the leadership of the Foot Clan.

Karai (or Pimiko, depending on which series) is Saki's daughter and wants to avenge her father's death or defeat, and so continues the blood feud between the Turtles and the Foot.

Baxter Stockman has a grudge against April O'Neil, not the Turtles, for her seeming betrayal of him and his company, leading to his financial ruin.

Agent Bishop is trying to protect his planet from alien invasion, and sees the Turtles as threats to world security.

Krang is trying to establish a new homeworld for his people or trying to conquer Dimension X...

I'd say only henchmen can be qualified as "villains because evil", and that's mainly because their motivations are to serve their superiors and not be punished. E.g. Hun, Bebop and Rocksteady, Koya, etc.

The only "villain because evil" examples that come to mind are the 2014 movie's Eric Sachs and Shredder... because that script was utterly devoid of any character development, legitimate backstory, or intelligent motivation for their villains.

Every single one of them are evil, and the turtles are in their way because....wait for it....because GOOD. They want to get rid of the Turtles....wait for it.....because BAD.

And come on, why would a bunch of mutated animals living in the sewer develop any "Noble Reasons" to want to "protect the city"? Why would they honestly give two sh*ts and a f*ck? They wouldn't, other than The Movie Says So. There's not only no reason for them to feud, there's not even any reason for Splinter and the Turtles to even care. The absolute smartest thing for any of them to do would have been to stay in the damn sewers and stay out of everything. But, then there's no movie, thus, the compulsion to be super-heroes (despite never being super-heroes) that is literally written into their DNA, apparently. Because It's A Movie, and without these oh-so-convenient contrivances, there's no story.

Why does any character in any story do anything...come on...Re-watch the movie, Splinter explains it in the beginning, the Foot and Shredder are terrorizing the city he says "Shredder will come at you with ferocity, his foot clan will outnumber you, and the people of New York will look upon you as their only hope." Splinter is the one who remembers what Sacks did to April's dad, and he knows Shredder was working with Sacks. He is the one who tells the Turtles they are destined to be heroes. So whether he's teaching them to be assassins or teaching them to be vigilante's, I think we all can agree Splinter is an abusive father and someone should call Child Protective services.

It's all just Different For Different's Sake with no concern as to whether it's actually Good. That's NEVER a good reason to do anything.

It was good to the people who made it. They wouldn't purposely make things bad...that is just dumb to think that. They opened the movie with animation, they could have told any story they wanted. Obviously they liked this story the most.

And I'm not defending their origin, I'm just saying who cares?

At this point, you've chosen to simply be contrary, nothing more. You have not made any compelling arguments, at all, and further proven that you just don't understand TMNT.

The FW cartoon was often enough, just a good v evil storyline, I'll give you that.
I'm not advocating for a return to FW's storytelling style.

The turtles are not superheroes! I could have sworn we did this once before!

The turtles are nothing like Superman. The turtles are not interested in saving the world, unless they in some way benefit.

The turtles are not little altruistic messiahs running around doing good for the sake of doing good.

You guys love this movie precisely for the reasons others hate it. They've transformed it into something it's not.

I'm positive that, if they had kept the themes present in Mirage, you wouldn't have enjoyed the movie at all. I'm sure of it now.

I'm not being contrary, what I'm saying is the origin does not have to be exactly re-told in order for the Turtles to fight Shredder. I'm not saying the Ninja Turtles origin is even good. It certainly isn't the most important thing for me. I personally do not even care about Splinter that much. I care for their relationship to Splinter more. I care more about the Turtles than what happened between Shredder and Splinter, because at the end of the day, the Turtles are fighting Shredder, not Splinter. And that doesn't mean I don't understand Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, it just means I enjoy different aspects of them than you. Neither of us are right or wrong.

The Mirage Turtles are not the only Turtles. You like that more than anything else, but that does not mean what you like has to be what everyone likes or is the absolute end all be all for what they CAN be. For the most part the Turtles are vigilante's fighting for the city who doesn't even know hey exist.

Explain to me what they gain by fighting villains? Since it's not for the sake of good, what is it they're fighting for then?

So eight people are responsible for this movie being Razzie-nominated? Damn, I wish I had that kind of influence!

Look, opinions on the movie are divided. Some love it, some hate it. But you can't say that nearly everyone loves it, because that simply isn't true. If that were the case, there would be no negative reviews of the movie. All you have to do is Google "Michael Bay Ninja Turtles sucks" and you'll get page after page of results. There are hundreds of negative user reviews on sites like IMDB and Rotten Tomatoes. So you can't say it's just eight people complaining.

To say that movies shouldn't be picked apart is an argument that's never made any sense to me - art and entertainment exist to be analyzed. That's why fandoms exist - because people like to discuss things. If something is good, it should be able to stand up to a bit of criticism and analysis. Not everything needs to be Citizen Kane, but that doesn't mean that entertainment should be exempt from criticism just because it's intended to be "light". I would frankly find it alarming to live in a world where people just accept anything they're given without thinking about what they're taking in.

That's like saying that pop songs can't have any kind of deeper meaning and should be exempt from analysis, purely because they're pop. It simply isn't true. Pop can be good - like Michael Jackson - or it can be fairly drecky - like Hanson or Rebecca Black. All of whom sold numerous records on their own, to be sure, but not all of whom are considered good.

tl;dr - Something can be both fluffy and good at the same time. The two terms are not mutually exclusive.

I did not say movies should not be picked apart, I said I have the ability to relax and just take in a movie, instead of looking for things to discredit the plot or cry about adaptations being different than I'd like it to be.

I did not collect many comics as a kid, but I collected the Knightfall series of Batman, and it's one of my favorite comics of all time. The Dark Knight Rises didn't follow along with it at all, save for maybe a few things, but I was able to watch that movie and enjoy the story Nolan was telling with these characters I knew. Unlike a lot of people who think the movie sucks just because Bane wears a different type of mask, and for different reasons. I want new stories, not retellings. They can use established characters, but I do not want rehashed re imagined stories.

The Boston Ninja Turtle

01-11-2015, 06:48 PM

Agai on a tablet atm so it's harder for me to quote,

But by your logic in this world who is to say the turtles are good?

If it's just bad vs good then who is what side?

Cause if the entire premise of evil is to get and I quote "stupid rich"Than I am your average Saturday morning cartoon super villain

Bry

01-11-2015, 06:48 PM

This general audience you speak of, it's about 8 people on a message board. For the most part people went and saw this and just liked it.

Well, the movie has audience scores of 55% at Rotten Tomatoes (based on 124,138 ratings), 5.1/10 at Metacritic (based on 421 ratings), and 6.0/10 on IMDB (based on 106,761 ratings). So the reaction to this movie is provably mixed, at best. A D-average isn't exactly something to be be proud of.

Um...why are the Turtles standing in their way? Because good. Bad guy bad, good guy good. Every single villain in TMNT does not have or need to have a blood feud to make it a legit feud.

...

Every single one of them are evil, and the turtles are in their way because....wait for it....because GOOD. They want to get rid of the Turtles....wait for it.....because BAD.

Of course that's a part of it, but you realize that what you're describing is the most absolute basic, paper-thin kind of conflict imaginable, right? Even children's cartoons have far more complicated and compelling conflicts and plots these days. Of course the heroes will operate out of altruism to some degree, but they need some kind of actual, understandable personal motivation in order to be compelling and interesting - and the villain does too. The last time "good guys good, bad guys bad" was enough, it looked something like this:

http://bioscopic.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/barneyoldfield.jpg

Good characters need motivation. That includes a strong backstory and a reason to react/respond to the plot in the way they do. Without that, they're barely characters at all. And without actual characters, you have a terrible story.

pennydreadful

01-11-2015, 07:03 PM

Um...why are the Turtles standing in their way? Because good. Bad guy bad, good guy good. Every single villain in TMNT does not have or need to have a blood feud to make it a legit feud.

There doesn't need to be a blood feud for every villain, but relatable/understandable motivation is always a plus. Otherwise, as Bry said, you end up with very one-dimensional characters fighting a bunch of equally one-dimensional mustache-twirlers.

Why does any character in any story do anything...

Well, if the writers are halfway competent, it's because they've been given believable motivation.

And I'm not defending their origin, I'm just saying who cares?

A great number of people care - as evidenced by this forum. And if you don't care, why continue to debate the matter?

I did not say movies should not be picked apart, I said I have the ability to relax and just take in a movie, instead of looking for things to discredit the plot or cry about adaptations being different than I'd like it to be.

A lot of people find it much easier to relax and lose themselves in a story when they're not being repeatedly jarred out of the narrative by bad writing, gaping plotholes and inconsistencies. I manage to relax just fine with numerous other movies, thanks very much.

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 07:24 PM

Bad guy bad, good guy good.

This says it all dude. You're making my point for me. You do not have any understanding of what makes tmnt interesting, or different than the main stream comics. If you just want bang bang boom, pow, zap, well, good for you, but you're really missing out.

... So whether he's teaching them to be assassins or teaching them to be vigilante's, I think we all can agree Splinter is an abusive father and someone should call Child Protective services.

And you don't care at all about Splinter, his backstory, or why he's not a great role model? You don't care, how his tutelage may have shaped, possibly warped or damaged his sheltered brood? That, doesn't matter?
All you want is boom, kaboom, kick flip, hi-ya? It doesn't matter what they fight for, just fight, right?

Why then, please tell me, are the turtles good? What about them makes them good guys?

It was good to the people who made it. They wouldn't purposely make things bad...that is just dumb to think that.

You are so naive. Wow. It's crazy you think that the people working on this movie gave a damn at all. They don't. They are looking to get paid man, that's all. They didn't try to make a good film, they just went to work, and did what they were told. No one is proud of this turd, please.

And I'm not defending their origin, I'm just saying who cares?

WE CARE! If you don't why are you arguing at all?

I'm not being contrary, what I'm saying is the origin does not have to be exactly re-told in order for the Turtles to fight Shredder. I'm not saying the Ninja Turtles origin is even good. It certainly isn't the most important thing for me. I personally do not even care about Splinter that much. I care for their relationship to Splinter more. I care more about the Turtles than what happened between Shredder and Splinter, because at the end of the day, the Turtles are fighting Shredder, not Splinter. And that doesn't mean I don't understand Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, it just means I enjoy different aspects of them than you. Neither of us are right or wrong.

Let's try this again. The entire reason that the turtles were taught Nijitsu at all, was so that one day they could go, and get revenge against Saki, for Splinter, because of his crime against Yoshi. That is IT! What is so hard to understand? They had 1 job! That's it! Everything else is just happenstance. Things happen to them, they encounter all sorts of odd things, they grow older, they suffer, they ponder their existence. But things happen, and the turtles react. Again, they are not super heroes!

The Mirage Turtles are not the only Turtles. You like that more than anything else, but that does not mean what you like has to be what everyone likes or is the absolute end all be all for what they CAN be. For the most part the Turtles are vigilante's fighting for the city who doesn't even know hey exist.

Explain to me what they gain by fighting villains? Since it's not for the sake of good, what is it they're fighting for then?

Man, I just don't know...I feel like you're talking out of your ass most of the time. I get that you want to be right, or you feel you liked what you saw and identify with it somehow, and that guys like me are trying to take you down or something.

That's just not it man. It's true, there are many ideas crammed into turtle "lore" over the decades, as attested to in the turtle doc from this year. At one point some one said something to the effect that " it's funny, the turtles are so mailable, you can put them in almost any situation, and it just works!"
So there is that aspect to the franchise. Maybe it's popularity stems from it's endless variation of themes and ideas. Maybe we all love something different.

I am saying, that the core of it all stems from the initial idea, and that, before making "wacky-punching-kung-fu-grip-arctic-monkey-battery-powered-Donatello" or "bong-smoking-transformer-12 inch-fire-fighter-Leonardo" that maybe we could get the original, without adding all the other conflicting stories to the mix. Save the gimmicks for the 4rth installment, when everyone's moved on to the Sonic Movie or Pokemon. Don't tart it up from the word go.

And no, we did not get that in 1990. That was a hybrid, pretty good, but not the greatest. If you'd read any Mirage, you'd know that.

TrickOrTreater

01-11-2015, 08:49 PM

It is fascinating to see a 5 year old with such a great vocabulary post on a message board.

"Good guy good, bad guy bad, they fight, me happy."

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-11-2015, 08:53 PM

But by your logic in this world who is to say the turtles are good?
If it's just bad vs good then who is what side?
Cause if the entire premise of evil is to get and I quote "stupid rich"Than I am your average Saturday morning cartoon super villain

Ok wow, let's just go by the 2014 movie plot. Shredder is attacking civilians, he's created a paramilitary force, which is killing, stealing and hurting CIVILIANS. Shredder and Sacks plan is to murder millions of people with a chemical, and then offer a cure after a few weeks. That is evil. The Turtles are putting their lives on the line to stop them. That is what's known as being "good". The Turtles for the most part, in every incarnation are fighting evil people. Gangs, monsters, tyrants... If they weren't good, they'd be either hiding and not doing anything, or they'd be out murdering, robbing, hurting innocent people.

but you realize that what you're describing is the most absolute basic, paper-thin kind of conflict imaginable, right? Even children's cartoons have far more complicated and compelling conflicts and plots these days. Of course the heroes will operate out of altruism to some degree, but they need some kind of actual, understandable personal motivation in order to be compelling and interesting - and the villain does too.
Good characters need motivation. That includes a strong backstory and a reason to react/respond to the plot in the way they do. Without that, they're barely characters at all. And without actual characters, you have a terrible story.

I was only using good vs bad because I think Commenter 42 said no TMNT villain is fighting the Turtles only because they're good.

There is plenty of motivation in the 2014 Turtles to fight Shredder, but the people who hate it, either are blind to it, ignore it, or just plain choose to deny it.

Shredder is terrorizing NYC.
Shredder and Sacks killed April's father (psssst this makes them bad)
Splinter has knowledge of all this (he tells April, except the part about Sacks killing her dad)
Splinter tells the Turtles they are destined to be heroes to NYC and to save them from Shredder.
Shredder tries to kill Splinter.
Shredder kidnaps 3 of the Turtles.
Sacks drains their blood, and wants every last drop "even if it kills them"
Sacks and Shredder are going to murder millions of people.
Raphael and the Turtles fight Shredder to save the innocent people and "for Splinter"

To me, it's plausible motivation. Is it the motivation I would have written in a movie? No. Does that mean I must crap all over this movie because it's different than what I would have come up with? No. To claim there is no motivation for these Turtles to fight Shredder is a lie.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-11-2015, 08:54 PM

There doesn't need to be a blood feud for every villain, but relatable/understandable motivation is always a plus. Otherwise, as Bry said, you end up with very one-dimensional characters fighting a bunch of equally one-dimensional mustache-twirlers.

Well, if the writers are halfway competent, it's because they've been given believable motivation.
And if you don't care, why continue to debate the matter?

The movie created enough plausible motivation for the Turtles to fight Shredder I do not know what you people are talking about.

Just because it's not the motivation you want does not mean it's not plausible motivation.

And I'm debating this topic because I think it's kind of silly to just claim the plot, writing and whatever else about the story, makes this movie terrible only because the past of Splinter and Shredder isn't what you want. I've said this so many times already. You are all blind, you won't just let the new movie create a new path for the Turtles. As long as the basics are there it's fine. Someone has used the "Bruce Wayne's parents never got killed" in comparison to Splinter and Shredder not having a past, and it's not the same thing, Shredder is still part of Splinter's past, he is one of the main reasons the Turtles exist, he tried to kill them, multiple times. He's there, there is motivation for them to fight.

Look at like Batman '89. They tweaked Bruce's past a little bit and had the Joker kill his parents, instead of a random homeless guy. Did it RUIN the movie? In my opinion no. Was it better than the true origin? In my opinion, no, but it did not make me sit there with a frowny face and my arms crossed saying "BOO HOO JOKER KILLED THE WAYNES WAAAAAAAAH MOVIE IS INVALID, IT MUST BE JOE CHILL THAT KILLED THE WAYNES!"

A lot of people find it much easier to relax and lose themselves in a story when they're not being repeatedly jarred out of the narrative by bad writing, gaping plotholes and inconsistencies. I manage to relax just fine with numerous other movies, thanks very much.

I'm sorry but this is just a ridiculous statement. The movie is so basic there isn't even enough time to jar you out of the narrative. If you want to say the story was too basic, that's one thing, but gaping plot holes, and inconsistencies? Inconsistencies to what? Other TMNT stories? I would love to know what you think is a plot hole. If you say Splinter learning martial arts from a book is a plot hole, don't even bother replying, that's not a plot hole.

This says it all dude. You're making my point for me. You do not have any understanding of what makes tmnt interesting, or different than the main stream comics. If you just want bang bang boom, pow, zap, well, good for you, but you're really missing out.

No, we just have different reasons for liking them. You are settled into the Mirage comics, I've only read a handful of them. Personally I get bored reading comic books. I just have different expectations when it comes to comic book adaptations into movies. I understand things need to be less important, and unfortunately less complicated especially when it's a major blockbuster.

And you don't care at all about Splinter, his backstory, or why he's not a great role model? You don't care, how his tutelage may have shaped, possibly warped or damaged his sheltered brood? That, doesn't matter?
All you want is boom, kaboom, kick flip, hi-ya? It doesn't matter what they fight for, just fight, right?

Why then, please tell me, are the turtles good? What about them makes them good guys?

Actually, no I do not care for Splinter. He's like the dad who forces his kids to be athletes in hopes they'll be pro athletes one day, and ends up messing the kid up for life, mentally.

I see how abusive he is with the Turtles, I honestly do not like him. BUT, I understand that they love him, and that he is their world. He's all they know. And I feel for them when he is in danger, but I care more about them fighting for the people who, if they saw the Turtles most likely would want them dead or captured and studied in a lab. I find it fascinating that they know the world will vilify them, crucify them, hate them, never understand them, yet they still want to save those very same people.

You are so naive. Wow. It's crazy you think that the people working on this movie gave a damn at all. They don't. They are looking to get paid man, that's all. They didn't try to make a good film, they just went to work, and did what they were told. No one is proud of this turd, please.

If they cared so little why wouldn't they just straight up take an old story rehash it, and just not change one thing? That seems like the easiest path to take. To think these people purposefully tried to sabotage the franchise because they don't care is ludicrous.

Let's try this again. The entire reason that the turtles were taught Nijitsu at all, was so that one day they could go, and get revenge against Saki, for Splinter, because of his crime against Yoshi. That is IT! What is so hard to understand? They had 1 job! That's it! Everything else is just happenstance. Things happen to them, they encounter all sorts of odd things, they grow older, they suffer, they ponder their existence. But things happen, and the turtles react. Again, they are not super heroes!

I understand that...jeez man...I'm not disqualifying any origin story. I'm disqualifying the notion that if they created a different origin it's automatically called "sh!t" and "unmotivated". I have the origin I like, you have the origin YOU like...This franchise has had many origins, we can debate which one is the best one until the end of time, because it's all based on preference. I'm simply arguing that the origin was fine in this movie, and they can drop it for the sequel, no need to bring it back up again, or re-do it to fit some narrative from the original comic.

Man, I just don't know...I feel like you're talking out of your ass most of the time. I get that you want to be right, or you feel you liked what you saw and identify with it somehow, and that guys like me are trying to take you down or something.

Look dude, When I read Bay got the rights for TMNT they said it would be a more adult TMNT movie. That's what I want. When it's all said and done, I want a no nonsense bloody, curse filled, brutal action movie with a great story. A gritty story. I was hoping badly that is what Bay would do. I remember reading it in 2010, I was on vacation, and my first thought was they did a pretty good job on the Texas Chainsaw Massacre remake, and they'll do this the right way. Well I was wrong, and I was disappointed. When I saw who the director was, I was disgusted. When Fox was cast I was angry. When I saw Fichtner was cast, I was even more angry (I hate him, and think he sucks at acting...or maybe it's just his face). I actually thought the Nick toon looked like sh!t too. The 1st trailer for the movie was horrible, I was so sad. But the 2nd trailer was better, and the featurette on Nick was good, and the snow scene was great. I decided to go in with an open mind because it's not the end of the world, and honestly the Nick toon is so great, it's almost ok if I never get that R rated TMNT movie. Anyway, I decided that if the movie was bad, it wasn't the end of the world, and what happened was I was entertained. Bottom line, there are more things I like about it than hate. It's not what I want, but it's better than TMNT III or Next Mutation, so I'm happy with it.

Maybe it's popularity stems from it's endless variation of themes and ideas. Maybe we all love something different.

I am saying, that the core of it all stems from the initial idea, and that, before making "wacky-punching-kung-fu-grip-arctic-monkey-battery-powered-Donatello" or "bong-smoking-transformer-12 inch-fire-fighter-Leonardo" that maybe we could get the original, without adding all the other conflicting stories to the mix. Save the gimmicks for the 4rth installment, when everyone's moved on to the Sonic Movie or Pokemon. Don't tart it up from the word go.

And no, we did not get that in 1990. That was a hybrid, pretty good, but not the greatest. If you'd read any Mirage, you'd know that.

I'm not against a good adaptation of the original comic. We're NEVER going to get it. So to hate things that aren't what we're never getting, is in my opinion the wrong way to look at things, and in THAT case YOU'RE missing out.

And just remember when you're making your little jabs at Bay's turtle designs those two guys who made that Mirage comic you love so dearly, sold the turtles out for money faster than you can even say "bong-smoking-transformer-12 inch-fire-fighter-Leonardo" Before Bay they were coming up with anything and everything to put on the Turtles so they could sell more toys. They're the ones to blame in all of this. If they would have just kept it going as the Mirage comic only, we probably would get that either Hard PG13 or R rated movie.

Bry

01-11-2015, 09:10 PM

Look at like Batman '89. They tweaked Bruce's past a little bit and had the Joker kill his parents, instead of a random homeless guy. Did it RUIN the movie? In my opinion no. Was it better than the true origin? In my opinion, no, but it did not make me sit there with a frowny face and my arms crossed saying "BOO HOO JOKER KILLED THE WAYNES WAAAAAAAAH MOVIE IS INVALID, IT MUST BE JOE CHILL THAT KILLED THE WAYNES!"

But a criminal still killed his parents and motivated him to fight for justice. That's still the exact same motivation as the original origin, only some details were altered. They didn't have Alfred find a crime-fighting guide in the garbage and decide to train him in martial arts because he was embarrassed by Bruce's dancing in Wayne Manor.

And just remember when you're making your little jabs at Bay's turtle designs those two guys who made that Mirage comic you love so dearly, sold the turtles out for money faster than you can even say "bong-smoking-transformer-12 inch-fire-fighter-Leonardo"

Please. Peter Laird kept the rights for 25 years, kept Mirage Studios afloat, and publishing, for most of that time, and after the "Turtlemania" period, kept a much closer lock on how the property was handled. They cashed in when their idea became a phenomenon, sure - but they kept working on the comics, telling stories by their original vision. If you're trying to say that two poor independent comic artists choosing to make some actual money from their idea is somehow "the same" as massively rich Hollywood producers cynically cashing in on a brand name with a by-the-numbers, disposable product? Man, that is nonsense.

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 09:14 PM

If you can sympathize with my frustration, why not just say so right away!
You just said you want the same thing most of us do, BUT we'll never get it, so to hell with it.

If fans had thought that, we would have had aliens, and blue door.

I think I've said this 100 times by now. You've had crazy long winded arguments with people you agree with. That's crazy!

And lastly, I'll tell you why they made the changes they made. It's all about intellectual property laws, simple as that. They changed it for the same reason playmates made hundreds of different characters with variations and themes etc.
they're securing and locking down IP so that no one can make a bootleg anything without getting sued. It's that simple.

By redesigning x, they now own exclusive rights to that x. They had rights to the turtles, but again, if their turtles look just like the old turtles, they can't truly claim ownership in the same way.

It's a little more detailed than that, but that's the jist of it.

And no, lots of people wanted to work on the film, but the ones who bought the rights did so, by their own admission, to make piles of money, on name brand recognition. There's a video I've posted twice, where you can hear it from the horses mouth.

They also, by their own admission begged Liebesman to do it. BEGGED!
Fox was the only one who begged onto the project. No one else.

All this to say, why argue with us, the supposed haters, if you're secretly agreeing with us?

Galactus

01-11-2015, 09:23 PM

The Turtles have many enemies who want to kill them because they stand for good. That is the age old recipe for comic books and comic book movies, and actually action movies in general. So yes there can be a villain who simply wants them dead so he or she can accomplish their evil plan.

The movie clear as day states that Shredder and the Foot have been trying to take over the city for years, that's when Splinter gives that AWFUL reason for why they're called the Foot. He says he trained them to fight for the people in the city. That is a very noble reason if you ask me. It's the same reason Superman fights for Metropolis, because he has the powers, and wants to use them for good. He, like this version of the Turtles, did not have some tragedy happen as a child to make him vow revenge, they just do the right thing. That's why I like Superman, that's why I don't have a problem with this reasoning for this TMNT movie.

Hey we agree that description on why they are called The Foot is awful.

I don't think being plain do gooders is something that really works for TMNT. Even the Fred Wolf show that had them acting super heroes 90% of the time still did the occasional episode or reference to them not strictly speaking not being crime fighters.

At most the turtles have always been quasi-crime fighters. Sure they occasionally lapse into that out of good nature or to test their skills but they don't patrol NYC or seek out crimes to foil. They really need a defined reason to get involved which is what they've always had when fighting Shredder and the Foot. The movie makers chose to discard it.

Almost other major comic book property has a reason for them to fight in general or a specific villain in particular. Even Superman you could argue has a tragic backstory with the destruction of his home world and in most cases the death of Pa Kent. The only major comic book property that I can think of that bucks this trend is The Fantastic Four and even then like TMNT they're not strictly super heroes either. They are a family of adventurers and explorers and the best stories with them have played up that angle.

To some degree I think the film makers understood that. We know from the section of script that was included in The Ultimate Visual History at least shows they put some thought into it but this was tossed out.

Where the turtles even crime fighters in the movie or where they just targeting the Foot? If they were trained to fight crime and or the Foot then why does Splinter get so angry at them actually doing that? How could the turtles regularly fight them without Splinter actually knowing?

Yes...they don't take those comics word for word, image for image, and put them on the screen they used them as inspiration, and fit them into their own version.

Well you haven't really answered my question about what other sources beyond the comics the Nolans drew from?

Also while they didn't recreate the comics panel for panel Batman Begins has a lot of scenes that come from the comics. Falling down the well and being the talk of fear after if from The Man Who Falls as is the Ducard trying to execute a criminal and Bruce stopping him. The device to summon a swarm of bats hidden in the heel of his boot to escape being trapped in building by the police is straight from Year One...I could go on.

This general audience you speak of, it's about 8 people on a message board. For the most part people went and saw this and just liked it. Some people can disconnect when they see a movie, and just enjoy it, instead of picking it apart the whole time. I know when I saw the movie, everyone I could hear and see was very excited when they left the theater, and it was all positive. I know just doing a search on twitter the weekend of he release there were a lot of people who simply thought it was a fun movie. So this "general audience" I think YOU think you know of, actually doesn't care .0000000000006% about the things you dislike, or want changed. Everyone here is putting WAY too much into the discussion of this movie, and maybe even TMNT overall. In the grand scheme of things, this movie, this franchise, it means relatively nothing.

Hmmm I thought you said a lot of people loved it and all lot of people hated it (or words to that affect) that hardly sounds like " 8 people on a message board" seems you're changing the parameters here.

Also it isn't just here or isn't just around the internet that a lot of people loathed the movie. If it was then they wouldn't have affected major changes to the movie continuously during it's development to please...or should I say appease the fans. If the audience reaction was so positive we'd be getting Leibesman back not a new director with promises of a different direction for a potential sequel.

Some people just like the turtles...I mean why is that such a bad thing? Does it really matter WHY you like them?

Not necessarily but if that's the only reason why a lot of people liked the movie then did they really like the movie or just the the fact that it existed?

The fact that even it's biggest boosters cop that it has a lot of major flaws kinda suggest that if not for this then they probably wouldn't have enjoyed the movie and the fact that a lot seem to naively hope for improvements with sequel suggests that it does matter.

Sadly I'd have to point out that this is the trap that people fell in with Bay's Transformers movies? That they'd get better and not worse?

Well you said this

Yeah, yeah you no what I meant.

At the risk of coming across like Cybercubed with the noses I can't help but think it looks weird. Anthropomorphic animals wearing clothes is almost always a whimsical idea. Mickey Mouse wears pants with no top, Donald Duck wears a top but no pants yet strangely wears a towel around his waist after a shower. :-?

It's not like the turtles actually need it as have no visible genitalia but the fact that all four turtles wear something specific to cover that area looks odd and I've always felt that it's to hide flaws in the designs based on their proportions but it looks silly and distracting to me especially Donatello's circuitry skirt.

If they must I'd prefer they all wear pants like Michelangelo and belts to carry their weapons...an accessory they actually do need.

Were you watching a bootleg? I did not have those issues.

Sadly the real thing.

Actually Nolan got beat up badly by "fanboys" and critics because he was trying to show as little as he could of Batman actually fighting people to show how he worked in the shadows and was fast and brutal...he was criticized heavily, for "not knowing how to film a fight scene" And Batman Begins, like TMNT, like Man of Steel, JUST made enough money for the studio to green light a sequel. If you watch Batman fight in the rest of the Trilogy his battles are very clear, and there are no quick cuts.

I wouldn't say Nolan was "beat up" over how he show the fight scenes. They were criticised but there's a difference between pointed out a flaw or two and feeling a movie fundamentally flawed.

No one came out of the any of those movies stating they were the worst things ever. That's a huge difference.

Uh that IS what he's doing. He wants to kill millions of people so he can own New York City. Sacks just wants to be even more rich.

But not because he's murderous but because he wants to have Sacks trick the government into a buying a cure.

Come to think about it wasn't that what Scarecrow thought they were doing in Batman Begins until Ra's Al Ghul pointed out that it was a dumb plan and he just wanted to kill people. While this wouldn't have been a good reason by any stretch it's a bit more believable than the idea that Sacks could fool a nation that he wasn't responsible for the virus infecting NYC.

It was good to the people who made it. They wouldn't purposely make things bad...that is just dumb to think that. They opened the movie with animation, they could have told any story they wanted. Obviously they liked this story the most.

I'm not so sure of that.

It's not like everyone involved in every movie loves what they are putting out there but usually no one speaks about that until way after they've stood to gain anything from it. We know that Bay ordered some major changes to the movie Leibesman originally directed I highly doubt he was glad and thought what did was better. In fact he even hints at that in this interview LINK (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/48820)

I wouldn't be surprised if years from now we get many of the people involved talking about how it was botched.

pennydreadful

01-11-2015, 09:32 PM

And I'm debating this topic because I think it's kind of silly to just claim the plot, writing and whatever else about the story, makes this movie terrible only because the past of Splinter and Shredder isn't what you want. I've said this so many times already. You are all blind, you won't just let the new movie create a new path for the Turtles. As long as the basics are there it's fine. Someone has used the "Bruce Wayne's parents never got killed" in comparison to Splinter and Shredder not having a past, and it's not the same thing, Shredder is still part of Splinter's past, he is one of the main reasons the Turtles exist, he tried to kill them, multiple times. He's there, there is motivation for them to fight.

Look at like Batman '89. They tweaked Bruce's past a little bit and had the Joker kill his parents, instead of a random homeless guy. Did it RUIN the movie? In my opinion no. Was it better than the true origin? In my opinion, no, but it did not make me sit there with a frowny face and my arms crossed saying "BOO HOO JOKER KILLED THE WAYNES WAAAAAAAAH MOVIE IS INVALID, IT MUST BE JOE CHILL THAT KILLED THE WAYNES!"

I'm sorry but this is just a ridiculous statement. The movie is so basic there isn't even enough time to jar you out of the narrative. If you want to say the story was too basic, that's one thing, but gaping plot holes, and inconsistencies? Inconsistencies to what? Other TMNT stories? I would love to know what you think is a plot hole. If you say Splinter learning martial arts from a book is a plot hole, don't even bother replying, that's not a plot hole.

I really feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing - because you want to be right, and you want your own opinions and preferences validated.

The fact that you're lapsing into all-caps to try to beat down dissenting opinions doesn't really make me feel motivated to engage in a thoughtful discussion.

Truthfully, I don't know if I can be bothered continuing this. You're arguing about something that, by your own admission, you don't care about... and I don't actually have to prove anything to you.

I have a headache, and I'm sure that the numerous others who are disagreeing with you will continue to point out the fallacies in your reasoning. We'll see whether I'm in the mood to continue this at a later point.

TrickOrTreater

01-11-2015, 09:34 PM

Commenter 42

01-11-2015, 10:05 PM

Because he's a troll. He's already admitted it previously.

I must have missed that. Thanks for the heads up. Yay for exercises in futility!

TrickOrTreater

01-11-2015, 10:06 PM

I must have missed that. Thanks for the heads up. Yay for exercises in futility!

Said he specifically joined the board to counteract all the negative posts on the movie, or some such nonsense.

Venom

01-11-2015, 10:09 PM

Hey, if you guys wanna debate origins and stuff, cool, but don't bring insults and crap into the mix.

Puke: Learn to debate better. I can see your pov in there, but you don't really elaborate on it well and end up reiterating the same thing, which becomes aggravating and lends credence to what Penny stated - arguing for the sake of it. Stop, comes across as pedantic.

C42: Cure wasn't being sarcastic. Puke has admitting to enjoying a troll now and again. You've been around here long enough to know our personalities. If you have a beef, there's an ignore button for a reason. If you choose not to ignore someone you feel is snarking on ya, or don't ask in a collected manner thru PM whether or not they were, then grow a thicker skin, ignore the post and move on.

You have a choice to move right past a post as much as you have one to click "quote" and type a response. Don't take the bait, in other words.

Now, I'm leaving this on here and going back to bed, so knock of the personal crap and talk like civil folks. We made this subsection for a reason, don't muck it up.

If you have beef with something I said, PM me, if not, goodnight.

I'm out.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-11-2015, 10:42 PM

Venom FTW. :tcool:

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-12-2015, 01:35 AM

Because he's a troll. He's already admitted it previously.

This is a flat out lie.

Said he specifically joined the board to counteract all the negative posts on the movie, or some such nonsense.

Another lie.

I'm only responding to your lies, however, your poor attempts at insults will be ignored, until you offer a comment of value.

I have never even THOUGHT about trolling anyone, let alone claimed to troll. I said in a thread that had many posts deleted, the only reason I started posting here was because of the insane hypocrisy that was happening regarding the sexual nature of the movie. Seeing someone post how degrading to women the trailers were, and they're sexualizing April (who is completely clothed, and wearing a jacket most of the movie) And Mikey is molesting April, then turn around and slut shame Megan Fox, and the same person then posted about how hot she thought the Turtles were in some concept art thread.

That was not trolling negative comments about the movie. I hadn't seen the movie, and I honestly didn't think it was going to be good at that point.

Bry - PM me if you want to debate Batman, I'll gladly do that away from the TMNT discussion.

Regarding the comment about Laird and the starving artists. They could have made money off TMNT without allowing it to be raped by a toy company for profit. The holier than thou attitude some have about this franchise (WHICH I LOVE BTW) is astonishing. The actual creators don't even hold it in such high regard.

Commenter 42 - I sympathize with wanting an adult, and serious take on the Turtles, yes, but I disagree with the constant whining and complaining about what we got. The constant bullying of anyone who says they like it. It's really just lame.

You said I had long winded arguments with people I agree with, and that's not true. Let me state this now. My argument is not the Mirage or '90s origin is any better or than the origin we were given in the '14 movie. I also don't think it's impossible to tell a TMNT story without the Yoshi/Saki past. My feeling is as long as their is conflict between Splinter and Shredder, the origin doesn't really matter unless it's really stupid, and far fetched, and I don't think '14's origin is stupid or far fetched. I think it's quick and simple. I also don't think the movies should be mostly about Splinter and his past, I think it should be all about the Turtles. If I had my dream movie I would kill Splinter, and have the revenge come from that.

I shouldn't have said "who cares" obviously we all do or we wouldn't waste so much time on the subject.

I think you're the one who likes Next Mutation, and that's fine, I think it's abysmal, and far worse than the '14 turtles. Here is why I end up responding to people here, it's because it's fascinating to me, that you would rather keep telling the same group of people how much you hate the movie than go to the sections on the board where you can talk about the things you like.

Galactus - They ARE crime fighters, because they fight the Foot...who are committing crimes...they fight the Purple Dragons who are also committing crimes. Please anyone show me where the Turtles are like "We're gonna kick these guys asses for the hell of it, screw the citizens of NYC". They may not preach that they are fighting for the people of NYC, but they are. After the whole Splinter/Shredder thing, they are for sure fighting crime, and also saving the world from Aliens. (this makes them SUPERHEROES)

Galactus if you want to discuss Batman please PM me, would love to talk to you about it.

Galactus, regarding my "8 people on the message board" comment, I mean, yes there are a lot of people who saw it and thought, eh that was dumb, but there are not a lot of people willing to dedicate time to fight with other people who like it. I see the same small group of people making the same degrading comments about the movie over and over, there is not a major campaign to condemn the movie, it did great dvd and digital sales which means people want to rewatch it, and own it.

The Razzies by the way, most of the time attack successful and popular movies.

Shredder IS murderous, if you're willing to kill literally MILLIONS of people to gain power over a city, you.are.murderous.

Nobody will convince me that a major movie studio purposefully makes things bad just for the hell of it. Making things for money is what everyone in Hollywood is doing it's weird that Bay and Co get's bulldozed for being that way. I don't like it, but at some point you just have to accept it's never going to change.

pennydreadful - I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm not beating down any dissenting opinions with the use of caps, it's for emphasis, and to show my opinion of some of the "arguments" on this board about the '14 movie. Some of the complaints are really so nit picky and some people claim little things they didn't like were SO bad that it knocked them out of their seats rendering them unconscious and unable to follow the plot.

Venom - I end up repeating because I am asked the same questions, or asked to elaborate on answers I've given. I hate being repetitive but I mean it's all here in text, and somehow I'm still put into the category of defending the movie, when all I'm really doing is defending the topic of the thread in most cases. For this thread however, I think we're certainly on topic since we're debating what needs to happen to improve the sequel.

Also, one last time for everyone I am not trolling, and have never said I like to troll, and I don't plan on ever trolling.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-12-2015, 01:48 AM

Here is something for anyone who thinks I can't look at both sides of this debate.

I've seen the movie a bunch of times now, I'd have to say, at first I thought Megan Fox did a serviceable job, but my goodness she is horrifyingly bad at acting. The constantly out of breath when she talks...the looks she gives when someone is talking, it looks like absolutely NOTHING is going on in her brain.

The movie is too short, and on top of being too short, it moves WAY too fast.

Not long enough, means not enough Turtles.

More fighting against the foot would have been nice.

I hated Shredder's armour.

I do not like when Shredder starts throwing the knives at the tower, and we get what seems like a 5 minute far off view of the same animation of him throwing the knives over and over and over.

Leo looks very odd when they are running to the elevator and they turn the corner and are confronted by hundreds of foot soldiers, the animation just seems weird, he's like hunched over or something. Then he's like 2 ft shorter than Donnie in the elevator for some reason.

Sacks literally tells his plan about 4 times in 10 minutes. I love when Leo says to him "for what" and he says "My god...say that again I want to hear your voice" but then he just willy nilly gives them his plan step by step. It would have made more sense for maybe Karai or even use Stockman in that instance to not know the overall plan, and have them ask, and have him explain it to them in front of the Turtles.

They are too big. There is something nice about the turtles from the 90 movie being so small. It makes it ok to have them sit around and talk a bit. These Turtles are just SO huge it's like when the Incredible Hulk is on screen in the Avengers, just so out of place.

One last nit picky thing I guess it's either bat editing or bad writing or both, April asks about project Renaissance, shows Sacks the picture of the Turtles, and then he says "......do you REALLY want to know about project Renaissance?" it just seemed so weird for him to ask that when she's practically begging him for answers.

Overall I enjoy the movie, I love the TMNT, so it is definitely easier to like it because of that reason alone. Pretty much anytime the Turtles are on the screen it's gold. I really think if they would have kept more things in the movie and drug it out a little more it would have made for a much better movie. IMO it's the 3rd best TMNT movie behind 1990 TMNT first then 2007's TMNT.

TrickOrTreater

01-12-2015, 01:59 AM

the only reason I started posting here was because of the insane hypocrisy that was happening regarding the sexual nature of the movie.

You brave, brave soul. Surely you will deliver us all from our sins.

Commenter 42

01-12-2015, 02:27 AM

.
"I think you're the one who likes Next Mutation, and that's fine, I think it's abysmal, and far worse than the '14 turtles. Here is why I end up responding to people here, it's because it's fascinating to me, that you would rather keep telling the same group of people how much you hate the movie than go to the sections on the board where you can talk about the things you like."

Nope, wrong guy dude. I can't get through 2 minutes of next mutation. Can't stand it, but I get you're responding to lots of people, all good.

I honestly feel that we still haven't gotten a proper TMNT film. That's my beef in general. I'm not the only one on repeat either.

I'm fascinated by the people that enjoyed it actually. I'd like to know what makes them tick.

Commenter 42

01-12-2015, 02:44 AM

The only reason TMNT 2 might not suck, would be a change in directors, and hopefully a fresh start. Maybe Green will bring a change for the better. Hard to say.

Leo656

01-12-2015, 07:26 AM

Wow, that was an ordeal.

Anyways. I think the people who made the movie really set themselves up for a fall by insisting they were making something "for the fans" and promising "everyone will love it." I mean, yes, you have to get people excited, but they'd have to have been completely out-of-touch to think that. Especially when they were saying that alllll the way back when they had every intention of Alien Turtles From Dimension X being the movie they were gonna make. Even THEN, they were insisting they were "keeping it real". Just like when guys at WB back in the 90s were insisting they were totally gonna make non-flying, black-rubber costume, no-cape "Superman" work as a movie, I knew for a fact these clowns had no clue. You only get to be THAT far out of touch by being willfully ignorant of the source material AND its fans.

If they had just said flat-out, "Look, this is a lark, like 'Smurfs' or 'Alvin & the Chipmunks', nobody really cares about this stuff, they just remember it from being kids, and that's the audience we want," people might have eased up on them. I mean, fans would have still been pissed, but people who actually cared about those other properties hated those movies, too, yet they still made money and have their fans, enough to get sequels, anyway. They're still bad movies, all, BUT, at least they were open from the get-go about the movies only existing as fluff.

Bry

01-12-2015, 07:58 AM

PM me if you want to debate Batman, I'll gladly do that away from the TMNT discussion.

Nah. I think I made my point.

Regarding the comment about Laird and the starving artists. They could have made money off TMNT without allowing it to be raped by a toy company for profit. The holier than thou attitude some have about this franchise (WHICH I LOVE BTW) is astonishing. The actual creators don't even hold it in such high regard.

"Raped"? Come on, that is a really dumb thing to say.

Listen - the odds of any comic artist making decent money, especially on their own self-published property, are practically a million to one. I'm not gonna hold it against any comic artist who chooses to "sell out" if it means they get to be financially stable - especially if they personally stick to their original vision and keep working at it, which Eastman and Laird did for years (and ARE STILL DOING even though they sold the property). If someone in a profession that typically doesn't pay well at all gets the chance to become financially independent and stable, they deserve to take it without judgment as far as I'm concerned. And trying to morally equate that to an already-mega-rich Hollywood producer cashing in on one more brand name is bananas.

Eastman and Laird both have enough money that they could walk away from the property outright and live comfortably for the rest of their lives. If they're still involved to some capacity, it's because they want to be. These are two guys who still have strong opinions about the style of Michelangelo's nunchucks, for chrissakes. You can't claim they don't care.

Anyways. I think the people who made the movie really set themselves up for a fall by insisting they were making something "for the fans" and promising "everyone will love it." I mean, yes, you have to get people excited, but they'd have to have been completely out-of-touch to think that. Especially when they were saying that alllll the way back when they had every intention of Alien Turtles From Dimension X being the movie they were gonna make. Even THEN, they were insisting they were "keeping it real".

Bingo.

If they had just come out and said "we're doing a whole new take on the Ninja Turtles and are largely ignoring the source material", the fans would have known full well to just tune out and forget about it. But they wanted those dollars, they lied through their teeth to get them, and then had the damn gall to act surprised and even insult the fans when they inevitably weren't happy about it. Sorry - they don't get to do that and then be exempt from criticism. They earned every bit of it.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-12-2015, 09:34 AM

Nah. I think I made my point.

Ehh no you didn't, but I feel hypocritical if I continue to talk about Batman in thread about the TMNT sequel.

"Raped"? Come on, that is a really dumb thing to say.

It's not. Unless you think I meant they had sex with the toys.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_coswj5DfcaI/TBKkUXjOmVI/AAAAAAAABGc/fYLdCVKHpKI/s1600/heavymetal-raph.jpg

Listen - the odds of any comic artist making decent money, especially on their own self-published property, are practically a million to one. I'm not gonna hold it against any comic artist who chooses to "sell out" if it means they get to be financially stable - especially if they personally stick to their original vision and keep working at it, which Eastman and Laird did for years (and ARE STILL DOING even though they sold the property). If someone in a profession that typically doesn't pay well at all gets the chance to become financially independent and stable, they deserve to take it without judgment as far as I'm concerned. And trying to morally equate that to an already-mega-rich Hollywood producer cashing in on one more brand name is bananas.

Eastman and Laird both have enough money that they could walk away from the property outright and live comfortably for the rest of their lives. If they're still involved to some capacity, it's because they want to be. These are two guys who still have strong opinions about the style of Michelangelo's nunchucks, for chrissakes. You can't claim they don't care.

I'm not disparaging them for "selling out" as you put it, what I'm saying is there seem to be people here who hold TMNT to a higher standard than the creators do. I think the writers over at Nick hold the series to a higher standard than Laird and Eastman do. Eastman sold his rights a very long time ago, but he still does things for TMNT and I'm not saying he doesn't like TMNT, but it helps him promote his own projects outside of TMNT. He would be dumb to ignore it all especially when it's going through a resurgence. Creatively you have to understand they both probably got sick of TMNT and wanted to move on. Unfortunately for them, they've never been able to match what they created in TMNT.

It's a business either way and I don't understand why Bay is vilified for wanting to make money, but E&L or anyone else for that matter aren't.

If they had just come out and said "we're doing a whole new take on the Ninja Turtles and are largely ignoring the source material", the fans would have known full well to just tune out and forget about it. But they wanted those dollars, they lied through their teeth to get them, and then had the damn gall to act surprised and even insult the fans when they inevitably weren't happy about it. Sorry - they don't get to do that and then be exempt from criticism. They earned every bit of it.

It’s probably amusing to a lot of people what the press puts out there and what they say people behind the scenes really want to do with the movie, but [Platinum Dunes'] main goal is actually to make the best possible ‘Turtles’ movie with respect to the fans and the core audience as possible. We’ve learned from movies like ‘The Avengers,’ which to me was a superhero movie so good to me personally that I practically wept [...] From everything that I’ve seen in the ['TMNT'] script and the development and everything they’ve asked my input on specifically, it’s gonna be an awesome, familiar, solid ‘Turtles’ movie. It’ll have everything that fans are gonna want and then some. - Kevin Eastman

What was so great for the intent for the movie that came out this year was that we wanted to strip it down to the very basics: the Turtles, Splinter, their origin story, the Shredder introduction of course, which was from the first Turtles comic book, and April, which was [originally] in Turtles too. So we wanted to make that the foundation on which we could build everything off from and keep the story simple enough and have fun with it and tell a good story. - Kevin Eastman

Yeah yeah, Bay is the devil, Bay and Co lied...Eastman is a Eagle Scout...ooooook.

Leo656

01-12-2015, 09:44 AM

I'm pretty sure nobody thinks Kevin Eastman is an "Eagle Scout". His track record as both a liar and a hypocrite is well-established and well-documented, and goes well beyond just TMNT into his other business ventures.

I'm also pretty sure most people are well aware just how complicit he is in the Platinum Dunes Cash Grab fiasco. It was His Name and His Word that made many people want to give this movie the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully those people learned a lesson, a lesson *I* was trying to teach for the longest time about how the guy generally doesn't care and isn't to be trusted, but hey, what do I know? I only cite precedent.

How bizarre it is to think that The Way Someone Has Always Behaved is also The Way They Will Behave Next Time, And The Time After That. Clearly that approach is full of holes. Uh huh.

Bry

01-12-2015, 10:22 AM

It's not. Unless you think I meant they had sex with the toys.

Equating/comparing making silly toys based on a comic book with rape, even jokingly, is a pretty stupid thing to do.

I'm not disparaging them for "selling out" as you put it, what I'm saying is there seem to be people here who hold TMNT to a higher standard than the creators do.

Sure, that's probably true. We're fans. It comes with the territory.

I don't necessarily think Eastman and Laird both hold it to an equally high standard, mind you. I respect them both as creators and for what they managed to do, and I did talk about them "together," but I think history has proven one has stricter ideas about what works than the other.

Laird's the guy who re-drew Michelangelo's nunchucks in those Eastman collaborations recently because they didn't look "right". That's megafan-level obsessive attention to detail.

It's a business either way and I don't understand why Bay is vilified for wanting to make money, but E&L or anyone else for that matter aren't.

I'm not vilifying Bay for wanting to make money; I'm vilifying him for doing it in the laziest, most cynical way possible. Hell, if he put in the kind of effort that Marvel Studios and their producers/creators put into Captain America: The Winter Soldier or Guardians of the Galaxy this year, I'd be singing his praises.

Yeah yeah, Bay is the devil, Bay and Co lied...Eastman is a Eagle Scout...ooooook.

Never claimed Eastman was an eagle scout either. I've said many times in the past that you can't take his statements at face value - he's on record as being very okay with damn near any variation of the property, especially if he's getting some money from it. And in this case, yeah, he was completely on board with Platinum Dunes, and it's totally fair to criticize him for what he said there. Laird was always the more "principled" of the two, if you want to call it that, and the one who's been more than happy to criticize the versions or ideas he doesn't like or approve of.

But no, I'm not saying either is beyond reproach - just that they were poor comic artists who I feel were perfectly entitled to cash in when they had the chance (which is incredibly rare in indie comics), and I will never hold that against them the way I'll hold this kind of shameless, insultingly-bad cash grab against a mega-rich producer who could easily do better if he bothered to care even one iota.

Leo656

01-12-2015, 10:28 AM

Yeah man. Contrary to popular belief you can totally "Sell Out' while still retaining some integrity and/or principles. Although, I'd argue that Eastman, by evidence, NEVER really gave a sh*t beyond a check, even in the beginning. I could be wrong but that's how it comes off.

I'm grateful to both Kevin and Peter for creating something I enjoy but I don't in turn deify them as some do. I have a strong feeling that I'd have little to talk about with either of them, were we acquainted. I'd probably enjoy Kevin as a "bar buddy" but that's as far as it goes for either of them. They really don't seem like "my kind of people."

pennydreadful

01-12-2015, 03:13 PM

IndigoErth

01-12-2015, 05:05 PM

EDITORIAL: A Commentary on Criticism
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/TwistedKingdom/news/?a=113356

Commenter 42

01-12-2015, 05:39 PM

Excellent article. Should be a sticky here.

TrickOrTreater

01-12-2015, 06:08 PM

EDITORIAL: A Commentary on Criticism
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/TwistedKingdom/news/?a=113356

Great article.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-12-2015, 06:20 PM

Once more unto the breach, dear friends...

Puke, I appreciate that you like the movie. That's fine. I'm not faulting anyone who likes it. But it's unfair to suggest that because you liked the movie, nobody else should have a problem with it.

Now, keeping in mind that this is just a movie - let's see if we can have a calm discussion regarding a point you raised yesterday.

For the hundredth time, I am not defending the movie. I'm really just voicing my displeasure with how rabid the people who DON'T like the movie are. However, I do have some counter points to your "plot holes":

Now, according to Macmillan Dictionary, "A plot hole, or plothole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that creates a paradox in the story that cannot be reconciled with any explanation. These include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline."
Citation: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/buzzword/entries/plothole.html

Yourdictionary.com defines a plothole as "A gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot."

I mention this only to avoid an argument about what errors in the movie constitute a plothole or inconsistency.

So - onto a few plotholes/inconsistencies in the movie, just off the top of my head:

- Shredder is The Bad Guy but doesn't kill Splinter or Raph.

He punches Splinter in the chest with spiked knuckles or gloves whatever you want to call it, then they throw a bomb into the lair. Yeah we could have had him slowly murder Splinter but would they allow that for PG-13? He defeated Raphael, but before that he says "The 4th cage is for you Raphael" because they want to get his blood. With your statement, Shredder should have just gone up and murdered all the turtles.

- Shredder and Sachs are after the mutagen that's in Splinter and the Turtles, but they don't capture Splinter or Raph, despite the fact that Splinter and Raph are both full of valuable mutagen-blood.

He tries to kill Splinter, and he is told Raphael is dead. Raphael smashes a wall into some foot soldiers, and the ceiling falls on him.

- Raph's shell is cracked, preventing him from going to help Leo during the truck/snow scene. Then five seconds later he's slamming into a humvee with his shell, thanks to the miracle of duct tape.

Congratulations, we have a definite plot hole!

- The Turtles are bulletproof but are vulnerable to tranquilizer darts when the plot demands. While one could argue that the bullets were hitting them in the shell/plastron and the tranq darts were hitting them in arms/legs, the argument then becomes: if the Foot are able to hit them in the arm/leg with a tranq gun, why not with an assault rifle?

Bulletproof and knife proof are two different things. You can still cut through Kevlar because they absorb the bullet, they don't deflect the bullet. In this case their skin is bullet proof, but I'm speaking on how bullet proof vests work, the bullet is caught in the vest, a knife, or needle is formed much differently than a bullet so they could conceivably cut through something that's bullet proof. In the movie the bullets absorb into Raphael and he "bounces" them off, I have been on record saying I do not like this, but it's not a plot hole. They have never established the bullets can't bounce off them. But in the previous statement, it is established Raph is too injured to help Leo, but he's ok to be launched into a Hummer.

- April gets fired from her job as a reporter because nobody believes her story about the Turtles... yet the whole time she has photos of them on her phone. And as this took place at a time in the story when she had not befriended the Turtles yet, it made no sense for her to not show her boss the proof that the Turtles existed.

She has one blurry photo. She had a lot prepared to show her boss, but the actual photo she ends up showing Sacks is 4 blurry blobs. You could either say she wasn't given the opportunity to show her boss, or it wasn't solid enough proof. Sacks believes it because she tells him it's his test turtles.

- Inconsistencies with the Turtles' strength. One minute they're superhumanly strong enough to send a metal shipping crates flying. The next they have trouble lifting a gate. Another minute one can jump literally jump through the metal roof of a van, but 30 seconds later he can't punch through a slab of glass. Another minute they can obliterate a Humvee by jumping at it, but can't even budge a guy in a metal suit of armor... because reasons.

I believe the shipping crate is launched using Donnie's spring loaded staff, but wasn't shown in the movie, but in the trailers it's shown. The Turtles are not in a slab of glass. I'm sure they are in some thick form of Plexiglass or something like that. Raph busts through the side of a van, which is not thick metal. He also runs into the glass one time before Shredder pulls his attention away. It's not like he tried for hours and couldn't do it.

Raph doesn't jump at the hummer, he has been shooting down a mountain, and is launched into the hummer. And he actually kicks Shredder right off the roof at the end.

If you really want to go more in-depth, there are a few sites that discuss other errors in the film in more detail:
http://movieplotholes.com/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles.html
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1291150/goofs
http://100thingsilearned.com/view/1749/

Now again - if those things don't bother you, that's fine. But saying that there were no plot holes or inconsistencies simply isn't true.

I think he's confusing you with me - I'm the Next Mutation fan, dude. :twink:

I never said there are none, if you look something from a few posts ago, I listed a bunch of things I didn't like. This movie is not as bad as everyone is making it out to be. It's almost like the people who hate it so much are taking it personally. It's not the movie I would have made, or the movie I wanted, but for what I was given, I enjoyed it, and I've rewatched it a bunch of times, and still enjoy it. I prefer the 1990 movie, and the Nick cartoon over all else.

pennydreadful

01-12-2015, 06:57 PM

Well, that response was... pretty much what I expected.

Look, Puke - I could rebutt each one of your points... but it'd really just be devolving the conversation into semantics, and frankly I don't see the point.

You specifically said:
I'm sorry but this is just a ridiculous statement. The movie is so basic there isn't even enough time to jar you out of the narrative. If you want to say the story was too basic, that's one thing, but gaping plot holes, and inconsistencies? Inconsistencies to what? Other TMNT stories? I would love to know what you think is a plot hole. If you say Splinter learning martial arts from a book is a plot hole, don't even bother replying, that's not a plot hole.

A logical person can infer from that statement that you didn't believe there were any plot holes. Listing things you dislike about a movie is not the same thing.

You asked for plot holes and inconsistencies - I pointed 'em out. If you don't consider some of them to be plot holes, that's fine. I linked to three other sites which mentioned several of the plot holes I did, so for all intents and purposes, it's not unfair to say that the things I mentioned are considered by people other than myself to in fact, be plot holes. We'll leave it at that.

I'm not really sure why you've taken it upon yourself to defend the movie against Internet Haters. You're... not defending it, but you're slamming other people for not liking it - dismissing every criticism they bring up as "whining". I just don't understand what you're trying to accomplish other than fighting for the sake of fighting. People have the right to dislike something and discuss why they don't like it. That's what the board is for.

Calling people "whiners" or "haters" or "crybabies" for disliking the movie adds about as much value to the conversation as referring to people who did like the movie as "dickriders" or "Baytards". And that's the kind of thing that gets conversations heated.

What I find frustrating about engaging in discussion with you regarding the topic of the movie is that every time someone proves you wrong in this thread, you then jump track and go onto something else. As I said, you seem to be arguing for the sake of it - like you're here to punish people for saying negative things about the movie on the internet. You jack-knife from argument to argument, changing direction erratically like a shoal of Argument Fish being followed by a Logic Shark. Sure, you're going to tire people out that way - but it still won't make people stop talking about disliking the movie.

Powder

01-12-2015, 07:21 PM

Penny nailed it. & what is that gif supposed to convey as a "counter point"? A threat of violence? :ohwell:

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-12-2015, 07:40 PM

:tlol::tthumbsu:

I've honestly tried to avoid the back-and-forth because most of it is TL;DR, but this sentence leaped out at me and I had to laugh...

You jack-knife from argument to argument, changing direction erratically like a shoal of Argument Fish being followed by a Logic Shark.

pennydreadful

01-12-2015, 08:05 PM

The wily Logic Shark is an elusive beastie rarely found in these waters. :lol:

TrickOrTreater

01-12-2015, 09:23 PM

I'm really just voicing my displeasure with how rabid the people who DON'T like the movie are.

Praise He who will show us the error of our ways.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-12-2015, 09:29 PM

Well, that response was... pretty much what I expected.

Look, Puke - I could rebutt each one of your points... but it'd really just be devolving the conversation into semantics, and frankly I don't see the point.

You specifically said:

A logical person can infer from that statement that you didn't believe there were any plot holes. Listing things you dislike about a movie is not the same thing.

You asked for plot holes and inconsistencies - I pointed 'em out. If you don't consider some of them to be plot holes, that's fine. I linked to three other sites which mentioned several of the plot holes I did, so for all intents and purposes, it's not unfair to say that the things I mentioned are considered by people other than myself to in fact, be plot holes. We'll leave it at that.

I'm not really sure why you've taken it upon yourself to defend the movie against Internet Haters. You're... not defending it, but you're slamming other people for not liking it - dismissing every criticism they bring up as "whining". I just don't understand what you're trying to accomplish other than fighting for the sake of fighting. People have the right to dislike something and discuss why they don't like it. That's what the board is for.

Calling people "whiners" or "haters" or "crybabies" for disliking the movie adds about as much value to the conversation as referring to people who did like the movie as "dickriders" or "Baytards". And that's the kind of thing that gets conversations heated.

What I find frustrating about engaging in discussion with you regarding the topic of the movie is that every time someone proves you wrong in this thread, you then jump track and go onto something else. As I said, you seem to be arguing for the sake of it - like you're here to punish people for saying negative things about the movie on the internet. You jack-knife from argument to argument, changing direction erratically like a shoal of Argument Fish being followed by a Logic Shark. Sure, you're going to tire people out that way - but it still won't make people stop talking about disliking the movie.

You said "gaping plot holes and inconsistencies" and offered no examples. I wanted to know such "gaping" plot holes. That description leads one to believe the plot hole is so big the movie makes no sense. You provided a list of things, and only one was credible. I looked at the links you provided, there were no plotholes, maybe some errors, and continuity errors, which are in EVERY movie. The very best movies have mistakes in them.

I never said there were no plot holes or inconsistencies. Never. I also stay with the same opinions, I am not changing directions at all. I have been accused of repeating myself too much a few pages back. I have to keep repeating myself because I keep being told "you defend the movie against people who hate it" which is not what I'm doing for the 199th time. I am not going to change your mind, the same way you are not going to change someone's mind who likes it. If someone has proven me wrong or called me out on something, like when I said "who cares" I've owned up to it. If someone presents me with a "gaping plot hole" then I'll say yeah sure that's a gaping plot hole. To say that I am proven wrong (which has not happened because how do you prove an opinion wrong?) and change directions is a lie. If you offer an even semi intelligent response to something I've said, I have no problem replying, and it's my right to reply.

Here are the thoughts I've expressed in this thread:

1990's Splinter learning martial arts in a cage as a normal rat by simply watching is no better than 2014's Splinter being inspired to learn martial arts from an instruction manual.

I've stated that both the 1990 movie origin, and 2014 origins are dumb.

I've posted a list of things I hated about the 2014 movie.

I've expressed my fascination with the same group of people who infiltrate threads about the sequel with hatred for the 2014 movie.

I've expressed my dislike of those kind of posts.

I've rebutted all but one "gaping plotholes" because one of them was a continuity error.

I also do not attack or call anyone names. Unlike TrickOrTreater who antagonizes anyone who does not share the same view point as him, by attempting to be insulting, also while offering absolutely nothing to the thread.

There is something odd about people who cannot stop talking about things they hate. It's like people who follow celebrities on twitter only to tweet hatred at them. I just do not understand it.

TrickOrTreater

01-12-2015, 09:31 PM

There is something odd about people who cannot stop talking about things they hate.

Mmmm delicious irony.

Jester

01-12-2015, 09:44 PM

http://www.underthegunreview.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/tumblr_mmq6vfePtc1qgcra2o1_500.gif

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-12-2015, 09:45 PM

Mmmm delicious irony.

It's not irony. I'm not showing up in a thread, voicing my displeasure despite the topic being about something else. My "reason for arguing" has been asked and I've voiced my displeasure in this thread many times because I keep being told that I'm defending the movie. Which I am not doing.

Let me know when I show up in a thread of lets say, fan art, and start telling everyone why I dislike The Next Mutation, and you'll get a full apology from me.

pennydreadful

01-12-2015, 09:48 PM

TrickOrTreater

01-12-2015, 09:49 PM

It's not irony. I'm not showing up in a thread, voicing my displeasure despite the topic being about something else.

http://i.imgur.com/LgQRAIw.gif?1

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-12-2015, 09:58 PM

He has an amazing ability to respond to what people have said without actually comprehending what was said, doesn't he?

Taking shots at the intelligence of those who disagree with you notwithstanding, Puke - I ask again: what are you trying to accomplish? To save people from the folly of having an opinion on the internet?

You have a right to an opinion - so do we. We're expressing it. The thing is, we're talking about things we dislike about the movie. You've shown up to the party because you don't like people talking about things they don't like, and you're using the movie as a source of argument.

You're hellbent on being right so you can justify your crusade as the Opinion Police - and it doesn't matter what other people say to you, or how many citations they include in their arguments... because it's not the reasoning that's being used which is flawed. It's your attitude.

Sadly, I sense a mod clean-up pending, which I suppose was inevitable really. god forbid anybody have a calm, lucid discussion about this movie. :trolleye:

Talk about not being able to comprehend...I am not being hell bent on being right. If you say something I disagree on, I'll have a discussion with you, but I'm not trying to say I'm right, you're right or anyone else is right. Your opinion is yours you own it. If you want to debate facts like what is a plot hole, let's debate that.

I'm not trying to accomplish anything, I'm having a discussion. I've stated this literally 20 times now, I do not care if you like or don't like the movie. But here is a simple example of a typical thread in this section.

Topic - Who should play Casey Jones
Person A - CM Punk
Person B - Chris Evans
Person C - This movie sucks, the turtles are 8 ft tall so Casey Jones will be roided out and have to be cgi, and Bay is the devil, and the plot sucks and there are gaping plot holes, and Bay just wanted to make money while purposefully ruining TMNT.

Person C is who I have a problem with. There are about 8 Person C's who post in this section, and I have the right to call them out on it if I want.

This particular thread is about how to make the sequel better than the original, so people who disliked the movie should be posting here, they should voice their displeasure with the movie. Let's have a discussion about that, and offer different ideas and takes on what the sequel should be. But let's keep that in these types of threads, not threads for the official movie gifs.

TrickOrTreater - It's very easy to take things out of context. You once again offer nothing of value.

IndigoErth

01-12-2015, 10:06 PM

TrickOrTreater

01-12-2015, 10:08 PM

It's very easy to take things out of context.

It's equally ridiculous and hilarious in context as out.

Redeemer

01-12-2015, 10:11 PM

http://www.underthegunreview.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/tumblr_mmq6vfePtc1qgcra2o1_500.gif

lol exactly!!!!!!!

pennydreadful

01-12-2015, 10:29 PM

I had actually typed a longer response to this but y'know what? I'm done with it for the day - this has grown tiresomely repetitive and frankly, it isn't very entertaining. So the Logic Shark and I are gonna take a break and grab a slice.

https://i.imgflip.com/1r3gn.gif

The last contribution I'm making for now is this:

Person C - This movie sucks, the turtles are 8 ft tall so Casey Jones will be roided out and have to be cgi, and Bay is the devil, and the plot sucks and there are gaping plot holes, and Bay just wanted to make money while purposefully ruining TMNT.

Person C is who I have a problem with. There are about 8 Person C's who post in this section, and I have the right to call them out on it if I want.

It's up to the mods to deal with Person C - not you. Report their comments, or put them on ignore, and move on. All you are doing is creating arguments.

Panda_Kahn_fan

01-12-2015, 10:51 PM

Wow this thread has grown sine I last posted!

Well, I agree with points on both sides, and disagree with points on both sides. But as to my earlier comments, I still love the IDW and Nick origins, and still despise the Mirage and 2kids origin. But in either case, the 'learning from a book' angle was a poor choice for this movie.

Panda_Kahn_fan

01-12-2015, 11:15 PM

I'm beginning to think you don't actually get TMNT. This argument is ridiculous.

That is EXACTLY what they were doing. IT WAS A PARODY!!!!!!

Wow. If you're not in on that joke, I wonder what other aspects of TMNT are lost on you.

I 'get' that it started as a parody, I also 'get' that many fans, including many on here, don't see it that away, and want it to be something more than what it started as. I like IDW and Nick because they moved away from the Daredevil elements of the origin, kept what was important (the fact it was an accident with the ooze), and worked the Hamato Yoshi is Splinter angle into the story. It's two origins that stand on thier own.

Commenter 42

01-13-2015, 12:38 AM

I 'get' that it started as a parody, I also 'get' that many fans, including many on here, don't see it that away, and want it to be something more than what it started as. I like IDW and Nick because they moved away from the Daredevil elements of the origin, kept what was important (the fact it was an accident with the ooze), and worked the Hamato Yoshi is Splinter angle into the story. It's two origins that stand on thier own.

That's great. I prefer the Mirage origin, and think that reincarnation is a terribly overused plot device that's both cliche and boring. Candy Kappa made the point pages ago, that it has many problems of it's own (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1404840&postcount=151).

But this is what I meant, also pages ago, that everyone has a different part of TMNT that they consider sacrosanct, and with so many versions branching from the original, there's plenty of room to disagree.

Also, Puke, you're as much a person C as anyone here. I may be caterwauling against the abomination they call a movie, but you're, what? Policing my caterwauling? Seriously? Why?

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-13-2015, 08:39 AM

Well... to be fair Person A, B, and D (yes I'm adding one) have the right, and I would hope the ability, to ignore C's statement and carry on with the/a topic discussion. If D comes along and decides to make C's statement into a discussion (that more than likely will turn into an argument) then C and D are no better than each other really under that thread topic.

You're right, and I try and only do it once the thread has been derailed by Person C.

In this thread though, I think it's totally fine to bash the movie, the topic is about making the sequel better than the first one.

It's up to the mods to deal with Person C - not you. Report their comments, or put them on ignore, and move on. All you are doing is creating arguments.

I usually say something once the thread has been overrun by arguments of is it good or bad. I've tried, and others have tried to stay on topic, but the post is buried under people bashing each other for liking or not liking the movie in threads that have no reason to be discussing it.

And this will probably get me in trouble, but I don't really see any Mods doing anything. There was like two major purges a few weeks ago, and the thread turned right back into what they deleted.

Also, Puke, you're as much a person C as anyone here. I may be caterwauling against the abomination they call a movie, but you're, what? Policing my caterwauling? Seriously? Why? I've admitted in other threads that have been derailed that I wasn't helping the thread by mixing it up with the people who are off topic, but like I already said I try and do that once the topic is lost.

And I'm not policing your caterwauling. I'm not a mod, I'm not trying to be a mod, but I'm not telling you that you can't do anything. I'm simply questioning the need for it. The few of you that do this over and over, it's like you travel in packs the same 3 or 4 people show up to trash one person's opinion and derail the thread.

This is the only message board I go to, so maybe I am this way because you all are used to it at this point, and I just see it as counter productive. Maybe I'll just get used to it and accept it and have my comments, and other's comments just lost in the debris of opinion fights.

Leo656

01-13-2015, 09:00 AM

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-13-2015, 09:14 AM

Dirty secret time: Nobody here genuinely cares when threads go off-topic. People around here just like to talk and blow off steam.

Literally the only time anyone cries about things going off-topic, is when they're trying and failing to steer the direction of the conversation. Otherwise, people just talk and things go back to "normal" when they feel like it. It's been that way forever. You or anyone else ain't changing it.

As I've said many times, though, the people who plead to keep things on-topic aren't genuinely interested in that. I mean, sometimes, but usually, it's more a case of, "Nobody agrees with me, so everybody stop talking." Doesn't work and it's super annoying, even more annoying than people going off-topic in the first place.

Just let people talk themselves out, guy. Nobody likes a "crusader". You're creating more stress for yourself, and others by extension.

Well a TMNT message board causes me 0 stress. I noticed in a few replies to me, people seem to think I'm angry or attacking. I'm calmly stating my thoughts. Until a few weeks before this movie was released I made zero comments here, and only looked at the TMNT art section. If this place started stressing me out, I'd really have to look at myself, and I'd stop commenting or reading things here. I guess I'll just have to adjust to the culture here, it just seems counter productive.

And I'm not crusading, I'm simply questioning the reasons for doing it. For example the Bebop & Rocksteady thread, I made a comment on the first page, then didn't come here for weeks and went to see what's going on with B&R and it was impossible to find any posts about B&R it was like 8 pages of arguments on whether the movie is good or bad...so I made some comments as well. But if that's fine with everyone here, then I'll stop, and eventually I'll just stop coming here. I'm sure TrickOrTreater just crapped his diaper in excitement of the mere thought of me never posting again.

Commenter 42

01-13-2015, 09:39 AM

I'm simply questioning the need for it.

This is the crux of the argument, truly. Is there a need to promote, on behalf of a brand, to serve it's agenda, without pay? should, I the consumer, who has his own set of ideals, and real life obligations, spend any amount of time joining in the collaborative support for a brand that I no longer identify with, but once did?

The truth of it all, is that, in part, I once agreed with the ideology that was a part of the TMNT mythos. To me, it's important that the value of the lessons inherent to that idea not be lost. I refuse to stand by while the half assed regurgitation of my youth is shoved upon the new generation in a way that misrepresents itself in all respects. I loathe more than just this film; I condemn it's very existence, specifically because it is symptomatic of the new world around us.

Times change. Cavorting alongside a Brand used to be known as selling out. It used to be that as a generation, the youth would stand back and critique the media, asking what it was the "man" was shoving down the throats of youth. Those days have come to an end.

Now, you're entirely correct in recognizing that it's dwindled to a few disruptors, who can't even agree amongst themselves. Eventually we will be gone, and there will be no one left. My guess is, that would make you very happy. The real question is why.

I know what I want, or what my goal is. Do you? If they haven't paid you, to work on their behalf, which i'm sure they haven't, then why do you spend anytime at all arguing?

Let's really investigate this thread, shall we? Here, we have a forum of users who are generally in-favor of more TMNT product. Composed of longtime consumers, each and everyone here has spent an above average dollar amount on the brand. This thread now asks the question "what would you like to see in a sequel?" Here now, we can argue long and hard over what might make the best followup, to a film, that performed only slightly better than expected.

So, we, the top tier consumer, are advocating for what we are likely to buy. We all are spending our time, not unlike a focus group, to try and vocalize, what would make us happy, and as a result, what will give the studio the best return on their dollar. The return, is of course, our dollar.

Just to be clear, in threads like this, we are actually working for free, to tell someone else, how to best take our money.

The Pro group, are working just as hard, to convince others, that no matter what they make, we should spend our money. Further more, they have also said that we should actually be happy that we had the opportunity at all, to spend our money. Yes, we are just so lucky that they made anything in the first place, because it keeps the brand alive.

As an aside, did you know that Michael Bay just bought a private jet, based entirely on his take from the sales of Trandformers 4?

But I digress...

If they intend on making us pay them to work for them, then I'm sure as hell not going to pay them to work for them to create something I didn't want in the first place. just to be part of the TMNT tribe.

It's a big joke my man. A big cruel joke.

My question to you, is simple; do you know how much money it takes to buy a jet? (http://www.jamesedition.com/jets)

Half the folks here work for minimum wage. With the little bank they have, they don't deserve to have a billionaire flip em the bird.

Leo656

01-13-2015, 10:03 AM

Sh*t, I know that's why I didn't go see it in theaters. I can't afford to waste my money like that. There's cats here who said they seen it like six times. Firstly, who sh*ts enough gold bricks to go see any movie six times at theater prices? And secondly, what goddamn movie is even worth that kind of investment? Even German people who thought "Schindler's List" was a comedy didn't go see it six friggin' times. It's literally none of my business where anyone gets their money or how they spend it, but for what it costs one person to go to the movies six times in about a month, that's like three times my phone bill. I can't help but question people's priorities at that point. Nobody should like Anything that much, but especially not movies like this one.

I could see it being akin to a drunken one-night stand that you don't exactly regret but aren't in a hurry to brag about, but that's about it. I work a little too hard for my money to just fork it over in exchange for anything with a brand name sticker on it. I got more bills than duckets, yo, they gotta work to win me over. I know I'm not alone as far as that goes.

Candy Kappa

01-13-2015, 10:41 AM

I wonder if the sequel will explain how Sacks got an entire mountain moved right next to New York City.

Talk about being rich. :lol:

Leo656

01-13-2015, 10:44 AM

To quote Pat Patterson... "That sh*ts was completely banana."

Commenter 42

01-13-2015, 10:57 AM

I wonder if the sequel will explain how Sacks got an entire mountain moved right next to New York City.

Talk about being rich. :lol:

TMNT report card

Geography F
Chemistry D
Physics F
Biology F
History F

Am I missing anything?

Leo656

01-13-2015, 11:00 AM

Creative Writing: "D-; See Me After Class."

Bry

01-13-2015, 11:50 AM

You're right, and I try and only do it once the thread has been derailed by Person C.

And I'm not crusading, I'm simply questioning the reasons for doing it.

I'm not a mod, I'm not trying to be a mod, but I'm not telling you that you can't do anything. I'm simply questioning the need for it.

Like... you do understand that you're the one who derailed this thread, right?

Whether or not you like the conversation or see the "point" behind it, it involves multiple people and is something happening naturally. Someone sticking their wagging finger in the middle of it just to disrupt it doesn't help a damned thing. You're not teaching us a "lesson". You're not being a hero. You're just disrupting the natural flow and scolding people for having a discussion you personally don't like. That's not your job. Why not just stay out of it instead of picking one more fight? IE, the absolute last thing we need around here right now?

Seriously - I'd wager that a large number of the actual forum-closing, ban-causing major arguments around here happen because someone couldn't just let a conversation run its course naturally and felt the need to start pointing and wagging fingers at people because they couldn't handle what was being said.

I wonder if the sequel will explain how Sacks got an entire mountain moved right next to New York City.

Talk about being rich. :lol:

Oh, here's an idea! The movie had so many logic and plot inconsistencies that it seemed like it was written by a kindergartner, right? So the sequel opens with the very end of the last movie... then fades out to reveal Shadow Jones, telling the Turtles, Splinter, April and Casey (all looking like we'd know them) her version of how the Turtles came to be. The Turtles and Splinter wince a bit, non-Megan Fox April tells her "that's... very creative, Shadow" and pats her on the head. A confused Casey asks why he wasn't in the story. And then maybe an actual good movie happens?

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-13-2015, 02:59 PM

This is the crux of the argument, truly. Is there a need to promote, on behalf of a brand, to serve it's agenda, without pay? should, I the consumer, who has his own set of ideals, and real life obligations, spend any amount of time joining in the collaborative support for a brand that I no longer identify with, but once did?

The truth of it all, is that, in part, I once agreed with the ideology that was a part of the TMNT mythos. To me, it's important that the value of the lessons inherent to that idea not be lost. I refuse to stand by while the half assed regurgitation of my youth is shoved upon the new generation in a way that misrepresents itself in all respects. I loathe more than just this film; I condemn it's very existence, specifically because it is symptomatic of the new world around us.

Times change. Cavorting alongside a Brand used to be known as selling out. It used to be that as a generation, the youth would stand back and critique the media, asking what it was the "man" was shoving down the throats of youth. Those days have come to an end.

Now, you're entirely correct in recognizing that it's dwindled to a few disruptors, who can't even agree amongst themselves. Eventually we will be gone, and there will be no one left. My guess is, that would make you very happy. The real question is why.

I know what I want, or what my goal is. Do you? If they haven't paid you, to work on their behalf, which i'm sure they haven't, then why do you spend anytime at all arguing?

Let's really investigate this thread, shall we? Here, we have a forum of users who are generally in-favor of more TMNT product. Composed of longtime consumers, each and everyone here has spent an above average dollar amount on the brand. This thread now asks the question "what would you like to see in a sequel?" Here now, we can argue long and hard over what might make the best followup, to a film, that performed only slightly better than expected.

So, we, the top tier consumer, are advocating for what we are likely to buy. We all are spending our time, not unlike a focus group, to try and vocalize, what would make us happy, and as a result, what will give the studio the best return on their dollar. The return, is of course, our dollar.

Just to be clear, in threads like this, we are actually working for free, to tell someone else, how to best take our money.

The Pro group, are working just as hard, to convince others, that no matter what they make, we should spend our money. Further more, they have also said that we should actually be happy that we had the opportunity at all, to spend our money. Yes, we are just so lucky that they made anything in the first place, because it keeps the brand alive.

As an aside, did you know that Michael Bay just bought a private jet, based entirely on his take from the sales of Trandformers 4?

But I digress...

If they intend on making us pay them to work for them, then I'm sure as hell not going to pay them to work for them to create something I didn't want in the first place. just to be part of the TMNT tribe.

It's a big joke my man. A big cruel joke.

My question to you, is simple; do you know how much money it takes to buy a jet? (http://www.jamesedition.com/jets)

Half the folks here work for minimum wage. With the little bank they have, they don't deserve to have a billionaire flip em the bird.

Wow...ok...so you took something I said and removed my context, and made up your own context and went on a rant.

I said I'm questioning the need for the same pack of hate wolves to blow through a thread letting us know you still hate the movie. That's all. Like what will it take for you to feel like you've gotten your point across?

I can't take you seriously if you are that upset over an adaptation of a fairy tale. TMNT is a fairy tale. Bottom line.

There are rich people who buy much worse things than private jets. Buying their way into our politician's pockets is something I'm more worried about.

I also don't give a sh!t about Transformers, to me, they are mindless popcorn flicks, that are fun to watch on the big screen with big loud speakers. I am allowed to go and spend my money on silly things like silly movies all I want, and if I'm lucky I'll avoid being shamed for liking mindless entertainment by internet snoots.

Sh*t, I know that's why I didn't go see it in theaters. I can't afford to waste my money like that. There's cats here who said they seen it like six times. Firstly, who sh*ts enough gold bricks to go see any movie six times at theater prices? And secondly, what goddamn movie is even worth that kind of investment? Even German people who thought "Schindler's List" was a comedy didn't go see it six friggin' times. It's literally none of my business where anyone gets their money or how they spend it, but for what it costs one person to go to the movies six times in about a month, that's like three times my phone bill. I can't help but question people's priorities at that point. Nobody should like Anything that much, but especially not movies like this one.

I could see it being akin to a drunken one-night stand that you don't exactly regret but aren't in a hurry to brag about, but that's about it. I work a little too hard for my money to just fork it over in exchange for anything with a brand name sticker on it. I got more bills than duckets, yo, they gotta work to win me over. I know I'm not alone as far as that goes.

Cool.

Like... you do understand that you're the one who derailed this thread, right?

Whether or not you like the conversation or see the "point" behind it, it involves multiple people and is something happening naturally. Someone sticking their wagging finger in the middle of it just to disrupt it doesn't help a damned thing. You're not teaching us a "lesson". You're not being a hero. You're just disrupting the natural flow and scolding people for having a discussion you personally don't like. That's not your job. Why not just stay out of it instead of picking one more fight? IE, the absolute last thing we need around here right now?

Seriously - I'd wager that a large number of the actual forum-closing, ban-causing major arguments around here happen because someone couldn't just let a conversation run its course naturally and felt the need to start pointing and wagging fingers at people because they couldn't handle what was being said.

Actually, go back to page 2, and 3 and you'll see I posted ON TOPIC, amidst the uproar over some children's website attributing the 2014 origin story as THE origin for the Turtles. Then you, and Galactus, pennydreadful, and Commenter all picked things from my on topic post, and it started from there. I reply to anyone who wants to disagree or agree.

Bry

01-13-2015, 03:34 PM

So basically, pennydreadful settled this whole dumb mess back on pages 9 and 11:

I really feel like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing - because you want to be right, and you want your own opinions and preferences validated.
What I find frustrating about engaging in discussion with you regarding the topic of the movie is that every time someone proves you wrong in this thread, you then jump track and go onto something else. As I said, you seem to be arguing for the sake of it - like you're here to punish people for saying negative things about the movie on the internet. You jack-knife from argument to argument, changing direction erratically like a shoal of Argument Fish being followed by a Logic Shark. Sure, you're going to tire people out that way - but it still won't make people stop talking about disliking the movie.

Welp. Peace out, homie.

pennydreadful

01-13-2015, 03:53 PM

http://31.media.tumblr.com/fb8fd97da754d03d9b6dc9276f3304f0/tumblr_munagqjiMO1qir88ko1_500.gif

And this is why I elected to nip out for a slice of pizza.

Puke's in it for distance and irritation. Just stick him on ignore and don't bother responding - he's like a dog chasing his own tail at this point.

So is anybody else wondering whether any snippets of the Blue Door script are going to make it into the sequel story? Especially as pertains to Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady?

The Boston Ninja Turtle

01-13-2015, 04:03 PM

i know it wont happen but id like a touch on shredder

the line "we upgraded your armor" bugs me like no tomorrow

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-13-2015, 04:03 PM

So basically, pennydreadful settled this whole dumb mess back on pages 9 and 11:

Welp. Peace out, homie.

I addressed those two phony comments a few pages back, I guess you stopped reading after penny's post. I have no agenda, I'm just responding to posts. I would go to another thread and stay on topic like the "Who is your dream director" thread, but the same people have turned it into a Terminator Salvation, McG, and Brett Ratner suck thread.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/fb8fd97da754d03d9b6dc9276f3304f0/tumblr_munagqjiMO1qir88ko1_500.gif

And this is why I elected to nip out for a slice of pizza.

Puke's in it for distance and irritation. Just stick him on ignore and don't bother responding - he's like a dog chasing his own tail at this point.

I'm glad you know me so well and know my thoughts and agendas. It's nice having such a close ally.

So is anybody else wondering whether any snippets of the Blue Door script are going to make it into the sequel story? Especially as pertains to Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady?

I tried to read it the other day, and couldn't get past Col. Schrader...so I'm not sure if their ideas are even good, but I'd assume since they wrote it, originally approved it, they have to think they had some good ideas in it...

pennydreadful

01-13-2015, 04:15 PM

I dunno, I feel like that's probably not going to be touched on. They've basically got a full rogue's gallery with this movie - unless they take Shredder out altogether, there's going to be Shredder, Sachs, Bebop, Rocksteady and possibly Krang (I dunno, am I alone in thinking that Krang's going to make an appearance? I'm not always good at staying on top of the latest news with this thing).

You'd think Krang would have to be there if they're going to macguffin a way of mutating Bebop and Rocksteady.

IndigoErth

01-13-2015, 04:19 PM

So is anybody else wondering whether any snippets of the Blue Door script are going to make it into the sequel story?
Please no please no please no...

Unless it's something harmless like shoving them into the back of a U-Haul truck. lol They've got their own wheels now though so no longer necessary.
Although for a film that had to insert childish/potty humor I was a smidge disappointed there was no humor added via any desperate pit stop potty break in the Blue Door script - because seriously, that's just life and more realistic, who drives THAT far without a couple stops?? (Ok they stopped ONCE, but Casey lied when he said he needed to go, he only stopped to yell at the Turtles for making too much noise.) Bullet proof and bladders of steel.

Really, instead of dumb humor just find the humor in normal Earthling problems they might share that people can relate to. lol

DarkFell

01-13-2015, 04:21 PM

If they do a half a** job on Krang, then I'll will not be a happy camper.

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-13-2015, 04:27 PM

I really think they should either have no Shredder or have him return at the very end to set up the 3rd movie. I liked someone's idea of Rat King and Baxter. And I also like having Krang, Bebop & Rocksteady. Krang or Baxter could provide robot Foot Clan members so the Turtles can use their weapons for once.

Commenter 42

01-13-2015, 04:36 PM

You know what Penny, we were right. He's simple being contrary.
He wants to troll, I'm done with him as well. Anyone who suggests Mc G is a good director, I just can't take seriously.

On topic:
I expect parts of the Blue Door to emerge in Prt 2, possibly the intro to Casey from the early part of the BD script, then something written to tie it into the Krang Battle towards the end. Inbetween we'll watch Vernon and Casey fight over April, and there will be some disasterously lame human story.

I don't think Fichner will actually return, in any major way.

pennydreadful

01-13-2015, 04:45 PM

I feel that since the director they've chosen has a background in kids movies (well, really, "kid movie" as it's the only feature he's done), this is going to be a kid-toned movie.

We know that Nemec and Applebaum are coming back, both of whom have a tv and action background.

So while these are only my own thoughts, I'm thinking that tonally the movie won't be all that different from the last.

With that in mind, and also considering that there's a snowball's chance in hell of the designs being changed - is there a way that a TMNT movie with these designs and overtly being aimed at children could win over people who hated the first movie?

I feel that there is - I'm just not at all confident that it's going to happen on this project.

EDIT: Commenter, you just gave me an idea - I would not be surprised if they brought in Casey as April's old boyfriend from either high-school or college. They clearly thought it was a good enough idea to use once already, and it would allow them to hang onto some scraps from the Blue Door script.

I'm thinking that Fichtner has to be in the movie as he got a three-picture deal. Either they make him put on Shredder's armor for the sequel (which would be absurd but I can see TPTB thinking that not going with that course of action in the first one was what hurt them)... or he basically just continues to exist as a useless character. I'd be surprised if they tried to make him Baxter since Baxter got a 1 second cameo in the first movie already. And I can't see anything in the first movie that would indicate that he's actually just Krang in a meat-suit.

Though actually I wouldn't put it past them to just make him Krang and handwave the fact that he was supposedly Shredder's boyhood chum.

Xav

01-13-2015, 05:43 PM

Krang or Baxter could provide robot Foot Clan members so the Turtles can use their weapons for once.They did use their weapons in the movie.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-13-2015, 06:03 PM

Please, please, PLEASE... buy out the contracts and do NOT have Vern or Eric Sachs in the sequels. Unless Eric Sachs is Krang in disguise... that would work for me. (All the backstory delivered in the first movie can be handwaved away as lies or cover story.)

Gah, why didn't they make Casey the cameraman instead of Vern? Casey could be a cameraman...

Xav

01-13-2015, 06:10 PM

But if Sacks was Krang in an exosuit than why would Vern hitting him knock him out?

The Boston Ninja Turtle

01-13-2015, 06:11 PM

Gah, why didn't they make Casey the cameraman instead of Vern? Casey could be a cameraman...

doesnt casey become her camera man in one version

LeoRaph

01-13-2015, 06:21 PM

Would it be too much of a stretch for him to evolve into Bishop? Bishop would have to be a 'new' identity for him or something...Not that he should, the character deserves better...writing wise that is but if Fichtner could learn to fight he could do a damn fine job with the role...then again look who's in charge....Ahhhh forget it, just get the next 2 over and done with so we can get a proper reboot :tgrumble:

Purse Grabbin Puke

01-13-2015, 06:21 PM

They did use their weapons in the movie.

Yes but a very small amount. Basically what I'm getting at is, I want to see Leo and Raph stab some fools. Only way it's getting done in a Nick movie is if they're robots.

Galactus

01-13-2015, 06:23 PM

I'll take another stab at this...

They ARE crime fighters, because they fight the Foot...who are committing crimes...they fight the Purple Dragons who are also committing crimes. Please anyone show me where the Turtles are like "We're gonna kick these guys asses for the hell of it, screw the citizens of NYC". They may not preach that they are fighting for the people of NYC, but they are. After the whole Splinter/Shredder thing, they are for sure fighting crime, and also saving the world from Aliens. (this makes them SUPERHEROES)

Their reason for fighting the Foot has always been that the it's a personal battle, the fact that the Foot is conducting criminal activities has always been incidental.

Yeah sure they may fall into that life but when push comes to shove they really have no reason to fight other peoples battles and if you want proof of that it's right here...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e280/klankandorbis/Reason1_zps909ef55a.png

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e280/klankandorbis/Reason2_zps256beb41.png

Or the Fred Wolf show

Season 1 Episode 4 - Hot Rodding Teenagers From Dimension-X

Donatello - Why do we have to do it? It's the human's problem.

April - He seems to have it in for you guys too or have you forgotten?

Even the movie itself never exactly made it clear if the turtles were fighting crime in general of the Foot in particular and if so why? I don't actually mind the idea of them being portrayed either way but they need a reason to do it.

there is not a major campaign to condemn the movie, it did great dvd and digital sales which means people want to rewatch it, and own it.

Well no there's no actual campaign, I think the majority of people who hated it had their say and moved on but for die hard fans it's a different.

Also I can't speak for the DVD sales and the like but it's not in the Top 10 sellers of last year US or worldwide and for sites that somehow track illegal downloads it wasn't even in the Top 20 worldwide for that. I think the general apathy is more dangerous.

Even if childhood favorites look Bebop and Rocksteady could tempt the people who swore off the movie back it's not like that number was all that huge to begin with which is a bit dangerous in sequel where the budget would surely be increased.

Shredder IS murderous, if you're willing to kill literally MILLIONS of people to gain power over a city, you.are.murderous.

But he wasn't murdering people for the sake of murdering them. It was means to end to trick the US government into giving him money. A motivation which doesn't really pass the laugh test. Like I've said I wouldn't want a world conquering "kill them all" Shredder but it would have made more sense than him pulling a con which would never work.

What's particularly galling about it is how unnecessary it was. Every other version they fight for a personal reason but even here a good enough reason would be to get the mutagen to save Splinter's life - something which was an after thought in the movie but would have have better motivation than shoe horning in the whole "city in danger" angle.

Nobody will convince me that a major movie studio purposefully makes things bad just for the hell of it. Making things for money is what everyone in Hollywood is doing it's weird that Bay and Co get's bulldozed for being that way. I don't like it, but at some point you just have to accept it's never going to change.

That's not what anyone is saying. No one really sets out to make a unsuccessful product but actors, directors and producers do sign on for projects they don't really believe in for a multitude of reasons like say a big paycheck or in the hopes of working on a specific high profile movie (they hate) will lead to higher profile work in general (that they'll like).

There's also movies that start with good intentions but then go bad. I wouldn't be at all suprised if years from now a lot of the cast will be less than generous talking about the movie.

He tries to kill Splinter, and he is told Raphael is dead. Raphael smashes a wall into some foot soldiers, and the ceiling falls on him.

Not a plot hole per se but what was the deal with protecting the fan room? What was so important that Leo had to send Raph off to protect it?

Also leaving Splinter while he's still alive seems very Dr Evil-ish but then again their whole plan seemed like something from an Austin Powers movie. I could almost picture Eric Sacks with his pinky raised "I'll give you the cure for one million dollars".