I would like to see an episode of the Turtles turning Human

[TigerClaw]

With the Nick series, I would like for them to create an episode, In which the 4 Turtles were accidently turned into normal humans.

Imaging what that would be like for them, To learn what it is like to be human, How they deal with the disadvantages and so on, Take down the enemy, And then by the end of the episode they change back to there Turtle selves.

[CyberCubed]

So you want a remake of one of the worst episodes of the original cartoon?

Knowing this show it would be Donnie who turns himself human to try and get with April too. NO THANKS.

[TigerClaw]

So you want a remake of one of the worst episodes of the original cartoon?

Knowing this show it would be Donnie who turns himself human to try and get with April too. NO THANKS.
They can probably do it better on Nick.

Mikey was the only one who turned Human on the original.

JMj3kyNkkK0

[TurtleTitan97]

This one of the few times I fully agree with Cybecubed. That episode where Mike turned into a human was one of the worst episodes of the OT because it made zero sense. Especially since somehow, turning human= losing all of your ninja training for some reason. Wasn't a fan when I first watched, and I certainly wouldn't be a fan if it were t ever happen in this series (Which I seriously doubt).

Plus this was pretty much the episode that inspired all those garbage fanfic stories you see online about the Turtles turning into humans. Blech. Thanks but no thanks. :sick:

[TigerClaw]

This one of the few times I fully agree with Cybecubed. That episode where Mike turned into a human was one of the worst episodes of the OT because it made zero sense. Especially since somehow, turning human= losing all of your ninja training for some reason. Wasn't a fan when I first watched, and I certainly wouldn't be a fan if it were t ever happen in this series (Which I seriously doubt).

Plus this was pretty much the episode that inspired all those garbage fanfic stories you see online about the Turtles turning into humans. Blech. Thanks but no thanks. :sick:
I had no problems with that old episode, I found it amusing at the time.

[TurtleTitan97]

I had no problems with that old episode, I found it amusing at the time.

Good for you. I hated it.

[pennydreadful]

I actually think it would be a very interesting idea, if executed correctly.

[TigerClaw]

I actually think it would be a very interesting idea, if executed correctly.
Yeah, Exactly, They could do this without being goofy.

[Autbot_Benz]

MV0sK65PyVI

[TigerClaw]

MV0sK65PyVI
FJbmB9k2Y88

[Tarris Vaal]

We mentioned this idea in the episode ideas thread earlier. Personally I think it would be interesting and has potential to advance some threads (like driving home just how alone they are for Raph, giving Leo a glimpse of normality, etc)

but

I think you are right that the primary area that would be touched on is Donnie and April - which if you aren't fond of already would definitely not add any appeal to doing something like this.

In the episode ideas thread I had said that if they were to do it, it may work as part of a retromutagen accident - almost certainly centred on Donatello. He would then see an opportunity not to be a freak and become 'addicted' to the idea of being human - and to the idea that it might give him a real chance with April (lets face it, if it happened at this point it would be stranger if it didnt cross his mind)
He wouldn't lose his ninja skills, but he would be physically weaker and struggle to keep up. Eventually he'd be forced to choose between staying human and 'maybe' having a chance at a normal life, and saving his brothers by returning to normal.

He chooses the latter - lesson learned - April reassures him she likes him as he is, not how he wishes to be. A little cheesy maybe, but certainly doable and slots in well with the kid's show feel as well as potentially adding some proper character development.

But like I say; if you don't like Donatello / April story episodes, I struggle to imagine how an episode like this would fit into the series easily without being a throwaway ep.

[pennydreadful]

Yeah, Exactly, They could do this without being goofy.

Well it would be interesting to explore what problems they would experience as humans. And would they want to give up being human to go back to being mutants, and if yes, why? How much of their identity is defined by their mutant-ness?

I can certainly see Donnie and Mikey wanting to go human, so that they can be accepted in the human world. We all remember how excited Mikey got hearing about/seeing April's school in "Alien Agenda" - I think that's something that he'd want the chance to experience.

I think that having them lose their ability to ninja correctly would be too goofy - on the other hand, the boys probably wouldn't be as slick as they usually would be given that they would be fighting for the first time without the weight of a shell - which would take some adjustment, given that their weight and balance would now be different.

[Coola Yagami]

They should totally do it, but with all four of them. I doubt the Nick version would be dumb enough to go with the 'their ninja skills are their super power' bs from the original.

I hope they make them react to not having the extra weight on their back.

[TigerClaw]

They should totally do it, but with all four of them. I doubt the Nick version would be dumb enough to go with the 'their ninja skills are their super power' bs from the original.

I hope they make them react to not having the extra weight on their back.
Yeah, It would be interesting to see how they react, without having there greatest defense, There shell.

Because if they were human, They will get hurt really bad, if they were smack into walls.

[Donatello19]

I think it'd be really interesting, I'd like to see it happen!

[Gunpowder]

I'm not on board with the idea, since this show loves to milk the Donnie/April thing, but I can see it having potential. However, it won't happen. Making human renditions of the 4 Turtles (in this show) would require making 4 full-fledged character models - and I don't see the production team being 'bout that life. Especially if it's only for a single episode.

It's fun to think about the idea, though - getting to see the Turtles cease to be "freaks" and live ordinary lives for a little bit. That'd be a cool twist.

[Mutant Ninja Anole]

The turtles turn into humans, everyone else in the city turns into turtles.

[Gunpowder]

The turtles turn into humans, everyone else in the city turns into turtles.

Hahaha. Now there's an idea.

[IndigoErth]

I wouldn't be against it, but might be trickier with this series to just casually do that for one episode since it treats mutation as a more serious thing (influence on inanimate objects aside). Unless it's not mutation, but then wtf is it and how do they reverse it either way.

That Donnie/April thing though... Hmm. Although Casey would probably be hilariously pissed about it. :lol: Plus it would be amusing watching Donnie try to convince April that it's him.

The turtles turn into humans, everyone else in the city turns into turtles.
:tthumbsu: Yes! Then they can just live among everyone else and humans can just think they didn't turn back into human for some reason. :tlol: They'd probably be pitied constantly, but it's better than prejudice I guess.

[Gunstar_Red]

It would be a fun idea... but, it would make no sense. Them turning into regular turtles, yes. Super mutants (2003's Adventures in Turtle Sitting), yes. Humans, no. Unless it's a dream episode, then anything goes!

Anole's idea would be a great twist on the fantasy. They are now humans, but are still outcasts!

[senpai]

If the Nick series decides to make the turtles human for an episode, I have complete faith that it's going to be great. I think the Nick series has some great writers for the show. True, there were some episodes that struck me as so-so, but really, '12 TMNT has yet to let me down. I think my least favorite episode was Monkey Brains...and that was mainly because the monkey really scared me. xD Anyway, if it's done right, I think it could be interesting. I just wonder, if they do go down that route, what would be the point? You know what I mean?

[Bam]

I'm 100% for this, even if it's just goofy fanservice that makes no sense. I'd like to see why/how they would turn back to turtles though.

[Metalwolf]

It would be a fun idea... but, it would make no sense. Them turning into regular turtles, yes. Super mutants (2003's Adventures in Turtle Sitting), yes. Humans, no. Unless it's a dream episode, then anything goes!

It would be interesting in a dream episode, but other then that, it would be hard for me to suspend disbelief. I could see regular turtles happening, but not humans.

[Powder]

Nooooo thank you.

[Metalwolf]

Nooooo thank you.

On second thought, I can't help but agree.

[shuriken]

Sounds better as a fanfic. Did a few sketches of TMNT vs their "human selves". Neat idea, but I wouldn't want an episode of it. Maybe a story in an anthology or something.

[pennydreadful]

I'm not on board with the idea, since this show loves to milk the Donnie/April thing, but I can see it having potential. However, it won't happen. Making human renditions of the 4 Turtles (in this show) would require making 4 full-fledged character models - and I don't see the production team being 'bout that life. Especially if it's only for a single episode.

It's fun to think about the idea, though - getting to see the Turtles cease to be "freaks" and live ordinary lives for a little bit. That'd be a cool twist.

I've got zero interest in seeing it in terms of the Donnie/April story - but it would be interesting to explore, especially as the idea of Splinter being de-mutated had been batted about in the past. And if he were reunited properly with Karai (once she was de-mutated), would he feel differently about all of them being a normal human family? Would he want to give his daughter a chance at a normal life, after 15 years of being raised by Shredder?

You could also examine the question of whether the Turtles would still be freaks and outcasts, regardless of whether they had human meat-suits or not? We are talking about people who grew up living in a sewer, after all. Would they embrace the "I love being a turtle" ethos as they realize that it's part of who they are, no matter what? Regardless of whether they're human or not, they're still going to have the same enemies - and I think the boys would realize that they can't take on the likes of Shredder and Tigerclaw as effectively without that mutant edge.

That being said, it could not be done well in a single episode - you'd need at least 2 - 3 episodes to fully portray that the grass is not, in fact, always greener.

It could well be that the show isn't the place for that particular story - but it is still an interesting story, though maybe one better explored by comic or fanfic.

The turtles turn into humans, everyone else in the city turns into turtles.

They did that in an episode of Gargoyles, actually: "The Mirror" (episode 5, season 2). One of the villains has the gargs turned to humans and the rest of the people in the city turned to gargs.

[senpai]

They did that in an episode of Gargoyles, actually: "The Mirror" (episode 5, season 2). One of the villains has the gargs turned to humans and the rest of the people in the city turned to gargs.

I remember that episode! I thought the gargoyles turned human character designs were SO weird! LOL!

[CaliperCat]

I think it could be an interesting concept, so long as they made it more than one episode.

Actually, the first thing that came to mind when I read the title of this thread was Raph being the only turtle to become human, because I get the impression that inside (perhaps deep, deep down inside), he wishes he could be a normal human. I mean, he's always telling the other turtles that they're going to be alone for forever, and people with attitudes like that are generally wishing that their fate were different. He'd keep his ninja skills, of course, but he might have some fun being human, at least until he started missing his family and his home.

One thing I'm apprehensive about would be the process of re-mutating the turtles from their human form back into their turtle form. They were never human to begin with, but I'm assuming that such a transformation might require dipping back into mutagen. We've seen that the stuff tends to be highly unpredictable (with the exception of Bebop and Rocksteady), so unless Donnie used equipment such as that, who knows if the re-mutation would maintain the results of their original mutation, or something completely different (I can just picture Mikey saying, "Dudes, I have a third arm growing out of my forehead!").

[FoxBoxKid]

If you think this is a good idea, you're wrong. I remember Transformers Animated did something like that, but it was just a simulation, thank god.

[IndigoErth]

I know... I have Mikey take up writing and it's just a part of some fiction as written by him. Just some "what if" day dreaming.


Either that, or it's not them that changes but just a peek at another dimension where everything is reversed. Although that would take too much model work for one short thing so a bit unreasonable financially.

[victory_angel]

Or maybe have it be just a dream. Not to borrow from the OT as we do to much about that already. But it could still be a nod to that episode.

In the OT there was one episode where the Turtles are complaining about how maybe they were better off as regular turtles. And then they all have a vision where they are in a world where they didn't exist as mutant Turtles. Only for it to turn out the whole thing had been a shared dream among the four of them.


So much like Pizza face is a probable dream. Perhaps one of the Turtles wishes to be human even if it's only for one day. So they go to sleep and when they wake up they are human or all of them are human. None of them know how they became human but they think this is the perfect chance to know what it's like to live like humans.

They won't lose their ninja skills or anything...of that nature. But it is likely they are so used to the familiar weight of their shells that they have trouble landing jumps or flips because they have nothing to compensate the lack of that extra weight.

If this occurs after the Kraang are defeated and everyone is returned to normal there could be the cliche one of them gets caught be a Truant Officer and sent to April and Casey's school. Maybe Mikey since he had been so interested in experiencing what school was actually like.

Donnie I can see hanging out at the national library.

Raph I can see actually enjoying the city, seeing what it must be like through the eyes of a human.

Leo would be the only one who would stick to being a ninja and keep tabs on the Shredder or whatever enemy they are facing trying to face. So in otherwords normal ninja training.

But in battle they find themselves struggling with their mutant enemies because they no longer have the protection of their shells either. Then they wake up and it turns out the whole thing was just a dream.

[Candy Kappa]

Ugh, no thank you. They are turtles, suddenly being turned into humans just feels cheap. Maybe if it was hologram disguises, that only lasted for a short period of time.

[pennydreadful]

Maybe Donnie could look at making them hologram watches, like Nightcrawler had in Xmen: Evolution. And initially they just use them for important stuff but then they start using them all the time and start wishing they actually were human.

And then at the end of the arc they realize that they're better off being who they are than pretending to be something that they aren't.

[Mercer23]

Maybe Donnie could look at making them hologram watches, like Nightcrawler had in Xmen: Evolution. And initially they just use them for important stuff but then they start using them all the time and start wishing they actually were human.

And then at the end of the arc they realize that they're better off being who they are than pretending to be something that they aren't.

He sorta did already. In the New adventures comics, he added a projector to his t-phone that let him turn photos into a disguise and met up with April as Casey. Then it had a glitch where it would pick-up any photo downloaded by anyone nearby.

[plastroncafe]

Provided we got a NO CREEPER NICE GUY DON guarantee, I'd be interested to see what the writing staff had for something like this.

[Gunpowder]

I've got zero interest in seeing it in terms of the Donnie/April story - but it would be interesting to explore, especially as the idea of Splinter being de-mutated had been batted about in the past. And if he were reunited properly with Karai (once she was de-mutated), would he feel differently about all of them being a normal human family? Would he want to give his daughter a chance at a normal life, after 15 years of being raised by Shredder?

You could also examine the question of whether the Turtles would still be freaks and outcasts, regardless of whether they had human meat-suits or not? We are talking about people who grew up living in a sewer, after all. Would they embrace the "I love being a turtle" ethos as they realize that it's part of who they are, no matter what? Regardless of whether they're human or not, they're still going to have the same enemies - and I think the boys would realize that they can't take on the likes of Shredder and Tigerclaw as effectively without that mutant edge.

That being said, it could not be done well in a single episode - you'd need at least 2 - 3 episodes to fully portray that the grass is not, in fact, always greener.

It could well be that the show isn't the place for that particular story - but it is still an interesting story, though maybe one better explored by comic or fanfic.

Yeah that's true, huh? They'd still feel out of place even though their appearance has changed and they'd still be dealing with the same foes. I think what would end up happening would be that they come to the realization that they'd rather be Turtles.

But to me, that doesn't sound like it could be official; it sounds like fanfic material. And I prefer it that way, since we can see how that would play out without it actually having happened. I feel it's one of those things that's hypothetically interesting, but not something I want to see in the actual show because it'd throw things off a bit (for me, at least).

Now that you mention Splinter becoming human, I'm wondering if this show will actually make that happen. It might seem like a given that it will in the end, but I'm not so sure. Something tells me it won't.

If you think this is a good idea, you're wrong. I remember Transformers Animated did something like that, but it was just a simulation, thank god.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion?s=t

[Raven]

Ugh, no thank you. They are turtles, suddenly being turned into humans just feels cheap.

Never been a fan of human version of the turtles, just as you put it I feel that it takes away from their uniqueness.

[IndigoErth]

I'm somewhat ok with a one-time episode dealy, better yet just a portion of an episode, but, and no offense to anyone who has done so, but I find most 'human version' fan art/work terribly boring as it is (at least in concept, maybe someone is a good writer otherwise)... The world is saturated with humans, we're a plague upon the planet, we're cliché, been done too many times already, so just why. :tlol:

[snake]

That's a stupid idea. Also, sounds like a fanfic.

[plastroncafe]

The Nick Toon is a fanfic.

[IndigoErth]

Psh, if the writers are fans then isn't it all fanfic at first? :tlol: At least until it's public.

[BubblyShell22]

I never like reading Turtles as human stories unless they're very well written. If this were to happen, I'd like for it to be a story Mikey is writing as that would make more sense.

[FoxBoxKid]

If you think this is a good idea, you're wrong. I remember Transformers Animated did something like that, but it was just a simulation, thank god.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion?s=t

According to the link you posted, an opinion is defined as "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." Well I think there are sufficient grounds to say, with complete certainty, this is not a good idea.

[Commenter 42]

So you want a remake of one of the worst episodes of the original cartoon?

Knowing this show it would be Donnie who turns himself human to try and get with April too. NO THANKS.

This one of the few times I fully agree with Cybecubed. That episode where Mike turned into a human was one of the worst episodes of the OT because it made zero sense. Especially since somehow, turning human= losing all of your ninja training for some reason. Wasn't a fan when I first watched, and I certainly wouldn't be a fan if it were t ever happen in this series (Which I seriously doubt).

Plus this was pretty much the episode that inspired all those garbage fanfic stories you see online about the Turtles turning into humans. Blech. Thanks but no thanks. :sick:

Good for you. I hated it.

MV0sK65PyVI

Nooooo thank you.

If you think this is a good idea, you're wrong. I remember Transformers Animated did something like that, but it was just a simulation, thank god.

Ugh, no thank you. They are turtles, suddenly being turned into humans just feels cheap. Maybe if it was hologram disguises, that only lasted for a short period of time.

That's a stupid idea. Also, sounds like a fanfic.

All of the above. As was said in an old thread, it enforces the idea that being human is somehow progressive, or the enpoint of a mutation, as if humans are the pinnacle of genetic superiority. It's simply wrong and lazy.

I think Ciro and the gang know better.

Humans suck.

[pennydreadful]

Humans suck.

You'll never get any argument from me on that one. :tlol:

[Commenter 42]

You'll never get any argument from me on that one. :tlol:

Grrr.. apparently there isn't a high-five emoji.

Still........

http://static.celebuzz.com/uploads/2013/06/14/request-five.gif

[IndigoErth]

:lol: Truest words ever spoken. At least we have one positive trait in understanding that we suck. :tlol: Too bad we lack the will to stop.

[ssjup81]

I would only like this if it's one of Mikey's "what if" moments. Like maybe he imagines what it would be like if they were human. Seeing a Ninja Cipes, again, would be awesome. :lol:

[Gunpowder]

According to the link you posted, an opinion is defined as "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty." Well I think there are sufficient grounds to say, with complete certainty, this is not a good idea.

And that's your opinion (which I more or less share). But calling another opinion "wrong" is unethical, just as it is to call your own opinion "right". It can be sided with, or argued against, but it can't be claimed as right or wrong, no matter how strongly you agree/disagree with it.

Scientific theories & hypotheses follow the exact same principle.

All of the above. As was said in an old thread, it enforces the idea that being human is somehow progressive, or the enpoint of a mutation, as if humans are the pinnacle of genetic superiority. It's simply wrong and lazy.

Good point.

[Tarris Vaal]

All of the above. As was said in an old thread, it enforces the idea that being human is somehow progressive, or the enpoint of a mutation, as if humans are the pinnacle of genetic superiority. It's simply wrong and lazy.

In all fairness, saying that doesn't actually make this kind of plot a bad idea - because that is kind of the point of a storyline like this. :)
Its point is to demonstrate that the grass is not greener on the other side (though I guess it is literally greener on the turtles side... anyway...)

The whole idea would be to show that though one or two of the turtles (or more) might 'think' that being human is going to lead to a better life/better situation/better romance/better nachos/whatever, but it really doesn't and they are literally better off in their own skins.

I also completely agree that any attempt to do something like this should be very reversible and either spread over a two parter (with a lasting psychological lesson for those involved) or done as a dream like one off.

[pennydreadful]

Grrr.. apparently there isn't a high-five emoji.

Still........

http://static.celebuzz.com/uploads/2013/06/14/request-five.gif

I'll go you one better and offer a high-three! :tcool:

http://www.collectorscornermd.com/assets/img/tmnt_hi5.jpg

[ssjup81]

In all fairness, saying that doesn't actually make this kind of plot a bad idea - because that is kind of the point of a storyline like this. :)
Its point is to demonstrate that the grass is not greener on the other side (though I guess it is literally greener on the turtles side... anyway...)

The whole idea would be to show that though one or two of the turtles (or more) might 'think' that being human is going to lead to a better life/better situation/better romance/better nachos/whatever, but it really doesn't and they are literally better off in their own skins.

I also completely agree that any attempt to do something like this should be very reversible and either spread over a two parter (with a lasting psychological lesson for those involved) or done as a dream like one off.That's the only reason I could see this happening at all. That was the point if the OT's take on it with Mikey. The way he turned was very convoluted, and losing his martial arts skill was stupid, but he learned that he was better off as a turtle. Out of the four, he wondered about being a normal teenage boy most.

For this incarnation, I get the feeling either Mikey or Donnie would be in that situation if it ever touches upon it. For Mikey, just for curiosity sake. With Donnie, it'd be pretty obvious. For Fungus Humungus and Monkey Brains, I truly got the impression that Donnie is self-conscious over being a mutant at times.

[plastroncafe]

I think Ciro and the gang know better.



I wouldn't be so sure about this...

[Amaranthus]

Donatello joins Tumblr and identifies as humankin. Xe undergoes a series of treatments with altered mutagen after sjw's tell xe to follow xer dreams.

[plastroncafe]

^^^ Plot approved by this Social Justice Cleric.

Why? Because it doesn't involve Donnie being a niceguy creeper.
I'm really in favor of pretty much any plot where Donnie isn't a niceguy creeper.

[Commenter 42]

The whole idea would be to show that though one or two of the turtles (or more) might 'think' that being human is going to lead to a better life/better situation/better romance/better nachos/whatever, but it really doesn't and they are literally better off in their own skins.


Everyone has wanted to be someone else at some point in their lives. Everyone has felt jealousy, and wished they could inhabit anothers skin, just for a day....

Wish I was taller/shorter/prettier/uglier/smarter/stronger etc...

BUT - that's not my issue. My issue is with the idea you're proposing, which suggests that the Turtles think of themselves as something less than human, and wished to be fully human, like Pinocchio wanting to be a real boy, only to realize that the grass isn't greener...

And that's the problem there. It pre-supposes they think humans are "better" than they are, or that they are "half humans"...

That runs a little to close to the 3/5ths argument for my taste.

Just how I see it.

[Ninturtle]

The Nick Toon is a fanfic.

No it's not, nick owns the tmnt property.

[Refractive Reflections]

Everyone has wanted to be someone else at some point in their lives. Everyone has felt jealousy, and wished they could inhabit anothers skin, just for a day....

Wish I was taller/shorter/prettier/uglier/smarter/stronger etc...

BUT - that's not my issue. My issue is with the idea you're proposing, which suggests that the Turtles think of themselves as something less than human, and wished to be fully human, like Pinocchio wanting to be a real boy, only to realize that the grass isn't greener...

And that's the problem there. It pre-supposes they think humans are "better" than they are, or that they are "half humans"...

That runs a little to close to the 3/5ths argument for my taste.

Just how I see it.

Doesn't everyone at one point (or many times), when they're young think they feel "less than" in a society that constantly compares individuals already? ...And since these Turtles are teenagers (and "genetic accidents" as OT Shredder would say), why not address this issue (through an analgous comparison using mutations) since kids and teenagers already feel "less than"/marginalized compared to their more gifted peers and grown-up adults?

For me, the only time the "becoming human" theme becomes something dreadful, is if it's simply used to fulfill shipping fantasies with fanfics. ...And since this April-Donatello thing is ongoing, the "becoming human" effect would only add more groan-worthy fodder to it. Just like the show's other themes and characters, it (the "becoming human" theme) would have so much potential to go deeper, but would most likely fall flat (in this case, to cater mostly to Apriltello and one-note gags from Mikey about how weird humans are).

[plastroncafe]

No it's not, nick owns the tmnt property.

Just because it's a canon unto itself doesn't change the fact that it's a transformative work created by fans of the original franchise.

ie: Fanfic.

As for the idea that turning the turtles human for a story line would some how give them the idea that they're less than human, I would argue being forced to live in isolation from a population that would fear them because they're different kind of already does that.

This could be a really interesting storyline, if done correctly.
Who hasn't felt like an outsider?
Who among us doesn't buck the status quo in one way or another?
Who hasn't thought that maybe, just maybe, being more like other people would make life just that much easier?

Only to find out that...problems exist no matter where you go.
And that the way to deal with them effectively is to face them head on, and not pretend to be something you're not.

[Mew]

I'll go you one better and offer a high-three! :tcool:

http://www.collectorscornermd.com/assets/img/tmnt_hi5.jpg
https://hereticaljargon.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/national-high-five-day.jpg

[Ninturtle]

Just because it's a canon unto itself doesn't change the fact that it's a transformative work created by fans of the original franchise.

ie: Fanfic.

As for the idea that turning the turtles human for a story line would some how give them the idea that they're less than human, I would argue being forced to live in isolation from a population that would fear them because they're different kind of already does that.

This could be a really interesting storyline, if done correctly.
Who hasn't felt like an outsider?
Who among us doesn't buck the status quo in one way or another?
Who hasn't thought that maybe, just maybe, being more like other people would make life just that much easier?

Only to find out that...problems exist no matter where you go.
And that the way to deal with them effectively is to face them head on, and not pretend to be something you're not.

When people say fan fiction it makes it seem like it's not canon. Fan fiction is a poor way to describe the show.

[plastroncafe]

Maybe to you it does, or people who view fanfiction negatively.

[Commenter 42]

Doesn't everyone at one point (or many times), when they're young think they feel "less than" in a society that constantly compares individuals already? ...And since these Turtles are teenagers (and "genetic accidents" as OT Shredder would say), why not address this issue (through an analgous comparison using mutations) since kids and teenagers already feel "less than"/marginalized compared to their more gifted peers and grown-up adults?

For me, the only time the "becoming human" theme becomes something dreadful, is if it's simply used to fulfill shipping fantasies with fanfics. ...And since this April-Donatello thing is ongoing, the "becoming human" effect would only add more groan-worthy fodder to it. Just like the show's other themes and characters, it (the "becoming human" theme) would have so much potential to go deeper, but would most likely fall flat (in this case, to cater mostly to Apriltello and one-note gags from Mikey about how weird humans are).

I think you're missing my point. My point is, very simply, tht the turtles should never be shown to think of themselves as "less than". That is the crux of the issue. There isn't anything to address, if you look at it from that angle.

To wit; if you suggest gay is an OTHER, or an issue that needs to be addressed and talked about, you have in a sense created the issue, and are forced to rationalize against the "norm". If instead, you treat Gay as inclusive, or a part of the norm, it needs no defense, and isn't separated into a topic that needs to be addressed. I hope I'm being clear. it's about true equality, devoid of categories.

In my opinion, this sentiment reinforces the idea of "other-ness" being "less-than human" a dangerous idea for a multitude of reasons. It's one of the biggest issues I had with the 2014 film.

This is NOT to say that I'm in favor of a Don/April romance. It's idiotic, because we again resort to the idea that April is the constant, and Donnie is the apologist. He must "make up for" his mutation, or work harder to gain her affection, when compared with his human rival (Jones).

I would assert that Donnie would have no interest in April, any more than a giraffe has sexual interest in a grizzly bear.

[BubblyShell22]

But the whole theme of TMNT is that the Turtles are mutants who would be cast out of society if they were exposed to the public. So, for them, being human would solve all of that in their eyes, but once they realize that humans cast each other out for certain differences and treat their own kind the same way as they would treat the Turtles, then I think it would change their perspective and they'd realize that they're better off being mutants. And if one of the Turtles has to be turned human, I'd love for it to be Leo (because I'm biased) or Mikey since he always seems to be the type to want to belong.

[Mew]

Here is human Donnie: http://jenesee.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/andre.jpg

[Commenter 42]

But the whole theme of TMNT is that the Turtles are mutants who would be cast out of society if they were exposed to the public. So, for them, being human would solve all of that in their eyes, but once they realize that humans cast each other out for certain differences and treat their own kind the same way as they would treat the Turtles, then I think it would change their perspective and they'd realize that they're better off being mutants. And if one of the Turtles has to be turned human, I'd love for it to be Leo (because I'm biased) or Mikey since he always seems to be the type to want to belong.

UM, where is this canon? I think you're inferring a point of view.
The entire theme is the cycle of revenge, is it not?
Here is human Donnie: http://jenesee.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/andre.jpg


Lol, 2014 PD Donnie, for sure.

Not cool 1990's Donnie.

[Mew]

Nah, PD Don lol!

[Commenter 42]

Nah, PD Don lol!

Great minds, and all that...
:lol::lol::lol:

[BubblyShell22]

UM, where is this canon? I think you're inferring a point of view.
The entire theme is the cycle of revenge, is it not?

Well, that was in the comics, but I always inferred that part of the theme is also that they're mutants who would be cast out from society because of their differences. It's an interesting theme to explore, especially since in other incarnations, Splinter has made it clear that the humans above wouldn't understand them for how different they are. Sure, it may not have been the main theme, but it is a theme nonetheless.

[plastroncafe]

has there been a version of canon where splinterer doesn't explain their living in the sewer as a way to hide them from the people above who wouldn't understand?

[GoldMutant]

Here is human Donnie: http://jenesee.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/andre.jpg

This just made me smile. Gotta love Andre. :D

Anyways, I'm unsure on this idea. Then again, who knows what could happen?

[BubblyShell22]

I don't know, but I do remember he said it in the first movie, so there's that. Like I said, it's still an interesting idea to explore, and if the show doesn't do it, I might take a crack at it with a fan fic if I can think of something.

[Commenter 42]

Well, that was in the comics, but I always inferred that part of the theme is also that they're mutants who would be cast out from society because of their differences. It's an interesting theme to explore, especially since in other incarnations, Splinter has made it clear that the humans above wouldn't understand them for how different they are. Sure, it may not have been the main theme, but it is a theme nonetheless.

That aside, i hope you can see it from my perspective.

In a way, you could look at it as though not being a mutant means humans are the lesser creature, not the mutants.

[Refractive Reflections]

I think you're missing my point. My point is, very simply, tht the turtles should never be shown to think of themselves as "less than". That is the crux of the issue. There isn't anything to address, if you look at it from that angle.

To wit; if you suggest gay is an OTHER, or an issue that needs to be addressed and talked about, you have in a sense created the issue, and are forced to rationalize against the "norm". If instead, you treat Gay as inclusive, or a part of the norm, it needs no defense, and isn't separated into a topic that needs to be addressed. I hope I'm being clear. it's about true equality, devoid of categories.

In my opinion, this sentiment reinforces the idea of "other-ness" being "less-than human" a dangerous idea for a multitude of reasons. It's one of the biggest issues I had with the 2014 film.


Of course we wouldn't want to see the Turtles think of themselves as "less than", but they would have to learn that eventually (as with most people in growing up) whether it's shown explicitly (on a TMNT episode or movie) or implicitly (before the series/movie began), when human society consistently reinforces that explicitly (i.e. legal racism in the early 20th century) or implicitly (i.e. society's "celebrity worship" culture).

I think what you may be emphasizing is what you want the final message/moral of the show or episode to be, which I understand, but with me, I'm pointing out the categorizing (implicit or explicit) that human nature already does, which creates the ostracized Turtles' living conditions in the first place (that plastroncafe and BubblyShell22 brought up earlier). It inevitably becomes an "issue" when the Turtles compare the disparity of their living conditions and treatment to the average human above ground (when the Turtles haven't done anything to demerit themselves), which I think every person can relate to, in their own social context (i.e. school environment with bullying, economic disparity, parents unfairly comparing their children with each other, race relations, etc.).

[Commenter 42]

Of course we wouldn't want to see the Turtles think of themselves as "less than", but they would have to learn that eventually (as with most people in growing up) whether it's shown explicitly (on a TMNT episode or movie) or implicitly (before the series/movie began), when human society consistently reinforces that explicitly (i.e. legal racism in the early 20th century) or implicitly (i.e. society's "celebrity worship" culture).

I think what you may be emphasizing is what you want the final message/moral of the show or episode to be, which I understand, but with me, I'm pointing out the categorizing (implicit or explicit) that human nature already does, which creates the ostracized Turtles' living conditions in the first place (that plastroncafe and BubblyShell22 brought up earlier). It inevitably becomes an "issue" when the Turtles compare the disparity of their living conditions and treatment to the average human above ground (when the Turtles haven't done anything to demerit themselves), which I think every person can relate to, in their own social context (i.e. school environment with bullying, economic disparity, parents unfairly comparing their children with each other, race relations, etc.).

That's...that's not at all my point.
Hunh. I don't want there to be an episode in which the turtles magically become human.
And since when are the turtles living in the sewers due to their physical appearance?
You're chasing the wrong horse. I've made my argument already, I thought it was fairly clear.

[Refractive Reflections]

That's...that's not at all my point.
Hunh. I don't want there to be an episode of the turtles becoming human.
And since when are the turtles living in the sewers due to their physical appearance?
You're chasing the wrong horse. I've made my argument already.

Hmmm, okay. **shrug** Anyways, I just thought addressing societal mentalities of "less than" could have been done while using the "becoming human" device, since that "less than" impression is projected upon the Turtles, manifested through their ostracized living arrangements and not being able to fully immerse themselves in human society. That's all...


And since when are the turtles living in the sewers due to their physical appearance?


I don't think I brought up the point of "physical appearance".... :ohwell:

[Tarris Vaal]

Everyone has wanted to be someone else at some point in their lives. Everyone has felt jealousy, and wished they could inhabit anothers skin, just for a day....

Wish I was taller/shorter/prettier/uglier/smarter/stronger etc...

BUT - that's not my issue. My issue is with the idea you're proposing, which suggests that the Turtles think of themselves as something less than human, and wished to be fully human, like Pinocchio wanting to be a real boy, only to realize that the grass isn't greener...

And that's the problem there. It pre-supposes they think humans are "better" than they are, or that they are "half humans"...

That runs a little to close to the 3/5ths argument for my taste.

Just how I see it.

You see, weirdly, I actually agree with you! But I've ended up on the other side of the fence and think this could be a good idea for a storyline - pretty much exactly for the reasons you stated! :)

In most instances it is pre supposed that humans are 'better' - when the humans are plainly just as flawed as everyone else (if not more so). But because its a human dominated society, that is going to be the prevailing viewpoint, even for a lot of non humans (look at Rahzar, Baxter and Fishface for instance, who all want to be human again because they believe they were better off. Shredder considers being a mutant so bad he uses mutation as a punishment. Bebop and Rocksteady pleaded not to be mutated. Even the Kraang constantly refer to the turtles as 'Pathetic mutants' as though being a mutant were an insult. Casey too spent a lot of time referring to the turtles as 'freaks'

The most accepting and tolerant characters of mutants so far have been Timothy and Splinter.

The Turtles are constantly under a barrage of prejudice from the outside world. Given the age of the characters it would make perfect sense that they would be affected by it (even if they were trying to ignore it)

Donatello has made frequent allusions to considering himself inferior due to his mutant status. Mikey also seems to occasionally hint at liking the idea of 'fitting in'. Though its speculation, it wouldn't surprise me to find out Raph's cynicism is largely born from feelings of inferiority. Leo is about the only one I think who has escaped it by throwing himself into training.


A 'becomes human' plot for a couple of episodes would be - for my perspective at least - a nice way of touching on this subject (and prejudice of mutants in general) without it becoming a massive plot point (as it is in Xmen for example)

[ssjup81]

And since when are the turtles living in the sewers due to their physical appearance?You mean they aren't? They can't just gradually walk up to a realtor and ask to rent an apartment space or buy a house or apply for a job. They're mutants and non-human. In general, humans will fear them. They're four giant talking turtles with a giant rat master. Yeah...I'm pretty sure they are in the sewers because of their physical appearance.

Leo's even said that they feel that it's better if people don't know they exist (Murakami ep). Raph has mentioned that people will never understand them when Mikey tried returning the cat to that guy (ep 4).

Yoshi, after being mutated, took refuge in the sewers....so yeah, I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue that they're down there by choice and not because of their physical appearances.

[victory_angel]

There is one dream sequence in the mirage where Leo falls to his death impaling himself on his own swords. The authorities come and study his corpse and find finger prints on his shell which leads him to realize there are others exist. So they find they lair and attack. Raph is killed trying to defend his family and Donnie, Mikey, and Splinter are lead away to be studied and experimented on.

And there is a constant theme with the shows that have main characters that aren't human. "Human's fear what they don't understand."

Shows like the X-men could get around that because with a few exceptions (Beast, Nightcrawler, The morlocks) the characters were human and as long as they kept up the facade that they were human and only used their powers if there was an absolute need. It's only when they were forcibly revealed that people would fear or turn against them for being mutants.

Justice League the characters were largely respected because they were heroes, but that didn't stop people from hating them because of the potential that they could be threat. And of course people who wanted to use the justice league for their own ends.

Shows like Gargoyles and such the characters choose to hide themselves from the world at large. Because they know it would be more dangerous for them if people knew they existed.

In the OT it was sort of okay for the Turtles to walk around topside because they would wear disguises to conceal what they were. But also people knew they existed...they just didn't care. But public sentiment was on whim so if the public hated them there was generally a reason for it such as Burn Thompson labeling them as public enemy number #1 during red sky.

But the 2k3 the turtles largely didn't reveal themselves to the general public unless there was no other choice. The only times any of the Turtles have been seen by large groups of people they were mistaken for Aliens. Or that episode where they were all meditating before all hell broke loose. The only people who by and large knew they existed was that camp of homeless people. But even then it's questionable as to how may people in the camp knew the Turtles weren't human. The Professor obviously knew they weren't human, but there were those two guys that kept thinking the Turtles were wearing costumes.

[TigerClaw]

There is one dream sequence in the mirage where Leo falls to his death impaling himself on his own swords. The authorities come and study his corpse and find finger prints on his shell which leads him to realize there are others exist. So they find they lair and attack. Raph is killed trying to defend his family and Donnie, Mikey, and Splinter are lead away to be studied and experimented on.

And there is a constant theme with the shows that have main characters that aren't human. "Human's fear what they don't understand."

Shows like Gargoyles and such the characters choose to hide themselves from the world at large. Because they know it would be more dangerous for them if people knew they existed.

In the OT it was sort of okay for the Turtles to walk around topside because they would wear disguises to conceal what they were. But also people knew they existed...they just didn't care. But public sentiment was on whim so if the public hated them there was generally a reason for it such as Burn Thompson labeling them as public enemy number #1 during red sky.

But the 2k3 the turtles largely didn't reveal themselves to the general public unless there was no other choice. The only times any of the Turtles have been seen by large groups of people they were mistaken for Aliens. Or that episode where they were all meditating before all hell broke loose. The only people who by and large knew they existed was that camp of homeless people. But even then it's questionable as to how may people in the camp knew the Turtles weren't human. The Professor obviously knew they weren't human, but there were those two guys that kept thinking the Turtles were wearing costumes.
Let's not forger the group of humans who are superheroes, that know of there existence, And they keep it a secret.

[victory_angel]

Let's not forger the group of humans who are superheroes, that know of there existence, And they keep it a secret.

Oh yes the Justice Force, the people who let Michelangelo join them essentially said he should report for duty never.

[Commenter 42]

Fine, let's look a little deeper shall we?

Lets use me. Let's say for the sake of argument, I am gay (I'm not, but let's use this to illustrate).

A friend tells me "OMG, it must be so hard to be gay, you know, with the way people treat you and all. Wouldn't you want to be straight, just to see what it's like? Just for one day? You must be so tired of dealing with being gay."

How, in the hell, is that not an offensive ask? Teachable moments be damned, it's just wrong.

Substitute ANYTHING you want for the word Gay, the result is the same.

The issue is people want to cry victim more often then not. They want to scream the world is just unfair, and why me, and boo-hoo and all that.

Playing the victim doesn't solve the problem, when you're blaming the world for what has happened to you. That isn't right, and goes nowhere.

You need to own you, simple as that.

In Silicon Valley, the saying is, "It's not a defect, it's a new feature".
Turn negative to positive, and eventually, anyone who though something was a negative will be in the minority, or disappear completely.

I'm saying everything I am because the subtext matters, and children should be raised to think inclusion, not exclusion. On Nick, Shredder is the villain, and he says terrible things about mutants. Fine, he's the BAD GUY. That's his job.

The turtles don't need to help out by casting aspersions on themselves.

And as for the "humans would be freaked out" bit...
How many of you would love to see walking talking mutant animals? how popular are animal human hybrids in pop culture? In myths from around the world?

If a cat could talk, online, it would be an instacelebrity. Let's be real.

[TigerClaw]

Fine, let's look a little deeper shall we?

Lets use me. Let's say for the sake of argument, I am gay (I'm not, but let's use this to illustrate).

A friend tells me "OMG, it must be so hard to be gay, you know, with the way people treat you and all. Wouldn't you want to be straight, just to see what it's like? Just for one day? You must be so tired of dealing with being gay."

How, in the hell, is that not an offensive ask? Teachable moments be damned, it's just wrong.

Substitute ANYTHING you want for the word Gay, the result is the same.

The issue is people want to cry victim more often then not. They want to scream the world is just unfair, and why me, and boo-hoo and all that.

Playing the victim doesn't solve the problem, when you're blaming the world for what has happened to you. That isn't right, and goes nowhere.

You need to own you, simple as that.

In Silicon Valley, the saying is, "It's not a defect, it's a new feature".
Turn negative to positive, and eventually, anyone who though something was a negative will be in the minority, or disappear completely.

I'm saying everything I am because the subtext matters, and children should be raised to think inclusion, not exclusion. On Nick, Shredder is the villain, and he sayd terrible things about mutants. Fine, he's the BAD GUY. That's his job.

The turtles don't need to help out by casting aspersions on themselves.

And as for the "humans would be freaked out" bit...
How many of you would love to see walking talking mutant animals? how popular are animal human hybrids in pop culture? In myths from around the world?

If a cat could talk, online, it would be an instacelebrity. Let's be real.
Which is interesting, Cause in ancient Egypt, They worshiped Gods who were basically, half human half animals like Anubis and Bastet

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Anubis_standing.svg/320px-Anubis_standing.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Bastet.svg/320px-Bastet.svg.png

[Commenter 42]

Which is interesting, Cause in ancient Egypt, They worshiped Gods who were basically, half human half animals like Anubis and Bastet

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Anubis_standing.svg/320px-Anubis_standing.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Bastet.svg/320px-Bastet.svg.png

This is my point.

Humanity might actually see themselves as less than, not greater.

[IndigoErth]

Not to mention that people act as if we're the ultimate of what we could ever become. For all we know we'll one day be an outdated model, surpassed by a better version of humanity. Hard to be "better than" if we're not even reaching our full potential (which we apparently can't even accomplish socially among our own species).


I could still see the Turtles taking a "what if" approach out of curiosity, but not in a way of assuming everything would be better for them. There are always trade offs. Even if they woke up one day and found they'd turned human they would very quickly find that some things about their new human life really sucks.

And really, maybe that could be the lesson. That even if they live rather isolated and hidden and understandably might long to be welcome within society, in many ways the grass may still be greener at home.

[TigerClaw]

Another thing I don't think anyone ever mention, Is that the Turtles can outlive the humans, They can live to be way over 100 years old.

[BubblyShell22]

Fine, let's look a little deeper shall we?

Lets use me. Let's say for the sake of argument, I am gay (I'm not, but let's use this to illustrate).

A friend tells me "OMG, it must be so hard to be gay, you know, with the way people treat you and all. Wouldn't you want to be straight, just to see what it's like? Just for one day? You must be so tired of dealing with being gay."

How, in the hell, is that not an offensive ask? Teachable moments be damned, it's just wrong.

Substitute ANYTHING you want for the word Gay, the result is the same.

The issue is people want to cry victim more often then not. They want to scream the world is just unfair, and why me, and boo-hoo and all that.

Playing the victim doesn't solve the problem, when you're blaming the world for what has happened to you. That isn't right, and goes nowhere.

You need to own you, simple as that.

In Silicon Valley, the saying is, "It's not a defect, it's a new feature".
Turn negative to positive, and eventually, anyone who though something was a negative will be in the minority, or disappear completely.

I'm saying everything I am because the subtext matters, and children should be raised to think inclusion, not exclusion. On Nick, Shredder is the villain, and he says terrible things about mutants. Fine, he's the BAD GUY. That's his job.

The turtles don't need to help out by casting aspersions on themselves.

And as for the "humans would be freaked out" bit...
How many of you would love to see walking talking mutant animals? how popular are animal human hybrids in pop culture? In myths from around the world?

If a cat could talk, online, it would be an instacelebrity. Let's be real.

I get what you're saying, Commenter, but there are some people who really do feel this way about their lives because of how they're treated. Some wish to be popular because they don't fit in and things like that. I used to feel this way too until I found my niche with choir and drama club and found what I was good at. I think for the Turtles it's the same thing except they wish they could be human so society could accept them instead of shying away from them. Only a few humans know of them and accept them such as Timothy, Murakami, April, and Casey. Anyone else would shy away from them, so I can see why they would desire it. I agree that sometimes the grass isn't always greener, but I don't know if the Nick show could go as deeply about how humans aren't perfect and how they often treat their own kind as inferior. However, I do think it could work as a story Mikey is writing about how he wishes to be human.

[IndigoErth]

Another thing I don't think anyone ever mention, Is that the Turtles can outlive the humans, They can live to be way over 100 years old.
Doesn't that also depend on species though? I'm far from any kind of turtle expert, but I don't think they all get impressive lifespans compared to us?

[TigerClaw]

Doesn't that also depend on species though? I'm far from any kind of turtle expert, but I don't think they all get impressive lifespans compared to us?
I only know this from reading the Archie series comics, When they did two stories that were set 100 years in the future and we saw the future Turtles.

[IndigoErth]

Ah, my bad, missed you'd said "the Turtles". Haven't read those but recall reading (online) of those suggested age spans.

Writers must have thought they were Galapagos or something :trazz: but being long lived, well 'go Turtles.' :tcool:

[plastroncafe]

Yes, truly.
If there's one thing that humanity has a long standing species history of, it's tolerance of differences.

We can't even treat each other with dignity and respect, so surely we're going to treat hideous freaks of nature that way.
Sure. Yeah, let's go with that.

In fact, let's go with that, and stay as far away from the abomination that is Commentor 42's Devil's Advocate defense as humanly possible.

[victory_angel]

What about the case with Quasimodo in the Disney version of Hunchback of Nortredom.

In the actual book version he goes out of the cathedral rarely because people shun him because of his hideousness. And his experiences with humans also don't help matters as most people view him as a demon because of his misshapen looks.

But in the Disney film he does long for and wishes to live among people and be accepted by them. However his teacher and adoptive father Frollo had taught him that he is safer being away from the rest of the world because it's a cruel and heartless place. And Quasi's experience at the feast of fools proves that right. But later he yells the only reason the world is a wicked place is because of people like him (Frollo).

In the Turtles case, he knows he won't be able to prevent them from visiting the surface. So he does constantly warn them that the world on the surface is dangerous and most people won't understand them or accept them because of what they are. So he trains them in ninjitsu because that is the knowledge he has to pass on to them. However it is also a means in which they can defend themselves.

In actuality they didn't have to be heroes. In most incarnations they could have just as easily felt that anything involving the humans had nothing to do with them. But they chose to fight because they felt it was the right thing to do.

Such as when Splinter is informed an innocent family was abducted because his sons were not prepared to fight as a team. So he feels the best course of action is keep his sons in the lair for a year and train them to fight as a team.

Only for Donnie to say "Excuse me, but have your forgotten there were two people who were kidnapped. They don't have a year. "

Also when April meets the turtles for the first time she doesn't particularly like or trust the turtles right then. But between the Turtles and the goons trying her and her father captive. The only thing she can trust with Donnie right is that he doesn't mean her any harm.

[TigerClaw]

Ah, my bad, missed you'd said "the Turtles". Haven't read those but recall reading (online) of those suggested age spans.

Writers must have thought they were Galapagos or something :trazz: but being long lived, well 'go Turtles.' :tcool:
No need to read it, cause someone did a Motion Comic with audio thing, of the Future Shark Trilogy.

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[Commenter 42]

I get what you're saying, Commenter, but there are some people who really do feel this way about their lives because of how they're treated. Some wish to be popular because they don't fit in and things like that. I used to feel this way too until I found my niche with choir and drama club and found what I was good at. I think for the Turtles it's the same thing except they wish they could be human so society could accept them instead of shying away from them. Only a few humans know of them and accept them such as Timothy, Murakami, April, and Casey. Anyone else would shy away from them, so I can see why they would desire it. I agree that sometimes the grass isn't always greener, but I don't know if the Nick show could go as deeply about how humans aren't perfect and how they often treat their own kind as inferior. However, I do think it could work as a story Mikey is writing about how he wishes to be human.

The fact that some people feel that way about themselves, does not give credence to the argument that the Turtles SHOULD feel that way.

It's imposed upon them, by the viewers interpretation, and I think the stronger idea is to steer away from such suggestions.

What about the case with Quasimodo in the Disney version of Hunchback of Nortredom.

In the actual book version he goes out of the cathedral rarely because people shun him because of his hideousness. And his experiences with humans also don't help matters as most people view him as a demon because of his misshapen looks.

But in the Disney film he does long for and wishes to live among people and be accepted by them. However his teacher and adoptive father Frollo had taught him that he is safer being away from the rest of the world because it's a cruel and heartless place. And Quasi's experience at the feast of fools proves that right. But later he yells the only reason the world is a wicked place is because of people like him (Frollo).




But this is not The Hunchback of Notre Dame. That is a different story, set in a different time.

Yes, truly.
If there's one thing that humanity has a long standing species history of, it's tolerance of differences.

We can't even treat each other with dignity and respect, so surely we're going to treat hideous freaks of nature that way.
Sure. Yeah, let's go with that.


Exactly why becoming Human isn't a plus.


In fact, let's go with that, and stay as far away from the abomination that is Commentor 42's Devil's Advocate defense as humanly possible.

Don't be obtuse. It's one thing to observe and call out injustice, it's quite another to ignore opinions on how to solve them.

[Commenter 42]

Ah, my bad, missed you'd said "the Turtles". Haven't read those but recall reading (online) of those suggested age spans.

Writers must have thought they were Galapagos or something :trazz: but being long lived, well 'go Turtles.' :tcool:

An important distinction. Res live for 25-30 years.

[IndigoErth]

Egads. Well that would be sad.

Ok, so maybe mutation tacked on human-like lifespan in addition to average slider lifespan. Check.


If they turned human but remained long lived, Medicare (and social security if able to have it) would 'love' them... :lol:

[Commenter 42]

Egads. Well that would be sad.

Ok, so maybe mutation tacked on human-like lifespan in addition to average slider lifespan. Check.


If they turned human but remained long lived, Medicare (and social security if able to have it) would 'love' them... :lol:

lol!

So you retired at 65, and we'll send you checks for the next, er 65 years?

[BubblyShell22]

Commenter, I'm not saying the Turtles SHOULD feel that way, but you can't argue that they probably DO feel that way at times. And why shouldn't something like that be explored anyway? I think it would be a good idea given how humans love to treat anyone who is different as pieces of sh*t for being that way, and if someone were to see something like that done in TMNT, they could say, "Hey, I've been there, so I know how they feel." There's nothing wrong with that at all, and I'm surprised you feel that there is something wrong with it.

[Commenter 42]

Commenter, I'm not saying the Turtles SHOULD feel that way, but you can't argue that they probably DO feel that way at times. And why shouldn't something like that be explored anyway? I think it would be a good idea given how humans love to treat anyone who is different as pieces of sh*t for being that way, and if someone were to see something like that done in TMNT, they could say, "Hey, I've been there, so I know how they feel." There's nothing wrong with that at all, and I'm surprised you feel that there is something wrong with it.

There's a breakdown in communication on this.

Have you ever had some say, "What's wrong?" and you say, "Nothing, why?"
A - "Oh, you looked upset"
B - "hmmm, but I'm not"
A - "but seriously, what's bothering you?'
B - "Nothing!"

on and on and on... and typically, the mind starts to wander, and now, surprise, you've found something to be upset about....

I'm talking about perception. I'm talking about how we choose to see ourselves, and how we attach stigmas to life needlessly.

Everyone is a mutant. Each and everyone of us. Not one of us are "equal", (unless you were born an identical twin, and even then differences remain).
Some people are born rich, beautiful, and healthy. Some are not.

In reality, it's our value system that determines positive from negative. The idea that any of the turtles would year to be human is placing value on humanity as "better" than Chelonia-erectus Sapien (yep, made that word up:))

That's my argument. I think it's an attitude that gives way to the suggestion that anyone who feels, or is in anyway different, must conform to societal norms in order to be accepted by society, or at the very least want to change.

it also re-enforces the idea that the general population is allowed to be intolerant, positing that intolerance IS the norm, so it's somehow ok since everyone else is doing it.

Finally, I just don't imagine the thought crossing their minds in this way.
Here's a non offensive example: I've never wanted to be a Gymnast. even if a magic wand was in my hand, and I was told "You could have the body of a Gymnast, right now, and do all the things a gymnast can do." I wouldn't take it. I can look at a Gymnast, and applaud the cool things they do - but it's just not my thing, and it's never crossed my mind to want to be that thing.

Gymnasts, might look at me, and think "he's not one of us, look he can't even summer-sault!" and snicker, but should that force me to change?

That's a super silly example, but that's it.

[victory_angel]

I honestly don't know bout the Turtles wishing to know what it's like to be human and doing the things the humans do. I mean yeah, Mikey is comfortable in his own skin, but he is also interested in doing things humans do that seem fun. Such as getting tattoos, or going to school. Because the Turtles only have the education Splinter was able to give them and at best their home schooled education likely goes to a 6th grade level at best. And anything beyond that has to be independent study.

Leo and Raph are comfortable with who and what they are and they know it's better if they don't encounter humans. But that doesn't mean they don't acknowledge the possibility of some humans being friends with them, after all the only humans who know they exist are April, Casey, Kirby, Murakami, and that nameless little girl that Leo has tea with and Bernie to an extent.

But typically people are going to react in the same manner as the "Guy with the Cat." if they see the turtles.

Donnie has shown that he is self-conscious about being a mutant. He hasn't openly expressed desire to be human. But he has at times regarded his mutation as something he should be ashamed of. Even when he was ranting to the pulverizer about Casey, he comments that April probably liked him because he was human.

What I can see happening instead is the mass public learns of the Turtles existence. So the city (and maybe the EPF) starts and anti-mutant task force.

Because historically while humans treat even their own species as ****. If there are characters that are not seen as human in any regard...typically humans would riot against them.

Take Gargoyles for example...(I know not ninja turtles but it relates) the last official episode of that series the general existence of the Gargoyles was sort of known to the public of New York. And they were later exposed to the general populous one of the humans who were against them used the public hysteria to call together an anti-gargoyle task force (loosely based off the KKK) And the leader of this group would also lead attacks against people who were friends of the Gargoyles or were Gargoyle sympathizers on the grounds that they were traitors to the human race.

With the Turtles, if an anti-mutant task force is brought out. I can see Shredder making use of it to make the Turtles lives a living hell. And also to keep his mutant hench-men in line and punish those who defect.

The Turtles in the mean time would question whether defending the city is worth the effort. While April and Casey would try to reach people to gain a better understanding through mutant sympathizer groups.

[Shark_Blade]

Only if they're naked as humans and not with those ridiculous white thongs from tmnt 3.

[Commenter 42]

I honestly don't know bout the Turtles wishing to know what it's like to be human and doing the things the humans do. I mean yeah, Mikey is comfortable in his own skin, but he is also interested in doing things humans do that seem fun. Such as getting tattoos, or going to school. Because the Turtles only have the education Splinter was able to give them and at best their home schooled education likely goes to a 6th grade level at best. And anything beyond that has to be independent study.

Leo and Raph are comfortable with who and what they are and they know it's better if they don't encounter humans. But that doesn't mean they don't acknowledge the possibility of some humans being friends with them, after all the only humans who know they exist are April, Casey, Kirby, Murakami, and that nameless little girl that Leo has tea with and Bernie to an extent.

But typically people are going to react in the same manner as the "Guy with the Cat." if they see the turtles.

Donnie has shown that he is self-conscious about being a mutant. He hasn't openly expressed desire to be human. But he has at times regarded his mutation as something he should be ashamed of. Even when he was ranting to the pulverizer about Casey, he comments that April probably liked him because he was human.

What I can see happening instead is the mass public learns of the Turtles existence. So the city (and maybe the EPF) starts and anti-mutant task force.

Because historically while humans treat even their own species as ****. If there are characters that are not seen as human in any regard...typically humans would riot against them.

Take Gargoyles for example...(I know not ninja turtles but it relates) the last official episode of that series the general existence of the Gargoyles was sort of known to the public of New York. And they were later exposed to the general populous one of the humans who were against them used the public hysteria to call together an anti-gargoyle task force (loosely based off the KKK) And the leader of this group would also lead attacks against people who were friends of the Gargoyles or were Gargoyle sympathizers on the grounds that they were traitors to the human race.

With the Turtles, if an anti-mutant task force is brought out. I can see Shredder making use of it to make the Turtles lives a living hell. And also to keep his mutant hench-men in line and punish those who defect.

The Turtles in the mean time would question whether defending the city is worth the effort. While April and Casey would try to reach people to gain a better understanding through mutant sympathizer groups.

honestly, there seems to be a hell of a lot of speculation in your post, much of which feels like head cannon, so, I'm not going to debate your personal thoughts about what might happen, only to say that i really don't think, in 2015, people would have the same attitude they did at the time gargoyles was written. Why? Because the internet.

Yes, humans can suck, but they LOVE spectacle more. trending topics online have changed the conversation, especially with meme's like "is this a real dragon" or Grumpy Cat, double rainbow, the mars rover etc. We live in a culture of celebrity, and If I had to speculate, if they were "discovered" (ninja fail :) ) the world would possibly enter the most nauseating turtlemania craze yet - at least for the first few news cycles...Then we'd inevitably swing on back to Kanye and Kim.

I'm not saying everyone and their mom would be thrilled, or that there wouldn't be haters...or opportunists looking to make a buck on mutant turtle meat being some sort of aphrodisiac, or big game hunters after the ultimate prize, or sleazy, greedy, cheap and lazy film producers looking to cash in...............8)

But (if I had to speculate) for the most part, there would be a positive response.

[ssjup81]

Only if they're naked as humans and not with those ridiculous white thongs from tmnt 3.Fundoshi? Traditional Japanese undergarments for samurai? Did they really wear those in movie 3?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

This one of the few times I fully agree with Cybecubed. That episode where Mike turned into a human was one of the worst episodes of the OT because it made zero sense. Especially since somehow, turning human= losing all of your ninja training for some reason. Plus this was pretty much the episode that inspired all those garbage fanfic stories you see online about the Turtles turning into humans. :


Funny, but that's always been one of my favorite episodes. And I never saw it as losing his "ninja skills", but losing his "mutant abilities"- ie, the advantages he had as a turtle.


Personally I think it would be interesting and has potential to advance some threads (like driving home just how alone they are for Raph, giving Leo a glimpse of normality, etc)

I think the primary area that would be touched on is Donnie and April- which if you aren't fond of already would definitely not add any appeal to doing something like this.

In the episode ideas thread I had said that if they were to do it, it may work as part of a retromutagen accident- almost certainly centred on Donatello. He would then see an opportunity not to be a freak and become 'addicted' to the idea of being human- and to the idea that it might give him a real chance with April (lets face it, if it happened at this point it would be stranger if it didnt cross his mind)
He wouldn't lose his ninja skills, but he would be physically weaker and struggle to keep up. Eventually he'd be forced to choose between staying human and 'maybe' having a chance at a normal life, and saving his brothers by returning to normal.

He chooses the latter- lesson learned- April reassures him she likes him as he is, not how he wishes to be.


Strangely enough, this sounds a lot like the plot to one of my fics. I did almost the exact same thing, but with Mikey, and he did it on purpose behind the backs of his brothers. Lot more to it, of course, but you get the idea.


Well it would be interesting to explore what problems they would experience as humans. And would they want to give up being human to go back to being mutants, and if yes, why? How much of their identity is defined by their mutant-ness?

I can certainly see Donnie and Mikey wanting to go human, so that they can be accepted in the human world. We all remember how excited Mikey got hearing about/seeing April's school in "Alien Agenda"- I think that's something that he'd want the chance to experience.

I think that having them lose their ability to ninja correctly would be too goofy- on the other hand, the boys probably wouldn't be as slick as they usually would be given that they would be fighting for the first time without the weight of a shell- which would take some adjustment, given that their weight and balance would now be different.


That is certainly something I took into account for my own version of this type of story. WOULD they want to go back after having had a taste of being human? What would it take to make them choose to do so? And how would they deal with their enemies? Without their shells, they are more vulnerable and probably off-balance for a while until they learned to adapt.


It would be interesting to explore, especially as the idea of Splinter being de-mutated had been batted about in the past. And if he were reunited properly with Karai (once she was de-mutated), would he feel differently about all of them being a normal human family? Would he want to give his daughter a chance at a normal life, after 15 years of being raised by Shredder?

You could also examine the question of whether the Turtles would still be freaks and outcasts, regardless of whether they had human meat-suits or not? We are talking about people who grew up living in a sewer, after all. Would they embrace the "I love being a turtle" ethos as they realize that it's part of who they are, no matter what? Regardless of whether they're human or not, they're still going to have the same enemies- and I think the boys would realize that they can't take on the likes of Shredder and Tigerclaw as effectively without that mutant edge.

They did that in an episode of Gargoyles, actually: "The Mirror" (episode 5, season 2). One of the villains has the gargs turned to humans and the rest of the people in the city turned to gargs.


All very good points- and I feel the Gargoyles episode you mentioned illustrates the point of such a storyline perfectly. Loved that idea, and the episode itself.


Maybe Donnie could look at making them hologram watches, like Nightcrawler had in Xmen: Evolution. And initially they just use them for important stuff but then they start using them all the time and start wishing they actually were human.

And then at the end of the arc they realize that they're better off being who they are than pretending to be something that they aren't.


That is a good idea, actually. Donnie certainly could come up with something like that, and it would be interesting to see them growing addicted to the use of such devices- particularly Mikey!


They'd still feel out of place even though their appearance has changed and they'd still be dealing with the same foes. I think what would end up happening would be that they come to the realization that they'd rather be Turtles.



Well it wouldn't be the first time it's been done. Heck, I've done it myself in one of my own fics, though with different results.


I never like reading Turtles as human stories unless they're very well written. If this were to happen, I'd like for it to be a story Mikey is writing as that would make more sense.


That sounds like a cool idea! And since you mentioned it, any stories in particular you were referring to? Just curious, LOL!


Everyone has wanted to be someone else at some point in their lives. Everyone has felt jealousy, and wished they could inhabit anothers skin, just for a day....

Wish I was taller/shorter/prettier/uglier/smarter/stronger etc...

BUT- that's not my issue. My issue is with the idea you're proposing, which suggests that the Turtles think of themselves as something less than human, and wished to be fully human, like Pinocchio wanting to be a real boy, only to realize that the grass isn't greener...

And that's the problem there. It pre-supposes they think humans are "better" than they are, or that they are "half humans"...



But they DO think of themselves as "less" because that's exactly what they've been TAUGHT that the rest of the world would see them as! They are forced to hide because humans would fear them or not understand them, and already treat those who are different as "less". With their exposure to human culture, the turtles would come to the obvious conclusion that they will never be accepted by humanity as they are. But if they were HUMAN, they would at least be on even footing with the rest of the world, and probably could go places or do things that they can't as mutants- seems like pretty good incentive to WANT to try it to me.


There is one dream sequence in the mirage where Leo falls to his death impaling himself on his own swords. The authorities come and study his corpse and find finger prints on his shell which leads him to realize there are others exist. So they find they lair and attack. Raph is killed trying to defend his family and Donnie, Mikey, and Splinter are lead away to be studied and experimented on.

And there is a constant theme with the shows that have main characters that aren't human. "Human's fear what they don't understand."

Shows like the X-men could get around that because with a few exceptions it's only when they were forcibly revealed that people would fear or turn against them for being mutants.

Shows like Gargoyles and such the characters choose to hide themselves from the world at large. Because they know it would be more dangerous for them if people knew they existed.

In the OT it was sort of okay for the Turtles to walk around topside because they would wear disguises to conceal what they were. But public sentiment was on whim so if the public hated them there was generally a reason for it such as Burn Thompson labeling them as public enemy number #1 during red sky.

But the 2k3 the turtles largely didn't reveal themselves to the general public unless there was no other choice. The only times any of the Turtles have been seen by large groups of people they were mistaken for Aliens. Or that episode where they were all meditating before all hell broke loose. The only people who by and large knew they existed was that camp of homeless people. But even then it's questionable as to how may people in the camp knew the Turtles weren't human. The Professor obviously knew they weren't human, but there were those two guys that kept thinking the Turtles were wearing costumes.


^ All of this. Most incarnations have the turtles being treated as freaks and monsters when they are discovered, and they themselves realize this is the "norm". They don't live in the sewer because they LIKE it there, they do it because most humans (at least those in their right minds, or who don't have to do it for their job) wouldn't go into the sewers, so they are safer living there. They also only go out in disguise for the same reason. To think that they wouldn't be ostracized just for being what they are, or that they wouldn't chafe at the unfairness of that and want to see what it's like "on the other side of the fence", is simply naïve.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Fundoshi? Traditional Japanese undergarments for samurai? Did they really wear those in movie 3?

No, they did not. The three samurai warriors who replaced them in the present time did, however. Apparently, it was the only part of their clothing that wasn't switched onto the turtles. Probably because it was a PG film.

[Commenter 42]

But they DO think of themselves as "less" because that's exactly what they've been TAUGHT that the rest of the world would see them as! They are forced to hide because humans would fear them or not understand them, and already treat those who are different as "less". With their exposure to human culture, the turtles would come to the obvious conclusion that they will never be accepted by humanity as they are.

^ All of this. Most incarnations have the turtles being treated as freaks and monsters when they are discovered, and they themselves realize this is the "norm". They don't live in the sewer because they LIKE it there, they do it because most humans (at least those in their right minds, or who don't have to do it for their job) wouldn't go into the sewers, so they are safer living there. They also only go out in disguise for the same reason. To think that they wouldn't be ostracized just for being what they are, or that they wouldn't chafe at the unfairness of that and want to see what it's like "on the other side of the fence", is simply naïve.

Please read my numerous responses. I feel like I've made my point adnausium.
And not for nothing, but naive ? Come on now.

[ssjup81]

No, they did not. The three samurai warriors who replaced them in the present time did, however. Apparently, it was the only part of their clothing that wasn't switched onto the turtles. Probably because it was a PG film.Oh! Yeah, they did. I'd forgotten that.

[Xav]

But the 2k3 the turtles largely didn't reveal themselves to the general public unless there was no other choice. The only times any of the Turtles have been seen by large groups of people they were mistaken for Aliens. Or that episode where they were all meditating before all hell broke loose. The only people who by and large knew they existed was that camp of homeless people. But even then it's questionable as to how may people in the camp knew the Turtles weren't human. The Professor obviously knew they weren't human, but there were those two guys that kept thinking the Turtles were wearing costumes.And don't forgot the former underground mutants.

[senpai]

I can understand both sides of these arguments. Both make very good points.

In the Nick TMNT, I don't recall any of the turtles ever admitting they'd want to be human. So if they were given the option, I would strongly question whether or not they'd opt for humanity. In fact, I think they are very happy with their differences in appearance. Raphael claims he's the handsome one, and Michelangelo, the cute one. The only character I'd have doubts about is Donnie due to his affection for April. He mentions in an episode--I think it was the Sasquatch one--where Donnie finally decides to give up on his pursuit to be with April. When he tells April this, he sounds truly discomfited to admit that he's "just a mutant." I wouldn't say he's ashamed of being a mutant but, since he is one, it puts an obvious strain on the prospect of being with April. So, what I'm getting at is I think it's not wrong to think the turtles might be curious about being humans for an episode, but I also don't see them caring too much about it either. They seem fairly comfortable with who and what they are.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Please read my numerous responses. I feel like I've made my point adnausium.
And not for nothing, but naive ? Come on now.


I DID read them. In fact, I even quoted you. I just don't agree with that perspective. One of the main themes of the TMNT has always been about how they are isolated and that they are the ONLY ones of their kind, which leaves a very bleak future, as well as the fact that being forced to remain hidden means that they can't have any kind or "normal" lives- or anyone to mourn their passing. That being the case, why WOULDN'T they want to know what being "normal" was like?

And being teens, they would be starting to have desires for mates, families of their own, etc. So the question is really why would they be content with who they are if they could change that? That entire episode of the OT pretty much summed up the reason(s) they would want to be human- and which of them would be most likely to attempt it. Even the OT acknowledged in it's own goofy way that they wanted more from life, and the all the things that go with being "normal".

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I can understand both sides of these arguments. Both make very good points.

In the Nick TMNT, I don't recall any of the turtles ever admitting they'd want to be human. So if they were given the option, I would strongly question whether or not they'd opt for humanity. In fact, I think they are very happy with their differences in appearance. Raphael claims he's the handsome one, and Michelangelo, the cute one. The only character I'd have doubts about is Donnie due to his affection for April. He mentions in an episode--I think it was the Sasquatch one--where Donnie finally decides to give up on his pursuit to be with April. When he tells April this, he sounds truly discomfited to admit that he's "just a mutant." I wouldn't say he's ashamed of being a mutant but, since he is one, it puts an obvious strain on the prospect of being with April. So, what I'm getting at is I think it's not wrong to think the turtles might be curious about being humans for an episode, but I also don't see them caring too much about it either. They seem fairly comfortable with who and what they are.

Comfortable? Well, what else are they supposed to be? It's not like they've ever had a choice before. When you've grown up as a unique "species" like they have, there's not much else to do but "grin and bear it" as it were. But IF they had another option available- one that they probably never even considered possible before, so never thought about- how can we say they wouldn't be interested in that, given the wider range of possibilities it represents? Donnie in particular, but probably the others to varying extents would all have to weigh their options as mutants, versus what they could gain from such a change. Especially when it comes to their future lives. Some have argued that they are secure in their own skins, but that just assumes they LIKE being what they are. It's like a person who is born one gender and grows up knowing that's what they are, and "accepting" it (because they HAVE to) and then suddenly learning that there are ways to become the gender they identify more with. Or in this case, they seem to identify more toward human than turtle in their mentality. If they discovered that it was possible to complete that transition, they might very well be tempted. Because it would make their lives easier.

[senpai]

Comfortable? Well, what else are they supposed to be?

Perhaps 'content' is a better word. And I believe that. You often hear the turtles saying how much they "love being a turtle!" <3

It's like a person who is born one gender and grows up knowing that's what they are, and "accepting" it (because they HAVE to) and then suddenly learning that there are ways to become the gender they identify more with. Or in this case, they seem to identify more toward human than turtle in their mentality. If they discovered that it was possible to complete that transition, they might very well be tempted. Because it would make their lives easier.

I understand. I'm not saying that they won't be tempted; I'm sure they would be very curious to see if the grass is greener.... c: But, c'mon, turtle power. And, also, you're assuming that's how they feel. I'm not so sure if that's the case since none of them in the Nick version have so much as mentioned wanting to be anything besides a mutant. True, Mikey wants more friends than April in the Bradford episode, but even then, he simply wanted a friend--not to change himself. That's just my opinion. And you have a very good one as well, MsMarvelDuckie.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Heh, call me Duckie.

As for them being content, in general they might be, but you have admit that nearly all versions of them have had moments where they felt lonely and "left out" because of it, too. For instance, though many fans deride TMNT III, it drives home the point that at least TWO of them want acceptance and to be treated as equals, and that they know that will never happen in their own time/place. That's why Mikey and Raph wanted to stay behind at first, and only changed their minds when April reminded them that they were a family. Mikey even made the rather pointed- and bitter- snipe that her home was a nice apartment, while his was a sewer. But she mentions them being family, and the look he gets is just sort of dejected and resigned. That felt suspiciously like they were putting their duty to family above what they REALLY wanted. His interactions with Mitsu were in the same vein, trying to make a connection that he could never have made in his own time. Becoming human would simply be an extension of that desire, IMHO. And Nick HAS had subtle hints of this, mostly with Donnie bemoaning that his chances with April are nil due to being what he is- and Raph has made a point to rub it in on numerous occasions.

Mikey wanting a human friend was part of the same need for acceptance- and if you draw that desire out to the logical conclusion, it seems obvious that he would jump all over the chance, just as he did in the OT series. Granted, in that series, he later felt that being human wasn't all it was cracked up to be- but then again, look at what he went through in that episode! Pushed down a skate ramp, crashing and looking like a chump, then gets mud splashed on him from a car and then immediately knocked right back down into the mud. Then he later gets tossed by April, turns back and forth involuntarily at several inopportune moments- the worst being turning human while trying to fight Rocksteady- and nearly getting blown up by the formula from the infamous cookies! After all that, it was no wonder he wanted to go back to the sewer. It was probably safer....

Nick doing something like this would actually be right in line with a lot of that kind of bittersweet introspection and self-examination that has been done in other versions. For some reason, Mikey or Raph always seems to be the go-to turtle for this, but I can see Donnie doing it this time around, because of April. Now, a REAL twist would be having Leo go through this, and then question his duty to his family while experiencing what it's like to be like everyone else. That would make for a VERY strong emotional story, especially when it comes to the conflict between duty and being able to have a life of his own choosing.

[ssjup81]

Heh, call me Duckie.

As for them being content, in general they might be, but you have admit that nearly all versions of them have had moments where they felt lonely and "left out" because of it, too. For instance, though many fans deride TMNT III, it drives home the point that at least TWO of them want acceptance and to be treated as equals, and that they know that will never happen in their own time/place. That's why Mikey and Raph wanted to stay behind at first, and only changed their minds when April reminded them that they were a family. Mikey even made the rather pointed- and bitter- snipe that her home was a nice apartment, while his was a sewer. But she mentions them being family, and the look he gets is just sort of dejected and resigned. That felt suspiciously like they were putting their duty to family above what they REALLY wanted. His interactions with Mitsu were in the same vein, trying to make a connection that he could never have made in his own time. Becoming human would simply be an extension of that desire, IMHO. And Nick HAS had subtle hints of this, mostly with Donnie bemoaning that his chances with April are nil due to being what he is- and Raph has made a point to rub it in on numerous occasions.

Mikey wanting a human friend was part of the same need for acceptance- and if you draw that desire out to the logical conclusion, it seems obvious that he would jump all over the chance, just as he did in the OT series. Granted, in that series, he later felt that being human wasn't all it was cracked up to be- but then again, look at what he went through in that episode! Pushed down a skate ramp, crashing and looking like a chump, then gets mud splashed on him from a car and then immediately knocked right back down into the mud. Then he later gets tossed by April, turns back and forth involuntarily at several inopportune moments- the worst being turning human while trying to fight Rocksteady- and nearly getting blown up by the formula from the infamous cookies! After all that, it was no wonder he wanted to go back to the sewer. It was probably safer....

Nick doing something like this would actually be right in line with a lot of that kind of bittersweet introspection and self-examination that has been done in other versions. For some reason, Mikey or Raph always seems to be the go-to turtle for this, but I can see Donnie doing it this time around, because of April. Now, a REAL twist would be having Leo go through this, and then question his duty to his family while experiencing what it's like to be like everyone else. That would make for a VERY strong emotional story, especially when it comes to the conflict between duty and being able to have a life of his own choosing.I agree with this wholeheartedly. Even though personally, it wouldn't bother me if the show didn't go down this route, it's not too out of the question to imagine that, at times, they could feel this way. What their lives would've been like if they and Splinter could live normally as humans, able to frequent the surface without the fear of scaring people and not having to pretend like they "don't exist", as Leo put it.

For this incarnation, if it came up, I could see it being either Mikey (mainly because of ep 4 and the ep where they went to April's school or the times where they were out during the day and Mikey was enjoying and praising it) or Donnie who does seem to be self-conscious over being a mutant, even if he's not fully aware of it himself, and I got that impression early from the Monkey Brains episode as well as later in season 2 with Fungus Humungous. With the latter, the first thing Shroom April does is get on him for his being a "mutant freak". If it was entirely about romance, I think the Casey stuff would've come up first.

[victory_angel]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Even though personally, it wouldn't bother me if the show didn't go down this route, it's not too out of the question to imagine that, at times, they could feel this way. What their lives would've been like if they and Splinter could live normally as humans, able to frequent the surface without the fear of scaring people and not having to pretend like they "don't exist", as Leo put it.

For this incarnation, if it came up, I could see it being either Mikey (mainly because of ep 4 and the ep where they went to April's school or the times where they were out during the day and Mikey was enjoying and praising it) or Donnie who does seem to be self-conscious over being a mutant, even if he's not fully aware of it himself, and I got that impression early from the Monkey Brains episode as well as later in season 2 with Fungus Humungous. With the latter, the first thing Shroom April does is get on him for his being a "mutant freak". If it was entirely about romance, I think the Casey stuff would've come up first.

I agree, to having a moment where Donnie experiences what it was like to be human. Even if in the end the whole thing is just a dream, he could learn a valuable lesson from it.

I remember a japanese anime version of Brothers Grim's, Beauty and the Beast. And there is one moment where the Beast is pruning his rose bushes when a petal falls into small pond. When he goes to retrieve it he sees his face and is revolted by what he sees. Beauty (or Maria as they were calling her in that version) sees this and feels a sense of compassion for him

It's similar for April in some regard. Before hand Donnie was just a guy she had recently met. And at first she doesn't know really what do about his feelings for her other then ignoring them, however after Monkey Brains she seems to see Donnie in a new light because she sees how vulnerable he is. And how it isn't easy for him to live with his bros or be a mutant in general.

Which made Fungus Humongous rather poignant in that regard.
If it had been someone like Casey, then yes the insults of "Weirdo, three fingered freak..." and such. That would almost be expected because they didn't know or like each other back then...but as it was April who was saying it, that made it all the more painful because she was someone he loved and cared about.

However most people if they see big ugly mutant creature, they don't think "Oh cool, Mutant." They think big ugly creature from the center of hell.

I remember there is a cut scene in the 2007 movie where Mikey is riding home from his job as party entertainment. And he's talking to Don while he's driving one of the drivers notices Mike and starts wondering what he's seeing. He's not scared or anything it's more like he's trying to wrap his brain around whether Mikey is for real or it's just a costume. Don notices this via the dashboard camera and tells Mikey to act like he's wearing a costume.

Which is the case of most of the random humans in the show. Murakami only accepts the Turtles for what they are because he's blind, and the tea party girl wasn't scared of Leonardo because she has a child's innocence and doesn't see Leo as a threat to her.

Pizza guy was more confused then scared when he encountered the Turtles, and Raph didn't help matters.
The guy with the cat sees Mikey and he's like "Ahhh giant mutant turtle."
The random guy that originally owned Speed Demon his reaction was "What happened? Where am I?" Notices Donnie "WHAT ARE YOU?!!"

Bernie is questionable as he was sleep deprived. He essentially thought the turtles were a figment of his insomnia-addled brain as hinted by this convo.

Bernie: Oh my god! Is that tv set on astrovision?

April: What no "giant mutant turtles"?

Bernie: You see them to?

And the ever popular

Bradfords: Did you honestly think a guy like me would want to be friends with a freak like you?!

[ToTheNines]

Haven't read through this whole thread (sorry, lazy) but the last I read of Ross Campbell's Secrets of the Ooze they all got flipped into humans after a portal sucked them into the past.

[BubblyShell22]

Really? Was it a good story?

And, Duckie, I was talking about your story of course and how you handled Mikey being human.

[Commenter 42]

I can understand both sides of these arguments. Both make very good points.

In the Nick TMNT, I don't recall any of the turtles ever admitting they'd want to be human. So if they were given the option, I would strongly question whether or not they'd opt for humanity. In fact, I think they are very happy with their differences in appearance. Raphael claims he's the handsome one, and Michelangelo, the cute one. The only character I'd have doubts about is Donnie due to his affection for April. He mentions in an episode--I think it was the Sasquatch one--where Donnie finally decides to give up on his pursuit to be with April. When he tells April this, he sounds truly discomfited to admit that he's "just a mutant." I wouldn't say he's ashamed of being a mutant but, since he is one, it puts an obvious strain on the prospect of being with April. So, what I'm getting at is I think it's not wrong to think the turtles might be curious about being humans for an episode, but I also don't see them caring too much about it either. They seem fairly comfortable with who and what they are.

I'd say this is a fair.

I DID read them. In fact, I even quoted you. I just don't agree with that perspective. One of the main themes of the TMNT has always been about how they are isolated and that they are the ONLY ones of their kind, which leaves a very bleak future, as well as the fact that being forced to remain hidden means that they can't have any kind or "normal" lives- or anyone to mourn their passing. That being the case, why WOULDN'T they want to know what being "normal" was like?

i know you write fan fiction, and i know you have a deep love for the property, but I think you have to admit that some of your own ideas are coloring this argumen, or head cannon. As Senpai pointed out, Nick has the turtles content, and I think it's much better that way. When you allow your heroes to feel sorry for themselves, they lose their heroic stature, and become victims.

And this bit about normal. Duckie, damn it, normal would mean they were turtles, not mutant turtles. They are not humans trapped in animal bodies (stupid IDW myth origin aside). and now NORMAL IS MUTANT. The Mutation is now their normal.

Once again, we absolutely disagree. You must hate me by now!

[Syb3rStrife]

I actually been thinking about this recently. I think the turtles turning human from some sort of freak mutagens accident for an episode or two would definitely be interesting.

[ToTheNines]

Really? Was it a good story?

He is doing it a page at a time, and on no particular schedule, so it's not done yet. But yeah, so far it's been awesome. They had just turned to humans in the last page or two last I checked. We'll see where it goes.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I'd say this is a fair.

I know you write fan fiction, and i know you have a deep love for the property, but I think you have to admit that some of your own ideas are coloring this argumen, or head cannon. As Senpai pointed out, Nick has the turtles content, and I think it's much better that way. When you allow your heroes to feel sorry for themselves, they lose their heroic stature, and become victims.

And this bit about normal. Duckie, damn it, normal would mean they were turtles, not mutant turtles. They are not humans trapped in animal bodies (stupid IDW myth origin aside). and now NORMAL IS MUTANT. The Mutation is now their normal.



Actually, the REASON I wrote that story in the first place, was that (okay, I'm going back a bit here) I saw that quite plainly WAAY back when the OT was still going, precisely because of episodes like "The Gang's All Here", "Green With Jealousy" and some of the other character spotlight eps. It's not that my "headcanon" colors my perceptions of them, but rather, I saw it long before I HAD any head-canons! (Incidentally, my only real head-canon ideas are that Donnie might actually be a hermie, and that Vernon is gay.)

In fact, their idea of normal in most incarnations is exactly what all of them stated in the OT in Gang's All Here, when they all mentioned their dreams of what they would do if they were "normal teenagers". So it seems obvious that their concept of normal is permanently skewed toward what humans consider normal, not toward being "ordinary turtles". And oddly enough, the thought of turning back into ORDINARY turtles scares them silly! Notice the difference in wording? That's their own words. Tells you a lot about what they would prefer, from a psychological point. NORMAL humans vs ORDINARY turtles- and they use those exact terms more than once in that series.

Mikey does this to a lesser extent in the third film- an example I've already mentioned. He really wanted to remain behind, not only because of Mitsu, but because he felt more comfortable and accepted there! Even Raph made comment about that fact right after Mikey and Leo saved Yoshi from the fire when he asked if the villagers would stop being afraid of them. When everyone bowed to them in respect, they were too stunned to know how to handle it. This is all implicit within the various incarnations, not part of some head-canon.

Understand, I DON'T think they feel sorry for themselves in most respects. They fully understand that they have been given a great gift, but likewise they realize that it comes with a heavy price, and they DO seem to acknowledge that fact on occasion. This is in fact where I think the longing to be "normal teenagers" comes from. Just as Spider-Man has "great power", but knows that it comes with great responsibility. Even HE has sometimes wished he'd never been bitten, so it's not hard to see the turtles wishing they could have what other people around them have- IE, a normal life as fully human teens.

Incidentally, I love the example others used of Mikey at April's school, or his response to Bradford's jab about not being friends with a freak. His expression when Bradford says that sums it all up, IMHO. For that matter, so does Donnie's fear in Fungus Humungous. He is so devastated by April's words in that hallucination that it's clear he has some serious issues related to being different! And he does it several times in the current season, too- every time April and Casey are alone together.

[Lisardo]

They should totally do it, but with all four of them. I doubt the Nick version would be dumb enough to go with the 'their ninja skills are their super power' bs from the original.

I hope they make them react to not having the extra weight on their back.

Yeah that was one of the Fred Wolf version's dumber moves! They loose their ninja "powers" after turning human? They only trained for years. How does it suddenly just 'go away'? The eff!? Anyway it would be cool to see the 3d versions of the turtles turn human. Also, Donnie would REALLY being trying to get with April then!

[Lou 500]

I admit, I want to see this happen but make it a Cinderella situation - only two episodes at most; we don't want the show to become "Teenage Ninjas".

I would like to see how they handle the experience of full humanity, Donnie particularly.