What version did worse?

[Leofan26]

Character wise, interactions or whatever? I remember fans praising the Nick show back when season one was going. I'm curious on every ones opinions now in season three of the show. Please give your opinion, thank you :D

[Powder]

Considering the Fred Wolf series completely neutered the turtles by giving them cookie cutter personalities that go against the source material, that's my answer.
Thanks to that show we'll never see a Michelangelo who writes, a Don with depression/anti-social tendencies, etc.

[Shark_Blade]

Next Mutation of course.

Oooh let's all fall in love with Venus! Terrible script, acting, story, costumes... just ew.

[Powder]

If we're not talking just cartoons, then I change my 'vote' to Bayturtles.

[Redeemer]

If we're not talking just cartoons, then I change my 'vote' to Bayturtles.

More like Bay Aliens :lol:

[CyberCubed]

The Turtles always have likeable personalities and interactions in every series except the 2014 movie and Next Mutation.

[The Coffee Man]

I'm giving my vote to the Next Mutation. Say what you want about 2014 Movie (and I will agree, despite my enjoyment of it, that it was an extremely stupid movie) but at least the turtles had personalities resembling what we're familiar with. The Next Mutation had nothing going for it. The characterization of the four were shoddy, we got a fifth turtle that was a mary sue, and the brotherhood of the turtles was completely destroyed. This show was TMNT at rock bottom. I'll take the modern movie, it's sequel and TMNT III any day over this one.

[Autbot_Benz]

Fred Wolf & Next Mutation

Fred Wolf made everyone a bumbling Idiot and was just too goofy.I like my turtles a bit serious with a bit of humor sometimes.

Next Mutation was just Blah

[turtlefanforever]

Cartoons: nick hands down
all media: Bay turtles.

[CyberCubed]

Fred Wolf made everyone a bumbling Idiot and was just too goofy.I like my turtles a bit serious with a bit of humor sometimes.

LOL, what? The Turtles were never portrayed as idiots or overly goofy in the OT. The plots were goofy, but the Turtles themselves? They acted like adults in that show.

[Prowler]

LOL, what? The Turtles were never portrayed as idiots or overly goofy in the OT. The plots were goofy, but the Turtles themselves? They acted like adults in that show.
Ye even Michelangelo wasn't as goofy compared to later versions of the character. I also prefer FW Raphael to 2k3 Raphael by far. That being said, both started out fine in the first couple of season, but them Mikey became annoying after Battle Nexus and Raph just kept getting more hotheaded and impulsive.

[pferreira]

LOL, what? The Turtles were never portrayed as idiots or overly goofy in the OT. The plots were goofy, but the Turtles themselves? They acted like adults in that show.Yeah I believe Turtles Forever was responsible for committing that representation of the FW Turtles which people base their judgement on.

[plastroncafe]

I didn't need Turtles Forever to have that opinion of the FW Cartoon.

[CyberCubed]

I didn't need Turtles Forever to have that opinion of the FW Cartoon.

Then you must not remember the original cartoon very well. The Turtles themselves were never overly goofy, it was the plots and slapstick humor that made the show goofy.

Even 80's Michaelangelo was far more laid back and never made a constant fool of himself like Nick or 2k3 Mikey did at times.

[plastroncafe]

Or maybe...I just hold a different opinion than you.
Or have higher standards for what constitutes "adult" behavior.

Either way, OT Mike was a ripoff of Sean Penn's Spicoli from "Fast Times at Ridgmont High," a character that did nothing BUT make a fool of himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTSk5cbaZso
CW: Drug use.

Which is not to say that further incarnations didn't further abuse the characterization of Michaelangelo, because...oh they really did, again: In my opinion.
But then, I don't tend to favorably view Mikes that aren't Mirage or First Movie.

[CyberCubed]

Either way, my point is the Turtles themselves weren't overly goofy.

[plastroncafe]

But by your own admission: They were goofy.

[Groovy]

Personally, I think they were wisecracking asskickers in the original cartoon. The cartoon itself is very goofy, but in the context of the show the turtles aren't inherently goofy, or at least not in a negative way, to me anyway.

And if we didn't have that show, we wouldn't have a lot of Turtle things most likely. I dig it better than any other Turtle cartoon by far.

I also love the Mirage comics and the first couple movies, etc.

[GoldMutant]

Coming Out of Our Shells Tour

(hides) I'm such a jerk at times.

[Jephael]

Turtle Tunes and We Wish You a Turtle Christmas!

[billbot85]

Turtle Tunes and We Wish You a Turtle Christmas!

^ This. These were just so bad, even though they were meant for little kids. Let's also not forget Operation Blue Line. :tlol:

Yeah I believe Turtles Forever was responsible for committing that representation of the FW Turtles which people base their judgement on.

I felt this way too. The Fred Wolf Turtles often get a bad rep due to the over-generalization that the show was too goofy/slapstick. Turtles Forever just pissed me off with their portrayal of them Fred Wolf Turtles, and just making them act like babies. Although I do agree that some of the FW seasons, like 3-5 got really silly at times, I feel that many forget what Season 1 of the show was like, and that it did have a pretty serious tone as far as 80's cartoons go.

[pferreira]

I felt this way too. The Fred Wolf Turtles often get a bad rep due to the over-generalization that the show was too goofy/slapstick. Turtles Forever just pissed me off with their portrayal of them Fred Wolf Turtles, and just making them act like babies. Although I do agree that some of the FW seasons, like 3-5 got really silly at times, I feel that many forget what Season 1 of the show was like, and that it did have a pretty serious tone as far as 80's cartoons go.I totally agree. The FW Turtles never tried to be goofy, that's a mistake the 4Kids show made with Mikey as well. They made him act intentionally goofy on purpose in order to generate humour...and...it never really worked. Depends what you can or can't tolerate I guess.

[neatoman]

I feel that many forget what Season 1 of the show was like, and that it did have a pretty serious tone as far as 80's cartoons go.

Season 1 is the first 5 episodes of 194, when you're done with season 1 it's 165 episodes of goofiness with the last 24 returning to a somewhat more serious tone.

You can't pretend season 1 represents the show as a whole. Even when put to gether with the last 3 seasons as the "serious ones", it just makes up 15% of the series.

[CyberCubed]

People need to make the distinction, the original toons plots/stories were goofy, and so were the villains. But the Turtles took themselves seriously.

Of course there were also times where Shredder was more competent than others, but that has to do with different writers. Sometimes Shredder could be beaten by having a pizza thrown at his face, other times the Turtles struggled to take him down in a fair fight.

[neatoman]

People need to make the distinction, the original toons plots/stories were goofy, and so were the villains. But the Turtles took themselves seriously.

Of course there were also times where Shredder was more competent than others, but that has to do with different writers. Sometimes Shredder could be beaten by having a pizza thrown at his face, other times the Turtles struggled to take him down in a fair fight.

Didn't the Turtles break the fourth wall more than Deadpool and fight with random items lying around for comedic effect?

[ssjup81]

Didn't the Turtles break the fourth wall more than Deadpool and fight with random items lying around for comedic effect?Not to the extent you're implying.

[plastroncafe]

There was an extent implied in that? Looked more like a Yes or No question to me.

Look, I get it: No one likes to have their fave knocked down a couple of pegs, but the implication that Turtles Forever some how besmirched the honor of the Wolf cartoon is just...nonsense.

The Wolf cartoon did that itself.

My favorite episode is the Cufflink Caper.
Babyface the Beaver Cleaver? Henchman Wally?
The fact that a high explosive was turned into men's formal wear that was hidden in a pizza maker's house?

That's goofy.

[Andrew NDB]

People need to make the distinction, the original toons plots/stories were goofy, and so were the villains. But the Turtles took themselves seriously.

No, I don't. Using one of these a lot around memory lane lately?

http://www.innevation.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/View-Master-classic-01.jpg

[1987]

Fred Wolf & Next Mutation

Fred Wolf made everyone a bumbling Idiot and was just too goofy.I like my turtles a bit serious with a bit of humor sometimes.

Next Mutation was just Blah

total bs. were you one of the writers behind "turtles forever"?

im tired of people being ignorant and judging the fred wolf series based on their ridiculous representation in "turtles forever" which was a mockery done by 4kids. ok so bebop&rocksteady were portrayed as incompetent and idiotic yea i get that, it was part of their gimmick. but "turtles forever" portrayed everyone in the series that way.

the nick series is the stupid one. c'mon, its a nicktoon! mikey and donny are really stupid in the nick series, mikey looks like an infant and is obnoxious and makes fart jokes and his voice is annoying and hes a midget compare to the other turtles. and donny, the gap in his teeth makes him look soooooo stupid! raph and leo are ateast somewhat decent. though its hard to take leo seriously knowing he's the "pie guy". so this version did worse.

if the fred wolf series lost it's serious tone after season 1 it can be blamed on europe's banning of the word "ninja" and nunchucks, which ruined it for the rest of us too.

either way the fred wolf series is the BEST tmnt cartoon period. the most memorable. the logo is still iconic to this day. the ot is even more successful than the mirage comics. mirage fans who bash the fred wolf series are just mad that it gets more attention :lol: nick and 4kids will be forgotten, but the fred wolf series will always be remembered. ;)

[Mew]

the nick series is the stupid one. c'mon, its a nicktoon! mikey and donny are really stupid in the nick series, mikey looks like an infant and is obnoxious and makes fart jokes and his voice is annoying and hes a midget compare to the other turtles. and donny, the gap in his teeth makes him look soooooo stupid! raph and leo are ateast somewhat decent. though its hard to take leo seriously knowing he's the "pie guy". so this version did worse.
You're a Nick hater? Nice to know. :tgrumble:

[Ninturtle]

total bs. were you one of the writers behind "turtles forever"?

im tired of people being ignorant and judging the fred wolf series based on their ridiculous representation in "turtles forever" which was a mockery done by 4kids. ok so bebop&rocksteady were portrayed as incompetent and idiotic yea i get that, it was part of their gimmick. but "turtles forever" portrayed everyone in the series that way.

the nick series is the stupid one. c'mon, its a nicktoon! mikey and donny are really stupid in the nick series, mikey looks like an infant and is obnoxious and makes fart jokes and his voice is annoying and hes a midget compare to the other turtles. and donny, the gap in his teeth makes him look soooooo stupid! raph and leo are ateast somewhat decent. though its hard to take leo seriously knowing he's the "pie guy". so this version did worse.

if the fred wolf series lost it's serious tone after season 1 it can be blamed on europe's banning of the word "ninja" and nunchucks, which ruined it for the rest of us too.

either way the fred wolf series is the BEST tmnt cartoon period. the most memorable. the logo is still iconic to this day. the ot is even more successful than the mirage comics. mirage fans who bash the fred wolf series are just mad that it gets more attention :lol: nick and 4kids will be forgotten, but the fred wolf series will always be remembered. ;)
The Fred Wolf show isn't the best cartoon. It rarely ever had a running story and most episodes are meh compared to the Nick and 4 kids show. At least those shows have a running plot. Just because a show is more successful doesn't mean it's better, I can't tell you how many times I've heard people who grew up with the 87 cartoon re watch it and realized how the show wasn't all that good.

[Powder]

im tired of people being ignorant

Way to continue the trend, sleepy.

[Ninturtle]

Way to continue the trend, sleepy.

I love irony sometimes.

[GoldMutant]

Worst of all: Probably got skipped over at the beginning of the thread, but the Coming Out of Our Shells Tour has got to be the worst thing of the Ninja Turtles. The costumes are some of the worst to grace the franchise, a majority of the songs are intolerable to listen to, and it's overall just a disgusting waste of time. Essentially, any spin off such as the Christmas special, Operation: Blue Line, and the Turtle Tunes. Heaven forbid they actually do a musical of all things during that time frame. :tcouch:

Otherwise, Turtles 3 for the movies.

Also, I just want to say that though I'm not a fan of the Fred Wolf series, I do respect it for putting the franchise into motion. I really enjoyed the Red Sky seasons and do enjoy the cast and wacky adventures, even if a little too goofy for me personally at times. Each show I feel should be looked at differently as their own and not be compared.

[billbot85]

Season 1 is the first 5 episodes of 194, when you're done with season 1 it's 165 episodes of goofiness with the last 24 returning to a somewhat more serious tone.

You can't pretend season 1 represents the show as a whole. Even when put to gether with the last 3 seasons as the "serious ones", it just makes up 15% of the series.

Never said that Season 1 represents the show as a whole, just saying that it was a great first season to kick off the series. My point is that the FW series doesn't deserve the amount of criticism that it often gets. Seasons 1 and 2 had a lot of great moments. And yes, seasons 3-6 and the European Vacation got really goofy and ridiculous most of the time. There are plenty of episodes in Season 5 alone that I can't stand ("Raphael Vs. the Volcano" among others).

Still, I think all the goofiness was just part of the charm of the FW cartoon that a lot of us enjoyed as kids. I absolutely love all of the dark moments of TMNT in the 2k3 series, Nick series, Mirage, and the 1990 movie. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't like some of the goofy moments in the FW series, it's just a guilty pleasure.

If Turtle Toons and We Wish You a Turtle Christmas don't count as any part of the series, then I'd say it's Turtles III that's considered the worst for me.

[ssjup81]

The Fred Wolf show isn't the best cartoon. It rarely ever had a running story and most episodes are meh compared to the Nick and 4 kids show. At least those shows have a running plot. Just because a show is more successful doesn't mean it's better, I can't tell you how many times I've heard people who grew up with the 87 cartoon re watch it and realized how the show wasn't all that good.It was the 80s. The 90s seemed to start doing ongoing story arcs and stuff with their animated shows and you have to take syndication into consideration too. It had to be set up so that viewers could start watching at any point and understand what's going on...so that's not really the show's fault, but more so the time, even though it carried over into the 90s for this particular series. Of course now, the show wouldn't be considered good since ongoing stories are now the norm and people have easier access to catch up on what they missed. Back then, we were just glad to see the show and if you missed an ep, no problem. No ongoing story other than Krang and Shredder causing trouble trying to free the Technodrome.

So yeah, I feel it's unfair to compare the ongoing story thing, given that practically everything was done in that way at the time...especially shows that were syndicated or started off in syndication.

[pferreira]

It was the 80s. The 90s seemed to start doing ongoing story arcs and stuff with their animated shows and you have to take syndication into consideration too. It had to be set up so that viewers could start watching at any point and understand what's going on...so that's not really the show's fault, but more so the time, even though it carried over into the 90s for this particular series. Of course now, the show wouldn't be considered good since ongoing stories are now the norm and people have easier access to catch up on what they missed. Back then, we were just glad to see the show and if you missed an ep, no problem. No ongoing story other than Krang and Shredder causing trouble trying to free the Technodrome.

So yeah, I feel it's unfair to compare the ongoing story thing, given that practically everything was done in that way at the time...especially shows that were syndicated or started off in syndication.Plus the Fred Wolf cartoon has something the 4Kids and Nick version doesn't have...it's fun! Maybe that's why it's the most successful version. It's like the old argument that people have about the old Battlestar Galactica being better than the remake. You can add as much serialization and realism as you like but if you suck all the fun out of it are you still going to be watching it years to come?

[Ceres]

Plus the Fred Wolf cartoon has something the 4Kids and Nick version doesn't have...it's fun! Maybe that's why it's the most successful version. It's like the old argument that people have about the old Battlestar Galactica being better than the remake. You can add as much serialization and realism as you like but if you suck all the fun out of it are you still going to be watching it years to come?

Just have to agree with this. The humour and goofyness were the good things that made the FW Cartoon much more enjoyable as the Nick one currently.

[plastroncafe]

When the Nick Version is on its game? It is fun. I'd go so far as to say more fun than the FW version, because it's got better production values on its side.

Time will tell if the cg animation weathers well, but it's leaps and bounds better than the Wolf animation, which hasn't aged well at all.

[Netkeeper]

I personally feel 2k12 is worse than 87. I'd much rather watch 87 if given the choice.

[jenna]

Biggest TMNT abomination ever = Fast Forward. *shudder*

It just had no essence of the turtles left. At least FW, Next Mutation and PD had *some* essence of the turtles, albeit in small doses. Fast Forward was just.... Nothingness. Maybe the disappointment of it was amplified by the fact it followed the legendary first 4 seasons of 4Kids, which was so good, but.... No. Sorry. Can't do it. I can't make any excuses for it. It was just the most terrible heap of tripe. No redeeming features whatsoever.

I'd take PD over FF any day and as for FW and TNM, I like to watch them when I'm drunk.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Biggest TMNT abomination ever = Fast Forward. *shudder*

It just had no essence of the turtles left. At least FW, Next Mutation and PD had *some* essence of the turtles, albeit in small doses. Fast Forward was just.... Nothingness. Maybe the disappointment of it was amplified by the fact it followed the legendary first 4 seasons of 4Kids, which was so good, but.... No. Sorry. Can't do it. I can't make any excuses for it. It was just the most terrible heap of tripe. No redeeming features whatsoever.

I'd take PD over FF any day and as for FW and TNM, I like to watch them when I'm drunk.

Really? NM AND PD? I respectfully disagree.

I personally feel 2k12 is worse than 87. I'd much rather watch 87 if given the choice.

Why do you prefer 87 over 2012?

[Autbot_Benz]

total bs. were you one of the writers behind "turtles forever"?

im tired of people being ignorant and judging the fred wolf series based on their ridiculous representation in "turtles forever" which was a mockery done by 4kids. ok so bebop&rocksteady were portrayed as incompetent and idiotic yea i get that, it was part of their gimmick. but "turtles forever" portrayed everyone in the series that way.

the nick series is the stupid one. c'mon, its a nicktoon! mikey and donny are really stupid in the nick series, mikey looks like an infant and is obnoxious and makes fart jokes and his voice is annoying and hes a midget compare to the other turtles. and donny, the gap in his teeth makes him look soooooo stupid! raph and leo are ateast somewhat decent. though its hard to take leo seriously knowing he's the "pie guy". so this version did worse.

if the fred wolf series lost it's serious tone after season 1 it can be blamed on europe's banning of the word "ninja" and nunchucks, which ruined it for the rest of us too.

either way the fred wolf series is the BEST tmnt cartoon period. the most memorable. the logo is still iconic to this day. the ot is even more successful than the mirage comics. mirage fans who bash the fred wolf series are just mad that it gets more attention :lol: nick and 4kids will be forgotten, but the fred wolf series will always be remembered. ;)

Stop being a fred wolf Buttkisser. 4 Kids and Nick Turtles are better than the goofy fred wolf show in everything. Again this is a thread based on Opinion. My Opinion is Fred Wolf did it worse. Now go get some Preperation H for that butthurt your feeling. Your crappy fred wolf cartoon was only created to help Playmates sell toys.

[jenna]

Really? NM AND PD? I respectfully disagree.


Don't get me wrong, neither are top of my list. They have their own brands of dreadful also, but... there are elements to both that I enjoy, whereas... Fast Forward - watching that was physically painful.

[Metalwolf]

Turtles Forever actually did the worst. No other iteration besides this has actively gone out, flop or not, and made mean fun of another version.

I'm not talking about a sly jab once in a while or a tongue-in-cheek parody, but showing the Fred Wolf Turtles acting unnaturally cowardly, goofy, or whatever, while having the 2k3 Turtles be the 'adults' that have to wrangle those silly kids. Fred Wolf Turtles may have acted goofy, but they were never that goofy.



And the worst of it all? This movie is only really liked by so many because it contains the Fred Wolf Turtles. It's the worst irony, the one movie that shows them in the least nicest light, being 'forgiven' for this major flaw because Fred Wolf fans are desperate for anything containing the Fred Wolf Turtles.

That's the other reason why I hate this movie so, other then it's crappy meta thematics and the introduction of a TMNT *sighs* multiverse. :roll:

[Powder]

It's a freaking parody for Pai Doth Noor's sake. People like it because it's enjoyable & pokes fun at the past, not because of some desperation. & I'm fairly sure the idea of a multiverse was played with before this film came out, given there were various alternate takes on the TMNT in Mirage lore.

[Leo656]

Yeah those are non-complaints, truthfully. That movie was clever.

[Bry]

So we're doing this dance again?

Yeah, the FW Turtles and their world were portrayed as silly and goofy. Yeah, it was a bit of an exaggeration... but only a bit of one. Seriously, go back and check out the weaker seasons of that show, which actually make up most of the series. It's not far off.

That said, they made a point to show the FW Turtles' goofiness totally saving the day more than once. '87 Donnie's silly inventions completely bailed them out multiple times, despite 4Kids Donnie, in his comparative self-seriousness, not understanding them or accepting their value. Bebop and Rocksteady's bumbling killed the Utrom Shredder when everything else failed. They had some fun playing the silly '87 show off of the comparatively serious 2003 show, but the message seemed pretty damn clear to me - they both have their place and they both do what they do well, and you can embrace them both and be happier for it.

IMO, the only real "problem" with Turtles Forever is that some defensive Fred Wolf fans can't see the forest for the trees.

[Leo656]

http://www.wehoville.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Iron-Sheik-300x206.jpg
"EX-ZACK-LY!

[Commenter 42]

"Why is he narrating, is he crazy?"

Best line, ever.

How could you not love this movie for the Mirage scene alone?

C'mon guy!

[Bry]

"Why is he narrating, is he crazy?"

Best line, ever.

How could you not love this movie for the Mirage scene alone?

C'mon guy!

So good.

Like, really. If someone's not getting caught up on one specific perceived slight, they should realize that each included version is getting some good-natured fun poked at it. It's a parody and a love letter rolled into one, and it trusts the audience gets the point.

[Commenter 42]

It was a fitting goodbye from Laird and the team, similar to the end of Seinfeld, or Bill Waterson's last strip.

Nick takes a similar approach, which is to say, respectful.

Most of FW was pretty cringeworthy, watching it as and adult can be almost painful. I really only care for the six episode arc in season 1. Everything else was pretty meh, especially with the drop in animation quality, though Krang and Shredder have some great back and forths.

[Shark_Blade]

Biggest TMNT abomination ever = Fast Forward. *shudder*

It just had no essence of the turtles left. At least FW, Next Mutation and PD had *some* essence of the turtles, albeit in small doses. Fast Forward was just.... Nothingness. Maybe the disappointment of it was amplified by the fact it followed the legendary first 4 seasons of 4Kids, which was so good, but.... No. Sorry. Can't do it. I can't make any excuses for it. It was just the most terrible heap of tripe. No redeeming features whatsoever.

I'd take PD over FF any day and as for FW and TNM, I like to watch them when I'm drunk.

Agree. Fast Forward was just so awful, I don't intend to watch a single episode from that season, ever. So dull and void of tmnt element.

Turtles Forever actually did the worst. No other iteration besides this has actively gone out, flop or not, and made mean fun of another version.

I'm not talking about a sly jab once in a while or a tongue-in-cheek parody, but showing the Fred Wolf Turtles acting unnaturally cowardly, goofy, or whatever, while having the 2k3 Turtles be the 'adults' that have to wrangle those silly kids. Fred Wolf Turtles may have acted goofy, but they were never that goofy.



And the worst of it all? This movie is only really liked by so many because it contains the Fred Wolf Turtles. It's the worst irony, the one movie that shows them in the least nicest light, being 'forgiven' for this major flaw because Fred Wolf fans are desperate for anything containing the Fred Wolf Turtles.

That's the other reason why I hate this movie so, other then it's crappy meta thematics and the introduction of a TMNT *sighs* multiverse. :roll:

Agree as well. Such disrespectful treatment. I'm glad that's the end of 2k3 series. Good riddance bad garbage.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

PD is the bad garbage, my friend. It hadn't a clue what it wanted to be.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

PD is the bad garbage, my friend. It hadn't a clue what it wanted to be.

You know, it's funny. I enjoyed the 2014 movie, but I have absolutely no desire to watch it again.

2k3, on the other hand I could re watch any time.

[Yabuturtle]

But by your own admission: They were goofy.

Not really. They did silly things in the 80s cartoon but they themselves weren't silly. They didn't constantly laugh and joke around when they were in actual danger. Turtles Forever not only depicted them even goofier, but flat out idiots. i.e. wanting to have lunch instead of conversing with their 03 counter parts and walking out in broad daylight with no disguise to get pizza, which they stole, because well, the cook ran away due to fear of seeing the turtles and you see the turtles eating pizza.

None of them had consistent personalities, as they all acted idiotic. Like bringing pizzas and sunscreen when going to fight the Technodrome which they wouldn't do. I remember people saying that they didn't act like the 1980s Turtles at all but instead acted more like the TMNT 3 Version of turtles which is far more accurate. I've seen the 80s cartoon, and they actually had consistent personalities, took things seriously and so forth. So no they weren't "goofy" in the 87 cartoon. Turtles Forever depicted them rather out of character, but yet the other counterparts remained in character so I don't know why. Even villains like Shredder and Krang were taken out easily and just sort of hang in the background. Granted there were times where Shredder and Krang were taken out easily in the 87 cartoon, but a lot of the time, they were shown to be dangerous and competent fighters, and even took down the Turtles in combat before.

[Shark_Blade]

PD is the bad garbage, my friend. It hadn't a clue what it wanted to be.It wanted to be a box office smash hit, and it did.

http://i.imgur.com/IHHKT6h.gif

[pferreira]

None of them had consistent personalities, as they all acted idiotic. Like bringing pizzas and sunscreen when going to fight the Technodrome which they wouldn't do. I remember people saying that they didn't act like the 1980s Turtles at all but instead acted more like the TMNT 3 Version of turtles which is far more accurate. I've seen the 80s cartoon, and they actually had consistent personalities, took things seriously and so forth. So no they weren't "goofy" in the 87 cartoon. Turtles Forever depicted them rather out of character, but yet the other counterparts remained in character so I don't know why. Even villains like Shredder and Krang were taken out easily and just sort of hang in the background. Granted there were times where Shredder and Krang were taken out easily in the 87 cartoon, but a lot of the time, they were shown to be dangerous and competent fighters, and even took down the Turtles in combat before.I totally agree. I think in regards to the characterisation of the FW Turtles compared to the 4Kids Turtles it had to do with the production crew being involved with the latter series. Thy could write the 4Kids Turtles easily because they just came off the back of seven seasons of that show whereas FW Turtles are all from memory and their memory of the FW Turtles was probably that it was just a goofy show. They would have gone to Peter Laird for input on them and as he doesn't really like the Fred Wold cartoon that much...well you can see what they did there. :roll:

[Metalwolf]

So for those of us that didn't like the TF movie, would you still consider it 'canon?'

[CowabungaMikey]

So for those of us that didn't like the TF movie, would you still consider it 'canon?'

I personally don't really like TF because how they handeled the 87 Turtles, but I still consider it canon, yes.

[Yabuturtle]

I totally agree. I think in regards to the characterisation of the FW Turtles compared to the 4Kids Turtles it had to do with the production crew being involved with the latter series. Thy could write the 4Kids Turtles easily because they just came off the back of seven seasons of that show whereas FW Turtles are all from memory and their memory of the FW Turtles was probably that it was just a goofy show. They would have gone to Peter Laird for input on them and as he doesn't really like the Fred Wold cartoon that much...well you can see what they did there. :roll:

I agree. It's probably from memory. I'm not going to lie, some of the goofiest things have come from the FW cartoon, but there were serious moments in it, they did face actual danger. They didn't fight Care Bears villains, they fought world destroying vehicles, giant robots, ninjas, mutants and so forth. I know Peter Laird doesn't like the FW cartoon, but it doesn't mean he has to bash it either, to make the other series look better. Just depict them the way they were depicted, not make a mockery of them.

But others will say "lolz, take off your nostalgia goggles" I never had goggles to begin with. I see the show for what it is. It had goofy moments, silly stuff but good action, drama, and so forth. And they had actual personalities that were different, rather than all of the Turtles being cowardly idiots. I think the biggest insult is when 03 Raph saved them from being squashed by 03 Shredder and then, start crying out of fear and start hugging 03 Raph. Really? Depicting them in such a stupid manner is pathetic. It wouldn't be so bad if they actually depicted the goofy moments and things they'd do and did it accurately, not exaggerate it a hundred fold. But the 03 Turtles had annoying moments in the movie, too, like saying "What the shell" every five minutes.

It didn't really have the 87 Turtles do THAT much anyway except sort of fight and move the plot a little, but it was really about the 03 Turtles with the 87 Turtles being guest stars. It was really an 03 Turtle plot, the 03 Shredder was the main villain, 03 Turtles did most of the action and were the competent ones ect.

[Wesley]

I personally feel 2k12 is worse than 87. I'd much rather watch 87 if given the choice.

I agree. It's probably from memory. I'm not going to lie, some of the goofiest things have come from the FW cartoon, but there were serious moments in it, they did face actual danger. They didn't fight Care Bears villains, they fought world destroying vehicles, giant robots, ninjas, mutants and so forth. I know Peter Laird doesn't like the FW cartoon, but it doesn't mean he has to bash it either, to make the other series look better. Just depict them the way they were depicted, not make a mockery of them.

But others will say "lolz, take off your nostalgia goggles" I never had goggles to begin with. I see the show for what it is. It had goofy moments, silly stuff but good action, drama, and so forth. And they had actual personalities that were different, rather than all of the Turtles being cowardly idiots. I think the biggest insult is when 03 Raph saved them from being squashed by 03 Shredder and then, start crying out of fear and start hugging 03 Raph. Really? Depicting them in such a stupid manner is pathetic. It wouldn't be so bad if they actually depicted the goofy moments and things they'd do and did it accurately, not exaggerate it a hundred fold. But the 03 Turtles had annoying moments in the movie, too, like saying "What the shell" every five minutes.

It didn't really have the 87 Turtles do THAT much anyway except sort of fight and move the plot a little, but it was really about the 03 Turtles with the 87 Turtles being guest stars. It was really an 03 Turtle plot, the 03 Shredder was the main villain, 03 Turtles did most of the action and were the competent ones ect.

I agree. The OT isn't as good as I remembered it as a kid, but seasons 1, 2, 7, 8, 9 and 10 had a slightly serious tone along with some other episodes in the series. I think the 1987 characters were protrayed as serious. It was just that a lot of the plots were silly. The cartoon was on air for too long, though, and could've been condensed into five seasons. I would have enjoyed Turtles Forever more if the FW Turtles were a bit competent. They said jokes every now and then in the OT, but I liked that because I thought it showed that they weren't afraid no matter what dangerous situation they were in.

[CyberCubed]

Don't get me wrong, neither are top of my list. They have their own brands of dreadful also, but... there are elements to both that I enjoy, whereas... Fast Forward - watching that was physically painful.

Fast Forward had tons of great episodes. Did it matter the animation was worse and some catch phrases were thrown in the mix?

I don't see how you can find FF painful and claim it had no elements that made TMNT...TMNT. Its an extended Turtles in Space arc. The Turtles fight aliens and have sci-fi elements in every incarnation.

[turtlefanforever]

Fast Forward had tons of great episodes. Did it matter the animation was worse and some catch phrases were thrown in the mix?

I don't see how you can find FF painful and claim it had no elements that made TMNT...TMNT. Its an extended Turtles in Space arc. The Turtles fight aliens and have sci-fi elements in every incarnation.

yeah, i really liked fast forward. Characters from that show are some of my most sought after figures.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

It wanted to be a box office smash hit, and it did.

http://i.imgur.com/IHHKT6h.gif

Box office money isn't everything.

[Metalwolf]

I personally don't really like TF because how they handeled the 87 Turtles, but I still consider it canon, yes.Ah, was just curious. I'm used to 'personal canons' from being a Star Wars fan for so long (especially with it's 'tiered' canon levels) so I didn't know if folks were prone to accepting everything as canon instead of just parts they liked. ;)

[1987]

Stop being a fred wolf Buttkisser. 4 Kids and Nick Turtles are better than the goofy fred wolf show in everything. Again this is a thread based on Opinion. My Opinion is Fred Wolf did it worse. Now go get some Preperation H for that butthurt your feeling. Your crappy fred wolf cartoon was only created to help Playmates sell toys.

your avatar is 2k3 casey so clearly your are a 2k3 fanboy defending your precious 2k3 turtles cause they were the cool guys in turtles forever, cause it was their show theyre the best turtles ever in their universe. they knew they were going out being bought by nick so they wanted to take their anger out by using the ot turtles as punching bags to try and make themselves look cooler and better. so you can take your preparation h and....ill stop right there


Turtles Forever actually did the worst. No other iteration besides this has actively gone out, flop or not, and made mean fun of another version.

I'm not talking about a sly jab once in a while or a tongue-in-cheek parody, but showing the Fred Wolf Turtles acting unnaturally cowardly, goofy, or whatever, while having the 2k3 Turtles be the 'adults' that have to wrangle those silly kids. Fred Wolf Turtles may have acted goofy, but they were never that goofy.



And the worst of it all? This movie is only really liked by so many because it contains the Fred Wolf Turtles. It's the worst irony, the one movie that shows them in the least nicest light, being 'forgiven' for this major flaw because Fred Wolf fans are desperate for anything containing the Fred Wolf Turtles.

That's the other reason why I hate this movie so, other then it's crappy meta thematics and the introduction of a TMNT *sighs* multiverse. :roll:


i agree with this 100%. turtles forever was just a big slap in the face to the ot who made them what they are. ungrateful 4kids. i woulda rather them never resurrect the ot turtles instead of portraying them as complete idiots.

It's a freaking parody for Pai Doth Noor's sake. People like it because it's enjoyable & pokes fun at the past, not because of some desperation. & I'm fairly sure the idea of a multiverse was played with before this film came out, given there were various alternate takes on the TMNT in Mirage lore.

its not just a simple parody poking fun at the ot, its a downright mean-spirited mockery of the ot just to boost the 2k3 show's ego as they were on their way out. the ot turtles were the 2k3 turtles's punching bag
in turtles forever.

i am shocked and appalled at how many defenders of turtles forever there are, how can you not see the harm that the 2k3 show was trying to inflict on the ot? i hate turtles forever with a passion!

[THGhost]

Definitely the FW and Next Mutation series.

The Turtles always have likeable personalities and interactions in every series except the 2014 movie and Next Mutation.

I quite liked Mikey from the 2014 movie, Raph was cool too. :P

[Leo656]

http://www.sistersshoppingonashoestring.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Johnsons-Baby-Powder-Sweeps.jpg

That might be enough to handle, maybe, HALF of this thread.

TF was fine. "Satire" is a thing and it was good-natured. Act your age.


Agree as well. Such disrespectful treatment. I'm glad that's the end of 2k3 series. Good riddance bad garbage.
NEWS FLASH!
Person Who Is Wrong About Everything Continues To Be Wrong About Everything! Film at 11.

[Yabuturtle]

http://www.sistersshoppingonashoestring.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Johnsons-Baby-Powder-Sweeps.jpg

That might be enough to handle, maybe, HALF of this thread.

TF was fine. "Satire" is a thing and it was good-natured. Act your age.


NEWS FLASH!
Person Who Is Wrong About Everything Continues To Be Wrong About Everything! Film at 11.

Let's not exaggerate.

TF was alright. I don't despise it, but no, I can't say I like the way they depicted the 87 turtles. Aside from being out of character, they were idiotic and annoying anyway and didn't do much to begin with, even if they were in character.

If this was supposed to be a PARODY, it'd be fine, but honestly, I think they mostly forgot how they were supposed to be portrayed.

[Gunpowder]

I liked Nick's iteration a lot more in season 1 than I do now. The second half of season 2 was weak aside from about 4 episodes...but it's starting to pick up again now, I think.

Overall, I think the 'worst' version was '87, since it flattened every character and made the villains non-threatening. That was for the sake of being accessible to the younger demographic, and it was because of those changes (and the resulting popularity of the show) that TMNT's relevance has yet to die out. But I still consider the original cartoon the weakest...waaaay too much slapstick for my liking.

Also, I for one enjoyed the Turtles' personalities in NM. It was Venus and her "mind powers" that I didn't like. And in the Bay film, there wasn't enough substance to the Turtles for me to accurately say that "they got them wrong." I liked Raph & Donnie in that, and if they'd been given more time to speak, I probably would've liked them a lot more.

I'm glad that's the end of 2k3 series. Good riddance bad garbage.

Get out.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Seems like a lot of butthurt nostalgic FW fans hate 2K3 for pretty accurate comparisons between the FW TMNT and the 2K3 TMNT.

Ah, fandom... making fans look bad since Al Gore first invented the internet.

Reviewing this thread, it's kinda hard picking between the various terrible incarnations of the Turtles.

#1 Fred Wolf TMNT is a pretty lousy show to watch without nostalgic rose-colored glasses, but it created about 95% of us fans and enabled TMNT to endure as a brand. So I can't give it all my hate.

#2 Platinum Dunes' movie was atrocious, with a script that got run through a shredder (irony!) before a squirrel on LSD crapped all over it. But the four actors who played the Turtles did the best they could with what they had, and provide the only watchable parts of the movie. So I can't give it all my hate.

#3 Fast Forward / Back to the Sewers was the collapse and bitter end of what had previously been an awesome series and IMO the best animated version of the TMNT ever. But it did follow an incredible four seasons and one okay season, so again, I can't give it all my hate.

#4 The Next Mutation? All my hate. All of it, right here. Shame on you and your plastron cleavage!

[Powder]

#2 Platinum Dunes' movie was atrocious, with a script that got run through a shredder (irony!) before a squirrel on LSD crapped all over it. [/B]

C'mon, don't give them so much credit. A hallucinating rodent could produce far more entertaning material than they ever will.

In fact...

https://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln7y80cZA51qeegbeo1_500.gif

...one already has.

;)

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

C'mon, don't give them so much credit. A hallucinating rodent could produce far more entertaining material than they ever will.

In fact...

https://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ln7y80cZA51qeegbeo1_500.gif

...one already has.

;)

True, true... after all, Splinter was given psychotropic drugs and HE came up with a brilliant story about being a reincarnated Japanese warrior! :twink:

[Leo656]

Turtle Tunes is the worst ANYTHING EVER since the f***ing Grateful Dead.

[Yabuturtle]

Seems like a lot of butthurt nostalgic FW fans hate 2K3 for pretty accurate comparisons between the FW TMNT and the 2K3 TMNT.

Ah, fandom... making fans look bad since Al Gore first invented the internet.

Reviewing this thread, it's kinda hard picking between the various terrible incarnations of the Turtles.

#1 Fred Wolf TMNT is a pretty lousy show to watch without nostalgic rose-colored glasses, but it created about 95% of us fans and enabled TMNT to endure as a brand. So I can't give it all my hate.

#2 Platinum Dunes' movie was atrocious, with a script that got run through a shredder (irony!) before a squirrel on LSD crapped all over it. But the four actors who played the Turtles did the best they could with what they had, and provide the only watchable parts of the movie. So I can't give it all my hate.

#3 Fast Forward / Back to the Sewers was the collapse and bitter end of what had previously been an awesome series and IMO the best animated version of the TMNT ever. But it did follow an incredible four seasons and one okay season, so again, I can't give it all my hate.

#4 The Next Mutation? All my hate. All of it, right here. Shame on you and your plastron cleavage!

I love the Fred Wolf Cartoon but I don't hate the 03 version. In some ways, the 03 version is better. FW Cartoon is silly but it's still good to watch. It had some decent action, funny jokes, especially great 4th wall jokes and so forth.

I don't know why people think the 2014 movies was the worst thing ever. Strangely, I prefer it even more than the 2007 version as that had a ton of plot holes and out of character scenes and pointless moments but the 2007 version wasn't horrible TMNT 3 movie was far more annoying and idiotic to me. I don't hate Turtles Forever but seeing the 87 turtles' personalities extremely exaggerated and out of character is a bit distracting. Not to mention some major plot holes, involving both universes is again distracting, but it was alright.

Some might prefer 03 because it's closer to the comic, and it is compared to the 87 series, but that doesn't make it better just because it's closer to the source material, and the original is not always the best either. The comic is good but I don't think it's the best version of the Turtles. The only series I think that was actually bad was Next Mutation.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I love the Fred Wolf Cartoon but I don't hate the 03 version. In some ways, the 03 version is better. FW Cartoon is silly but it's still good to watch. It had some decent action, funny jokes, especially great 4th wall jokes and so forth.

I don't know why people think the 2014 movies was the worst thing ever. Strangely, I prefer it even more than the 2007 version as that had a ton of plot holes and out of character scenes and pointless moments but the 2007 version wasn't horrible TMNT 3 movie was far more annoying and idiotic to me. I don't hate Turtles Forever but seeing the 87 turtles' personalities extremely exaggerated and out of character is a bit distracting. Not to mention some major plot holes, involving both universes is again distracting, but it was alright.

Some might prefer 03 because it's closer to the comic, and it is compared to the 87 series, but that doesn't make it better just because it's closer to the source material, and the original is not always the best either. The comic is good but I don't think it's the best version of the Turtles. The only series I think that was actually bad was Next Mutation.

No, what makes 2K3/4Kids better is that it took itself mostly seriously, told a linear story, and wasn't in the 80s. :tlol:

[Yabuturtle]

No, what makes 2K3/4Kids better is that it took itself mostly seriously, told a linear story, and wasn't in the 80s. :tlol:

It did take itself more seriously, but again that doesn't make it a better show. It's just means it's more serious. You could have something totally serious and be awful. Thankfully the 03 version wasn't bad. 87 series had some linear moments where characters would return and have two part or 3 part episodes but the 03 was more linear. It could be made in the 50s and it wouldn't matter, as long as it was good, but yes there are some dated moments there. Nevertheless it's not like the 87 was devoid of seriousness. There were dramatic moments, and people even died in that series as well. It was more humorous than 03 but 03 did have funny moments, too. Both series had it's best and worst moments.

[Wesley]

No, what makes 2K3/4Kids better is that it took itself mostly seriously, told a linear story, and wasn't in the 80s. :tlol:

Agreed. I still like the OT, but it's not as good as I remembered it as a kid. Nearly half of the episodes are still fun to watch in small doses, though, in my opinion, but it was on air for too long and could've been condensed into five seasons. I prefer 03, as it had better characterisation and story arcs. It was also based on the original Mirage Comics and has aged well. The OT had some good characterisation and story arcs in a few seasons like one, two and eight, though. 03 wasn't devoid of humour, though, and there was some comic relief over the course of that series.

[Bry]

I don't know why people think the 2014 movies was the worst thing ever. Strangely, I prefer it even more than the 2007 version as that had a ton of plot holes and out of character scenes and pointless moments...

Look, I'm not going to pretend the 2007 movie is a major high point for the property or filmmaking in general. Its plot was definitely half-baked, and as a whole it needed another draft or two at the script stage to really come together. But it did have a plot, and it did tell a story. I'm still not convinced that BayTurtles had a plot at all. What it had was dozens of plot holes, contradictions and random idiocy racing around and crashing into each other at 100 mph, leaving a charred, ugly mess of a "movie" in its wake.

[THGhost]

No, what makes 2K3/4Kids better is that it took itself mostly seriously, told a linear story, and wasn't in the 80s. :tlol:

Hear hear! Plus it followed the comics pretty faithfully too.

[Gunpowder]

No, what makes 2K3/4Kids better is that it took itself mostly seriously, told a linear story, and wasn't in the 80s. :tlol:

Yes, yes, and yes. There were quite a few filler episodes butted up against that story, but every bit of it was enjoyable imo. And when sh*t got real, it got REAL. :tlol:

Laird directing = more loyal to source material in nearly every way possible

[Yabuturtle]

Look, I'm not going to pretend the 2007 movie is a major high point for the property or filmmaking in general. Its plot was definitely half-baked, and as a whole it needed another draft or two at the script stage to really come together. But it did have a plot, and it did tell a story. I'm still not convinced that BayTurtles had a plot at all. What it had was dozens of plot holes, contradictions and random idiocy racing around and crashing into each other at 100 mph, leaving a charred, ugly mess of a "movie" in its wake.

They had plots and some are better than others. I don't know why it's called BayTurtles. Michael Bay didn't even write it or direct it, just produced it. I'm not a huge fan of Michael Bay either though, but people act as if he wrote it or directed it which he didn't. Turtles having jobs, Leonardo leaving so he could become a better leader was unexplained. Why did he have to leave? Was there some major moment where Leonardo doubted himself or Splinter thought he wasn't being a good enough leader? And why South America, and how did he get there? Why did they even have jobs to begin with? There's so many things that weren't explained and I felt like I missed something. Even things where Leonardo would criticizes Raph's alter ego for being a vigilante, even though the Turtles were technically vigilantes, not being employed by the law, and their friend Casey Jones was a vigilante, yet they didn't have a problem with him. Leo was rather hypocritical in this movie and not nearly as good as his other counter parts.

[plastroncafe]

The 2007 movie had a lot going for it, from where I'm sitting.
I thought the animation was great. The voice acting was awesome.
It gave me a Leo I could finally tolerate and understand.
The roof-top fight scene is one I'd waited most of my fanboy life for.
And the breakfast scene.

THE BREAKFAST SCENE!
I would watch an entire movie of nothing but those five characters just...being.

But no matter how much I liked all of the above, it was riddled with plot-holes.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

They had plots and some are better than others. I don't know why it's called BayTurtles. Michael Bay didn't even write it or direct it, just produced it. I'm not a huge fan of Michael Bay either though, but people act as if he wrote it or directed it which he didn't. Turtles having jobs, Leonardo leaving so he could become a better leader was unexplained. Why did he have to leave? Was there some major moment where Leonardo doubted himself or Splinter thought he wasn't being a good enough leader? And why South America, and how did he get there? Why did they even have jobs to begin with? There's so many things that weren't explained and I felt like I missed something.

It's called BayTurtles because Platinum Dunes is run by Michael Bay. Things happen or don't happen by his decree. Read some of the other threads, like how Bay was responsible for killing off all the actual Foot ninja and replacing them with terrorists.

[1987]

Seems like a lot of butthurt nostalgic FW fans hate 2K3 for pretty accurate comparisons between the FW TMNT and the 2K3 TMNT.

Ah, fandom... making fans look bad since Al Gore first invented the internet.

Reviewing this thread, it's kinda hard picking between the various terrible incarnations of the Turtles.

#1 Fred Wolf TMNT is a pretty lousy show to watch without nostalgic rose-colored glasses, but it created about 95% of us fans and enabled TMNT to endure as a brand. So I can't give it all my hate.

#2 Platinum Dunes' movie was atrocious, with a script that got run through a shredder (irony!) before a squirrel on LSD crapped all over it. But the four actors who played the Turtles did the best they could with what they had, and provide the only watchable parts of the movie. So I can't give it all my hate.

#3 Fast Forward / Back to the Sewers was the collapse and bitter end of what had previously been an awesome series and IMO the best animated version of the TMNT ever. But it did follow an incredible four seasons and one okay season, so again, I can't give it all my hate.

#4 The Next Mutation? All my hate. All of it, right here. Shame on you and your plastron cleavage!

it seems that a lot of 2k3 fans are butthurt at the fact that us true ot fans are not buying into the bull$hit portrayal of the ot turtles in turtles forever. no it was not a "pretty accurate" portrayal. the turtles never cried like little girls in the ot. even the intro scene is stupid, the ot turtles never all laughed and joked around while they were captured and tied up.

i can tolerate all the other crap they did in turtles forever, but the crying scene, making the ot turtles look like cowards, was really where i drew the line. what if that scene was reversed? what if it was the 2k3 turtles crying like little girls and running to the ot turtles for comfort? i bet that woulda pi$$ed off a lot of 2k3 fans.

[Bry]

But no matter how much I liked all of the above, it was riddled with plot-holes.

Oh yeah, nobody can claim the 2007 movie didn't have plot holes. But most of them could've easily been handled by explaining/expanding on certain plot points and generally polishing up the script.

Even as-is, none of them are as internal-logic-breaking as April's dad somehow dying in a fire he started and by being shot to death by Eric Sacks (who wasn't even there), April having no evidence of the Turtles' existence in one scene then having a photo of them in the very next one, Splinter knowing who Shredder is despite having never met or even seen him before, and a supervillain plot to get rich cooked up by someone who's already a multi-billionaire that depends specifically on him being caught red-handed. And that's just a small selection of the many massive, logic-shattering plot holes in BayTurtles.

it seems that a lot of 2k3 fans are butthurt at the fact that us true ot fans are not buying into the bull$hit portrayal of the ot turtles in turtles forever. no it was not a "pretty accurate" portrayal. the turtles never cried like little girls in the ot.

Okay, hold on a tic. Are you saying you're "true OT fans" as in true fans of the '87 cartoon, or that OT fans are somehow "truer" than fans of the 2003 series?

Either way... sheesh, dude. This is a TV movie from six years ago. Let it go!

(Or if you can't do that, at least try to acknowledge the very fair, well-reasoned rebuttals to your whine-fests instead of just dismissing everyone as "butthurt 2K3 fans". Otherwise folks might get the impression you don't have a sound argument here and you know it. :P)

[Yabuturtle]

It's called BayTurtles because Platinum Dunes is run by Michael Bay. Things happen or don't happen by his decree. Read some of the other threads, like how Bay was responsible for killing off all the actual Foot ninja and replacing them with terrorists.

He is responsible, but I'd say most of the blame goes to the people that actually wrote it and directed it, not the person who produced it. Unlike the other movies Bay actually directed like the Transformers movies.

[Gunpowder]

Even as-is, none of them are as internal-logic-breaking as April's dad somehow dying in a fire he started and by being shot to death by Eric Sacks (who wasn't even there), April having no evidence of the Turtles' existence in one scene then having a photo of them in the very next one, Splinter knowing who Shredder is despite having never met or even seen him before, and a supervillain plot to get rich cooked up by someone who's already a multi-billionaire that depends specifically on him being caught red-handed. And that's just a small selection of the many massive, logic-shattering plot holes in BayTurtles.

I'm still convinced that the cuts & re-shoots (to make Sacks & Shredder different people) were responsible for a lot of those plot holes...like, a crucial line was cut, or something. For example, if Sacks was still Shredder, then Splinter would have seen him whilst in the lab with April's dad (since Sacks was there)..so that would have explained him recognizing Shredder later on. Even though he upgraded his armor, lol...you know what, nevermind. I'm probably wrong. :lol:

[Wesley]

it seems that a lot of 2k3 fans are butthurt at the fact that us true ot fans are not buying into the bull$hit portrayal of the ot turtles in turtles forever. no it was not a "pretty accurate" portrayal. the turtles never cried like little girls in the ot. even the intro scene is stupid, the ot turtles never all laughed and joked around while they were captured and tied up.

i can tolerate all the other crap they did in turtles forever, but the crying scene, making the ot turtles look like cowards, was really where i drew the line. what if that scene was reversed? what if it was the 2k3 turtles crying like little girls and running to the ot turtles for comfort? i bet that woulda pi$$ed off a lot of 2k3 fans.

I agree that the OT turtles never cried. They did run away from their enemies a lot in their own series, nevertheless. Raphael did make jokes in dangerous situations in episodes like The Return of Dregg and Divide and Conquer, but I liked that because I thought it showed that they weren't afraid no matter what situation they were in.

[plastroncafe]

OT turtles DID cry.
Michaelangelo cries in the first Nutrino episode, when saying goodbye.
And that's just one instance off the top of my head.

[CyberCubed]

The original cartoon had tons of great episodes and funny scenes. It was an adventure comedy series, not every show needs plotlines or story arcs.

[Yabuturtle]

I agree that the OT turtles never cried. They did run away from their enemies a lot in their own series, nevertheless. Raphael did make jokes in dangerous situations in episodes like The Return of Dregg and Divide and Conquer, but I liked that because I thought it showed that they weren't afraid no matter what situation they were in.

They did run away sometimes but they did try and fight the enemies off before realizing they were no match for them. Turtles Forever showed a scene where the OT Turtles looked at the Mirage Turtles and immediately cower, drop their weapons and run away. In the episode "Night of the Rogues", they at least tried to fight them off before realizing that they were not only outnumbered, but outmatched.

Making a few jokes and one liners is ok but scenes where Hun has all of them captured and none of the Turtles look the least bit worried and just laugh at their own jokes constantly. It seems out of character to me.

[Wesley]

OT turtles DID cry.
Michaelangelo cries in the first Nutrino episode, when saying goodbye.
And that's just one instance off the top of my head.

You're right, plastroncafe. I forgot about those moments for some reason. I thought the crying wasn't as bad as in Turtles Forever, though, but it was there in the OT. Mikey also shed a tear in The Power of Three when saying goodbye to Carter.

They did run away sometimes but they did try and fight the enemies off before realizing they were no match for them. Turtles Forever showed a scene where the OT Turtles looked at the Mirage Turtles and immediately cower, drop their weapons and run away. In the episode "Night of the Rogues", they at least tried to fight them off before realizing that they were not only outnumbered, but outmatched.

Making a few jokes and one liners is ok but scenes where Hun has all of them captured and none of the Turtles look the least bit worried and just laugh at their own jokes constantly. It seems out of character to me.

I agree with what you've said. I thought the first scene with Hun and the OT turtles was out of character as well. I was expecting them to try to break free. In the episode A Turtle in Time, Dregg had drained their life energy and they still tried to fight him.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

The original cartoon had tons of great episodes and funny scenes. It was an adventure comedy series, not every show needs plotlines or story arcs.

Nope, not every good show needs plotlines or story arcs.

But every GOOD show does. :tgrin:

Every good story survives only because they have at least one of the two following criteria:

#1. Good characters who grow and develop
#2. Plot lines and story arcs

[Yabuturtle]

Nope, not every good show needs plotlines or story arcs.

But every GOOD show does. :tgrin:

Every good story survives only because they have at least one of the two following criteria:

#1. Good characters who grow and develop
#2. Plot lines and story arcs

Nope that's not true.

There's Robot Chicken. xD Filled with just skits and no real "plot".

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Nope that's not true.

There's Robot Chicken. xD Filled with just skits and no real "plot".

That's something completely different. :trolleye: You might as well say that John Oliver or Conan O'Brien have to have plot and/or character development.

[plastroncafe]

I would posit by that definition, among others, that Robot Chicken isn't a good show.

[Bry]

The beautiful, beautiful irony is that a lot of Fred Wolf fans are taking the show and its characters so seriously when its creators never did.

For the vast majority of its run, aside from the earliest and latest couple seasons (which were incidentally also the show's shortest) it wasn't intended to have much in the way of story arcs, continuity or even internal consistency. Characters would disappear with no explanation and certain plot points and status quos would change with no rhyme or reason. Designs/art styles would look noticeably different from one episode to the next. The layout of the lair would completely morph when the script called for it, and characters' behaviours would vary from episode to episode. Everything was malleable around the episode's plot and jokes, and the show even acknowledged this from time to time.

And I don't even mean any of this as a criticism! I genuinely like the show. I've got the Turtle Van boxed set on a shelf in my studio. But you can't deny that, for the majority of its run, it was very intentionally treated as a joke. That was the point of it. At its best, it had a clever, tongue-in-cheek sense of humour about itself, and it expected that the audience was in on the joke.

Both series were just doing very different things, and each fan's preference will depend on their own personal tastes. There were a lot of truly bad episodes in the '87 cartoon, especially when the seasons became bloated and the writing/animation got cheaper and lazier, but the 2003 series had some stinkers itself. I do think the 2003 series holds up a lot better overall because it was telling an actual story and treated its characters more like actual characters than two-dimensional caricatures, but... again, that comes down to my personal tastes, and those have no bearing on anyone else's preferences.

But honestly, having rewatched a bunch of the show pretty recently: you could take the '87 Turtles from Turtles Forever and drop them into a random mid-series episode and, I promise you, they'd fit right in.

(Aside from the scene where they ran into 2003 Raph's arms crying like babies - I agree that bit was weirdly out-of-place and mean-spirited. The rest, though? Pretty damn accurate.)

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I would posit by that definition, among others, that Robot Chicken isn't a good show.

I do find it funny that he's arguing Robot Chicken isn't a good show.

It has some funny skits, I'll admit that, but there are quite a lot that fall flat. For me at least.

[Yabuturtle]

That's something completely different. :trolleye: You might as well say that John Oliver or Conan O'Brien have to have plot and/or character development.

It's a show and it's animated. Conan O'Brian is a talk show, not a skit show, although they do have skits on it.

So really, Robot Chicken isn't that different. But I can give other examples. Aqua Teen Hunger Force isn't well known for having epic plots. Just scenarios, random stuff and not very linear as there are characters that die and come back to life through unexplained reasons.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

It's a show and it's animated. Conan O'Brian is a talk show, not a skit show, although they do have skits on it.

So really, Robot Chicken isn't that different. But I can give other examples. Aqua Teen Hunger Force isn't well known for having epic plots.

Never heard of Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

Robot Chicken is a skit show and I'm baffled why you're bringing it up in this discussion. Straw man much? Tell me, what recurring characters are there? In the majority of all episodes?

[plastroncafe]

You're not missing much on not having seen Aqua Teen.

But here I'll take this strawman down and give it some new stuffing.

Teen Titans Go.
A non-linear show with a regular cast of characters. You can enjoy it if you've never seen the previous version, or if you're pretty unfamiliar with the characters overall, but it's funnier if you know them.

I'd consider it a good show. Each episode is mostly self contained, which is good because the characters are maimed and/or die a whole lot.
It's dark and campy and ridiculous.

Would I consider it good? Well...I like it a lot.

[Yabuturtle]

Never heard of Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

Robot Chicken is a skit show and I'm baffled why you're bringing it up in this discussion. Straw man much? Tell me, what recurring characters are there? In the majority of all episodes?

You said earlier that good shows have linear stories and plot development and I debated that not all shows have to have such qualities to be listed as good shows. And when I do list shows that are good or somewhat decent, you're baffled? I don't get it... Please I've seen way too many people say "something something much?" That is something that has never made sense to me.

I'm just listing well known shows whether you think it's good or not. I've seen shows with needlessly complicated plots that just end up slowing things down. So, no, not every good show has to have a good linear plot line and/or character development. As long as it's entertaining, that's what makes it a good show. Go watch ATHF to know what I mean. It's better than trying to explain it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

You're not missing much on not having seen Aqua Teen.

But here I'll take this strawman down and give it some new stuffing.

Teen Titans Go.
A non-linear show with a regular cast of characters. You can enjoy it if you've never seen the previous version, or if you're pretty unfamiliar with the characters overall, but it's funnier if you know them.

I'd consider it a good show. Each episode is mostly self contained, which is good because the characters are maimed and/or die a whole lot.
It's dark and campy and ridiculous.

Would I consider it good? Well...I like it a lot.

Honestly, it sounds like the DC Comics version of the OT TMNT.

You said earlier that good shows have linear stories and plot development and I debated that not all shows have to have such qualities to be listed as good shows. And when I do list shows that are good or somewhat decent, you're baffled? I don't get it... Please I've seen way too many people say "something something much?" That is something that has never made sense to me.

I'm just listing well known shows whether you think it's good or not. I've seen shows with needlessly complicated plots that just end up slowing things down. So, no, not every good show has to have a good linear plot line and/or character development. As long as it's entertaining, that's what makes it a good show. Go watch ATHF to know what I mean. It's better than trying to explain it.

I apologize for not being clear. When we're discussing TMNT and what makes a good show, I assume discussing other shows means discussing other shows similar to TMNT. In that it contains regular recurring characters aka a main cast and some form of plot. Whether story arcs or nothing but standalone episodes.

Again, based on that criteria, Robot Chicken doesn't enter the conversation. Might as well bring up Dorkly's channel on Youtube. But if you want to expand it to "any show in any genre" then obviously more criteria immediately enter the game and the scope mushrooms past this thread. Also, I'll lose interest. :trazz:

[Wesley]

The beautiful, beautiful irony is that a lot of Fred Wolf fans are taking the show and its characters so seriously when its creators never did.

For the vast majority of its run, aside from the earliest and latest couple seasons (which were incidentally also the show's shortest) it wasn't intended to have much in the way of story arcs, continuity or even internal consistency. Characters would disappear with no explanation and certain plot points and status quos would change with no rhyme or reason. Designs/art styles would look noticeably different from one episode to the next. The layout of the lair would completely morph when the script called for it, and characters' behaviours would vary from episode to episode. Everything was malleable around the episode's plot and jokes, and the show even acknowledged this from time to time.

And I don't even mean any of this as a criticism! I genuinely like the show. I've got the Turtle Van boxed set on a shelf in my studio. But you can't deny that, for the majority of its run, it was very intentionally treated as a joke. That was the point of it. At its best, it had a clever, tongue-in-cheek sense of humour about itself, and it expected that the audience was in on the joke.

Both series were just doing very different things, and each fan's preference will depend on their own personal tastes. There were a lot of truly bad episodes in the '87 cartoon, especially when the seasons became bloated and the writing/animation got cheaper and lazier, but the 2003 series had some stinkers itself. I do think the 2003 series holds up a lot better overall because it was telling an actual story and treated its characters more like actual characters than two-dimensional caricatures, but... again, that comes down to my personal tastes, and those have no bearing on anyone else's preferences.

But honestly, having rewatched a bunch of the show pretty recently: you could take the '87 Turtles from Turtles Forever and drop them into a random mid-series episode and, I promise you, they'd fit right in.

(Aside from the scene where they ran into 2003 Raph's arms crying like babies - I agree that bit was weirdly out-of-place and mean-spirited. The rest, though? Pretty damn accurate.)

I agree. I rewatched some of the 1987 series recently and it wasn't as good as I remembered it as a kid. I think it was on air for too long and could've been condensed into five seasons. Half of the episodes are still fun to watch, in my opinion, but I find the turtles' catchphrases and pizza jokes irrating as an adult. I prefer the 2003 cartoon.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I agree. I rewatched some of the 1987 series recently and it wasn't as good as I remembered it as a kid. I think it was on air for too long and could've been condensed into five seasons. Half of the episodes are still fun to watch, in my opinion, but I find the turtles' catchphrases and pizza jokes irrating as an adult.

It's rare that things we loved as a kid don't age poorly. At least in my experience.

But hey... thank you Fred Wolf TMNT for starting Turtlemania and bringing most of us into the fold.

[plastroncafe]

Honestly, it sounds like the DC Comics version of the OT TMNT.


....

Thaaaaat is a way better, and far more succinct way of describing it.
:D!

[Wesley]

It's rare that things we loved as a kid don't age poorly. At least in my experience.

But hey... thank you Fred Wolf TMNT for starting Turtlemania and bringing most of us into the fold.

I agree. I still like some of the OT's episodes, though. I like the Shredder/Krang dialogue and Raphael's one-liners. It's still a fun show to watch in small doses. It's mostly a comedy with some action in it. It's one of those guilty pleasure type shows like 2 Broke Girls and Charmed.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

....

Thaaaaat is a way better, and far more succinct way of describing it.
:D!

Is there pizza involved? :tlol:

[Leo656]

He is responsible, but I'd say most of the blame goes to the people that actually wrote it and directed it, not the person who produced it. Unlike the other movies Bay actually directed like the Transformers movies.

You are incorrect, as every single person working on TMNT had to do whatever Bay told them to. Go click around, I don't have the time to bring up year-old articles and interviews that were posted here which "exposed" that it was about 95% Bay's movie. Everything that made it into the final film was HIS say-so. It's a fact. HE is the one responsible for what we see on screen at this point. The writers and director's are just puppets.

(Sigh) FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME...

Producers FINANCE movies. That means THEY make sure the movie has the money it needs to even get made. That means they are above the writer, director, and EVERYONE else. ESPECIALLY when the producer's name is "Michael Bay" and the director's name is "Who the f*** cares I never heard of him". Some no-name "writer" or "Director is going to tell Michael f***ing Bay what's going to be in the movie that HE'S paying for?! No. no, no, NO. The person handing over the money - and especially when they're a "celebrity" themselves like Bay - calls ALL the important shots.

Since the movie came out, MANY people working on the movie and even Bay HIMSELF have come forward and admitted that he made every single decision and they all did what he said. because he's The Boss.

I can't take it. Two years later we're still arguing about the fact that it WAS Bay's f***ing movie and no one else's.

Read and comprehend, people. Don't project, don't argue, just take the facts as they're given. As I have said many, MANY times, I don't think people should even be allowed to SPECULATE on how these things go down until they've studied how movies are made, or at least read a decent book on the subject. It's just... painful, having to go back and rehash stuff that was buried FOREVER ago, just because some people still don't know what a "Producer" does, especially the producer who owns the studio.

Siiiiiiiiiiiigh. :ohwell:

You're not missing much on not having seen Aqua Teen.


Wow, talk about statements that are the Opposite of Truth. :lol: Best thing ever.

[plastroncafe]

Wow, talk about statements that are the Opposite of Truth. :lol: Best thing ever.

Not when you used to live with a guy who was unironcally Master Shake it's not. That show damn near gives me flashbacks.

Plus? The movie was a HUGE let down, aside from the "linoleum knife" intro which was inspired.

[Leo656]

Well, I'm not trying to get all personal, I just happen to love random WTF humor and that show delivers in spades. :lol:

Meanwhile, "you don't own space so stop actin' like ya do." :tgrin:

[Jephael]

I just happen to love random WTF humor and that show delivers in spades.

Gotta love Meatwad!!!

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/2256/470247-meatwad_marine.jpg

[Commenter 42]

Soooooooo....

What's new?

Looks like I missed the party.

[Yabuturtle]

You are incorrect, as every single person working on TMNT had to do whatever Bay told them to. Go click around, I don't have the time to bring up year-old articles and interviews that were posted here which "exposed" that it was about 95% Bay's movie. Everything that made it into the final film was HIS say-so. It's a fact. HE is the one responsible for what we see on screen at this point. The writers and director's are just puppets.

(Sigh) FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME...

Producers FINANCE movies. That means THEY make sure the movie has the money it needs to even get made. That means they are above the writer, director, and EVERYONE else. ESPECIALLY when the producer's name is "Michael Bay" and the director's name is "Who the f*** cares I never heard of him". Some no-name "writer" or "Director is going to tell Michael f***ing Bay what's going to be in the movie that HE'S paying for?! No. no, no, NO. The person handing over the money - and especially when they're a "celebrity" themselves like Bay - calls ALL the important shots.

Since the movie came out, MANY people working on the movie and even Bay HIMSELF have come forward and admitted that he made every single decision and they all did what he said. because he's The Boss.

I can't take it. Two years later we're still arguing about the fact that it WAS Bay's f***ing movie and no one else's.

Read and comprehend, people. Don't project, don't argue, just take the facts as they're given. As I have said many, MANY times, I don't think people should even be allowed to SPECULATE on how these things go down until they've studied how movies are made, or at least read a decent book on the subject. It's just... painful, having to go back and rehash stuff that was buried FOREVER ago, just because some people still don't know what a "Producer" does, especially the producer who owns the studio.

Siiiiiiiiiiiigh. :ohwell:



Wow, talk about statements that are the Opposite of Truth. :lol: Best thing ever.

I know what a producer does...You don't have to explain as if I never heard of it.... I'm not saying he doesn't deserve all of the blame, I know he's a part of it, but that's the thing, he's a PART of it, not just all of it. He did finance it and had the final say in it, it doesn't mean he wrote the atrocious script or handled the poor editing, it just means that he approved it. Doesn't excuse it, but it's quite asinine when people act as if he was totally responsible which he wasn't. He was a big part of it, but a part nonetheless.

I'm saying don't put all the blame on him and act as if the writers and directors never existed. In the meantime, don't let this stuff get under your skin. It's not worth getting angry over. Seriously...

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I know what a producer does...You don't have to explain as if I never heard of it.... I'm not saying he doesn't deserve all of the blame, I know he's a part of it, but that's the thing, he's a PART of it, not just all of it. He did finance it and had the final say in it, it doesn't mean he wrote the atrocious script or handled the poor editing, it just means that he approved it. Doesn't excuse it, but it's quite asinine when people act as if he was totally responsible which he wasn't. He was a big part of it, but a part nonetheless.

I'm saying don't put all the blame on him and act as if the writers and directors never existed. In the meantime, don't let this stuff get under your skin. It's not worth getting angry over. Seriously...

When an employee brings a bad plan or lousy design to a manager, and the manager approves it, the employee might be in trouble but it's the manager whose ass gets nailed to the wall. That's why they get paid more and why they're supposed to manage (or produce) the people under them.

AKA "The buck stops here."

[Commenter 42]

When an employee brings a bad plan or lousy design to a manager, and the manager approves it, the employee might be in trouble but it's the manager whose ass gets nailed to the wall. That's why they get paid more and why they're supposed to manage (or produce) the people under them.

AKA "The buck stops here."

Meh, I know it's Bay we all want to blame, but like i said, He had very little to do with it on the whole.

It was more a case of Liebesman making a big mess, (because they begged him to be the director), Bay watching the film and hating it, and Frankensteining it all to hell.

That's when they focus grouped the thing, and realized they had to drop white Shredder. Then re-shoots.

Granted Bay didn't understand Turtles then, and still doesn't now. He just knows it was a major headache, but it made more money than anyone thought it would. He was heavily involved with TF4 at the time. All of his focus was on TF4. Turtles wasn't expected to perform well, just make a small profit. Inspite of all the ****-ups, it over performed.

When you watch it again, you can see the scotch tape where they tried to salvage what was shot.

Bay also didn't make The turtles bigger. Look at the mocap suits - the eyeline was a foot off the actors head from the beginning. That decision was made by Liebesman and the other producers. Bay was prepping TF4.

And honestly, Bay would have never gone after TMNT in the first place if it wasn't for Brad Fuller. Fuller is the real evil **** here. Fuller is the big problem.

HE is the real devil, believe it or not.

[BubblyShell22]

Interesting thread here. Which version did worse? Well, if you want to go the cartoon route, I'd say Next Mutation and Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers from the 2K3 show as I pretty much pretend those seasons didn't exist and that it ended with the Lost Season. If we're talking movies, definitely the 2014 movie because it was just a f*cked up mess.

And for those who are saying that Turtles Forever was a slap in the face, that's not true at all. Yeah, the FW Turtles were goofier, but it was a parody, so that's what it was about. I only hated when they were crying, and now that I remember that they DID cry in the FW toon (in "Splinter No More" Mikey starts crying as does Splinter at the thought of being human and leaving his sons), it doesn't really bother me that much.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

And for those who are saying that Turtles Forever was a slap in the face, that's not true at all. Yeah, the FW Turtles were goofier, but it was a parody, so that's what it was about. I only hated when they were crying, and now that I remember that they DID cry in the FW toon (in "Splinter No More" Mikey starts crying as does Splinter at the thought of being human and leaving his sons), it doesn't really bother me that much.

Thank you! Someone understands!

[Wesley]

And for those who are saying that Turtles Forever was a slap in the face, that's not true at all. Yeah, the FW Turtles were goofier, but it was a parody, so that's what it was about. I only hated when they were crying, and now that I remember that they DID cry in the FW toon (in "Splinter No More" Mikey starts crying as does Splinter at the thought of being human and leaving his sons), it doesn't really bother me that much.

I agree. I only hated it when the FW Turtles were giving noogies and laughing too much, but other than that, their behaviour was mostly like how they would have acted in the 1987 series. At least in the goofier mid seasons like three and four and it was at that time that the OT was at the height of its popularity. Also, I thought OT Shredder and Krang were protrayed well. The OT characters were still a bit competent at times in Turtles Forever anyway like when OT Shredder and Krang joined forces with both sets of Turtles against Ch'rell towards the end.

[Yabuturtle]

Interesting thread here. Which version did worse? Well, if you want to go the cartoon route, I'd say Next Mutation and Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers from the 2K3 show as I pretty much pretend those seasons didn't exist and that it ended with the Lost Season. If we're talking movies, definitely the 2014 movie because it was just a f*cked up mess.

And for those who are saying that Turtles Forever was a slap in the face, that's not true at all. Yeah, the FW Turtles were goofier, but it was a parody, so that's what it was about. I only hated when they were crying, and now that I remember that they DID cry in the FW toon (in "Splinter No More" Mikey starts crying as does Splinter at the thought of being human and leaving his sons), it doesn't really bother me that much.

I don't really understand. When was Turtles Forever supposed to be a "parody" anyway? I agree the 87 turtles act more like a parody hence why they are very out of character. I mean, nobody wonders why the 03 Turtles aren't out of character, yet the 87 Turtles are? It's not the fact that they cried that was a problem, it was that they did so after being nearly crushed and started crying like babies and hugging 03 Raph which I think was really strange and out of character. I can understand if they cry when someone is leaving, but after escaping destruction and crying and hugging Raph? It sounds really weird.

That and the 87 Turtles constantly giving noogies to 03 Mikey. I don't recall the 87 Turtles ever giving each other noogies but they act like that was something they did a lot in the cartoon, which they didn't. Their personalities weren't as distinguished, they all acted like the same moronic coward. They seem more oblivious, not even caring that they are talking to alternate dimension counter parts of themselves and instead go out to lunch to eat pizza, in the middle of the day, with no disguise and end up stealing the pizza, since the chef ran away seeing the Turtles, and we see the Turtles end up eating lots of pizza. Nobody at all finds this strange? Or even when thinking about a plan to stop Shredder, they still think nothing except for pizza. I know they love pizza, but not to the point where it makes them oblivious to the danger they are going to face. Not to mention they don't fight as much as their counter parts and usually end up getting beat up.

They are overall more immature, treating everything like a joke. 03 Turtles even go out of their way to say the 87 Shredder is a joke. Admitting, yes, he is less dangerous and less competent than the 03 Shredder, but 87 Shredder DID have his competent moments, did act dangerous, caused mass destruction and even defeated the Turtles in direct combat more than once. The 87 characters didn't seem to do much, even Krang and Shredder, who just usually sat in the bleachers occasionally fought, occasionally did something useful and occasionally moved the plot around.

[Wesley]

I don't really understand. When was Turtles Forever supposed to be a "parody" anyway? I agree the 87 turtles act more like a parody hence why they are very out of character. I mean, nobody wonders why the 03 Turtles aren't out of character, yet the 87 Turtles are? It's not the fact that they cried that was a problem, it was that they did so after being nearly crushed and started crying like babies and hugging 03 Raph which I think was really strange and out of character. I can understand if they cry when someone is leaving, but after escaping destruction and crying and hugging Raph? It sounds really weird.

That and the 87 Turtles constantly giving noogies to 03 Mikey. I don't recall the 87 Turtles ever giving each other noogies but they act like that was something they did a lot in the cartoon, which they didn't. Their personalities weren't as distinguished, they all acted like the same moronic coward. They seem more oblivious, not even caring that they are talking to alternate dimension counter parts of themselves and instead go out to lunch to eat pizza, in the middle of the day, with no disguise and end up stealing the pizza, since the chef ran away seeing the Turtles, and we see the Turtles end up eating lots of pizza. Nobody at all finds this strange? Or even when thinking about a plan to stop Shredder, they still think nothing except for pizza. I know they love pizza, but not to the point where it makes them oblivious to the danger they are going to face. Not to mention they don't fight as much as their counter parts and usually end up getting beat up.

They are overall more immature, treating everything like a joke. 03 Turtles even go out of their way to say the 87 Shredder is a joke. Admitting, yes, he is less dangerous and less competent than the 03 Shredder, but 87 Shredder DID have his competent moments, did act dangerous, caused mass destruction and even defeated the Turtles in direct combat more than once. The 87 characters didn't seem to do much, even Krang and Shredder, who just usually sat in the bleachers occasionally fought, occasionally did something useful and occasionally moved the plot around.

I agree with most of what you've said. However, the 87 Turtles did get taken out easily a lot in their own series (the episode "Shreeka's Revenge", for example). The 03 Turtles saying that OT Shredder was a joke was wrong alright. I thought the 87 characters did have a few competent moments, though, like when they fought Ch'rell towards the end. Also, I liked it OT Shredder's line when he asked Ch'rell why he didn't destroy the turtles when he had a chance. I agree that the O3 Turtles were out of character, as they were protrayed as too serious, considering that that they were funny at times in their own series, particularly in the last two seasons.

[jenna]

Interesting thread here. Which version did worse? Well, if you want to go the cartoon route, I'd say Next Mutation and Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers from the 2K3 show as I pretty much pretend those seasons didn't exist and that it ended with the Lost Season. If we're talking movies, definitely the 2014 movie because it was just a f*cked up mess.

And for those who are saying that Turtles Forever was a slap in the face, that's not true at all. Yeah, the FW Turtles were goofier, but it was a parody, so that's what it was about. I only hated when they were crying, and now that I remember that they DID cry in the FW toon (in "Splinter No More" Mikey starts crying as does Splinter at the thought of being human and leaving his sons), it doesn't really bother me that much.

I agree here. My personal take on Turtles Forever is that it is a parody and was made for the fans. It's not just poking fun at Fred Wolf turtles, but at the whole franchise, including itself. Casual fans wouldn't get it at all, so it was never going to be a smash commercially. I love Turtles Forever. It's funny, clever and feels like a massive in-joke.

[Wesley]

I agree here. My personal take on Turtles Forever is that it is a parody and was made for the fans. It's not just poking fun at Fred Wolf turtles, but at the whole franchise, including itself. Casual fans wouldn't get it at all, so it was never going to be a smash commercially. I love Turtles Forever. It's funny, clever and feels like a massive in-joke.

I mostly agree. I don't love Turtles Foever, but I think it's a fun movie to watch and gets better on subsequent rewatches, though there a few moments in the movie that I don't like.

[Werecat]

The beautiful, beautiful irony is that a lot of Fred Wolf fans are taking the show and its characters so seriously when its creators never did.

For the vast majority of its run, aside from the earliest and latest couple seasons (which were incidentally also the show's shortest) it wasn't intended to have much in the way of story arcs, continuity or even internal consistency. Characters would disappear with no explanation and certain plot points and status quos would change with no rhyme or reason. Designs/art styles would look noticeably different from one episode to the next. The layout of the lair would completely morph when the script called for it, and characters' behaviours would vary from episode to episode. Everything was malleable around the episode's plot and jokes, and the show even acknowledged this from time to time.

I think you described every TMNT variation ever. Inconsistencies, anti-climatic plots, incoherent plots, plot holes are in every TMNT variation. Nonetheless, TMNT is still enjoyable but it is silly to remain content with
mediocrity. TMNT deserves writers/directors that will create compelling characters and storylines.

Nick TMNT is awesome but it is far from perfect. 2k3 and next mutation is the worst incarnations ever because of the Mary Sue Leonardo and Venus overwhelming the show. Now Nick TMNT is going downhill because of the upcoming Mary Sue Leo. It is such a coincidence that the writers from the 2k3 series are credited for the work for the Leo only episodes in the Nick version. I hope the writers for Nick learn from their mistakes and make an even awesomer season 4.

[Ninturtle]

I think you described every TMNT variation ever. Inconsistencies, anti-climatic plots, incoherent plots, plot holes are in every TMNT variation. Nonetheless, TMNT is still enjoyable but it is silly to remain content with
mediocrity. TMNT deserves writers/directors that will create compelling characters and storylines.

Nick TMNT is awesome but it is far from perfect. 2k3 and next mutation is the worst incarnations ever because of the Mary Sue Leonardo and Venus overwhelming the show. Now Nick TMNT is going downhill because of the upcoming Mary Sue Leo. It is such a coincidence that the writers from the 2k3 series are credited for the work for the Leo only episodes in the Nick version. I hope the writers for Nick learn from their mistakes and make an even awesomer season 4.

How was 2k3s Leo a mary sue?

[BubblyShell22]

I think you described every TMNT variation ever. Inconsistencies, anti-climatic plots, incoherent plots, plot holes are in every TMNT variation. Nonetheless, TMNT is still enjoyable but it is silly to remain content with
mediocrity. TMNT deserves writers/directors that will create compelling characters and storylines.

Nick TMNT is awesome but it is far from perfect. 2k3 and next mutation is the worst incarnations ever because of the Mary Sue Leonardo and Venus overwhelming the show. Now Nick TMNT is going downhill because of the upcoming Mary Sue Leo. It is such a coincidence that the writers from the 2k3 series are credited for the work for the Leo only episodes in the Nick version. I hope the writers for Nick learn from their mistakes and make an even awesomer season 4.

Leo is NOT a Mary Sue in the Nick series. He learned ONE healing mantra and all of a sudden he's a Mary Sue? No, he's not. If anyone's a Mary Sue, it's April with her powers.

And if you're talking about Leo's angsty mood from season 4 that was resolved and never brought up again.

[1987]

Interesting thread here. Which version did worse? Well, if you want to go the cartoon route, I'd say Next Mutation and Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers from the 2K3 show as I pretty much pretend those seasons didn't exist and that it ended with the Lost Season. If we're talking movies, definitely the 2014 movie because it was just a f*cked up mess.

And for those who are saying that Turtles Forever was a slap in the face, that's not true at all. Yeah, the FW Turtles were goofier, but it was a parody, so that's what it was about. I only hated when they were crying, and now that I remember that they DID cry in the FW toon (in "Splinter No More" Mikey starts crying as does Splinter at the thought of being human and leaving his sons), it doesn't really bother me that much.

you were complaining about turtles forever discussions, and now youre doing it yourself? hippocrit?

the crying thing in turtles forever was done to make the ot turtles look stupid and cowardly, thats different then a few tears of emotion shed at the thought of someone leaving. turtles forever was far more than just a lighthearted poking fun at the ot, it was indeed a direct slap in the face of the ot in order to make the 2k3 turtles look better and more heroic.

the problem is people who say turtles forever is accurate are so stubborn and swear that it is 100% accurate. when did michelangelo say "we're cute we cant help it, we were born that way"? and when 2k3 raph says the ot turtles have no brains, ot raph responds "we resemble that remark". so clearly hes making an a$$ of himself. the real ot raph wouldnt do that. it is so obvious they were trying to make the ot look stupid and the casual fans who havent seen much of the ot just bought right into it and ASSume that turtles forever was right. in reality, the ot turtles were WAAAAAYYYYYY out of character in turtles forever. it truly was a slap in the face.

in the short-lived poll i made my theory already had more votes, its a dam shame it got disintegrated cause it could have settled this obviously one-sided argument.

[Leo656]

The competition for this year's "Dana Barrett Memorial 'Will You Please LEAVE?' Award" is getting mighty fierce lately...

[BubblyShell22]

you were complaining about turtles forever discussions, and now youre doing it yourself? hippocrit?

the crying thing in turtles forever was done to make the ot turtles look stupid and cowardly, thats different then a few tears of emotion shed at the thought of someone leaving. turtles forever was far more than just a lighthearted poking fun at the ot, it was indeed a direct slap in the face of the ot in order to make the 2k3 turtles look better and more heroic.

the problem is people who say turtles forever is accurate are so stubborn and swear that it is 100% accurate. when did michelangelo say "we're cute we cant help it, we were born that way"? and when 2k3 raph says the ot turtles have no brains, ot raph responds "we resemble that remark". so clearly hes making an a$$ of himself. the real ot raph wouldnt do that. it is so obvious they were trying to make the ot look stupid and the casual fans who havent seen much of the ot just bought right into it and ASSume that turtles forever was right. in reality, the ot turtles were WAAAAAYYYYYY out of character in turtles forever. it truly was a slap in the face.

in the short-lived poll i made my theory already had more votes, its a dam shame it got disintegrated cause it could have settled this obviously one-sided argument.

Oh, go f*ck yourself. I was responding to what everyone was saying about TF being a slap in the face and agreeing with the others that it's a parody. The problem I and others had about the discussions before were that you were constantly creating the same thread.

[1987]

Oh, go f*ck yourself. I was responding to what everyone was saying about TF being a slap in the face and agreeing with the others that it's a parody. The problem I and others had about the discussions before were that you were constantly creating the same thread.

wow, you really take this personal huh? lmfao

i only made 2 threads about it, the 2nd one was just a poll. i wish i had thought of the poll idea in the first thread and could have avoided all this nonsense from you clowns.

[BubblyShell22]

You called me a hypocrite, so yeah, I'm going to take that personally. And if you don't like it here, then get out. You certainly wouldn't be missed.

[Leo656]

I hate summer. The kids get off of school, they all clog up this place instead of going outside, and the IQ of the entire forum drops 100 points.

Bubbly: No, he called you a "hippocrit". :lol: Which probably means the same thing to people who don't know how to capitalize or put commas and periods where they belong.

[BubblyShell22]

Well, that's even worse if he can't even spell it. And then people wonder why I hate kids so much.

[Autbot_Benz]

that 1987 guys has got to be the biggest butthurt fred wolf fanatic ever. Its pathetic

[Leo656]

Well, that's even worse if he can't even spell it. And then people wonder why I hate kids so much.

Counting down the seconds until the inevitable "I'm on my phone" excuse, as if it makes their posts any easier to read.

[BubblyShell22]

Yep, I'm waiting for that, too, though I do understand that autocorrect CAN be a pain. But in this guy's case, I don't see it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Well, that's even worse if he can't even spell it. And then people wonder why I hate kids so much.

Hate their parents, too. They're usually the root cause of the problem.

I hate summer. The kids get off of school, they all clog up this place instead of going outside, and the IQ of the entire forum drops 100 points.

I never put two and two together... but yeah, that would definitely explain the rash of antisocial squawkers going around. Kids with no real-world socialization and off their meds on a computer... you'd think they'd spend their time ogling online with the filter off, but nope. These kids have their priorities. :trolleye:

[Leo656]

Yeah man. When I had my first summer break after getting the internet I just went and saw soooooooo muuuuuch poooorn. :lol: At least that was productive. :lol:

[Werecat]

I hate summer. The kids get off of school, they all clog up this place instead of going outside, and the IQ of the entire forum drops 100 points.

Bubbly: No, he called you a "hippocrit". :lol: Which probably means the same thing to people who don't know how to capitalize or put commas and periods where they belong.
So are you implying that the our combined IQ is less or equal to 0? 100 points is a bit generous of you.

Also IQ is not an accurate estimate of someone's intelligence. Instead IQ is more accurate to reflecting a person's resources. For example I increase my resources by having the money to afford a tutor or the best educational books/programs. The cost efficient method to increase resources is to just go to the library but that is dependent on the generiousity of the city and other corporations to donate. Some Cities cut the budget of libraries thus reducing the possible increase in resources for a simple IQ test. Most IQ tests are also severely inaccurate but whatever man I get what you mean.

I am pretty sure our combined IQ would be in the negatives...Some of you are intelligent though...some. SOME!

Edit: Also I completely forgot about the low quality of Fastforward and Back to the sewers. SO no doubt FF BtTS and Next mutation did the worse when it comes to storytimes.

Edit 2: Also also also I don't think it be wise to judge someone based on their grammar. They could be foreign or going with the flow or just silly. From my experience here there is no way to win when it comes to grammar; if you use big words people automatically assume you insulted them and if you dont use proper grammar people insult you for your poor grammar.

[1987]

just because you guys disagree with my stance on turtles forever and cant accept the fact that not everyone glorifies your beloved TF as a 100% accurate portrayal of the ot turtles, you all have to team up on me and start insulting and name calling, derailing this thread completely, saying things like "go f urself, blame the parents, you cant spell or use auto correct, at least i download porn, no social skills, i hate children" etc you guys can insult me all you want i really dont care im not offended it means nothing to me. i guess it must be your way of avoiding an actual, relevant response to my initial post of why TF is wrong.

maybe deep down inside you know i am right, and you figure "hey lets all gang up and troll this guy so we dont have to try and come up with a clever response that might help prove him wrong"

nobody has proven me wrong about TF thus far, just ducking and dodging the conflict.

your sophmoric insults are embarassing

[Leo656]

Guy gets mad at something trivial.

People point out they're being silly.

Guy accuses everyone of getting mat at them for something trivial.

Your complaint about TF is a blatant overreaction to something clever and silly and most people don't share your view. That's not ganging up. You keep trying to force the issue, and people are getting annoyed and yes, making fun, because you didn't just shrug and drop it when you should have. The same thing happens every few months, and every time, the person who brings it up gets blasted because most everyone stopped caring AGES ago. Everyone who needed to rant about it eventually simply agreed to disagree and we'd thank you to stop bringing it up, thanks.

More people like TF than dislike it. Oh well. The longer you carry on, the worse it's going to be. I'd drop the issue, t'were I you.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Personally, I don't even like TF. Never seen it; don't like the idea of a TMNT multiverse. I prefer separate sandboxes for different versions, and don't want any type of multi-Turtle crossover. Messes with my personal mind-canons.

However, when people make asses of themselves and insult veteran members, yeah, some of us make some popcorn and join the fun.

[Autbot_Benz]

just because you guys disagree with my stance on turtles forever and cant accept the fact that not everyone glorifies your beloved TF as a 100% accurate portrayal of the ot turtles, you all have to team up on me and start insulting and name calling, derailing this thread completely, saying things like "go f urself, blame the parents, you cant spell or use auto correct, at least i download porn, no social skills, i hate children" etc you guys can insult me all you want i really dont care im not offended it means nothing to me. i guess it must be your way of avoiding an actual, relevant response to my initial post of why TF is wrong.

maybe deep down inside you know i am right, and you figure "hey lets all gang up and troll this guy so we dont have to try and come up with a clever response that might help prove him wrong"

nobody has proven me wrong about TF thus far, just ducking and dodging the conflict.

your sophmoric insults are embarassing

http://i59.tinypic.com/29m880j.jpg

[Bry]

Hoo boy... 1987, c'mon, guy. Nobody was saying the portrayal of the '87 Turtles was 100% accurate, just that they were mostly accurate. Plenty of people acknowledged that they were a slight exaggeration for comedy's sake, but were still mostly accurate to the majority of the show's run - mainly the sillier, uneven middle seasons.

Also: nobody said that the 2003 series or Turtles Forever were 100% perfect, either. You're seeing things in stark black and white terms, and it was never ever that way at all.

maybe deep down inside you know i am right, and you figure "hey lets all gang up and troll this guy so we dont have to try and come up with a clever response that might help prove him wrong"

nobody has proven me wrong about TF thus far, just ducking and dodging the conflict.

Your arguments have been rebutted very thoroughly, actually - you've just ignored those points.

And you're projecting a lot of motivation onto people that just isn't there. It's all in your head, man. You've got to learn to accept that your opinions/tastes are not universal truths.

[Leo656]

Bry's pretty cool, he gets stuff.

Also...

Personally, I don't even like TF. Never seen it; don't like the idea of a TMNT multiverse. I prefer separate sandboxes for different versions, and don't want any type of multi-Turtle crossover. Messes with my personal mind-canons.


I don't get that thinking at all. All that happens when you call something a "Multiverse" is that you can occasionally cross things over. You get to tell more stories, with a built-in excuse for "Why", "How", and all those other pesky questions that get in the way.

I mean, it's all fake anyway. Even in every "official" canon, there's things every fan chooses to disregard. Saying, "Okay, so it's all canon, somewhere, because it's all fake anyway, so let's just have Mirage TMNT cross over with, I'unno, IDW TMNT, because Why Not, it's all in fun" doesn't sound like it breaks anything. Honestly it makes things "better".

It's also the only rational explanation for how there's a million drastically different versions of TMNT that have nothing to do with each other. They're all equally "valid", thus there HAS to be a Multiverse in order for anything to make sense. You can't just pretend there aren't multiple parallel TMNT worlds and realities; there has to be, they're all too contradictory of each other, and you can't just say One "doesn't count" but this one or that one does.

But TF is pretty good and you should check it out.

[1987]

Hoo boy... 1987, c'mon, guy. Nobody was saying the portrayal of the '87 Turtles was 100% accurate, just that they were mostly accurate. Plenty of people acknowledged that they were a slight exaggeration for comedy's sake, but were still mostly accurate to the majority of the show's run - mainly the sillier, uneven middle seasons.

Also: nobody said that the 2003 series or Turtles Forever were 100% perfect, either. You're seeing things in stark black and white terms, and it was never ever that way at all.



Your arguments have been rebutted very thoroughly, actually - you've just ignored those points.

And you're projecting a lot of motivation onto people that just isn't there. It's all in your head, man. You've got to learn to accept that your opinions/tastes are not universal truths.

they were drawn very accurately yes, i will give them that. but i feel they were extremely exaggerated and over the top cariacature. not just the turtles, but it was pretty crude how they had 2k3 shredder just come in and smack OT shredder across the room like nothing, thats pretty insulting to the OT.

turtles forever should not have been made, the OT turtles do not fit well in 2k3's environment. they were just ridiculed.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Bry's pretty cool, he gets stuff.

Also...



I don't get that thinking at all. All that happens when you call something a "Multiverse" is that you can occasionally cross things over. You get to tell more stories, with a built-in excuse for "Why", "How", and all those other pesky questions that get in the way.

I mean, it's all fake anyway. Even in every "official" canon, there's things every fan chooses to disregard. Saying, "Okay, so it's all canon, somewhere, because it's all fake anyway, so let's just have Mirage TMNT cross over with, I'unno, IDW TMNT, because Why Not, it's all in fun" doesn't sound like it breaks anything. Honestly it makes things "better".

It's also the only rational explanation for how there's a million drastically different versions of TMNT that have nothing to do with each other. They're all equally "valid", thus there HAS to be a Multiverse in order for anything to make sense. You can't just pretend there aren't multiple parallel TMNT worlds and realities; there has to be, they're all too contradictory of each other, and you can't just say One "doesn't count" but this one or that one does.

But TF is pretty good and you should check it out.

Just the way my mind works; I cherry-pick what I like.

Basically it boils down to the fact that I no longer like the Fred Wolf cartoon or its versions of characters, and prefer to stay as far away from it as possible.

[Werecat]

they were drawn very accurately yes, i will give them that. but i feel they were extremely exaggerated and over the top cariacature. not just the turtles, but it was pretty crude how they had 2k3 shredder just come in and smack OT shredder across the room like nothing, thats pretty insulting to the OT.
Ya know the OT turtles & villians are intended to be caricatures. OT shredder was never portrayed as a beast in martial arts. OT Shredder was beaten by trashcans and simple clutter. So the comparison between OT shredder and 2k3 shredder is quite accurate.

The only characters that are poorly represented are the turtles because in the original comics in their first fight with Shredder they actually managed to kill him. The original turtles are powerful beasts, I call them beasts 'cause they is nothin but animals!

[pennydreadful]

In all seriousness for but the briefest of moments - what the blithering f*ck is going on in the forums lately? Is there like, an annual "lose your sh*t-athon" that I wasn't made aware of when I was given my membership paperwork? I've seen some chicanery on the interwebs, but never before have I witnessed this level of dipsh*ttery.

If you're taking the FW cartoon that seriously - enough so that you start a forum war (over several threads, no less) about a perceived slight to a goofy 80's cartoon... seriously, man - give me your address and I will post you some of my valium. Think of it as a public service.

Or, alternatively, just go make a private group for people who hate TF and spangle off in there. At this stage, people are just making fun of you because this whole thing has become repetitious and boring. If Machias were here, she'd spank us all and send us to bed without dinner. Y'know, it occurs to me that the mods probably spend less time here because they're tired of dealing with this type of banality amongst "grown adults".

Now Jack Nicholson will appear, spreading words of wisdom:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g246/sey115/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Sage%20Youngs%20MacBook/Funny%20and%20Random/sellcrazy_zpsd6032305.gif

https://33.media.tumblr.com/d4cb535348f3634c381336c5977e5188/tumblr_ng9l7eYwgn1rfd7lko1_400.gif

[Leo656]

You got paperwork? All I got was a mango, a set of keys that don't fit a single lock, and a pinkie swear that I wouldn't burn the place down. Weird.

[Werecat]

In all seriousness for but the briefest of moments - what the blithering f*ck is going on in the forums lately? Is there like, an annual "lose your sh*t-athon" that I wasn't made aware of when I was given my membership paperwork? I've seen some chicanery on the interwebs, but never before have I witnessed this level of dipsh*ttery.

If you're taking the FW cartoon that seriously - enough so that you start a forum war (over several threads, no less) about a perceived slight to a goofy 80's cartoon... seriously, man - give me your address and I will post you some of my valium. Think of it as a public service.

Or, alternatively, just go make a private group for people who hate TF and spangle off in there. At this stage, people are just making fun of you because this whole thing has become repetitious and boring. If Machias were here, she'd spank us all and send us to bed without dinner. Y'know, it occurs to me that the mods probably spend less time here because they're tired of dealing with this type of banality amongst "grown adults".

Now Jack Nicholson will appear, spreading words of wisdom:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g246/sey115/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Sage%20Youngs%20MacBook/Funny%20and%20Random/sellcrazy_zpsd6032305.gif

https://33.media.tumblr.com/d4cb535348f3634c381336c5977e5188/tumblr_ng9l7eYwgn1rfd7lko1_400.gif
Oh Penny, sometimes I think you are incapable of peacemaking skills instead you are skillful in aggravation. Sometimes I try to view things through your mind "How do I solve bickering...Oh I know by insulting and lightly threaten their safety." Yes that is indeed sensible and what most conversations need.

[Bry]

Bry's pretty cool, he gets stuff.

http://media.giphy.com/media/dILZwwhulFUn6/giphy.gif

(Are Jack Nicholson gifs the thing we're doing now? 'Cause I like it.)


I don't get that thinking at all. All that happens when you call something a "Multiverse" is that you can occasionally cross things over. You get to tell more stories, with a built-in excuse for "Why", "How", and all those other pesky questions that get in the way.

I mean, it's all fake anyway. Even in every "official" canon, there's things every fan chooses to disregard. Saying, "Okay, so it's all canon, somewhere, because it's all fake anyway, so let's just have Mirage TMNT cross over with, I'unno, IDW TMNT, because Why Not, it's all in fun" doesn't sound like it breaks anything. Honestly it makes things "better".

Yeah, pretty much agreed. I mean, I do think that if you go that well too often it can get kinda overly convoluted and ridiculous, and make the concept of a crossover less special than it should be... but a multiverse is a clever, straightforward way to explain and make sense of all the different iterations and have them all be equally "valid" in their own right, if you choose to look at them that way.

The best, cleverest thing Turtles Forever did was frame the ultimate battle around an attempt to wipe out the multiverse by literally destroying Mirage's TMNT #1. The movie isn't "perfect", nothing is, but that touch was utterly brilliant.

they were drawn very accurately yes, i will give them that. but i feel they were extremely exaggerated and over the top cariacature. not just the turtles, but it was pretty crude how they had 2k3 shredder just come in and smack OT shredder across the room like nothing, thats pretty insulting to the OT.

That was just logical - the 2003 Shredder is in a robot exoskeleton and is much stronger than the '87 version. And comes from a much more violent reality, with much higher stakes. And he'd been alive and training for thousands of years. There's no reason for them to be evenly matched.

turtles forever should not have been made

INCORRECT.

Oh Penny, sometimes I think you are incapable of peacemaking skills instead you are skillful in aggravation.

I think it's well past the point of peacemaking - many have tried, and have tried to debate the issue civilly and logically, but every attempt has been ignored or dismissed. There's a point where, for your own sanity, you have to stop trying to put out a fire that others insist on immediately re-lighting and just enjoy watching it burn. :trazz:

[pennydreadful]

You got paperwork? All I got was a mango, a set of keys that don't fit a single lock, and a pinkie swear that I wouldn't burn the place down. Weird.

Seriously? That sucks, dude - I got a keychain, a water-bottle, a handbook detailing who the important players here are and a poppin' pair of booty shorts!

Oh Penny, sometimes I think you are incapable of peacemaking skills instead you are skillful in aggravation. Sometimes I try to view things through your mind "How do I solve bickering...Oh I know by insulting and lightly threaten their safety." Yes that is indeed sensible and what most conversations need.

Oh Werecat. You could never see things through my mind - you're not that special. Seriously man, d'you know how much prescription medication it takes just to get me through the day? Without 40mg of Prozac, I can't even put my pants on in the morning, and I try to wear my underwear as a hat. Unless you're in a country that has public healthcare system you'd be bankrupt within a year! god bless the good old land of Oz, which allows me such opulence.

http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/tyrion-shrine.gif?w=650

:lol: If you think that I'm about to hop a plan from Australia all the way over to where our TF-obsessing little friend is, you severely underestimate my laziness (not to mention my apathy). I cannot emphasize enough - lazy. Ask me about my winter leg-shaving and bikini-area maintenance schedule! I went jeans-shopping on the weekend and it looked like I had a brillo pad stuffed down my low-riders. I don't think that poor woman in the fitting room will ever be the same again.

Seriously though, it's not even possible to overdose on valium. Trust me, if it were, I would've tried it (haha).

http://i.imgur.com/wJwh10J.jpg?1

So, anyone up for some Jefferson Airplane?

[Commenter 42]

F*ck me gently in the face hole.

This has gone on for long enough.

they were drawn very accurately yes, i will give them that. but i feel they were extremely exaggerated and over the top cariacature. not just the turtles, but it was pretty crude how they had 2k3 shredder just come in and smack OT shredder across the room like nothing, thats pretty insulting to the OT.

turtles forever should not have been made, the OT turtles do not fit well in 2k3's environment. they were just ridiculed.

Listen up kid, you are correct. Yes, 100%! You nailed it bub.

They shat all over FW, because that is what Laird thought of FW

Some people here agree with Laird, and as far as they are concerned, the difference between the 87 series, and the exaggerated version in TF, is negligable.

You keep saying They, as though some faceless monster purporated a crime against your beloved Turtles.

Damn man, FW struck first. These are Eastman and Laird's turtles. Sure, they have enjoyed the fruits of licensing the IP, making tens of millions of dollars, but Laird has always carried a grudge against the FW production, and with TF, he finally had the opportunity to grind his axe. So what? Dude conceived them, dude gets to do what he wants to them.
Considering he'd been shepherding the brand for 25 years at that point, I think he earned his right to have his say.

In a nutshell, Laird wanted to say "Hey 1987, you're ninjaturtleing incorrectly." (Thanks Leo)

I'm surprised he didn't end the story with only Mirage surviving.
Clearly he's a benevolent creator.

[BubblyShell22]

This thread is awesome! And we have every right to gang up on you when you're suddenly calling us names just because we don't agree with what you say. I loved TF, and I do agree that FW Turtles were exaggerated. Then again, as C42 has stated, maybe it was intentional because Laird just never liked the FW Turtles, and if that's the case, then so be it. Not everyone has to agree with what you want us to, and when we don't, you get all butthurt and mad. Get a life, dude.

[Wesley]

they were drawn very accurately yes, i will give them that. but i feel they were extremely exaggerated and over the top cariacature. not just the turtles, but it was pretty crude how they had 2k3 shredder just come in and smack OT shredder across the room like nothing, thats pretty insulting to the OT.

turtles forever should not have been made, the OT turtles do not fit well in 2k3's environment. they were just ridiculed.

The 1987 characters weren't extremely exaggerated. Their behaviour was similar to the way they acted in the mid seasons like three and four. 03 Shredder was violent and insane so I'm not surprised that he was able to send OT Shredder flying across the room. OT Shredder had never experienced anything like that in his own series, so his reaction was accurate, in my opinion.

I don't think the OT turtles were ridiculed. They were just parodied along with their other incarnations. I'm glad that Turtles Forever was made, because it was nice to see the OT characters again and I liked seeing the Mirage turtles animated. There were also a lot of Easter Eggs in the movie.

[plastroncafe]

turtles forever should not have been made,

Incorrect.
That movie was hands down the Second greatest gift to the turtle fandom the creators have ever given. The first is how butthurt you're being about it. Because...that's just hours of entertainment right there.

the OT turtles do not fit well in 2k3's environment. they were just ridiculed.


Yes. Good. You got the thrust of the joke. Well done.
And did you notice how the 2k3 toon was ridiculed by the Mirage Turtles in turn?
Humor!

[Yabuturtle]

Incorrect.
That movie was hands down the Second greatest gift to the turtle fandom the creators have ever given. The first is how butthurt you're being about it. Because...that's just hours of entertainment right there.



Yes. Good. You got the thrust of the joke. Well done.
And did you notice how the 2k3 toon was ridiculed by the Mirage Turtles in turn?
Humor!

Everyone made fun everyone but it's kind of obvious the OT got more flak. I do find it strange that no one commented how annoying it was for the 03 Turtles to say "What the shell?" all the time. Did they say that in the 03 cartoon all the time, or was it just exaggerated for this movie, because they did say it a lot in TF. That was even more annoying than what the OT Turtles did.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Everyone made fun everyone but it's kind of obvious the OT got more flak. I do find it strange that no one commented how annoying it was for the 03 Turtles to say "What the shell?" all the time. Did they say that in the 03 cartoon all the time, or was it just exaggerated for this movie, because they did say it a lot in TF. That was even more annoying than what the OT Turtles did.

I'll agree with you right there: "what the shell" got really old, really fast.

Oooh, dark and edgy! Please. Just give me more of Doctor Stockman's decaying body and less of "aw shell" dialogue.

[Bry]

Yes. Good. You got the thrust of the joke. Well done.
And did you notice how the 2k3 toon was ridiculed by the Mirage Turtles in turn?
Humor!

And the '87 Turtles even got to laugh and eye-roll at 2003 Raph's hypocrisy after he was belittled and roughed up by the Mirage Turtles.

The entire point was that it's all relative.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

And the '87 Turtles even got to laugh and eye-roll at 2003 Raph's hypocrisy after he was belittled and roughed up by the Mirage Turtles.

The entire point was that it's all relative.

Fred Wolf TMNT isn't relative; the guys aren't brothers, just roommates. :twink::trazz:

[Yabuturtle]

I'll agree with you right there: "what the shell" got really old, really fast.

Oooh, dark and edgy! Please. Just give me more of Doctor Stockman's decaying body and less of "aw shell" dialogue.

I don't recall them saying it all the time in the cartoon but I could be wrong. At least when the ot turtles did something annoying it was more varied, rather than the same thing over and over.

Instead of saying "what the hell?" they say "what the shell?" because it's for kids and they can't say hell on a kids cartoon.

GET IT?!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I don't recall them saying it all the time in the cartoon but I could be wrong. At least when the ot turtles did something annoying it was more varied, rather than the same thing over and over.

Instead of saying "what the hell?" they say "what the shell?" because it's for kids and they can't say hell on a kids cartoon.

GET IT?!

It was pretty frequent; twice an episode on average, I'd say. Usually more.

[Commenter 42]

It was pretty frequent; twice an episode on average, I'd say. Usually more.

You really should watch TF. I think you'd get a real kick out of it. At first you';ll be like, "meh"...but by the end you'll be like "Oh yeah!"

Trust in 42. It is the answer to all of life's questions.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

You really should watch TF. I think you'd get a real kick out of it. At first you';ll be like, "meh"...but by the end you'll be like "Oh yeah!"

Trust in 42. It is the answer to all of life's questions.

Dude. I'll trust in you if you take me to dinner at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe. :tcool:

[1987]

F*ck me gently in the face hole.

This has gone on for long enough.



Listen up kid, you are correct. Yes, 100%! You nailed it bub.

They shat all over FW, because that is what Laird thought of FW

Some people here agree with Laird, and as far as they are concerned, the difference between the 87 series, and the exaggerated version in TF, is negligable.

You keep saying They, as though some faceless monster purporated a crime against your beloved Turtles.

Damn man, FW struck first. These are Eastman and Laird's turtles. Sure, they have enjoyed the fruits of licensing the IP, making tens of millions of dollars, but Laird has always carried a grudge against the FW production, and with TF, he finally had the opportunity to grind his axe. So what? Dude conceived them, dude gets to do what he wants to them.
Considering he'd been shepherding the brand for 25 years at that point, I think he earned his right to have his say.

In a nutshell, Laird wanted to say "Hey 1987, you're ninjaturtleing incorrectly." (Thanks Leo)

I'm surprised he didn't end the story with only Mirage surviving.
Clearly he's a benevolent creator.

yes you are CORRECT, peter laird absolutely hated the ot with a passion. i always knew he was the true mastermind behind turtles forever. yes indeed he shat all over the 1987 ot during the entirety of turtles forever. and thats fine, it is what it is. it just pi$$es me off when casual fans who hate or havent seen much of the ot, jump on the bandwagon saying "yea, turtles forever was 100% correct about the 1987 ot" and glorify the ot portrayal in tf, and yes, they are too thick headed too see the clear difference between the TF portrayal and the actual OT portrayal.

if you hate the 1987 ot, you'll love turtles forever.

[Jephael]

http://vinylzart.com/shop/images/P/pi_1481.jpeg

That says it all for me at this point.

[plastroncafe]

Or you know...maybe the TF portrayal of the FW cartoon is what the collective consciousness remembers of the FW cartoon.

But what do I know...I'm apparently just a "casual fan."
Which is close enough to "Fake Geek Girl" that I'm totally using it for my BINGO card.

[Yabuturtle]

yes you are CORRECT, peter laird absolutely hated the ot with a passion. i always knew he was the true mastermind behind turtles forever. yes indeed he shat all over the 1987 ot during the entirety of turtles forever. and thats fine, it is what it is. it just pi$$es me off when casual fans who hate or havent seen much of the ot, jump on the bandwagon saying "yea, turtles forever was 100% correct about the 1987 ot" and glorify the ot portrayal in tf, and yes, they are too thick headed too see the clear difference between the TF portrayal and the actual OT portrayal.

if you hate the 1987 ot, you'll love turtles forever.

I know he hated the OT, but to me sounds petty for him to exaggerate them and I believe Laird is just jealous that a different version of the Turtles became more popular this his version. Kevin luckily couldn't care less as long as it makes people happy.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

yes you are CORRECT, peter laird absolutely hated the ot with a passion. i always knew he was the true mastermind behind turtles forever. yes indeed he shat all over the 1987 ot during the entirety of turtles forever. and thats fine, it is what it is. it just pi$$es me off when casual fans who hate or havent seen much of the ot, jump on the bandwagon saying "yea, turtles forever was 100% correct about the 1987 ot" and glorify the ot portrayal in tf, and yes, they are too thick headed too see the clear difference between the TF portrayal and the actual OT portrayal.

if you hate the 1987 ot, you'll love turtles forever.

You really have a hard-on for the 1987 OT, don't you? I admire your tenacity and drive, I just think it would be better served in helping end racism or sexism or homophobia. Just a thought. I hate to be the guy telling people "it's just a show" or "don't get worked up people are dying overseas" but at this point, you have the wide-eyed obsessive drive of someone who can do great things, consequences and the old way of things be damned.

Go big or go home, 1987... set thy eyes upon the stars and touch the face of God.

[jenna]

All this Turtles Forever talk has made me want to watch it: bit of FW turtles acting whacky, a bit of 2k3 turtles acting like d***s, bit of Mirage Shredder being defeated by trash cans. It's all good. What matters is that this film flew in the face of the way the franchise was being dismantled and destroyed at the time. I don't believe Peter Laird wanted to sh!t on the OT, I believe he was asserting that the turtles would survive being cancelled and sold and erased and rebooted by new blood. Yup. Fancy watching it. That's my Monday evening sorted. Thanks for the inspiration fellas. *ducks and runs for cover*.

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, now I want to watch it again, too. It was more of an end of an era type thing and I liked the plot of Shredder trying to erase all of the TMNT universes collectively though he failed to see that in doing so, he'd be erasing his own existence as well.

[Wesley]

You really should watch TF. I think you'd get a real kick out of it. At first you';ll be like, "meh"...but by the end you'll be like "Oh yeah!"

Trust in 42. It is the answer to all of life's questions.

Agreed. TF starts off slowly, but gets much better after a while. It's a great love letter to tmnt fans.

[jenna]

Yeah, now I want to watch it again, too. It was more of an end of an era type thing and I liked the plot of Shredder trying to erase all of the TMNT universes collectively though he failed to see that in doing so, he'd be erasing his own existence as well.

Yes! It's such a great metaphor! And a very dignified way to exit, with such good humour, self-effacement and grace.

PS - totally watching it right now!!! :D

[Xav]

not just the turtles, but it was pretty crude how they had 2k3 shredder just come in and smack OT shredder across the room like nothing, thats pretty insulting to the OT.OT Shredder also gassed the 2k3 Shredder, who would've been dissected if not for Karai rescuing him. In fact it was the OT Shredder's own henchmen who ended up killing the 2k3 Shredder in the end. So who was really insulted?

[Wesley]

OT Shredder also gassed the 2k3 Shredder, who would've been dissected if not for Karai rescuing him. In fact it was the OT Shredder's own henchmen who ended up killing the 2k3 Shredder in the end. So who was really insulted?

I don't think any character was really insulted in Turtles Forever. I remember OT Shredder gassing Ch'rell and thought that was ruthless. He and Krang also took back the upgraded Technodrome and got access to Utrom technology at the end, so they had the last laugh.

[Yabuturtle]

I don't think any character was really insulted in Turtles Forever. Regarding OT Shredder, he and Krang took back the upgraded Technodrome and got access to Utrom technology at the end, so they had the last laugh.

I sometimes wondered how upgraded it really was? It had a different design, but that's about it. The OT Technodrome could hover above ground using an anti gravity field in Return of the Technodrome and it did have a force field in The Big Blow Out. Not to mention they had the transdimensional portal, something 03 Shredder didn't have.

So I guess if it really was upgraded well, did Krang and Shredder take over the world or did the OT Turtles win? They didn't show that, but they also didn't show what happened to OT April when she was kidnapped by that mutant banana.

[Wesley]

I sometimes wondered how upgraded it really was? It had a different design, but that's about it. The OT Technodrome could hover above ground using an anti gravity field in Return of the Technodrome and it did have a force field in The Big Blow Out. Not to mention they had the transdimensional portal, something 03 Shredder didn't have.

So I guess if it really was upgraded well, did Krang and Shredder take over the world or did the OT Turtles win? They didn't show that, but they also didn't show what happened to OT April when she was kidnapped by that mutant banana.

I think the writers of the movie left it up to the viewers to imagine what might have happened in the OT universe and I like coming up with my own idea of what happened.

[pennydreadful]

I spite-watched TF again last night thanks to this thread. :tlol:

[Metalwolf]

Personally, I don't even like TF. Never seen it; don't like the idea of a TMNT multiverse. I prefer separate sandboxes for different versions, and don't want any type of multi-Turtle crossover. Messes with my personal mind-canons.
Yeah, that's the same thing with me too, it's the major reason I don't like the movie. I tried saying this reason for it, but everyone was like "Oh no, a multiverse is the best thing, making it a multiverse is makes them all matter blah blah blah." People didn't want each iteration even considered a retelling or a re-interpretation of the characters, it had to be a multiverse.

'Multiverse' seems to be some fad that everyone wanted to jump onto after DC and Marvel did it, I never liked them because I just could never (like you) want everything to be so connected. I couldn't help at the time but get annoyed (and remain so) because everybody wants you to join in and sing it's praises along with them, even though knowing that there is hundreds or thousands of a character existing all at the same time never appealed to me.

I think what would be good, is if there is understanding that not everybody liked the Turtles Forever movie. It would lessen the infighting and allow people to say what they didn't like about it, without a pile of 3-4 TF fans piling on any one dissenter and saying 'Well I liked it, shame you can't be the same way.'

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Yeah, that's the same thing with me too, it's the major reason I don't like the movie. I tried saying this reason for it, but everyone was like "Oh no, a multiverse is the best thing, making it a multiverse is makes them all matter blah blah blah." People didn't want each iteration even considered a retelling or a re-interpretation of the characters, it had to be a multiverse.

'Multiverse' seems to be some fad that everyone wanted to jump onto after DC and Marvel did it, I never liked them because I just could never (like you) want everything to be so connected. I couldn't help at the time but get annoyed (and remain so) because everybody wants you to join in and sing it's praises along with them, even though knowing that there is hundreds or thousands of a character existing all at the same time never appealed to me.

I think what would be good, is if there is understanding that not everybody liked the Turtles Forever movie. It would lessen the infighting and allow people to say what they didn't like about it, without a pile of 3-4 TF fans piling on any one dissenter and saying 'Well I liked it, shame you can't be the same way.'

Multiverse seems to be what most people who like comics support, but the thing is, from the outside looking in, it's overly complicated, unnecessary, and bogs down a story. Of all the comic series I've tried, the only ones I can get into and enjoy are "indie" or "third party" or whatever you want to call them.

Skullkickers, Hellboy, Rat Queens, Saga, some others I'm not remembering right now, and of course, TMNT.

Recent movies and TV shows have turned me on to Green Arrow, The Flash, Iron Man, Captain America, X-Men, Ant-Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. I like the ideas of Aquaman and Wonder Woman. I've always been a Batman fan. But the comics don't interest me. They're vast and unwieldy, always crossing over, multiversing, propping up weaker comics, referencing storylines and characters from literally generations ago... I'm not gonna insult anyone for liking them. But it's definitely not for me.

Separate sandboxes, so that when a cat pisses in one, my toys in the other sandbox are still clean. That's my motto. (What, you don't have cats and urine-soaked sandboxes? C'mon, that was a great analogy.)

[Metalwolf]

Multiverse seems to be what most people who like comics support, but the thing is, from the outside looking in, it's overly complicated, unnecessary, and bogs down a story. Of all the comic series I've tried, the only ones I can get into and enjoy are "indie" or "third party" or whatever you want to call them.

Skullkickers, Hellboy, Rat Queens, Saga, some others I'm not remembering right now, and of course, TMNT.Plus they seem like they are forced to 'kill' the whole multiverse every 20 years once it inevitably grows too big and unwieldy, always claiming it's to make one unified and simple universe even while they keep wanting to claim such and such book/tv show/ movie is a 'new universe.' Marvel is doing that right now, they are nuking a whole bunch of 'universes' once again to make it 'new and fresh,' it's not going to last long far as I can tell.




Recent movies and TV shows have turned me on to Green Arrow, The Flash, Iron Man, Captain America, X-Men, Ant-Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, etc. I like the ideas of Aquaman and Wonder Woman. I've always been a Batman fan. But the comics don't interest me. They're vast and unwieldy, always crossing over, multiversing, propping up weaker comics, referencing storylines and characters from literally generations ago... I'm not gonna insult anyone for liking them. But it's definitely not for me.Yeah, same here. I like all of the Ironman movies, I liked the first Avengers (haven't seen the others) though I want to see those too.

Most comics I can't get into for those reasons either, I like some like Batman: Red Rain and all, but that's because that was a stand alone trilogy and was made by some indy guys. I like some Star Wars, Predator and Alien comics (whenever I can get them) but they don't seem to have a 'multiverse' and the best ones are done through Dark Horse.

Separate sandboxes, so that when a cat pisses in one, my toys in the other sandbox are still clean. That's my motto. (What, you don't have cats and urine-soaked sandboxes? C'mon, that was a great analogy.)1000% agreed. It's like people not wanting NM, Turtle Tunes or A Turtle Christmas lumped in with the rest of Turtledom, but according to the 'multiverse' they are a whole legit universe just as much as the grade A stuff. But the 'separate sandboxes' as you say, allows people to consider them irrelevant and even never existing in their own Turtle canon, even to the extent of personally considering one particular iteration as the only one to ever 'exist' if they so wanted.

And yes, I do have a cat. So I do so totally get the urine-soaked sandbox analogy :twink:

[Commenter 42]

All this Turtles Forever talk has made me want to watch it: bit of FW turtles acting whacky, a bit of 2k3 turtles acting like d***s, bit of Mirage Shredder being defeated by trash cans. It's all good. What matters is that this film flew in the face of the way the franchise was being dismantled and destroyed at the time. I don't believe Peter Laird wanted to sh!t on the OT, I believe he was asserting that the turtles would survive being cancelled and sold and erased and rebooted by new blood. Yup. Fancy watching it. That's my Monday evening sorted. Thanks for the inspiration fellas. *ducks and runs for cover*.

Oh, absolutely! The beauty of the film is how many ideas are presented arm in arm. Lots to dissect, from the perspective of a fan. I simply wanted to assure our buddy 1987, that yes, he's not crazy, it wasn't 100% accurate, they exaggerated things, skewed them, on purpose, to make funny.

I know he hated the OT, but to me sounds petty for him to exaggerate them and I believe Laird is just jealous that a different version of the Turtles became more popular this his version. Kevin luckily couldn't care less as long as it makes people happy.


Yes, Laird wasn't a fan of the OT, but was he jealous? Considering he made 50 million in 1990 alone (according to forbes). I doubt he was jealous. He also sold it for 60 million, 20 years later, and then there's all the moohlah in between.

If you read his blog, Peter is very, let's use the word particular, when it comes to his baby.
He's also particular about spelling and grammar. It's who he is I gather.

Kevin, seems to give two sh!ts. He's just happy the golden goose keeps crapping gold bars.

[Leo656]

"Reimagining" is one thing. But you CAN'T simply pretend that other versions of the TMNT don't exist. THEY DO. Completely parallel and separate from each other, but they DO exist. One version doesn't "wipe out" or "erase" what came before, they all co-exist. People can like one over the other, or say there were bits and pieces they prefer to "keep" or "ignore" in their own headcanon, but you can't pretend one version comes along and suddenly the one(s) before it no longer exists.

THAT's what a "Multiverse" means. That stories don't "End", they just get put aside for a while when someone creates a new TMNT "universe", but that world still exists and people can still tell stories there. It's really not very complicated. At all. It IS the best way to handle any fictional property that has a half-dozen contradicting versions. Because the only alternative is to say that one version is "more right" than another one, which you can't do, because every version is someone's favorite.

Also? People who don't read or understand comic books shouldn't try and debate their tropes and trappings. Just saying.

[Commenter 42]

Also? People who don't read or understand comic books shouldn't try and debate their tropes and trappings. Just saying.

hmmmmmmm

Is that a little jab over here? Are we gonna do the whole Batman is/isn't a tragic fellow debate again? :lol:

Cause, you know HE TOTALY IS! :lol:

[Leo656]

HE is tragic, the STORY isn't tragic because he's not the only character in the story, he's just the tragic character OF the story! Everyone else he's connected to is redeemed through his sacrifice and that's what makes him a Hero!

Nah, we're not doing it, I just did it. :tgrin:

[Commenter 42]

HE is tragic, the STORY isn't tragic because he's not the only character in the story, he's just the tragic character OF the story! Everyone else he's connected to is redeemed through his sacrifice and that's what makes him a Hero!

Nah, we're not doing it, I just did it. :tgrin:

Harley Quinn - Tragic
Barbara Gordon - Tragic
Jim Gordon - Tragic
Twoface - Tragic
Scarecrow - Tragic
Jason Todd - Tragic
Waynes Patrents - Tragic
Penguin - Tragic
Freeze - Tragic.

Catwoman - comedic
Joker - comedic

Alfred - Hard to say

Basically, Gotham is Hell, the villains are all tortured souls, and Bruce appointed himself Sheriff of sh!tsville. No one wins in Gotham, not even the citizens.

You can argue it all you want, but the reality is, Batman is tragic, and thus the story is tragic, because he thinks he's doing right, when all he is doing is wrong.
Whose best served by Batman? A guy who tries to impose black and white rules on a grey world, from the seat of privilege, for purely selfish reasons. His Gestapo mentality puts all in gotham under his thumb, like a Tyrant.

[Leo656]

More than half of those people are villains, I'm talking about the people he INSPIRES. Like Dick, who grows up and says, "We have the exact same origin, but I have a completely different outlook on life. Unlike you, I don't feel like I have to be angry my whole life, and I want to be a hero for entirely different reasons." Bruce and Dick were both Batman, and they have almost the exact same origin, but they're entirely different people, and Dick Grayson is hardly ever called a "tragic" character. He is a character who grew OUT OF tragedy... inspired by Batman. The same can be said for Tim. Barbara's tragic, but she refuses to let tragedy define her, or be a victim. She rises, and inspires... inspired by Batman. It is THROUGH their collective tragedies, and their shared inspiration from Bruce's sacrifice, that they become Heroes. Which is what makes it a Heroic story, not simply a Tragic one. C'mon, buddy. Missin' some easy ones here.

Again, though, I think you're coming to it more Nolan Batman than Comics Batman. Batman already went through his Big Brother phase in the comics and decided it didn't work, when his spy satellite and its army of cyborg sleeper agents went berserk and almost wiped out all of existence. He's a lot more mellow since then. But I imagine anybody would be.

But anyways, Comic Batman and Movie Batman are very different people. There's a lot more layers to Comics Batman, for one thing. He's NOT a static character. His methods, moods, and outlook have shifted at various times in his life, even in just the "modern" era from 1986 to 2010-ish. That's one long timeline where it's all the same Batman, on the same "Earth" in the same "Universe", but he's very different at the end than he was in the beginning. Again, yeah, there's been times when he's been kind of the Batman you described, but he usually doesn't stay in that place.

But again, I'm pretty sure you're looking at Nolan Batman and I'm looking at comics Batman. And they're very different all over.

[Powder]

For Christ's sake, take it to PM's, you two.

[Leo656]

You're not even my real Dad! ((Throws vase))

[Bry]

LoHQOeRNnPU

Tragic.

:D

[BubblyShell22]

"Reimagining" is one thing. But you CAN'T simply pretend that other versions of the TMNT don't exist. THEY DO. Completely parallel and separate from each other, but they DO exist. One version doesn't "wipe out" or "erase" what came before, they all co-exist. People can like one over the other, or say there were bits and pieces they prefer to "keep" or "ignore" in their own headcanon, but you can't pretend one version comes along and suddenly the one(s) before it no longer exists.

THAT's what a "Multiverse" means. That stories don't "End", they just get put aside for a while when someone creates a new TMNT "universe", but that world still exists and people can still tell stories there. It's really not very complicated. At all. It IS the best way to handle any fictional property that has a half-dozen contradicting versions. Because the only alternative is to say that one version is "more right" than another one, which you can't do, because every version is someone's favorite.

Also? People who don't read or understand comic books shouldn't try and debate their tropes and trappings. Just saying.

This so true. As much as I want to pretend that NM, Fast Forward, Back to the Sewers, and the Bay movie don't exist, they do. I can choose to ignore them and focus on the canon that I do like, but the fact remains that they did happen whether we like it or not. I like the idea of a multiverse myself because it's definitely the best way to explain things. And TF did that because there are multiple TMNT universes and they paid homage to them. I loved how they included Mirage as that is the original source material, and that was really cool.

[Commenter 42]

Tragic.

:D

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

So do I get the win, or are we gonna have to crash one of the other 26 threads about TF's blasphemous FW bashing, and derail those as well?
Concede Leo! Concede now!
( For the record, No, I'm not talking Nolan Batman. I hated those films(ist and last -2nd was good). They in and of themselves were tragic. I'm talking the main premise, and looking at it for what it is.)



ON TOPIC:
.........zzzzzzzzzz.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

"Reimagining" is one thing. But you CAN'T simply pretend that other versions of the TMNT don't exist. THEY DO. Completely parallel and separate from each other, but they DO exist. One version doesn't "wipe out" or "erase" what came before, they all co-exist. People can like one over the other, or say there were bits and pieces they prefer to "keep" or "ignore" in their own headcanon, but you can't pretend one version comes along and suddenly the one(s) before it no longer exists.

THAT's what a "Multiverse" means. That stories don't "End", they just get put aside for a while when someone creates a new TMNT "universe", but that world still exists and people can still tell stories there. It's really not very complicated. At all. It IS the best way to handle any fictional property that has a half-dozen contradicting versions. Because the only alternative is to say that one version is "more right" than another one, which you can't do, because every version is someone's favorite.

Also? People who don't read or understand comic books shouldn't try and debate their tropes and trappings. Just saying.

Multiverse means two very different things, inside or outside of the story. Outside of the story, it's as simple as "same characters, different versions, different history, because we want to tell new stories." The other is a whole cluster of different parallel realities sloppily bouncing against each other, converging, diverging, blending... (e.g. the DC or Marvel multiverses)

And no one is saying that The Next Mutation or TMNT 2014 don't exist; this is the real world and we know it exists. But as far as having to worry about Venus or Eric Sachs stumbling into the Nick or IDW TMNT worlds? THAT is where an internal (story) multiverse comes in, and that's where I prefer it to not exist. I don't want Venus or Eric Sachs or Cudley the Cowlick showing up in IDW or Nick. I want these universes separate. If an internal (story) multiverse story happens, I want it to be cameos only (like Ghostbusters or Nick have already done) and not drastically affect the outcome of multiple narratives (Turtles Forever).

And yes, when you've been around as long as Batman or Spiderman, I agree that comics do probably need some form of multiverse to be able to keep operating and reference what has come before. TMNT isn't that big; it doesn't need one.

And please don't say that I or someone else don't understand comic books; I do, and I choose to not enjoy them for my own reasons. But if you do, more power to you. I already know I'm in the minority and I'm fine with that. Just don't question my intelligence; it adds nothing to your argument while making your own position look a little more juvenile.

[Yabuturtle]

Oh, absolutely! The beauty of the film is how many ideas are presented arm in arm. Lots to dissect, from the perspective of a fan. I simply wanted to assure our buddy 1987, that yes, he's not crazy, it wasn't 100% accurate, they exaggerated things, skewed them, on purpose, to make funny.




Yes, Laird wasn't a fan of the OT, but was he jealous? Considering he made 50 million in 1990 alone (according to forbes). I doubt he was jealous. He also sold it for 60 million, 20 years later, and then there's all the moohlah in between.

If you read his blog, Peter is very, let's use the word particular, when it comes to his baby.
He's also particular about spelling and grammar. It's who he is I gather.

Kevin, seems to give two sh!ts. He's just happy the golden goose keeps crapping gold bars.

No he's jealous.

Very jealous.

Ok maybe not extremely so but the OT made a lot more money overall and I feel he was jealous that cartoon he didn't like and was vastly different from his comic not only was more successful, but it was because of that, that his comic got the recognition it has now. NOBODY I knew even knew about the original TMNT comic until the cartoon came out and even the Archie comic, the comic based on the cartoon was more well known than the original comic. The comic was out there but the 1987 series made it more well known. It was all because of the cartoon. The cartoon he didn't like. So you could tell he probably has some resentment, although he should be grateful that his comic is more known because of the cartoon. Kevin didn't care, so why did Peter? I wouldn't care as long as people are happy from looking at it.

[plastroncafe]

The word you're looking for is envious.
Jealous means you're afraid someone is going to take something of yours away from you. Envious is wishing you had something someone else has.

Now he might have been jealous back during the run of the FW cartoon, but if he's anything when Turtles Forever came out, it was envious.

And I doubt he was even that.

[neatoman]

No he's jealous.

Very jealous.

Ok maybe not extremely so but the OT made a lot more money overall and I feel he was jealous that cartoon he didn't like and was vastly different from his comic not only was more successful, but it was because of that, that his comic got the recognition it has now. NOBODY I knew even knew about the original TMNT comic until the cartoon came out and even the Archie comic, the comic based on the cartoon was more well known than the original comic. The comic was out there but the 1987 series made it more well known. It was all because of the cartoon. The cartoon he didn't like. So you could tell he probably has some resentment, although he should be grateful that his comic is more known because of the cartoon. Kevin didn't care, so why did Peter? I wouldn't care as long as people are happy from looking at it.

You seem to forget that his problems with that show might have something to with quality. As popular as the Fred Wolf cartoon may have been, it's not a very good show when you step back and analyse it.

It's full of continuity errors, animation errors, sound mixing errors, a distinct lack of editing, the episode formula has too little variation and some episodes can't even be called finished. Some errors are even so shameless it's a disgrace they didn't fix them.

Back in the day, little kids probably didn't care because little kids don't have very high demands, but what about Peter Laird who was in his 30's?

[Yabuturtle]

You seem to forget that his problems with that show might have something to with quality. As popular as the Fred Wolf cartoon may have been, it's not a very good show when you step back and analyse it.

It's full of continuity errors, animation errors, sound mixing errors, a distinct lack of editing, the episode formula has too little variation and some episodes can't even be called finished. Some errors are even so shameless it's a disgrace they didn't fix them.

Back in the day, little kids probably didn't care because little kids don't have very high demands, but what about Peter Laird who was in his 30's?

There are some errors but a lot of shows back then had just as many if not more errors. Mistakes happen. but Peter always seemed to be a nit picky person anyway, picking apart every detail.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

There are some errors but a lot of shows back then had just as many if not more errors. Mistakes happen. but Peter always seemed to be a nit picky person anyway, picking apart every detail.

As is his right, as co-creator.

[plastroncafe]

Not only that, but a co-creator who was no where near as business savvy during the FW years as he was during the 2k3 years.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Not only that, but a co-creator who was no where near as business savvy during the FW years as he was during the 2k3 years.

Exactly. Fred Wolf TMNT may have started Turtlemania, but 4Kids proved that a TMNT cartoon could be well-written over four-five seasons and be taken seriously.

There's a reason lots of people make fun of us (both kids and adults) who like TMNT. Newsflash: that reason is the Fred Wolf cartoon.

[Yabuturtle]

Exactly. Fred Wolf TMNT may have started Turtlemania, but 4Kids proved that a TMNT cartoon could be well-written over four-five seasons and be taken seriously.

There's a reason lots of people make fun of us (both kids and adults) who like TMNT. Newsflash: that reason is the Fred Wolf cartoon.

03 was good with the first few seasons and went downhill with Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers. Strangely Laird and Eastman had more say in the 03 cartoon, yet you'd think they would have wanted the 03 cartoon to be more like the comic. It was darker but it was still marketed for kids.

Fred Wolf had very silly moments but people seem to think every single episode was goofy and that isn't true. There were some serious moments, and not just from the Red Sky seasons, too. Oddly, the Fred Wolf cartoon started goofy and became more serious, yet the 03 cartoon started serious and became goofier later on.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Which is why I believe we need to move away from the Fred Wolf era. While it made most of us fans, it also started the trend that a lot of us are not fond of; TMNT not being taken seriously.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Which is why I believe we need to move away from the Fred Wolf era. While it made most of us fans, it also started the trend that a lot of us are not fond of; TMNT not being taken seriously.

Absolutely agree; and of course, it's pretty much the only thing Platinum Dunes is referencing... just to keep us looking like idiots.

03 was good with the first few seasons and went downhill with Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers. Strangely Laird and Eastman had more say in the 03 cartoon, yet you'd think they would have wanted the 03 cartoon to be more like the comic. It was darker but it was still marketed for kids.

Fred Wolf had very silly moments but people seem to think every single episode was goofy and that isn't true. There were some serious moments, and not just from the Red Sky seasons, too. Oddly, the Fred Wolf cartoon started goofy and became more serious, yet the 03 cartoon started serious and became goofier later on.

Fred Wolf had ten seasons, m'boy. TEN. First was great, second was good, maybe the third, too... after that, it was just self-perpetuating.

4Kids went downhill once toy sales slacked off, so then all of a sudden, they had to pander and reinvent the wheel to generate "awesome" new toys. But
Seasons 1-4 were amazing, and Season 5 was okay, except it was such a drastic shift in style.

[Bry]

Say you're an amateur mechanic. You meet another mechanic and strike up a friendship over your mutual interest and soon become quite close. One day an idea hits the two of you, an idea for a really cool car that you can't get out of your heads. So you two decide, y'know what? Let's build the thing! You put in a lot of time, but eventually you finish it, and it turned out pretty great. It's not the "best" or fanciest car in the world, but it looks cool and runs well and has some clever features you can't find anywhere else. You're pretty proud of it, so you take it to some car shows. It quickly develops a strong cult following, and soon you and your friend are swamped with orders. You hire some other friends, start up your own garage, and get to work on what's become a profitable new business.

Licensors and a major car company notice the buzz around your car and offer you a deal: they want to mass produce a version of your car, and a bunch of merchandise to go with the brand, and they'll pay you a lot of money for the rights. They'll have to make some alterations from your design to make it feasible for the mass market, but you'll maintain ownership over your original designs and concepts, and your names will be on any newer versions released. This is a big break for you, and you don't have much experience or sway in this kind of business to reasonably ask for anything more, so you gladly take the deal.

Some time later, they release their version of your car... and it's nothing like your original vision. It's not a bad car necessarily, but the look is completely different, the clever features you included have all been taken out, and it's a lot... cheaper, overall. But it sells. By god, it sells. You make a lot of money, the company makes a lot of money, everyone makes a lot of money. And you're happy for that. You're disappointed that this car isn't the idea you were so passionate about, but you can accept it, considering your success.

A number of years pass. Sales start dropping - first slowly, then more quickly. Eventually the company stops producing the car outright. People stop talking about it. You and your friend drift apart, but you've both done very well for yourselves, and the rest of the mechanic gang are mostly still around and you've still got the garage. Your friend moves out west and tries to bring back a version of the corporate car without you, but it never really goes anywhere.

But... you still can't get that original idea out of your head. Years pass, and eventually you get that charge of motivation again - you're gonna bring back your car, and you're gonna do it on your terms. And it turns out there's still a following: the same people who loved your original design and some others who'd managed to discover it in the years since. You team up with a smaller company, this time as partners. A new version of the car is released - it has some alterations from your design too, but much smaller ones, and you have final say on how it turns out. You're pretty satisfied with it, and it becomes successful in its own right; nowhere near as successful as the old corporate version, but still successful!

Everything should be great, and it mostly is. But you find that, no matter how hard you work at what you're doing now, there are a lot of people nostalgic for that corporate car. They'll only associate you with the version you didn't have much to do with, and some are dismissing or actively insulting your current work because of it. Even when you're promoting the new version, there always seem to be some people who only want to talk about the old corporate version. Even though everybody stopped buying that version years ago, it's not even being produced anymore, and your current version is doing well on its own, you can't escape certain customers' overwhelming nostalgia.

You have a decent run - not as big or long as the last one, but very respectable. But eventually sales start dwindling again. Then another, different major company makes you a deal: they want to buy the concept outright. You've managed to see your vision (or something close to it) through in the mass market and you're getting pretty tired of the business, so you take the offer. But this lines up with the 25th anniversary of that very first car, so you and your partners decide to go out with a bang. You put out a special edition of all three versions of the car - the original, the new version, and the corporate version - before the new owners take over. And once they're released... those same customers complain about what you did to the corporate car (which they insist on calling the "original"). Apparently the colour's slightly off and the dashboard texture is slightly different, but as far as they're concerned, you've ruined it, and they want to make sure everyone knows it.

You sign the papers and retire.


...uh, whew. That kinda took on a life of its own. I'mma shamelessly steal pennydreadful's bit and offer free Tyrion gifs to anyone who actually read all that. :trazz:


TL;DR Version: Peter Laird can't win, basically. The creative and business sides almost never get along, and that's especially hard for a creator who actually cares about their property and is picky about how it "works". That's absolutely his right, him more than almost anyone, but it leaves him open to attacks and dismissals from some fans who can't deal with their nostalgia not being the be-all, end-all of the whole property.

[CyberCubed]

You seem to forget that his problems with that show might have something to with quality. As popular as the Fred Wolf cartoon may have been, it's not a very good show when you step back and analyse it.

It's full of continuity errors, animation errors, sound mixing errors, a distinct lack of editing, the episode formula has too little variation and some episodes can't even be called finished. Some errors are even so shameless it's a disgrace they didn't fix them.

Back in the day, little kids probably didn't care because little kids don't have very high demands, but what about Peter Laird who was in his 30's?

No cartoons from the 80's or early 90's had a strong continuity. Even Batman: TAS was episodic and had no continuing plotlines.

Cartoons back then had little continuity because the channels would air episodes in random order and it wouldn't really matter. If you take into context the time period these shows were made, they stand up well for the time.

Back then cartoons were not expected to have story arcs or major character development. Usually recurring villains was the only continuity shows had back then and that's it.

[plastroncafe]

Citation please, because I find it very hard to believe that there were no cartoons with an overarching plot in the twenty years that make up the 1980s and 1990s.

Off the top of my head I'm thinking: X-Men and Mighty Max, and I'm sure we could put our heads together to think of more.

[CyberCubed]

Citation please.

What cartoons had strong continuity back then? It was really only when a recurring villain returned they would recognize them but that's it.

Episodes were mostly episodic, there were very little "2-parters" and so forth.

[plastroncafe]

In addition to the ones I mentioned above, there's also Reboot.

[neatoman]

Spider-Man had continuity and many shorter series' had continuity.

[Yabuturtle]

Absolutely agree; and of course, it's pretty much the only thing Platinum Dunes is referencing... just to keep us looking like idiots.



Fred Wolf had ten seasons, m'boy. TEN. First was great, second was good, maybe the third, too... after that, it was just self-perpetuating.

4Kids went downhill once toy sales slacked off, so then all of a sudden, they had to pander and reinvent the wheel to generate "awesome" new toys. But
Seasons 1-4 were amazing, and Season 5 was okay, except it was such a drastic shift in style.

I think it was more than just 3 seasons that made the OT good. 3rd season, I think had one of the best episodes, including Turtles on Trial. 4th and 5th weren't too good and 6th started getting better following the 7th season which had interesting episodes. Some of the best episodes in the OT were from the Red Sky season, like with Split Second or State of Shock.

It's odd to see the Turtles in a more serious light because just read the title: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Doesn't that sound like a silly comedy and not a gritty, complex, violent series? That's exactly what the OT delivered. It delivered family friendly fun action and comedy and we loved it.

I feel as if there is no show that really betrays one another, it's just another version. The OT while drastically different from the comic, doesn't destroy the comic. The comic still exists. It's just one of many ways of envisioning the show. For those who love silly comedy, the OT is perfect. For someone who wants more action with complex storylines, the 03 show is perfect.

[CyberCubed]

The better episodes of the original cartoon are still enjoyable to this day. There's a lot of fun humor and wacky plots in the show, and the personalities of the main cast and villains made it charming. If you're looking for some plot driven show with lots of continuity and development...then no you're not going to get it. But its just a show that you can randomly watch and enjoy.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

What cartoons had strong continuity back then? It was really only when a recurring villain returned they would recognize them but that's it.

Episodes were mostly episodic, there were very little "2-parters" and so forth.

Wrong, Batman TAS had arcs and strong continuity.


Harvey Dent becoming TwoFace.
Robin becoming Nightwing and a new Robin.
Batgirl joining the team.
Mr Freeze's slow and steady descent.


Just off the top of my head, mate.

[Yabuturtle]

Wrong, Batman TAS had arcs and strong continuity.


Harvey Dent becoming TwoFace.
Robin becoming Nightwing and a new Robin.
Batgirl joining the team.
Mr Freeze's slow and steady descent.


Just off the top of my head, mate.

He said episodes were MOSTLY episodic. There was some continuity but heck even TMNT 1987 had continuity, what with Baxter Stockman ending up in the asylum and later becomes a mutant fly, Bebop and Rocksteady becoming mutants, the Technodrome ending up everwhere, ect. if you want to be technical.

But the OT isn't one of those shows where you HAVE to watch it from the beginning or you'll get confused. Dragon Ball Z however, is a continuing story where you kinda have to watch it from the beginning.

Gargoyles had some arcs as well as Spider-Man, X-Men, Mighty Max ect. but with Batman, we all know his backstory and can jump right in.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

He said episodes were MOSTLY episodic. There was some continuity but heck even TMNT 1987 had continuity, what with Baxter Stockman ending up in the asylum and later becomes a mutant fly, Bebop and Rocksteady becoming mutants, the Technodrome ending up everwhere, ect. if you want to be technical.

But the OT isn't one of those shows where you HAVE to watch it from the beginning or you'll get confused. Dragon Ball Z however, is a continuing story where you kinda have to watch it from the beginning.

Gargoyles had some arcs as well as Spider-Man, X-Men, Mighty Max ect. but with Batman, we all know his backstory and can jump right in.

With OT TMNT, for the majority of its run, the show built off nothing but the first dozen or so episodes. From that point, once Baxter was a fly, you could pretty much watch any episode in any order all the way up until Red Sky.

Very different, IMO

[Wesley]

No cartoons from the 80's or early 90's had a strong continuity. Even Batman: TAS was episodic and had no continuing plotlines.

Cartoons back then had little continuity because the channels would air episodes in random order and it wouldn't really matter. If you take into context the time period these shows were made, they stand up well for the time.

Back then cartoons were not expected to have story arcs or major character development. Usually recurring villains was the only continuity shows had back then and that's it.

There were some cartoons from the 90s that had good continuity like X-Men TAS, Spiderman TAS, The Incredible Hulk, cadillacs and dinosaurs, Extreme Ghostbusters, Xyber 9, etc.

I think it was more than just 3 seasons that made the OT good. 3rd season, I think had one of the best episodes, including Turtles on Trial. 4th and 5th weren't too good and 6th started getting better following the 7th season which had interesting episodes. Some of the best episodes in the OT were from the Red Sky season, like with Split Second or State of Shock.

It's odd to see the Turtles in a more serious light because just read the title: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Doesn't that sound like a silly comedy and not a gritty, complex, violent series? That's exactly what the OT delivered. It delivered family friendly fun action and comedy and we loved it.

I feel as if there is no show that really betrays one another, it's just another version. The OT while drastically different from the comic, doesn't destroy the comic. The comic still exists. It's just one of many ways of envisioning the show. For those who love silly comedy, the OT is perfect. For someone who wants more action with complex storylines, the 03 show is perfect.

The OT was a product of its time and parts of it haven't aged well. I loved the cartoon when I was a kid, but it's not as good as I remembered it. It was on the air for too long and could've been condensed into five seasons. There are a lot of problems with the show, though nearly half of the episodes are still fun to watch. It's still a fun comedy with some action in it. It's one of those guilty pleasure shows like 2 Broke Girls and Charmed. I think the best seasons were one, two, three, seven, eight and ten. I prefer the 2003 series, as it had better characterisation and story arcs. It was based on the original Mirage Comics and has aged well.

[CyberCubed]

Wrong, Batman TAS had arcs and strong continuity.


Harvey Dent becoming TwoFace.
Robin becoming Nightwing and a new Robin.
Batgirl joining the team.
Mr Freeze's slow and steady descent.


Just off the top of my head, mate.

Those aren't story arcs, besides Harvey Dent. Everything you listed happens in like one or two episodes. In fact Robin's transformation to Nightwing happened off-screen and they had to make a flashback episode to explain it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Those aren't story arcs, besides Harvey Dent. Everything you listed happens in like one or two episodes. In fact Robin's transformation to Nightwing happened off-screen and they had to make a flashback episode to explain it.

Meh, still more story arc or building than OT TMNT ever had.

[CyberCubed]

Meh, still more story arc or building than OT TMNT ever had.

Well obviously, but still most cartoons from that time didn't have huge ongoing storylines. Whenever a superhero show did have a story arc it was usually something like a 2-3 parter and that's it.

Compare it to a more modern show like Young Justice which had a huge storylines, character arcs, and every episode continued from the last to older shows...and its pretty noticeable.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Well obviously, but still most cartoons from that time didn't have huge ongoing storylines. Whenever a superhero show did have a story arc it was usually something like a 2-3 parter and that's it.

Compare it to a more modern show like Young Justice which had a huge storylines, character arcs, and every episode continued from the last to older shows...and its pretty noticeable.

Dammit, Cubed, I hate it when you're right. :tlol:

Actually, I think Star Trek Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5 were some of the first television shows to start moving away from "monster of the week" or "planet of the week" shows to long-form storytelling. Not sure which would have been the first cartoons...

I suppose you could make a case that Pokemon was long-form, but I never really followed that so this is just a random guess.

[CyberCubed]

I'd say Gargoyles was the first cartoon that actually had a really strong continuity with arcs and development. Its why it was a fan favorite.

[Jephael]

I find it very hard to believe that there were no cartoons with an overarching plot in the twenty years that make up the 1980s and 1990s.

Off the top of my head I'm thinking: X-Men and Mighty Max, and I'm sure we could put our heads together to think of more.

I remember the early episodes of Duck Tales had a lot of continuity to them, though in later seasons not so much.

[Commenter 42]

Dammit, Cubed, I hate it when you're right. :tlol:

Actually, I think Star Trek Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5 were some of the first television shows to start moving away from "monster of the week" or "planet of the week" shows to long-form storytelling. Not sure which would have been the first cartoons...

I suppose you could make a case that Pokemon was long-form, but I never really followed that so this is just a random guess.

Um.... pretty sure you can go further back.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Um.... pretty sure you can go further back.

That's as far back as I go. :tlol: Anything before that doesn't really strike me as modern, though feel free to bring up earlier mainstream serialized shows. Just not like the old OLD Zorro serials in black and white. :tlol:

[1987]

No he's jealous.

Very jealous.

Ok maybe not extremely so but the OT made a lot more money overall and I feel he was jealous that cartoon he didn't like and was vastly different from his comic not only was more successful, but it was because of that, that his comic got the recognition it has now. NOBODY I knew even knew about the original TMNT comic until the cartoon came out and even the Archie comic, the comic based on the cartoon was more well known than the original comic. The comic was out there but the 1987 series made it more well known. It was all because of the cartoon. The cartoon he didn't like. So you could tell he probably has some resentment, although he should be grateful that his comic is more known because of the cartoon. Kevin didn't care, so why did Peter? I wouldn't care as long as people are happy from looking at it.

peter laird's extreme hatred for the ot has been well known for years, he saw the 2k3 series as his chance to take control of his creation. i guess tf was really his way of leaving the franchise with a bang.

ironically, peter laird kinda looks like an ot turtle himself, no seriously no joke. just google a pic of him the smirk that he makes almost looks like an ot turtles smirk, does anyone else see this? maybe that's another reason behind his grudge against the ot.

[Bry]

peter laird's extreme hatred for the ot has been well known for years, he saw the 2k3 series as his chance to take control of his creation. i guess tf was really his way of leaving the franchise with a bang.

ironically, peter laird kinda looks like an ot turtle himself, no seriously no joke. just google a pic of him the smirk that he makes almost looks like an ot turtles smirk, does anyone else see this? maybe that's another reason behind his grudge against the ot.

Really? You're going there now?

I know it probably doesn't feel great knowing that its co-creator isn't fond of Your Favourite Thing... but if you can be this salty about his personal opinions (and whatever perceived slights you claim he's made against it) without catching the hypocrisy, then I don't know what to tell you.

[Powder]

Children's cartoons are VERY serious business, Bry. & behaving like a child when someone doesn't share your opinion about said children's cartoon seems the norm around here, as of late.

[1987]

Really? You're going there now?

I know it probably doesn't feel great knowing that its co-creator isn't fond of Your Favourite Thing... but if you can be this salty about his personal opinions (and whatever perceived slights you claim he's made against it) without catching the hypocrisy, then I don't know what to tell you.

im being serious. this has nothing to do with his opinion on the ot nor mine and has nothing to do with tf. i seriously think he somewhat resembles an ot turtle with his round eyes and smirk and round head. peters a great guy he coinvented the tmnt i have nothing against him or his iteration preferences. i just think he slightly resembles an ot turtle, is that a bad thing?

[Jester]

I have some homework (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-parody) for you, 1987.

[GoldMutant]

Guy, enough with Turtles Forever. Threads are being derailed and angering people to no end. I don't hate the FW cartoon, but I respect it for getting the Ninja Turtles franchise into work. I'm sick of threads derailed from biased opinions and just plain irritating.

The world is full of opinions, they're all out there and like rules will be shattered and played with. That's a summary of it.

[Leo656]

We gotta make new cats pass an entrance exam, man, I'm tellin' ya.

[Jester]

We gotta make new cats pass an entrance exam, man, I'm tellin' ya.
If only, man. If only.

[Xav]

Strangely Laird and Eastman had more say in the 03 cartoon, yet you'd think they would have wanted the 03 cartoon to be more like the comic.Eastman had nothing to do with the 03 cartoon, and it was much more like the comic than the 87 cartoon.

[Prowler]

03 was good with the first few seasons and went downhill with Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers. Strangely Laird and Eastman had more say in the 03 cartoon, yet you'd think they would have wanted the 03 cartoon to be more like the comic. It was darker but it was still marketed for kids.

Fred Wolf had very silly moments but people seem to think every single episode was goofy and that isn't true. There were some serious moments, and not just from the Red Sky seasons, too. Oddly, the Fred Wolf cartoon started goofy and became more serious, yet the 03 cartoon started serious and became goofier later on.
It was probably hard to adapt adult oriented comic stories into a cartoon for kids. The 4kids series was going to be for kids and Laird knew it since he signed that contract. And if you read his e-mails and letters to the writers who asked him for advice(there was a thread with transcripts of them) he actually tried his best to make the show seem serious and not as kiddy.

[Commenter 42]

The ignorance in this thread is at least waist deep, and rising fast.

[BubblyShell22]

We gotta make new cats pass an entrance exam, man, I'm tellin' ya.


I'm with you on this, dude. Seriously.

[Yabuturtle]

Well no matter how much they messed up the OT Turtles, it doesn't matter. Because the OT turtles never really changed. They still exist in the 1987 cartoon. This version doesn't somehow erase the original. If you don't like The TF versions than you can watch the OT version. Problem solved.

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, exactly and the same goes for whatever version you prefer.

[ssjup81]

Citation please, because I find it very hard to believe that there were no cartoons with an overarching plot in the twenty years that make up the 1980s and 1990s.Not so much in the 80s because cable wasn't as widely available as it is now and most shows were syndicated. Having a heavy storyline for a syndicated show would just alienate viewers so self-contained eps where people can tune in anytime and "get it" was the norm. The OT started off in syndication and they just continued the "Shredder and Krang want to take over junk and free the Technodrome" plot for like ever without worrying if a kid misses an ep or if someone new checks the show out.

By the 90s, it seemed like shows were starting to have longer story arcs or experimenting with them, making them more common place by the mid/later part of the 90s up until now, and it seems ongoing storylines became the complete norm after that. More people are subscribed to cable, syndication isn't as common anymore (I actually to explain what that was to someone maybe in their teens a good while back), and we have the internet where it's easy to catch up on what you missed.

As a kid, I don't think I ever fully realized that main plot of the Super Mario Bros Super Show Mario cartoon was not only for Mario and Luigi to find a way back home, but to return Princess Toadstool's people back to normal (the first game's story). I'd forgotten that up until now, until I watched some of it recently. That was a syndicated series. That was the main storyline/plot (which I think they even forgot about at one point), but each episode had a self-contained story, like most "syndicated" shows.Off the top of my head I'm thinking: X-Men and Mighty Max, and I'm sure we could put our heads together to think of more.Yeah, of course. The 90s seems to be where this trend was starting to take place. Ongoing storylines and story arcs.

[pferreira]

No, what makes 2K3/4Kids better is that it took itself mostly seriously, told a linear story, and wasn't in the 80s. :tlol:Ah, now you're talking about episodic writing versus serialised TV. The problem with most serialised (or in your words linear) TV today is that it's simply a lazy, cynical way for producers to ensure people keep watching every week to grab ratings. It doesn't always work if rarely. Episodic writing forces writers to create something new every week, to develop the characters but through different events not simply one. Name me any fairly recent (in the past 10 years) serialised show that does that successfully. There aren't many. Now thankfully the 4Kids was more successful because it did contain some episodic writing but you can't blame the FW series and say it was inferior because it wasn't linear. Star Trek TNG was written exactly the same way and that's a great show. The FW series took itself seriously when it needed to. So what if it was made in the 80s and early 90s. Big deal. :roll:

[pferreira]

It's rare that things we loved as a kid don't age poorly. At least in my experience.
Ha, speak for yourself! :lol:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Ah, now you're talking about episodic writing versus serialised TV. The problem with most serialised (or in your words linear) TV today is that it's simply a lazy, cynical way for producers to ensure people keep watching every week to grab ratings. It doesn't always work if rarely. Episodic writing forces writers to create something new every week, to develop the characters but through different events not simply one. Name me any fairly recent (in the past 10 years) serialised show that does that successfully. There aren't many. Now thankfully the 4Kids was more successful because it did contain some episodic writing but you can't blame the FW series and say it was inferior because it wasn't linear. Star Trek TNG was written exactly the same way and that's a great show. The FW series took itself seriously when it needed to. So what if it was made in the 80s and early 90s. Big deal. :roll:

Linear or serialized TV could be handled inappropriately, but I personally (and I'm certain at least a third of people who enjoy watching stories) have no interest in a show where no lasting character development ever happens. And lasting character development CANNOT happen in a bubble. Outside events or dilemmas have to act upon characters, forcing them to react. And if the producers hit the reset button at the end of the day, and the characters revert back to their previous state, I feel cheated.

Examples of awesome serialized shows, you ask?

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (4Kids)
Battlestar Galactica (Ronald D Moore's version)
Star Trek Deep Space Nine
Doctor Who (relaunch)
The Flash
Arrow
Daredevil

Those are shows that I've personally loved just off the top of my head. I'll even be charitable and throw in Marvel's Agents of SHIELD, seeing how a lot of people seem to like it.

And no, the Fred Wolf series rarely took itself seriously after the first couple of seasons until the Red Sky era. Apparently that's a big part of its lasting charm, although I personally no longer enjoy it. But seriously? That's a VERY hard argument to make. You should provide evidence, because for the moment, I blissfully remain unconvinced.

Ha, speak for yourself! :lol:

I believe I did. :tsmile:

[pferreira]

The reset button only affects episodic storytelling but that doesn't mean there can't be any character development at all. Star Trek TNG as I said before is episodic but has character arcs. Not too sure on some of your examples. I will debate whether new Doctor Who has successful serialised storytelling as most of the complaints from fans are that it never all makes sense. I'm sorry I tried to like the new Battlestar Galactica but I really find it quite awful compared to the original. Some of your other examples I haven't seen so will take your word for it.

I still maintain the FW Turtles took themselves seriously. I mean if there's danger in an episode of course the characters aren't going to sit back and laugh as their lives or others are put on the line so yes the show does display seriousness but not the total seriousness that the 4Kids show did. I guess that's why the latter always struggled with humour.