James Cameron working on a new Terminator movie

[IMJ]

Except we really weren't. Most of us were really holding out hope for the movie. Terminator sorely needed a win, not social justice.

Yup. The whole "SJW-Virtue Signaler" excuse that a film or product failed because the "evil people didn't support it" is a manipulation that can be confusing. Instead, the correct direction is that the movie didn't make any significant money, and therefore most reasonable people rejected it.

If only a few haters rejected these flicks, then these flicks would've made a lot more money because the remaining majority would've seen the movie. If the movie failed because of a "loud, whiny" minority, then that isn't actually a minority at all because it would have made money from the remainder of "virtue signaling society". Basically these leftists who are creating a war are also trying to convince you that most rational people are with them, when in fact most rational people are not. Most people don't believe in or engage in racism or sexism, but that doesn't translate to most people siding with these leftist nuts ether on twitter, in Hollywood or in forum spaces.

Pretty soon these same leftist nuts are going to have no recourse but to show their true colors. As the world comes around to "the lie", you'll find the most insane, unreasonable of people who pimped this nonsense in a corner with diminished ranks, screaming out "it's all of you, the whole world! But I've got it right, I'm the only one who sees it! The whole world is wrong".

The people who support this stuff are haters who are angry at their own lives or people who keep themselves on the fringe of society for whatever reason xyz. Get over it like the rest of us did after High School.

[Sumac]

Slightly off topic, but I've read original script for Terminator 3 and I must, if you don't like current T3 be glad OG script wasn't used, because it's a mess.

It starts with John Connor working in computer company and having control over Cyberdyne. Sarah is alive and trains guerrilla warriors in case of Skynet attack.
Two terminators arrive from the future: T800, who crashes rich rapper party on board of his personal ship and T-1G (terminator from sentient matter, i.e. pure energy), who arrives at bowling alley and looks like a woman.

They both seek John Connor, who discovers that Cyberdyne still attempts to create Skynet. T-1G finds John after his fight with his girlfriend Anna and saves him from attack of T800 (she takes on appearance of Anna, after killing her, but tells John that it was T800 who did it). There is a big chase through the highway (think Matrix Realoaded), which ends up in a subway, where T-1G disguised as Anna kick T800 ass into rubble. She informs John, that Skynet will become active in 40 minutes and that only John's own program can stop it.

They arrive at John's office, where he runs his program to kill Skynet, but apparently it only activates it (Skynet needed final push to achieve complete sentience, and John's attempt to destroy it, gave it to Skynet). T-1G tries to kill John, but he is saved by Sarah and T800. Most of the Sarah fighters die in battle with T-1G and then she shots down Boeing 747 on top of our heroes.

John, Sarah and T800 try to escape, but they are captured by government agents. John tells them about terminators and Skynet and T800 rips his face off to show his metal head as a prove. Then he puts his face back down, which immediately heals, since he is an advanced prototype, which can heal his skin almost immediately.

Skynet meanwhile launches nukes at Los Angeles and San-Francisco and disguises himself as lead scientist of the project, to demand its relocation into safe computer center under the mountain. However, later it reveals its true nature to President of US and demands safe relocation or it will launch full scale nuclear attack on the rest of the world.

T-1G once again successfully evaded with the help of hovercrafts. John with the help of government infiltrates compound under mountain, where Skynet resides. T800 sacrifices himself to stop bomb-blast doors from closing, but John revives it, by screaming at it a lot, because, he, Sarah and some soldiers are under attack of T1 (which look like primitive endoskeletons and not like tanks with gatling guns). T800 saves them (and says: I am back).

John uses diggers to get into Skynet core, through the cable tunnels, however, T-1G takes Sarah hostage. John kills Skynet and T-1G kills Sarah. Skynet launches attack on the world, but all missiles are disabled. John uses antigravity engines of the hovercraft (which looks like Aerial Hunter Killer) to partially destroy T-1G structure, which mutates into giant bloated monster. T800 dies as he is trying to stop her and John finally blasts what remained from T-1G with rocket engine.

Overall, this script starts as a decent attempt at Terminator movie and ends up as some C-movie romp. T-1G earns the achievement of being the most broken Terminator unit ever - she can become invisible, invincible, can read thoughts and even bathing in liquid metal does nothing to her.

T800 can regenerate his skin almost immediately and when dying he says that he has a favorite color, which is green, because "it is a color of life".

All in all, there are some good ideas, but most action scenes feel very limited (aside from the first one) and the story is nothing special.

There are only few moments which got into the movie: TX connects to Internet via modem, T800 says "I am back" after being revived and T800 uses gatling gun of one of T1s to kill other T1.

[Leo656]

Jesus, I have never seen a single thing to change my mind that this series was best left as two movies and a handful of comic books.

Pretty sure I'm right and pretty sure that "opinion" ain't ever gonna change.

I do have one friend who insists that even T2 is blasphemy and shouldn't exist, but that's a little bit too "hardcore" for even me.

[IMJ]

Jesus, I have never seen a single thing to change my mind that this series was best left as two movies and a handful of comic books.

Pretty sure I'm right and pretty sure that "opinion" ain't ever gonna change.

I do have one friend who insists that even T2 is blasphemy and shouldn't exist, but that's a little bit too "hardcore" for even me.

I think the thing is that T2 could've been an easy misstep - Arnold's excuse to play another "good guy" while his career was at it's peak could've easily churned out an "actor-service" flick.

But the thing was that T2 was a game changer as far as visual effects went and it had it's finger on the pulse of a young generation with John Connor's character.

I remember it, man. It wasn't like today where everything looks great through CGi. Back then, relatively simple things like the airplane explosion in Die Hard 2 was an epic spectacle. So now you have Terminator 2 with all of the explosions, but also a liquid-metal juggernaut that basically couldn't be killed and created during a cultural renaissance in visual effects. People were droppin' jaws in the theater.

[Leo656]

Strong disagreement in how "everything looks great in CGI nowadays." Nothing pulls me out of a movie faster or makes me roll my eyes more, especially how often it's (over) used in places where it's not necessary. "The Dark Knight" technically holds my heart for "best" use of CGI in a semi-modern film because I frankly had no idea they'd used any until I saw the making-of, and its use was incredibly sparse. If you don't notice it, it's "good" CGI. Most CGI is Not Good.

Strong agreement, however, in how revolutionary T2 was in its time, and is honestly one of the very few CGI-heavy films I enjoy. It was absolutely necessary to bring to life the story they were telling but it looked "real" in the context of the film.

If anything, we've slid a few miles backwards since then. "Modern" CGI looks unbearably fake and off-putting because the filmmakers have no restraint.

I think what helped T2 resonate so strongly was the story, though. Obviously it's a visual triumph in every way, but it was a great story. I actually hadn't seen the first Terminator movie yet - you'd be shocked at how many people actually saw T2 first, it's more than you might think - but T2 did a great job in bringing everything up to speed and then moving things forward instead of rehashing what was already done. In my opinion, it improved on the original in every single way possible. "The Terminator", to me, is a good movie, but T2 is a great one.

I feel obligated to say "in my opinion" because I've recently encountered some people, including my one aforementioned friend, who prefer the first film, but... eh, that's a bad opinion, I'm sorry. :lol: There's really nothing about the first one that elevates it over the sequel, aside from in fact being The First One. The second one does everything better and does it with gusto.

My one friend's arguments against T2 are that the original was a horror movie and the sequel "betrays" that by being more action-centric - although I still find some scenes to be faithful to the horror tone and style without it being a "horror movie" - and that the story was "finished" and that making a sequel "ruined" that. I kinda get what he means, and at the end of the day people can like whatever they want, but... well, it's a bad opinion and I don't agree with it.

[AquaParade]

I'm so over the use of computer animation in modern blockbusters. Not only do the practical effects look better but I appreciate the creative muscles they force filmmakers to exercise, as well as the restraint and focus.

I appreciate it at times, but it feels like a crutch more often than not these days. Speaking mainly of comic book films and the third act firework display.

[Leo656]

On this we agree.

I just can't help but have a greater admiration on people who physically craft with their hands (and I don't mean with a keyboard or light pen). Even something like the skeleton warriors in "Jason and the Argonauts" still impresses me FAR more than any of the spectacle in say, "Jurassic World" for example. Building sets, creating costumes, hell even using puppets... THAT stuff gets me way more hard than anything nowadays.

CGI simply doesn't feel like "art" or "craftsmanship", to me, no matter how textured or well-done it is. And I don't mean to disrespect those who do that work, and I'm aware that it is still work, it's just... well, it feels like "Movie Making Via Game Genie", to me. Almost like "cheating".

I'm also a huge mark for those "Making Of" shows that used to be all over HBO or whatever when a hot movie came out, and CGI has ruined that completely. I used to love seeing how creative the filmmakers had to be do build this set, or that costume, all the work and blood, sweat and tears that went into it. Now it's like, "We drew some lines on a tablet and clicked a few buttons, and now here's a dinosaur," or whatever. It's just... not the same thing at all. Feels hollow. Soulless.

((Shrug))
--------------

Although if I'm ever more forgiving of it, it's actually the aforementioned "Third Act Fireworks Display" of comic book movies, because... well... that's the entire point of those movies to begin with and the one place it actually makes sense to do that kinda sh*t. :lol:

Like a few people tried telling me that Wonder Woman would have been a better film if she didn't fight Ares at the end, and the movie just limped to a resolution with Diana simply having learned a moral lesson about making assumptions. :lol: Yeah, because people spent $20 for a ticket to see a $200-million movie that ends not with a climax, but with a "Here's What I Learned Today" PSA. :lol: Sometimes you SHOULD have the video game fight. I think it's appropriate in comic book films, but that the other 60-90 minutes of most of these films STILL overdo it in places where they shouldn't, all to justify their gigantic VFX budgets. If anything, it's that which makes the third act video game fight seem less special in some of these movies, the fact that the rest of the movie is ALSO over-stuffed with CGI to the point where it doesn't feel "big" anymore during the "BIG" moments where it should have been saved for in the first place.

[IMJ]

Strong disagreement in how "everything looks great in CGI nowadays." Nothing pulls me out of a movie faster or makes me roll my eyes more, especially how often it's (over) used in places where it's not necessary. "The Dark Knight" technically holds my heart for "best" use of CGI in a semi-modern film because I frankly had no idea they'd used any until I saw the making-of, and its use was incredibly sparse. If you don't notice it, it's "good" CGI. Most CGI is Not Good.

Strong agreement, however, in how revolutionary T2 was in its time, and is honestly one of the very few CGI-heavy films I enjoy. It was absolutely necessary to bring to life the story they were telling but it looked "real" in the context of the film.

If anything, we've slid a few miles backwards since then. "Modern" CGI looks unbearably fake and off-putting because the filmmakers have no restraint.

I think what helped T2 resonate so strongly was the story, though. Obviously it's a visual triumph in every way, but it was a great story. I actually hadn't seen the first Terminator movie yet - you'd be shocked at how many people actually saw T2 first, it's more than you might think - but T2 did a great job in bringing everything up to speed and then moving things forward instead of rehashing what was already done. In my opinion, it improved on the original in every single way possible. "The Terminator", to me, is a good movie, but T2 is a great one.

I feel obligated to say "in my opinion" because I've recently encountered some people, including my one aforementioned friend, who prefer the first film, but... eh, that's a bad opinion, I'm sorry. :lol: There's really nothing about the first one that elevates it over the sequel, aside from in fact being The First One. The second one does everything better and does it with gusto.

My one friend's arguments against T2 are that the original was a horror movie and the sequel "betrays" that by being more action-centric - although I still find some scenes to be faithful to the horror tone and style without it being a "horror movie" - and that the story was "finished" and that making a sequel "ruined" that. I kinda get what he means, and at the end of the day people can like whatever they want, but... well, it's a bad opinion and I don't agree with it.

My comments above were written quickly..... Yes, there are huge variations in the quality of CGi. What I was really going for wasn't that "everything" looks great and more like "anything can be done" now. And so the real point was that T2 not only looked great, but pushed the limits and that helped the film in an era where an exploding plane was a big deal.

[Leo656]

Well, I kind of inferred that, the rest was just me rambling on as I do. :lol:

[IMJ]

Well, I kind of inferred that, the rest was just me rambling on as I do. :lol:

:lol: Dude I'm just up trying to unwind. I was all over God's green Earth today. Exhausted. Like... too tired even to unwind :P

[Leo656]

I slept all day because I was up all night playing old Sonic games.

Together we might actually form one singular well-balanced individual. In theory.

[IMJ]

I slept all day because I was up all night playing old Sonic games.

Together we might actually form one singular well-balanced individual. In theory.

:lol::lol::D8)

[Andrew NDB]

Hamilton knew killing Connor would piss people off.

https://screenrant.com/terminator-dark-fate-john-connor-death-fan-reaction/

[Leo656]

Yeah, I read that, and the stuff with her basically saying she hopes she never gets asked to do another one. Fun.

[Wildcat]

So I still have not seen this yet but I did watch the opening on YouTube since I had it spoiled anyway.

I think the scene is both a bit too easy but realistic. Like I said before it does seem convenient that the hero of the story can be replaced but on the other hand it’s not that ridiculous in this series.

A single terminator showing up without warning and killing the target makes sense and something it should be able to do. The original terminator was able to kill other Sarah Connors. It just picked the wrong ones first...for the sake of the story.

Plus a what-if story about a terminator actually accomplishing this single task is an interesting scenario. Can’t comment on the rest because I haven’t seen it.

[CyberCubed]

At this point every Terminator sequel is in a what if alternate timeline so it doesn’t really matter. In 2025 when we get yet another Terminator movie they will probably have John Conner alive again in reaction to backlash over him dying and so forth. Just too bad I think this will be Arnold’s final Terminator movie.

[D Piddy 1982]

Strong disagreement in how "everything looks great in CGI nowadays." Nothing pulls me out of a movie faster or makes me roll my eyes more, especially how often it's (over) used in places where it's not necessary. "The Dark Knight" technically holds my heart for "best" use of CGI in a semi-modern film because I frankly had no idea they'd used any until I saw the making-of, and its use was incredibly sparse. If you don't notice it, it's "good" CGI. Most CGI is Not Good.

Strong agreement, however, in how revolutionary T2 was in its time, and is honestly one of the very few CGI-heavy films I enjoy. It was absolutely necessary to bring to life the story they were telling but it looked "real" in the context of the film.

If anything, we've slid a few miles backwards since then. "Modern" CGI looks unbearably fake and off-putting because the filmmakers have no restraint.

Just browsing and I agree with you on this 10 fold. I've been banging on for years about how CGI has actually gotten worse (generally) and I think that's due to both laziness and budget.

Although Thanos in Infinity War however does look pretty realistic!

[Leo656]

Yeah, brother.

At this point every Terminator sequel is in a what if alternate timeline so it doesn’t really matter.

Exactly. "It doesn't matter." No stakes, no reason to get invested. Nothing matters. "I'm sad because ______ died! Oh, wait, nevermind, the next movie will ignore it. I'm happy because the Good Guys won! Oh, wait, next movie they're going to ignore that, too." :roll:

If "nothing matters" then there's no point in taking the journey in the first place. I'm not one of those "movies are just background noise" people, I want to suspend disbelief and be invested. And I'm pretty sure that's ultimately what the filmmakers want, too, or they wouldn't spend so much goddamn money on them. But it all goes to sh*t when "nothing matters".

Reboots and retcons should be last resort nonsense ONLY. Learn how to tell a coherent story or get the hell out of the business.

[Sumac]

It can matter if they manage to pull off a good story, but at this point this franchise just run out of trust. So even if they can do this, most people won't care.

[Leo656]

Like, how many Terminator movies in a row can fail, or at least underwhelm, before it's just accepted fact that they ran out of story, and people stopped caring, in 1992?

T3, whenever I catch it, isn't as bad as people say it is but it's no prize either, and if it weren't for the ending, which was incredibly ballsy, it wouldn't be remembered fondly at all, especially with the bad "comedy" sprinkled throughout. It would just be another forgotten sequel without the ending, which legit shocked people in theaters who assumed they were sitting down for another retread, so I give them credit for that but the rest of the movie is "meh". "Salvation", again, whenever I catch it, it's better than I remembered, but it's so forgettable. "Genysis" put 100% of their effort into the visual homages to the first two films, and while they did a great job with that, absolutely everything else is awful. And I haven't seen the new one yet, but I've read enough about it to know that the best stuff is all in the trailers and that the story is nonsense.

This franchise is one Really Good movie, followed by one GREAT movie, followed by FOUR "Oh, wait, I think I DID see that... maybe..." movies. Pull the plug, it's pointless. Things are supposed to BUILD over time, not erode.

Film schools are one day going to use this franchise as a template on what NOT to do, if they already aren't. But to be fair, after T2 there was nowhere to go but down, anyway. Can't be mad at them for trying, but MOST of the decisions they made over the last 20 years were obviously bad from a mile away, so they've got no one but themselves to blame.

[Egon1982]

Who agrees this franchise is dead and should remain dead as it's been nothing but diminishing returns after T2 and that T2 was the true end of the story?

[frank_one]

It's dead and in the coffin. Until someone decides it's not.

[Wildcat]

I really don't like bumping topics especially this far back but I finally saw this and since it was a big discussion I wanted to give my review I guess.

I thought it was very entertaining but like I've said before I've enjoyed all them. They could make 100 and I'd probably enjoy them. I just don't get tired of the whole "unbeatable robot thing".

As for the movie itself I think it's as good as any of the others. The only real problem of course is it's basically the same as T2 and the first T3.

Most of us agree it needs to get on with the war but aside from that, just in the context of this its weird that Miller/Cameron were against the other sequels but pretty much copied everything they did.

I know people were upset about John being killed off but I said before it DOES make sense a Terminator could easily complete the mission. The only reason it does not is for the sake of a movie but that's off topic.

I absolutely loved the T800/Carl. He was hilarious. Don't keep your phone in a bag of chips and explaining how to decorate a room. His delivery was great :lol:

The other thing though is they actually used the idea I posted awhile back...about a terminator killing the hero but then grows to appreciate humans when it moves on. :o Same exact idea I posted somewhere here.

I don't care what anyone says I loved everything they did with the T800. This was the only really creative thing they did with the movie.

Linda Hamilton was good but at the same time felt like Sarah was too sarcastic. Her let me show you how it's done demeanor. I know it fits considering what the character has been through but it was kind of poured on.

A better connection would have been if Dani was a distant relative in the same bloodline or something. So even though Skynet changed Legion was still linked to the Connors in some weird way. Like it was their fate too.

[Andrew NDB]

I really don't like bumping topics especially this far back but I finally saw this and since it was a big discussion I wanted to give my review I guess.

I see no need to create a new T6 thread. Especially... given the movie. You did good.

I thought it was very entertaining but like I've said before I've enjoyed all them. They could make 100 and I'd probably enjoy them. I just don't get tired of the whole "unbeatable robot thing".

I do. It worked in T1 and against the T-800. As in, we know "they have a chance." After that, they've been obsessed with god-like robots that there's no way in hell people can defend against.

As for the movie itself I think it's as good as any of the others. The only real problem of course is it's basically the same as T2 and the first T3.

Not as good as the others. At best, it's below T3 in what it tried to do.

Most of us agree it needs to get on with the war but aside from that, just in the context of this its weird that Miller/Cameron were against the other sequels but pretty much copied everything they did.

Yes. It was a greatest hits from all of them while also... oddly, nullifying them. Making all of them not matter. Even the two they were trying to idolize.

I know people were upset about John being killed off but I said before it DOES make sense a Terminator could easily complete the mission. The only reason it does not is for the sake of a movie but that's off topic.

Sure. It just doesn't make for a good Terminator series movie watching experience.

The other thing though is they actually used the idea I posted awhile back...about a terminator killing the hero

Which they already did back in T3. With the T-850 killing John in the future. Recycled garbage.

So even though Skynet changed Legion was still linked to the Connors in some weird way. Like it was their fate too.

We'll never know. They went too woke and got too broke.

And it's such a weird choice. Like, "What if... we completely make everything that happened in not only the first two films that everyone loves, but all 5 completely not matter? And just make like this mystery box new future judgement day thing where we have no idea about anything?" Like, who would care about such a thing? Were they banking on non-Terminator fans tuning in or something, yet beg Linda Hamilton to come back? Weird. So weird, on all fronts.

[Wildcat]

I do. It worked in T1 and against the T-800 in T2. As in, we know "they have a chance." After that, they've been obsessed with god-like robots that there's no way in hell people can defend against.
Well ya but I still get excited when a terminator reveals itself, seemingly nothing can stop it and the guardian is only one that can really challenge it. I’m just a sucker for it I guess. :D

Which they already did back in T3. With the T-850 killing John in the future. Recycled garbage.I was talking about a terminator learning to appreciate humans after moving on. Even becoming a family figure...now I want more T800 daily conversation though haha.

We'll never know. They went too woke and got too broke.

And it's such a weird choice. Like, "What if... we completely make everything that happened in not only the first two films that everyone loves, but all 5 completely not matter? And just make like this mystery box new future judgement day thing where we have no idea about anything?" Like, who would care about such a thing? Were they banking on non-Terminator fans tuning in or something, yet beg Linda Hamilton to come back? Weird. So weird, on all fronts.I don’t wanna get into the woke thing.

If they did plan on Dani being somehow connected to John they should have implied a little just to let audiences know it was not a random replacement. That everything was still linked in some grand way. It included everyone’s fate.

If they get to do a direct follow up to this that’s what I’d like to see.

[newfan]

Slower getting to this one, just caught it last week. I'm going to assume we don't need spoilers this long after a movie is out?

I felt the same as you Andrew with the godlike unbeatable robots, I mean okay they tried a new look and a new ability to split but then I also asked myself if that was necessary, always old robot arnie (also enhanced human in this case) facing an even better robot.

I didn't like that John was killed off, I get that they changed the future which opened the door for a change and John dying was part of Sarah's story but no, when I think of T2 I just think..... after that win he was killed shortly after by an older robot that had been there all that time too.

I found myself feeling the two protectors were having kinda co*k fight, sorry for the description, that was just what came to mind when watching but I suppose they would clash a little before ultimately getting along.

Not sure what I think of Arnie's robot just deciding to settle down with a wife and raise a kid after it had no mission.

Feeling like I am being a bit harsh, if this was the first terminator movie I had seen then I wouldn't have some of the things bugging me obviously, it wasn't boring anyway.

[Sumac]

I've probably put my opinion on T6 here before, but just in case my 2 cents again: TDF was garbage.

It had recycled everything possible and impossible from the whole franchise, adding very little new and fun and engaging ideas of its own.

It's not even the case of it being "woke": it was a tiny drop of vomit into diarrhea pile, so to speak.
It was basically everything for me, which made me dislike it: story, special effects (in some moments), over the top action scenes, which belong to the Fast & Furious and not a Terminator movie, dumb dialogues and miscast of the main heroine, Dani.

It took all potentially interesting and fun ideas from the past movies, copied them and turned them to ****. It is a rare skill, to have so many good stuff to choose from and turn everything you chose into pile of trash, but somehow Miller and Cam managed to do that.

It is the only awe-worthy thing about this movie.

[Leo656]

Just another experiment in misandrist social conditioning with ultimately no inherent value whatsoever.

It's a two-movie franchise. That's it, that's all.

[Andrew NDB]

Well ya but I still get excited when a terminator reveals itself, seemingly nothing can stop it and the guardian is only one that can really challenge it. I’m just a sucker for it I guess. :D

It was old in T3, and felt only fresh in T2 because the dynamic was flipped (now the robot is the protector).

I was talking about a terminator learning to appreciate humans after moving on. Even becoming a family figure...now I want more T800 daily conversation though haha.

They pretty much already did that in T5 with "Pops." He fulfilled his mission then raised Sarah Connor for years. Later on, he took a construction job for years while waiting for Sarah and Kyle to return.

If they get to do a direct follow up to this

They won't.

It's not even the case of it being "woke": it was a tiny drop of vomit into diarrhea pile, so to speak.

Oh, it was woke alright. Filled with angry feminism designed to deconstruct everything these enlightened people decided was "problematic" with the franchise (white male savior, not enough strong womyn, etc.) while at the same time going after modern day stuff, like literally having Border Patrol agents getting ripped apart and blown away on-screen with illegal immigrants in cages in the background.

[Wildcat]

They pretty much already did that in T5 with "Pops." He fulfilled his mission then raised Sarah Connor for years. Later on, he took a construction job for years while waiting for Sarah and Kyle to return.Wait, Pops was always good though. He saved her as a kid in the opening right?. Here the Terminator that killed John learned compassion and changed alliance.

[Andrew NDB]

Wait, Pops was always good though. He saved her as a kid in the opening right?. Here the Terminator that killed John learned compassion and changed alliance.

Well, yeah. But the point is, "what does a Terminator do after they fulfill their mission?" In the case of T5, that mission was to save Sarah Connor at a specific point in time, possibly even her parents. Parents died so he decided to become her dad. T6, same thing. Only difference is he was sent to kill John Connor, not protect anybody. When that mission was over... same thing.

[Wildcat]

Well, yeah. But the point is, "what does a Terminator do after they fulfill their mission?" In the case of T5, that mission was to save Sarah Connor at a specific point in time, possibly even her parents. Parents died so he decided to become her dad. T6, same thing. Only difference is he was sent to kill John Connor, not protect anybody. When that mission was over... same thing.No the point is an evil terminator learned to like humans on its own. That was the idea I had too. Pops was programmed to protect Sarah.

[Andrew NDB]

Pops was programmed to protect Sarah.

Protect her, yeah. But I doubt the idea was that he was programmed to be her dad. Or work a construction job.

[Wildcat]

Protect her, yeah. But I doubt the idea was that he was programmed to be her dad. Or work a construction job.Well she might have taught him to get a job in order to blend into society. The point of interest is that an evil terminator turned good on its own. It regretted killing. Would have been cool to see some of Carl’s backstory instead of just quick explanations.

Anyway I was thinking maybe they could have really changed up the Rev9. I know there’s differences but it’s still very much a Terminator by design.

Since Skynet never happened it would have been cool to have the robot really look like it came from a different timeline. Not just a black skeleton.

It would have differentiated Legion and allowed for a new concept to be introduced. Whatever that might have been. I know it’s meant to match aesthetically but they had an opportunity make Legion something more than Alternate Skynet.

[Sumac]

Protect her, yeah. But I doubt the idea was that he was programmed to be her dad. Or work a construction job.
I agree with Wildcat here: the circumstances are different.

Pops mission was to protect Sarah and in the process he had become more human. After sending Sarah and Kyle to the future, his mission was not effectively over, since he still needed to protect Sarah, after her return. Working on the job is just part of "infiltration" to better blend with humans. This is the same like in first movie, where T800 had a personal apartment, even though technically he could just hide in the sewers or wherever.

Carl learned "to be human" after his primary mission was over, which is rather different case from Pops.

But I agree, that conceptually those two ideas are the same and both derived from T2. So both are recycled, but TG was there first with terminator becoming almost human-like.

Anyway I was thinking maybe they could have really changed up the Rev9. I know there’s differences but it’s still very much a Terminator by design.

Since Skynet never happened it would have been cool to have the robot really look like it came from a different timeline. Not just a black skeleton.

It would have differentiated Legion and allowed for a new concept to be introduced. Whatever that might have been. I know it’s meant to match aesthetically but they had an opportunity make Legion something more than Alternate Skynet.
The whole thing with Legion was a wasted opportunity.

They basically swapped one AI for another and made just another T800-based cyborg. Yeah, REV9 has some unique stuff, like having processor in his chest, ability to separate itself into liquid unit and endoskeleton unit (taken from one of the books, where liquid terminator TXA could separate itself into multiple units) and ability to control machines by "merging" with them, as opposed to injecting nanites a-la TX, but it's still a T800 derived cyborg.
Also its endoskeleton looks goofy.

REV8 was even more weird, what with canine legs and tentacles, but at least it was something "newer", I guess.

There are so many cool concepts they could use from comic books, like T-Infinity, which can travel through time on his own and can teleport. And he has a cool design to boot (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/terminator/images/0/00/Trevolution-tinfinity-issue01-13-1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20191212084857). Though maybe he looks a bit more like a transformer. Alternate, less buff design. (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/terminator/images/f/f8/T2_Infinity_-5_002.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120627123514)

There are also T900s, terminator-dogs, terminator-kids, giant spider from liquid metal.

[sdp]

I think when a new Terminator movie is eventualy made many years in the future it'll actually try to bring Terminator 3-6 back into the timeline by explaining how they're all canon because of time travel shenanigans and different outcomes.

[Voltron]

I think when a new Terminator movie is eventualy made many years in the future it'll actually try to bring Terminator 3-6 back into the timeline by explaining how they're all canon because of time travel shenanigans and different outcomes.

I can't WAIT not to watch that.

[Andrew NDB]

I think when a new Terminator movie is eventualy made many years in the future it'll actually try to bring Terminator 3-6 back into the timeline by explaining how they're all canon because of time travel shenanigans and different outcomes.

That's what they did with T5 and SkyNET there -- that it's been observing all the timelines and has become self-aware.

[Leo656]

If it were that self-aware, it would also realize that it's a mathematical impossibility to "win" in every single timeline, and that there will always be timelines in which the machines win and others in which humanity perseveres. Thus, being an AI and therefore operating on logic and not human emotions like "revenge", it wouldn't feel any NEED to hop around between timelines trying to "ensure total victory". It would realize how nonsensical that is.

The whole thing is a stupid, bloated, overwritten mess.

[Andrew NDB]

After T4, they should have just doubled down on the Future War. Do two good Future War movies, then call it quits. No time travel, no timeline dickery, no protector, no Linda Hamilton, just the war we were promised but have barely even seen.

[Leo656]

After T4, they should have just doubled down on the Future War. Do two good Future War movies, then call it quits. No time travel, no timeline dickery, no protector, no Linda Hamilton, just the war we were promised but have barely even seen.

Absolutely.

It was NEVER about "Back to the Future, but with Killer Robots".

They retroactively MADE it that, and it killed the franchise.

[Andrew NDB]

The turning point was T4. T4 had the right idea... they just set it up for failure and sure enough. They put McG on it, rushed it out with a poo script, and made it be PG-13.

After T4 kind of scared them away from going forward, T5 and T6 were both "hey! Remember T1 and T2!"

[Wildcat]

The whole thing with Legion was a wasted opportunity.

They basically swapped one AI for another and made just another T800-based cyborg. Yeah, REV9 has some unique stuff, like having processor in his chest, ability to separate itself into liquid unit and endoskeleton unit (taken from one of the books, where liquid terminator TXA could separate itself into multiple units) and ability to control machines by "merging" with them, as opposed to injecting nanites a-la TX, but it's still a T800 derived cyborg.
Also its endoskeleton looks goofy.

REV8 was even more weird, what with canine legs and tentacles, but at least it was something "newer", I guess.

There are so many cool concepts they could use from comic books, like T-Infinity, which can travel through time on his own and can teleport. And he has a cool design to boot (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/terminator/images/0/00/Trevolution-tinfinity-issue01-13-1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20191212084857). Though maybe he looks a bit more like a transformer. Alternate, less buff design. (https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/terminator/images/f/f8/T2_Infinity_-5_002.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120627123514)

There are also T900s, terminator-dogs, terminator-kids, giant spider from liquid metal.Ya I brought up T Infinity before.

I want Cameron or Miller to explain what they thought they were doing that was so different. Their whole thing leading up was...”we’re doing Terminator the right way”. I’m just curious what the thought process was for the story.

Again the future war should have always come next. I’d even say T2 was unnecessary when the first had the built-in sequel of the war. Still just in terms of this movie their vision does not really come through.

Now that I think of it Skynet might have been ensuring its existence by sending back Carl and the other terminators Sarah mentions. The name change wouldn’t matter to itself. Genisys had multiple terminators sent back too so not a new idea but Legion fits better now.

Maybe Sarah did not properly dispose of one or one went under Carl’s radar. Could have been one that arrived at the same time he did but stayed hidden.

[Leo656]

"Salvation" isn't even THAT bad.

I feel like a lot of people stayed away because Arnold wasn't in it. People have a bad habit of doing dumb sh*t like that.

[DarkFell]

^ Terminator: Salvation was it's own can of worms but it was actually better than the last two movies that came afterwards, and Arnold was in both of them.

Judgment Day should have been the last movie, but 'Uncle Bob' needed a paycheck.

[Sumac]

"Salvation" isn't even THAT bad.

I feel like a lot of people stayed away because Arnold wasn't in it. People have a bad habit of doing dumb sh*t like that.
For me it was bad, because, its story was an illogical garbage (thanks Christian Beil!), there were barely any terminators and final duel between John and T-Rip was dumb as ****.

[Leo656]

They definitely had the right idea but the script sure was choppy.

Still, I'll generally lean towards "good ideas, but flawed execution" over "just plain bad ideas". To me, "Genesysises" and "Dark Fate" were just plain bad ideas that very little could save.

But the Future War movie idea that "Salvation" pursued... COULD have been good. Too many conflicting ideas during the production mucked it up, but the general direction was absolutely the right way to go.

Bale was so very obviously coked out of his mind for that one, though, that it's no surprise he was a problem. I was a fan of his casting and think he did an "okay" job, but I'm not surprised that he caused issues.

[Sumac]

They definitely had the right idea but the script sure was choppy.

Still, I'll generally lean towards "good ideas, but flawed execution" over "just plain bad ideas". To me, "Genesysises" and "Dark Fate" were just plain bad ideas that very little could save.

But the Future War movie idea that "Salvation" pursued... COULD have been good. Too many conflicting ideas during the production mucked it up, but the general direction was absolutely the right way to go.

Bale was so very obviously coked out of his mind for that one, though, that it's no surprise he was a problem. I was a fan of his casting and think he did an "okay" job, but I'm not surprised that he caused issues.
It's not that he was coked, it's that he demanded to rewrite the whole script to give himself more screen time, which ****ed the movie.

[Leo656]

I think one can be a symptom of the other quite easily. :trazz:

[Andrew NDB]

It kind of should have been about John Connor. But the way it is, they don't really do him justice.

There really wasn't any point to the story in T4 at all. Think about it. What was actually accomplished? All we really learned was how John got his scar.

[oldmanwinters]

The turning point was T4. T4 had the right idea... they just set it up for failure and sure enough. They put McG on it, rushed it out with a poo script, and made it be PG-13.

After T4 kind of scared them away from going forward, T5 and T6 were both "hey! Remember T1 and T2!"

I agree T4 was the precise moment when the franchise fell off the rails. Everything since then has been desperate and failed attempts to start a new franchise by soft-rebooting the first two films. That ship has sailed.

I got some enjoyment out of Sarah Conner Chronicles, though I don't know that the payoff was all that satisfying.

[Wildcat]

Behind the scenes problems aside I consider Salvation the best sequel (so far) for actually taking place during the war with an assortment of other machines and having the heroes actually take on Skynet’s base...at least one of them.

[Andrew NDB]

Behind the scenes problems aside I consider Salvation the best sequel (so far) for actually taking place during the war with an assortment of other machines and having the heroes actually take on Skynet’s base...at least one of them.

I applaud them for post-T3 sticking to their guns and saying, "OK, Future War now!" But not the way they went about it. Maybe a T5 in the same line could have remedied things, I don't know (but not the one McG was pushing! he wanted an army of Terminators arriving in modern day from time travel).

In my mind, T4 should have just picked up 10-15 years from T3. Show John becoming that leader. Show him earn it. But make it Saving Private Ryan/Apocalypse Now style. With machines instead of Viet Cong. Varied machines. Ease us into the craziness with plastic Terminators and dogs and all that. Then give it a big finale. And two more movies with more of that, upping the ante, maybe finishing with showing where SkyNET got the skins for the Arnold one, the Robert Patrick one, and the Kristanna Loken one. Last scene of T6 is a deaged Biehn going back in time. Done. Perfect symmetry. End it right there.

[Leo656]

I mean, probably not in the same detail but I pretty much felt that was vaguely the direction they were gonna go with things. Okay, "Salvation" underwhelmed. So? "They'll just do better next time." Simple.

The absolute last thing I expected - or wanted - was for them to just start playing the "Last movie didn't happen" card, and then repeatedly doubling down on it.

Stories are supposed to move forward, not constantly loop back on themselves. Now what WAS at one time a straightforward action/adventure story told across several films, is a tangled mess of incoherent continuity and bisecting conflicting parallel timelines which you'd need a graph or a flow chart to explain to anyone. With the cherry on top being that almost half of the movies in the series simply "didn't happen" now, which is about the laziest thing you can do from a writing standpoint, even when it's ultimately for the best. It just feels like cheating to say, "Yeah, that stuff we had you believe last time just plain doesn't count." I never really LOVE it, regardless of medium or story. Sometimes, you have to, but it's inarguably a very lazy thing to do.

And one could argue that none of it was necessary with Terminator. "Salvation" may not have been perfect or even incredibly good, but it also wasn't terrible. Worst thing about it is that it could be called a "placeholder" movie in which nothing too incredibly significant ultimately happened. It didn't screw anything up SO badly that a fifth movie couldn't have continued the same story and moved things forward in that timeline.

As soon as they threw everything out after that one, instead of trying to stay the course and just do a little better next time out, I knew the series was f*cked. It showed that they had no direction past "Remind people of the GOOD Terminator movies, over and over again", and no commitment to continuing the stories they set out to tell. "Here's a story. Oh, you don't like it? Okay, REBOOT, nevermind, it didn't happen! How about this? You like this? No? Okay... REBOOT!"

That should never, EVER be standard operating procedure. Staying the course after "Salvation" and just trying to make the fifth movie better was absolutely, 100% what should have happened. None of this double-back reboot/retcon/multiverse timeline stuff.

Nothing about the series was broken until they went and f*cking broke it.

[Andrew NDB]

Basically, things died when they started treating Terminator like product and not a robust thing that connected with generations. Kind of of like TMNT.

Honestly, we're lucky we even got as good of a T3 as we did. I know that Arnold himself injected some monies into it to make it better. After that, all bets were off.

Dark Fate was like the worst choice ever. Like, "Last movie, there's a multiverse and it all matters except it didn't matter because T1 and T2 were overridden... so now we're going to make absolutely all Terminator movies not matter, not even SkyNET or John Connor. Plus maybe we can sneak some attacks on the White House's treatment of illegal immigrants? Who's with me???"

Nobody, apparently. Nice way to tank an already ailing franchise.

Although jeeze. How to save Terminator after not T4 but T5. Because this is an important distinction. I guess after "Genisys" I would have maintained the loosey goosey "SkyNET knows all timelines" thing but thrust into the ultimate Future War movie. Like, we think we're watching the end of it in T6 as always prophecized. But SkyNET seems oddly ahead of the curve, or maybe we see tech the Terminators shouldn't have yet in 2029. But John Connor and TechCOM find some way to persevere.

The hope angle? OK. When Reese goes back to 1984 this time, maybe Connor whispers something new in his ear that may break the chain. Maybe. Something like this was what I was rooting for. The actual "Genisys" we got shot that dead, making my hopes for T6 pretty grim.

[Sumac]

And two more movies with more of that, upping the ante, maybe finishing with showing where SkyNET got the skins for the Arnold one, the Robert Patrick one, and the Kristanna Loken one. Last scene of T6 is a deaged Biehn going back in time. Done. Perfect symmetry. End it right there.
Cut scene from T3 explained how T800 got its appearance.
And original script for T4 had moment where that female doctor from the beginning of the movie, shows Marcus T1000 and TX in early stages of development.
Also, early script had that Skynet wasn't trying to kill humanity, but turn people into hybrids, like Marcus.

There is a comic book sequel which plays with this idea and ends up with truce between humanity and Skynet. And John Connor becoming a terminator with a family. :lol:
Its actually pretty decent.

And I agree: erasing past works from the timeline and going for a dumb reboot is not a way to go.

At least T5 gave somewhat hopeful ending.

[Andrew NDB]

"Dark Fate" director Tim Miller thinks Dark Fate was great and that nobody saw his movie because they were tired of Terminator, not because he did anything wrong:

https://comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/terminator/deadpool-director-tim-miller-reflects-on-terminator-dark-fates-failings-and-says-i-was-wrong-a194939?fbclid=IwAR3OjgDEvs-IZJhIQFuPiWlaxmiPVdIThCog-hTXIOTTlEViW_JqcaD8v_0#gs.afb0.6tzbk9

[Leo656]

I think franchise fatigue was something of a factor, sure. Probably not the biggest reason though.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Maybe to tease the sequel. :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIgfiSzCy1o

[Sumac]

"Dark Fate" director Tim Miller thinks Dark Fate was great and that nobody saw his movie because they were tired of Terminator, not because he did anything wrong:
Guy is a dumb**** retard, who should make dog food commercials for the rest of his life, than.

[neatoman]

Looking on Wikipedia, the only piece of Terminator media planned for the future is an animated series for Netflix. For now, there are seemingly no plans for any theatrical or live-action releases, the franchise is pretty much dead when it comes to it's typical form. There are obviously going to be comics, but what franchise isn't capable of getting comics printed.

That said, I don't believe Dark Fate will actually be the last Terminator movie. Terminator 7 will probably pretend Dark Fate didn't happen along with all the other sequels after 2, the same way every other sequel after 2 pretended there weren't any other sequels after 2. It probably won't be until 2025-2026 or later but someone will be foolish enough to make another one.
Of course, Arnold will be about 80 when another one comes out, meaning we'll probably just see digital recreations like in Salvation eventually.

[TigerClaw]

Looking on Wikipedia, the only piece of Terminator media planned for the future is an animated series for Netflix. For now, there are seemingly no plans for any theatrical or live-action releases, the franchise is pretty much dead when it comes to it's typical form. There are obviously going to be comics, but what franchise isn't capable of getting comics printed.

That said, I don't believe Dark Fate will actually be the last Terminator movie. Terminator 7 will probably pretend Dark Fate didn't happen along with all the other sequels after 2, the same way every other sequel after 2 pretended there weren't any other sequels after 2. It probably won't be until 2025-2026 or later but someone will be foolish enough to make another one.
Of course, Arnold will be about 80 when another one comes out, meaning we'll probably just see digital recreations like in Salvation eventually.
There is also a new Terminator game in the works.

[neatoman]

There is also a new Terminator game in the works.

Yeah but that kind of falls into the same category as the comics. Video games aren't exactly as cheap to make as comics but they can still be a hell of a lot cheaper than movies, depending on what kind of game it is of course.

[Andrew NDB]

"Dark Fate" director Tim Miller thinks Dark Fate was great and that nobody saw his movie because they were tired of Terminator, not because he did anything wrong:

https://comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/terminator/deadpool-director-tim-miller-reflects-on-terminator-dark-fates-failings-and-says-i-was-wrong-a194939?fbclid=IwAR3OjgDEvs-IZJhIQFuPiWlaxmiPVdIThCog-hTXIOTTlEViW_JqcaD8v_0#gs.afb0.6tzbk9

Now it's James Cameron's turn. He now assumes all blame for the movie failing himself because he insisted that Arnold be in it. Or rather, because Arnold AND Linda were in it, that it was because it was too overall geriatric as a result. Not because the movie was bad:

https://movieweb.com/james-cameron-says-his-schwarzenegger-myopia-caused-terminator-dark-fate-to-fail/

[DarkFell]

Now it's James Cameron's turn. He now assumes all blame for the movie failing himself because he insisted that Arnold be in it. Or rather, because Arnold AND Linda were in it, that it was because it was too overall geriatric as a result. Not because the movie was bad:

https://movieweb.com/james-cameron-says-his-schwarzenegger-myopia-caused-terminator-dark-fate-to-fail/
Wrong James.. it was a bad movie because bad ideas made it into the script, therefore it became a bad movie. I think that Tim Miller came forward and admitted that he messed up.

Some time back, I read an article that Cameron wasn't present with Miller during the production of Dark Fate. The credibility of the article remains uncertain.

[Andrew NDB]

Some time back, I read an article that Cameron wasn't present with Miller during the production of Dark Fate. The credibility of the article remains uncertain.

Plenty of articles and interviews downplaying James' involvement. And no, he wasn't on set. Basically he was paid juuuust enough money so they could put his name on it, give him veto power on every aspect of the script (which he didn't really utilize), and give Tim notes on various things (mostly just pacing). Mostly he insisted Arnold be in it, gave Tim notes to speed things up, and then he just stood back and let him do whatever.