Opinion on TMNT 2007

[Torterra]

So what's your opinion on the 2007 TMNT film? Do you feel like it was an underrated film? or should it be thrown it the pile with Next Mutation and Coming out of their Shells?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaSGwls7M5E

[Leo656]

Oh, Lord, it doesn't even belong in the same conversation as those two things. C'mon, man, be nice! :lol:

It's alright. It only barely feels like it was designed as a TMNT movie, though, and that's most of the problem. It feels like some kinda kids' monster movie that they dropped TMNT into. It's crammed and the good parts don't have enough time to breathe, and the entire thing is clearly a vehicle for selling toys of the monsters and such.

There's a lot of good stuff in it, though. I thought the basic premise of Leo going away and coming back and readjusting, Raph's disillusionment and resentment, and all of them struggling to move on and adjust to a much more "docile" way of living after years of being at war with the Foot Clan, all of that was really good and pretty well done. There just wasn't enough of it.

The art style I could take or leave. The Turtles were perfectly fine, the humans looked dumb, kinda.

It's about a B, for me. I honestly don't watch it much. I like it whenever I do, but I rarely feel compelled to watch it again. But yeah, it's FAR from being among the worst things in the franchise.

[ssjup81]

No way does this movie need to be put in the same category as TNM! It's way better than that. The movie itself is fine and it did look nice. I really liked the fight between Raph and Leo for that film. My only problem with this movie, though, was that it felt a bit underwhelming. The villains also weren't very memorable for me and Casey and April were a bit dull too for me. Bottom line...the movie was just...boring, unfortunately.

[Leo656]

I really liked the fight between Raph and Leo for that film.

Fight was good. Wrong guy went over. :trazz:

They clearly booked that one for the fangirls.

[Shark_Blade]

- Remove the intro’s long winded rambling narration before the jungle.
- remove the pointless 13 monsters plot
- focus more on the other turtles FAIRLY. It shouldn’t be Raph and Leo movie only.
- Fix final fight and climax which are too short & resolved too abruptly

[Leo656]

I kinda agree that most of the time, Mike and Donnie get the shaft, but I kinda feel like they're also the most ill-defined of the four. It probably makes it hard to come up with stories for them that are compelling, considering how often they're defined by their dominant traits as "The Clown" and "The Brain".

Most things end up Leo and Raph-centric because they display the most layers to their personalities, even more so since their sibling rivalry is pretty much Hard Canon and adds another wrinkle to play with. Even in my own experience, they're the easiest two to write for. They display a lot of depth in just about every iteration, whereas Donnie is almost always shown as being very aloof and Mikey just yuks it up.

A good writer can inject more into them, sure, but it can be tricky without seeming "out of character" for them, since really, they don't ever display much "character" to begin with. Like, since Mikey is only ever shown being Super-Happy and Super-Energetic, most of the time, in the "official" works, how much can you show him being introspective, or downtrodden, or even just plain "calm" without it seeming like it's out of his established character? Same for Donnie; all we ever see him do is tinker. He probably does other things, but that's all we usually see. So, how do you manage that? You can give him other hobbies or interests, but in theory, when would he have the time, since we generally see him as being so tech-obsessed?

It's partly the fault of lazy writing. In 30+ years, most writers who've handled the four characters simply fall back on the established tropes. The Leader. The Angry One. The Jokester. The Brain. By default, the latter two are more one-dimensional archetypes. Which doesn't mean you CAN'T add more depth, it just means, it's tricky to do so without someone crying foul.

For example, some versions have Mikey toy with being a writer. I dig that, it seems to fit his personality, kinda. He typically enjoys comic books and has lots of imagination. But others sometimes say, "When would this goofball stop bouncing off the walls long enough to even read something, let alone write something?" And that's kinda fair, too, depending on which version of the character they're familiar with.

I'unno, Mike and Donnie are fun but they can be tricky. When I write them I try really, really hard to keep them involved and not just have them do the same old thing they usually do. But in the end Leo and Raph always end up taking up more space and getting more to do. For one thing, those two are generally presented as being more Proactive while Mikey and Donnie are more Passive, or at least Reactive.

Anybody can write anything, obviously. But I feel like there's lots of reasons most TMNT media leans more towards Leo and Raph, even though Mikey is probably the most popular one across all demographics. Donnie, I feel, is "too smart" for most fans to relate to as much as the other three, and probably most people writing him don't have the skillset to present him well, either.

I empathize, though, more balance is always welcome. Ensemble casts can be tricky.

[Galactus]

Not a bad movie at all.

I like that the environments are rendered as realistic as possible which is impressive for something made in 2007. They even capture the look of an authentic lived in New York City. This is kinda undermined by the more cartoon-ish designs of the turtles and especially the humans which is like something out a Pixar movie.

The movie could stand to be a little more streamlined in it's plot. So the ritual for immortality turns Yaotle's family to stone and unleashes 13 monsters into the world that have to be gathered up? Seems like overkill. Wouldn't it have been better to just pick one consequence. It's not exactly a huge surprise that the 13 monsters were added in because Playmates felt they'd make good toys.

The stone warriors work well as a mirror for the turtles plot. Leonardo is trying is trying get his family back together as is Max Winters although while the Terracotta Warriors look which Laird was so fond of at the time is interesting the whole thing is a little dry. I appreciate they didn't want to use Shredder as the villain straight away but they could have used other antagonists from the franchise. From Laird's blog I gather he suggested this early on but I guess the WB thought it was either Shredder or an original villain.

This speaks to a wider problem with the franchise that all of the villains aside from Shredder are either not conceptually a good fit for the big bad of a movie and the few that are are a not remotely well known enough to sell a movie.

As for Mike and Don well they've always gotten short changed in the movies. Secret of the Ooze looked like it was giving Donatello an arc but dropped it in the second act. The 1990 movie gives a lot of implied depth to them. Don being concerned about losing Splinter, Mike always deflecting with jokes away from the subject until it actually has to face up to it possibly happening. You get a little bit of that here you can see Mike's concern when it's revealed that Leo has been kidnapped. Interesting that Imagi brainstormed a potential sequel that focused on Mike. I assume if they ever did an invasion or space based movie Don would be front and center.

Anyway I've rambled enough. Nothing else to say but that Leo vs Raph scene is worth the entrance fee alone.

[Leo656]

All very good points, well-spoken.

The 13 Monsters bit was probably my biggest problem. For one thing, that's a LOT. And you don't even really see the Turtles engage with all 13. Why not, I'unno, seven, or SOME number that's much more reasonable and manageable, other than, "We wanna sell the f*ck outta these toys"?

I'm curious how those toys did, by the way; I only grabbed the four Turtles, because I thought they were cool but that everything else in the line was ugly. But since they were so hellbent on making a toy commercial, I'd be interested in hearing how well that worked out for 'em. My gut says, "Not well", but I don't have any numbers to back that up. "No sequel" probably says it all, though.

Great call on the Villain Problem, too. Frankly, and again, this is my gut talking, but they really should have just used Shredder and gone with a much simpler plot. The villain was a total non-entity and the plot, such as it is, is a bit of a muddle. Try explaining it to someone without using multiple paragraphs; you can't do it.

But again, if not Shredder, who? I know who certain TMNT fans would like to see, and you can rattle the names off easily. Rat King, for example. But can they "sell" a movie?

Consider "Batman Begins", and its decent-but-seriously-underwhelming box office compared to "The Dark Knight". This is partly because people weren't ready to trust Batman movies again so soon, but MORE about The Villain Problem. Even when the reviews were great, most people stayed home for "Begins", but Dark Knight made almost twice as much money. Why? "LOVE that JOKER!" When I tried to get friends to go see it with me, they were upset that the big Batman reboot "wasted its time" by using Scarecrow and Ra's al Ghul - two villains they either didn't know or didn't care about. "Man, nobody wants to see that... let me know when they do one with Joker in it, THEN I'll go." To this DAY, I know a ton of people who've seen Dark Knight a million times but who have never watched Begins or "Dark Knight Rises" even once. Why not? "Joker's not in them, why would I care? The other villains are boring."

So yeah, "The Villain Problem" is very real. On some level you do have to consider the broader audience. Who is "Max Winters" to an audience of kids and their moms? "Why are the Turtles fighting Monsters? Don't they fight Shredder? And where IS he, anyway?" These are very real issues. Rat King is popular with TMNT fans. So's Leatherhead, or Baxter Stockman. But can they "sell" a movie? We won't know until someone tries, but again, my gut tells me "No, they can't." My gut says, "If it's not Turtles vs. Shredder, people stay home." TMNT III didn't do great, either, if we're looking back long-term and trying to establish a precedent.

It's frustrating on one level, because a lot of fans do want something "different". But to be perfectly honest, they're a very vocal minority in the grand scheme of things.

They made the same mistake the Green Lantern movie did, by teasing the more interesting villain (Sinestro) for the sequel that never happened instead of coming out of the gate with that like they should have.

[Galactus]

I believe the 2007 movie toys did fairly well. Enough to save the brand from being discontinued.

So the story goes after the toys based on the 2003 show exceeded Playmates expectations and became the best selling toy line for two years in a row they got scales in their eyes and though Turtlemania was happening again and more than doubled their output in the next few waves. This coincided with a drop off in interest by kids in the line so not only were they not shifting the extra stuff but also they were not selling like they were before leading to very angry retailers about TMNT toys clogging up their shelves. Toys R Us threatened to stop selling TMNT products until they fixed this.

This led to the creation of Fast Forward whose toy line did okay but it was the 2007 toys that saved things. It was also why they dropped Fast Forward season 2 to do Back To The Sewers which had elements of the movie like the turtles having pupils, calling Splinter 'father' etc.

As for the issue with TMNT villains it's a definite problem for the property. Out of the Shadows had Shredder, Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady and Baxter Stockman yet still didn't sell. Even the most well known villains aren't always a guaranteed ticket sellers either. I tend to think if you start with a really good Shredder movie and win people over you can branch out to other less well known villains.

[Leo656]

Very interesting! I'd never heard about any of that, thanks for sharing. Again, this all took place during the 2005-2009 period where I had no internet, so I wouldn't have been hearing about it, and since then I just never really bothered to find out. But it's an interesting story.

I remember getting most of the first two Waves of 2K3 toys, but after that I wasn't really watching the show or collecting toys in general as much. I generally don't keep up with a line once I have the major main characters, since I collect lots of different toy lines and it gets expensive, so I have to be very selective. 2K7, I saw them all in stores but I didn't even bother with Casey or even Shredder because I just really didn't like the look of them. :ohwell: Everybody in that line outside of the Turtles was very... pointy. I'mma say "pointy". :lol:

I agree about the villain issue as well. If you lead in with Shredder and do a good movie, you do have the audience's faith so you get more of a longer leash to do other villains. Problem becomes, they can't figure out how to make two (or even one, sometimes) good TMNT movies in a row, thus constant reboots, thus they never even get that far. So you get the Catch-22 of lots of people being sick of Shredder already and wanting a new villain, but without Shredder the movie won't get enough attention to even deserve a sequel, thus no "new" villains, thus another reboot, thus more Shredder, again, and so on.

[newfan]

I feel that the collective over all on this is a 'meh' rather than strongly hated or loved.

I thought it odd that Splinter and the turtles didn't figure that Raph was the Night watcher, I guess they wanted the grand reveal with the fight scene or to show how distant they had become maybe? Not sure, but Splinter didn't know? I mean Leo immediately wondered what Raph was up to when April found him and was telling what things were like back home, but did not see it right in front of him when Casey knew right off, he could tell by the shaping of him that it was a giant turtle under there.

I have found it rewatchable and have seen it few times, some of that down to one of my children choosing to watch. Also ranking it among all other movies, it doesn't fall on the lower end for me, that could be seen as compliment to this movie or it saying something about some of the others.

[Leo656]

It's probably the third-best movie, maybe fourth if you count Turtles Forever in the conversation, but it's a low bar.

TMNT 1990: Really good movie.
SotO: Pretty okay kids movie.
TMNT III: Inoffensive, but bland.
2K7: Fun, nothing really "wrong" with it, but overcooked and forgettable.
Turtles Forever: Really good, but pisses off FW apologists and less enticing to people who didn't watch the 2K3 series.
PD TMNT: WTF is this sh*t?
OotS: No, seriously, WTF IS this sh*t???

Aaaaaaaand that's the way the story goes.

[AquaParade]

It's probably the third-best movie, maybe fourth if you count Turtles Forever in the conversation, but it's a low bar.

TMNT 1990: Really good movie.
SotO: Pretty okay kids movie.
TMNT III: Inoffensive, but bland.
2K7: Fun, nothing really "wrong" with it, but overcooked and forgettable.
Turtles Forever: Really good, but pisses off FW apologists and less enticing to people who didn't watch the 2K3 series.
PD TMNT: WTF is this sh*t?
OotS: No, seriously, WTF IS this sh*t???

Aaaaaaaand that's the way the story goes.

I can get along with this.

Personally, I might swap TMNT III with 2k7, but I'm not sure I could sit through either of them in their entirety, so it's a moot point.

EDIT: oh wait, maybe this isn't a ranking. Either way.

[Leo656]

Nope, just a timeline. I can't be bothered to rank sh*t, my opinions shift by the hour.

All I know is 1990 will always be Number 1. Everything else, eh, depends on when you ask me.

[newfan]

I'm pretty much 1990 first 2014 last. I'd have to do another watch through for definite order, don't usually count Turtles Forever as I see it more as a special, I guess it was meant as a direct to DVD movie?

[Wesley]

It?s my third favorite TMNT movie, behind 1990 and Turtles Forever. Decent enough film imo, even though it has a lot of flaws already mentioned in this thread. To be fair, it doesn?t have much competition.

[Leo656]

I'm pretty much 1990 first 2014 last. I'd have to do another watch through for definite order, don't usually count Turtles Forever as I see it more as a special, I guess it was meant as a direct to DVD movie?

It's kind of a gray area because "Forever" DID have a very limited theatrical showing so some people count it as a "real" movie. I kinda don't, but I see their point. And it's better than most of the "real" movies, so... why not, I guess?

[Galactus]

It's kind of a gray area because "Forever" DID have a very limited theatrical showing so some people count it as a "real" movie. I kinda don't, but I see their point. And it's better than most of the "real" movies, so... why not, I guess?

It was made as a TV movie and I'm not sure the theater showings even went ahead after the Nickelodeon buy out so I'd say no but it's not something I'd argue about if people count it as movie.

[Leo656]

Some people who no longer post here said they saw it in a theater. I think Andrew did, too? Again, a "screening" and a "release" are different things, but some people do count it.

One of the Hellraiser movies had a "theatrical release" of exactly one showing attended by the cast/crew and exactly zero paying customers, but apparently for bookkeeping reasons it still "counts", kinda/sorta.

Soooooo I don't know! I guess it depends on how you look at these things. I kinda wanna say Forever counts, just because it's better than 80% of the theatrical TMNT releases and it feels crummy to leave it out of the conversation when talking about "Real movies".

[neatoman]

It's probably the third-best movie, maybe fourth if you count Turtles Forever in the conversation, but it's a low bar.

TMNT 1990: Really good movie.
SotO: Pretty okay kids movie.
TMNT III: Inoffensive, but bland.
2K7: Fun, nothing really "wrong" with it, but overcooked and forgettable.
Turtles Forever: Really good, but pisses off FW apologists and less enticing to people who didn't watch the 2K3 series.
PD TMNT: WTF is this sh*t?
OotS: No, seriously, WTF IS this sh*t???

Aaaaaaaand that's the way the story goes.

I would say the problems with TMNT III goes well beyond being "bland". I can't honestly look at all the pointless scenes in that movie and say it's just bland. If you cut out all the stuff that goes nowhere and isn't important, the movie would be... What? 40 minutes long?

[Leo656]

I would say the problems with TMNT III goes well beyond being "bland". I can't honestly look at all the pointless scenes in that movie and say it's just bland. If you cut out all the stuff that goes nowhere and isn't important, the movie would be... What? 40 minutes long?

I guess, but if nothing else it's some fun character work. :ohwell: I like character stuff.

It almost feels like someone wrote a bunch of scenes of the Turtles just screwing around and decided to staple it into a movie.

[Galactus]

I would say the problems with TMNT III goes well beyond being "bland". I can't honestly look at all the pointless scenes in that movie and say it's just bland. If you cut out all the stuff that goes nowhere and isn't important, the movie would be... What? 40 minutes long?

For me TMNT II and III largely have what the other lacks.

Secret Of The Ooze had the better animatronics and all round production values and benefits greatly for being much more in line with what the general audience expected from a TMNT movie at the time ie: Shredder, Foot Clan, Mutants, modern NYC setting etc.

The third movie has more of an emphasis on the turtles characters, a better all round plot and action were the turtles even get to use their weapons.

I think III would always suffer for not being exactly what people expected of TMNT at the time but if it had the the second sequels suits and say Norinaga was not played for laughs and was an actual threat I could see it being better recieved. Imagine it climaxed with a rooftop battle between the turtles and a fully armored Norinaga mirroring the turtles vs Shredder fight from the 1990 movie. Heck you could even add in he's Saki's ancestor or some kind of origin of the Foot Clan plot similar to Masks which seemingly inspired it.

[Leo656]

Did a radioactive spider bite you in your sleep, brother? You're making a ton of good points today on multiple fronts!

Those are all things I wish I'd said. :ohwell:

[AquaParade]

For me TMNT II and III largely have what the other lacks.

Secret Of The Ooze had the better animatronics and all round production values and benefits greatly for being much more in line with what the general audience expected from a TMNT movie at the time ie: Shredder, Foot Clan, Mutants, modern NYC setting etc.

The third movie has more of an emphasis on the turtles characters, a better all round plot and action were the turtles even get to use their weapons.

I think III would always suffer for not being exactly what people expected of TMNT at the time but if it had the the second sequels suits and say Norinaga was not played for laughs and was an actual threat I could see it being better recieved. Imagine it climaxed with a rooftop battle between the turtles and a fully armored Norinaga mirroring the turtles vs Shredder fight from the 1990 movie. Heck you could even add in he's Saki's ancestor or some kind of origin of the Foot Clan plot similar to Masks which seemingly inspired it.

That sounds like a badass finale. Of course, it would take more work throughout the movie to make it worth it, but I love the concept.

TMNT III is just so...weird. I feel uncomfortable whenever Walker shows up on screen.

[Galactus]

Did a radioactive spider bite you in your sleep, brother? You're making a ton of good points today on multiple fronts!

Those are all things I wish I'd said. :ohwell:

My spider sense did warn me of danger just before you offered to give me a hand job.

That sounds like a badass finale. Of course, it would take more work throughout the movie to make it worth it, but I love the concept.

TMNT III is just so...weird. I feel uncomfortable whenever Walker shows up on screen.

Yeah tonally it would have to be a bit darker throughout to make Norinaga seem menacing enough to take on all four turtles but you could still have the goofy humour. I quite like Casey and the honour guards playing 'hockey' and at the bar.

[AquaParade]

Man, I always forget that Casey is in the third movie. Probably because I've not seen it many times. But I do recall the feeling I got last time I was reminded. It's like "oh, thank god. Someone I know has arrived to the party" kinda feeling.

[ssjup81]

Fight was good. Wrong guy went over. :trazz:

They clearly booked that one for the fangirls.Is it wrong that I actually forgot who won that fight? :lol: I've only seen the film once and remember liking the fight, but can't recall the outcome of it.

So, would you say the booking was done by Vince here? :PIt's probably the third-best movie, maybe fourth if you count Turtles Forever in the conversation, but it's a low bar.

TMNT 1990: Really good movie.
SotO: Pretty okay kids movie.
TMNT III: Inoffensive, but bland.
2K7: Fun, nothing really "wrong" with it, but overcooked and forgettable.
Turtles Forever: Really good, but pisses off FW apologists and less enticing to people who didn't watch the 2K3 series.
PD TMNT: WTF is this sh*t?
OotS: No, seriously, WTF IS this sh*t???

Aaaaaaaand that's the way the story goes.:lol:
I guess I'm one of those "apologists". I know the OT series was silly, but they didn't act the way the OT turtles did in Turtles Forever. They all felt...well, silly or off and like they couldn't take anything seriously. If the turtles had a some situation going on in the original series, they treated it like a threat if it was a threat. They also seemed to laugh at their own jokes in Turtles Forever and that was even stranger because characters like Leo wasn't the joking type (they had an ep or two about how boring Leo was in general for the OT series). He was the serious type and to an extent, so was Donny...who was also kind of bossy and acted more like the leader than Leo at times. Raph was the one to make wise-ass jokes and he would never laugh at an insult geared towards himself.

So yeah, to me, Turtles Forever didn't portray the OT turtles very well at all. The first crossover for the 2012 series seemed to get them mostly right even with legit criticisms of the original series (like how they used the items around them to fight at times compared to the 2012 series where they used their weapons more...although 2k12 Splinter did say that anything can be used as a weapon...). The second crossover (which I felt was unnecessary from the get-go and shouldn't have happened), felt like it was going into Turtles Forever territory, only not as bad as Turtles Forever.

Not sure if the 2k3 Turtles were off in their portrayals, though since I still haven't seen it. For all I know, they could've been off too.

[Torterra]

For me I really enjoyed the movie growing up I can see why some people wouldn't like it with the whole 13 monsters and making the foot clan a bunch of henchmen for the main villain instead of being the actual villains of the movie. But I'll say it's a good movie not the greatest , not the worst , but the most okay-ish like 7 out of 10 I do agree with some of you on the whole Mikey and Donnie getting the short end of the stick in this movie focusing more on Leo's and Raph's relationship. But I really do like animation and the art style especially for the city they really gave New York that dark, gritty look especially any scene with neon lights. This also gave us one the funniest fights with Raphael vs the Jersey Devil.

[ssjup81]

For me I really enjoyed the movie growing up I can see why some people wouldn't like it with the whole 13 monsters and making the foot clan a bunch of henchmen for the main villain instead of being the actual villains of the movie. But I'll say it's a good movie not the greatest , not the worst , but the most okay-ish like 7 out of 10 I do agree with some of you on the whole Mikey and Donnie getting the short end of the stick in this movie focusing more on Leo's and Raph's relationship. But I really do like animation and the art style especially for the city they really gave New York that dark, gritty look especially any scene with neon lights. This also gave us one the funniest fights with Raphael vs the Jersey Devil.Donny and Mikey being cast aside was a negative for me with this film. It was all about Leo and Raph. I felt this way about the Archie comics too...I felt that Leo and Mikey could've been given some more focus.

[Galactus]

Apart from the noogies which I thought was a reference to TMNT III literally everything the '87 turtles did in Turtles Forever is a reference to something that they did in the Fred Wolf animated series.

They definitely focused on working all of those in elements at the expense of their overall characterisation on the show but this was clearly done to provide a contrast with the 2k3 turtles. True, it wasn't accurate to what the '87 turtles were most of the time but it wasn't some huge insult to the the Fred Wolf characters and show people think. If anything it shows how much research they did to pick out individual silly moments to recreate.

[Leo656]

My spider sense did warn me of danger just before you offered to give me a hand job.

:lol: In my own defense, my wife got some absolutely killer "Adult Herbal Refreshments" today so I feel like it'll be a miracle if I remember anything from Today by Tomorrow. :lol:

In the meantime, take it as a compliment, Squire! :trazz:

Is it wrong that I actually forgot who won that fight? :lol: I've only seen the film once and remember liking the fight, but can't recall the outcome of it.

So, would you say the booking was done by Vince here? :P:lol:
I guess I'm one of those "apologists". I know the OT series was silly, but they didn't act the way the OT turtles did in Turtles Forever. They all felt...well, silly or off and like they couldn't take anything seriously. If the turtles had a some situation going on in the original series, they treated it like a threat if it was a threat. They also seemed to laugh at their own jokes in Turtles Forever and that was even stranger because characters like Leo wasn't the joking type (they had an ep or two about how boring Leo was in general for the OT series). He was the serious type and to an extent, so was Donny...who was also kind of bossy and acted more like the leader than Leo at times. Raph was the one to make wise-ass jokes and he would never laugh at an insult geared towards himself.

So yeah, to me, Turtles Forever didn't portray the OT turtles very well at all. The first crossover for the 2012 series seemed to get them mostly right even with legit criticisms of the original series (like how they used the items around them to fight at times compared to the 2012 series where they used their weapons more...although 2k12 Splinter did say that anything can be used as a weapon...). The second crossover (which I felt was unnecessary from the get-go and shouldn't have happened), felt like it was going into Turtles Forever territory, only not as bad as Turtles Forever.

Not sure if the 2k3 Turtles were off in their portrayals, though since I still haven't seen it. For all I know, they could've been off too.

Vince McMahon or Vince Russo, either way. :trazz:

And it was Raph with the Hyper Uppercut, which was some ol' buuuuullsh*t. I get why they did it, but eh.

Regarding the FW TMNT in Forever... I knooooowwwwwww. :trazz: I'm not saying they didn't take the FW characters' lesser traits to a certain... extreme. But all told, it was a 2K3 movie and the FW Turtles were just guest-starring. And from the very earliest episodes of 2K3, "F*CK that other cartoon" was ingrained in the DNA. It wasn't always outright hostile, but a LOT of the writing and creative choices of that show, were a direct rebuke of the original show. So it's only to be expected that when the FW Turtles show up in a vehicle that's always been all about taking the piss out of them from the first jump, they're not gonna be given much of a "shine".

Plus, disregarding all that, the strong contrast makes the humor of the piece more direct. Yeah, they overdid it a bit for effect. But I liked it. I don't even hate FW like some do, or as I've sometimes been accused of. I just felt like it worked great for what they were aiming for.

It'd be like if Justice League Unlimited did a Super-Friends cross-over movie, and in it, "Super-Friends" Superman just constantly got incapacitated by Kryptonite or otherwise done away with, and all he did was sit around yelling for help while Batman and the others did all the work. Did that happen ALL the time on Super-Friends? No, but it happened a lot, way more than it ever should have, and I would have totally gotten the gag and I totally would have popped for it, favorite character or no. "Man, Superman, that other you is a Super-Putz!" "...Shut up, Flash." :lol:

Apart from the noogies which I thought was a reference to TMNT III literally everything the '87 turtles did in Turtles Forever is a reference to something that they did in the Fred Wolf animated series.

They definitely focused on working all of those in elements at the expense of their overall characterisation on the show but this was clearly done to provide a contrast with the 2k3 turtles. True, it wasn't accurate to what the '87 turtles were most of the time but it wasn't some huge insult to the the Fred Wolf characters and show people think. If anything it shows how much research they did to pick out individual silly moments to recreate.

Aaaaaaaand ANOTHER dunk! :o The f*ck you puttin' in your cereal, boy?

[ABrown]

Absolutely loved the 2007 CGI movie. Like the 4Kids series, it very much feels like how the TMNT should be portrayed.

[Torterra]

:lol: In my own defense, my wife got some absolutely killer "Adult Herbal Refreshments" today so I feel like it'll be a miracle if I remember anything from Today by Tomorrow. :lol:

In the meantime, take it as a compliment, Squire! :trazz:



Vince McMahon or Vince Russo, either way. :trazz:

And it was Raph with the Hyper Uppercut, which was some ol' buuuuullsh*t. I get why they did it, but eh.

Regarding the FW TMNT in Forever... I knooooowwwwwww. :trazz: I'm not saying they didn't take the FW characters' lesser traits to a certain... extreme. But all told, it was a 2K3 movie and the FW Turtles were just guest-starring. And from the very earliest episodes of 2K3, "F*CK that other cartoon" was ingrained in the DNA. It wasn't always outright hostile, but a LOT of the writing and creative choices of that show, were a direct rebuke of the original show. So it's only to be expected that when the FW Turtles show up in a vehicle that's always been all about taking the piss out of them from the first jump, they're not gonna be given much of a "shine".

Plus, disregarding all that, the strong contrast makes the humor of the piece more direct. Yeah, they overdid it a bit for effect. But I liked it. I don't even hate FW like some do, or as I've sometimes been accused of. I just felt like it worked great for what they were aiming for.

It'd be like if Justice League Unlimited did a Super-Friends cross-over movie, and in it, "Super-Friends" Superman just constantly got incapacitated by Kryptonite or otherwise done away with, and all he did was sit around yelling for help while Batman and the others did all the work. Did that happen ALL the time on Super-Friends? No, but it happened a lot, way more than it ever should have, and I would have totally gotten the gag and I totally would have popped for it, favorite character or no. "Man, Superman, that other you is a Super-Putz!" "...Shut up, Flash." :lol:



Aaaaaaaand ANOTHER dunk! :o The f*ck you puttin' in your cereal, boy?

Yeah I liked Turtles Forever when I first saw it I really didn't know anything about the FW turtles besides they were a lot more goofy compared to the 2003 turtles. But watching a few episodes of the FW turtles when I was older I can see why some fans would be rubbed the wrong towards Forever's interpretation of them. But I don't think it wasn't as bad as some would see it, were the FW turtles a little too goofy ? yeah a little, but they did have serious moments, really funny moments (the fourth wall breaks) and they did have moments where they did shine.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I remember seeing TMNT at the cinema when it originally came out. I went with my Mam. I enjoyed it at the time, though in more recent viewings I haven't really liked it that much.

It's ok, but the plot is barely one that fits TMNT.

[victory_angel]

I liked this story, but I felt that instead of focusing on fighting the monsters and the Foot Clan. Focus on how Leo's absence is affecting them rather consolidating that all into some tie in comic book stories that people might not actually read.

Even then Raph and Leo's comic book stories were the most compelling while Donatello's just introduces them to one of the 13 monsters. And April's comic book just hints at the Generals.

So maybe instead of having that long opening where Forest Whitaker is talking about how they all eventually took down the Shredder and blah.

Raph comic book has them all tracking down some Triceraton's, but its kinda dumb to have them villain group that hasn't been introduced yet in the movies. He sees an old guy getting beat up and tells his brothers they should help. Leo objects saying that they can't because they are not supposed to involve themselves in human problems.
Raph slips away to go help the old man who he learns is named David. Days later Raph hears gunshots coming from David's place and finds the old man dying on the floor. David then tells Raph about something he has hidden before he dies which turns out to be the Nightwatcher Costume.

Leo's comic book just follows a concept called the five-fold path. Because before he leaves Splinter tells him the "Five-fold path would lead to the one" which leads him to various places around the world learn what he needs to learn. Part of which has him meet the Ninja Tribunal and the Ancient One who basicly tell him he failed his journey because he abandonded his family.
On his Journey he learns the concept of Courage, Compassion, Selflessness, Humility, and Community which leads to the one which is family.

Most of what Donnie and Mikey do in the prequils are starting up Cowabunga Carl's, which Donnie uses to help fund their family and help him pay for equipment for his Science Projects.

In addtion to Raph being the Red Oni to Leo's Blue Oni, Donnie also should have had his moment to vent about Leo's absence since he was the One that was leading the team in Leo's absence and everything fell apart on his watch.

[Galactus]

Speaking of the comic tie ins I remember Tristan Jones saying that they were the best selling TMNT comics in years.

I'd like to think that if Mirage knew they'd be so successful they'd have gone for more (shall we say) marketable creative teams and published them in colour. I don't know how true it is but I've read there is not much cost difference between publishing a black and white book with tones to a colour one so I'd definitely pushed for colour.

The video game also did very well. Ubisoft was so happy with the sales that they said they would have done a sequel game even if there was no sequel to the movie which ended up becoming Smash Up.

Thinking about it this little good but not great movie did quite well by the franchise. I don't think anyone capitalised on it the way they could have.

[victory_angel]

Speaking of the comic tie ins I remember Tristan Jones saying that they were the best selling TMNT comics in years.

I'd like to think that if Mirage knew they'd be so successful they'd have gone for more (shall we say) marketable creative teams and published them in colour. I don't know how true it is but I've read there is not much cost difference between publishing a black and white book with tones to a colour one so I'd definitely pushed for colour.

The video game also did very well. Ubisoft was so happy with the sales that they said they would have done a sequel game even if there was no sequel to the movie which ended up becoming Smash Up.

Thinking about it this little good but not great movie did quite well by the franchise. I don't think anyone capitalised on it the way they could have.

There were certainly plans for the sequels that sounded interesting. The first would center on Michelangelo feeling like he's the only one who doesn't fit in so he finds himself going to Karai and she tells him perhaps the Foot Clan is where he belongs.

While the next sequel would have things like the Technodrome and the Triceratons and Donatello would be a catalyst in that.

That could be why they are focusing on Raph and Leo so much in the first Movie while having Donnie and Mikey had the background roles of being the brains behind everything and comic relief.

The main issue with the 2007 movie is that it was written as though it expected the people watching to have some idea of what had gone on prior to this. They don't need to explain and establish who the characters are too much since the majority of the people going to see that film would have some familiarity with the franchise. And they were implying that this film was connected to the original film universe.

The problem is the last film of the original film universe was in 1993...this movie is set in 2007. So it would be more appropriate for them to have just started it out as a new Universe and recreate the characters to introduce people who less familiar with the franchise to the cast, while still leaving enough things established enough that people already familiar with the cast and personalities of the characters can just enjoy the ride.

[Galactus]

We've had this discussion a few times on here. While established fans want to skip to the good stuff origin movies are necessary especially with a franchise like this which varies so much from version to version.

Kevin Munroe detailed the whole Mikey joins the Foot pitch of his. It would be interesting to see just how much that would be played for laughs vs how much they'd take the concept seriously.

The Triceratons and Technodrome one I've also heard as a third movie. The Technodrome is one of the few Fred Wolf things that Peter Laird said he actually likes so I would have been curious to see if he'd green light it. My gut tells me no.

Of course all this would be dependent on WB being okay with these ideas and I'd imagine after that very obvious tease at the end of the first movie whatever the followed up with would have Shredder as the main villain.

We know even after Mirage passed on another cgi movie in favour of a live action one Imagi were still working on potential pitch for another TMNT film and made up a mock poster with Shredder in the background and Mikey looking at his demutated brothers and Splinter.

If nothing else these pitched showed they were interesting in giving Michelangelo more of a spotlight and possibly Don too if they were eventually going to do a sci fi movie.

[Leo656]

I'm sorry, Mikey even entertaining the notion of joining the Foot clan after ostensibly fighting them a bunch of times and them openly trying to kill him rather often is just a dumb idea. I always hate when those storylines creep up. "Sorry about all the times we almost murdered each other! Just business brah!" Hate it. Sounds intriguing on the surface and falls apart completely after two seconds of rational thought. I know Mikey's generally "The Dumb One", but I would hope he would be smarter and more savvy than to fall for something like THAT. Sting trusting Ric Flair made more sense, and it didn't make any. "Ohhhh, of course the guys who spent 100% of their time for several years trying to cripple Sting eventually turned on and tried to cripple Sting, again." It makes the "babyface" look like a total moron for ever being so trusting and naive. Just blech.

I can see why they'd give Mikey a more prominent storyline in a movie, but that's just a bad idea on its face.

[Galactus]

I think Image pulled it off well enough with Raph joining the Foot Clan. It made a certain amount of sense there since they were carrying on from the Mirage were there was a firm truce after City At War and since the turtles are not crime fighters in the Mirage continuity you could see why he could work with the criminals like the Foot. Of course that story also showed why it wouldn't work out long term because Raph does have a conscience.

It doesn't seem that the turtles and Foot have a truce or any kind of relationship that isn't acrimonious. Not to mention the Imagi turtles are definitely crime fighters so they would never work with criminals.

The whole idea of Mikey realising he isn't as good of a ninja as his brothers is an interesting one but joining the Foot to train with them sounds like complete overkill. Not as much as Donatello going to a whole other universe to learn from Bruce Wayne for the same reason in the second Batman/TMNT crossover but definitely close.

[victory_angel]

The whole idea of Mikey realising he isn't as good of a ninja as his brothers is an interesting one but joining the Foot to train with them sounds like complete overkill. Not as much as Donatello going to a whole other universe to learn from Bruce Wayne for the same reason in the second Batman/TMNT crossover but definitely close.

I think April said it best the 2012 version where she tells the other Turtles that they don't appreciate him.

I'm most versions Mikey's just the kid brother. He is capable of being more talented in Ninjitsu then any of this brothers, but he ruins his potential of being so because he likes goofing off all the time.

So with his family, Leo's the leader, Raph is the blood knight, and Donnie is the brains, all he is the annoying kid brother who just gets in the way and doesn't do anything right. If that happens long enough, a person could be driven to feel they have no place in the family and go find a place of his own, even if that place is his greatest enemy.

So perhaps he might go along with joining the Foot, when his brothers would find out and confront him. He would yell at them tell them they never appreciated him before, now he's with a group that does see him for who he could be. Even when he has his doubts about the path he has chosen, he reminds himself that the Foot are his family now. This comes to a head later where the Shredder has the other Turtles captured and tells Mikey that he needs to show his loyalty to foot by executing his former companions.

Mikey at first looks like he's going to do it, but then realizes he can't. He tells Shredder that showing loyalty doesn't mean slaying those who matter to you. He possibly implores the Shredder and Karai to consider alternatives...do their groups have to be enemies? After all a their core they are all ninja, the Food has resources that could help the Turtles and the Turtles have abilities that could be useful to the Foot. Perhaps a time had come to put their fude behind them and learn to make a difference together. The Shredder would scoff at this and tell Michelangelo to watch closely. This might result in the Turtles and Splinter being demutated. Since he proved he wasn't loyal Mikey is kicked out of the Foot and left with his brothers and Father as just simple minded animals and his regrets.

[cloud]

TMNT was one of the best sequels I've ever watched.
I think I rank it next to the original movie. Better than Secret of the Ooze.

It was great, fun, have heart and no Shredder. Shredder is a great villain but it gets boring that everytime there is a new turtles movie people think of the Shredder. Leaves no room for Baxter Stockman, Utroms, Tricertons and others

[Leo656]

Sure, if you're pissed off and disillusioned, anything makes sense. Even the idea that the people who spend all their time trying to kill you, maybe won't try to kill you if you're nice to them for five minutes. They're totally going to let bygones be bygones and accept you, and they're totally not setting you up to let your guard down so they can kill you a lot easier with no resistance. Right.

Sure. That makes sense. If the character in question is a complete f*cking moron who can't see that coming from a mile away.

I know Mikey is "The Dumb One", but I really, really prefer that he not be THAT dumb.

Bad idea. Plastic Man can't reach far enough to make it believable. And the audience would see the "twist" where the bad guys turn on him coming from ten miles away, which again, makes Mikey look like a moron, NOT sympathetic.

Nothing but "Nope". Half-baked fanfic at best.

[Galactus]

Kevin Munroe was a stand up guy when he posted here and clearly had a lot of love for the franchise but his ideas for were he'd take the sequels if it were up to him were pretty fan fic-y. Whether Laird or the WB would ever approve of them is a different matter.

Then again in some ways TMNT '07 is a bit fan ficy in itself. It takes place in a nebulous continuity were not only did the events of the 90s live action movies happen but seemingly much of their adventures in other mediums too. The characterisation resembled the 2k3 show but (and here is the kicker) the whole thing is basically a repackaged Fred Wolf episode.

He takes Splinter Vanishes and turned into a movie. Heck even the Stone Warriors could likely be a reference to the stone warriors in the '87 show. We know Laird liked the idea of the turtles fighting animated Terracotta Warriors but who knows that could have had it's genesis in Munroe pushing for characters resembling General Traag and co.

[Leo656]

Yeah, "Professional Fanfic" is all the rage nowadays. It's the worst thing to come from Geoff Johns's rise to fame, acclaim and power in the early-2000s.

Johns was a fanboy who used to read comics and write letters to DC editors asking why they didn't do things that he thought were cool in his teenage, Freshman writing class brain, but didn't make a ton of sense or fit within what was firmly established. Like "Why can't Superboy be a clone of Superman AND Lex Luthor? WOW!" And they'd reply that the books had already given a million reasons why that couldn't be possible. Stuff like that.

So then, he grows up, gets the pen, and suddenly, ALL those things he wanted to see when he was 15 are canon, now, and the tons and tons of stuff that completely and thoroughly debunks and contradicts those ideas? "Those stories never happened. MY stuff is canon, now, deal with it." :roll:

He did some good and even great stories, but it didn't establish a good precedent for how to write an established licensed property. "Spitting on everyone else's hard work because you swear you're the smartest guy in the room" isn't very endearing, especially when you're asking people to just ignore a ton of things they already know. Now, 20 years later, an entire generation of "writers" came up who think that's the correct way to do things, and it absolutely is not. But you see it everywhere, now. And you can pretty much trace it back to him.

I like a lot of his stuff, I'm just saying. That approach to writing for a licensed property is bad for the industry as a whole. And before him, it didn't happen. Now, it's standard.