Opinion on TMNT 2007

[Torterra]

So what's your opinion on the 2007 TMNT film? Do you feel like it was an underrated film? or should it be thrown it the pile with Next Mutation and Coming out of their Shells?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaSGwls7M5E

[Leo656]

Oh, Lord, it doesn't even belong in the same conversation as those two things. C'mon, man, be nice!

It's alright. It only barely feels like it was designed as a TMNT movie, though, and that's most of the problem. It feels like some kinda kids' monster movie that they dropped TMNT into. It's crammed and the good parts don't have enough time to breathe, and the entire thing is clearly a vehicle for selling toys of the monsters and such.

There's a lot of good stuff in it, though. I thought the basic premise of Leo going away and coming back and readjusting, Raph's disillusionment and resentment, and all of them struggling to move on and adjust to a much more "docile" way of living after years of being at war with the Foot Clan, all of that was really good and pretty well done. There just wasn't enough of it.

The art style I could take or leave. The Turtles were perfectly fine, the humans looked dumb, kinda.

It's about a B, for me. I honestly don't watch it much. I like it whenever I do, but I rarely feel compelled to watch it again. But yeah, it's FAR from being among the worst things in the franchise.

[ssjup81]

No way does this movie need to be put in the same category as TNM! It's way better than that. The movie itself is fine and it did look nice. I really liked the fight between Raph and Leo for that film. My only problem with this movie, though, was that it felt a bit underwhelming. The villains also weren't very memorable for me and Casey and April were a bit dull too for me. Bottom line...the movie was just...boring, unfortunately.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

I really liked the fight between Raph and Leo for that film.

Fight was good. Wrong guy went over.

They clearly booked that one for the fangirls.

[Shark_Blade]

- Remove the intro’s long winded rambling narration before the jungle.
- remove the pointless 13 monsters plot
- focus more on the other turtles FAIRLY. It shouldn’t be Raph and Leo movie only.
- Fix final fight and climax which are too short & resolved too abruptly

[Leo656]

I kinda agree that most of the time, Mike and Donnie get the shaft, but I kinda feel like they're also the most ill-defined of the four. It probably makes it hard to come up with stories for them that are compelling, considering how often they're defined by their dominant traits as "The Clown" and "The Brain".

Most things end up Leo and Raph-centric because they display the most layers to their personalities, even more so since their sibling rivalry is pretty much Hard Canon and adds another wrinkle to play with. Even in my own experience, they're the easiest two to write for. They display a lot of depth in just about every iteration, whereas Donnie is almost always shown as being very aloof and Mikey just yuks it up.

A good writer can inject more into them, sure, but it can be tricky without seeming "out of character" for them, since really, they don't ever display much "character" to begin with. Like, since Mikey is only ever shown being Super-Happy and Super-Energetic, most of the time, in the "official" works, how much can you show him being introspective, or downtrodden, or even just plain "calm" without it seeming like it's out of his established character? Same for Donnie; all we ever see him do is tinker. He probably does other things, but that's all we usually see. So, how do you manage that? You can give him other hobbies or interests, but in theory, when would he have the time, since we generally see him as being so tech-obsessed?

It's partly the fault of lazy writing. In 30+ years, most writers who've handled the four characters simply fall back on the established tropes. The Leader. The Angry One. The Jokester. The Brain. By default, the latter two are more one-dimensional archetypes. Which doesn't mean you CAN'T add more depth, it just means, it's tricky to do so without someone crying foul.

For example, some versions have Mikey toy with being a writer. I dig that, it seems to fit his personality, kinda. He typically enjoys comic books and has lots of imagination. But others sometimes say, "When would this goofball stop bouncing off the walls long enough to even read something, let alone write something?" And that's kinda fair, too, depending on which version of the character they're familiar with.

I'unno, Mike and Donnie are fun but they can be tricky. When I write them I try really, really hard to keep them involved and not just have them do the same old thing they usually do. But in the end Leo and Raph always end up taking up more space and getting more to do. For one thing, those two are generally presented as being more Proactive while Mikey and Donnie are more Passive, or at least Reactive.

Anybody can write anything, obviously. But I feel like there's lots of reasons most TMNT media leans more towards Leo and Raph, even though Mikey is probably the most popular one across all demographics. Donnie, I feel, is "too smart" for most fans to relate to as much as the other three, and probably most people writing him don't have the skillset to present him well, either.

I empathize, though, more balance is always welcome. Ensemble casts can be tricky.

[Galactus]

Not a bad movie at all.

I like that the environments are rendered as realistic as possible which is impressive for something made in 2007. They even capture the look of an authentic lived in New York City. This is kinda undermined by the more cartoon-ish designs of the turtles and especially the humans which is like something out a Pixar movie.

The movie could stand to be a little more streamlined in it's plot. So the ritual for immortality turns Yaotle's family to stone and unleashes 13 monsters into the world that have to be gathered up? Seems like overkill. Wouldn't it have been better to just pick one consequence. It's not exactly a huge surprise that the 13 monsters were added in because Playmates felt they'd make good toys.

The stone warriors work well as a mirror for the turtles plot. Leonardo is trying is trying get his family back together as is Max Winters although while the Terracotta Warriors look which Laird was so fond of at the time is interesting the whole thing is a little dry. I appreciate they didn't want to use Shredder as the villain straight away but they could have used other antagonists from the franchise. From Laird's blog I gather he suggested this early on but I guess the WB thought it was either Shredder or an original villain.

This speaks to a wider problem with the franchise that all of the villains aside from Shredder are either not conceptually a good fit for the big bad of a movie and the few that are are a not remotely well known enough to sell a movie.

As for Mike and Don well they've always gotten short changed in the movies. Secret of the Ooze looked like it was giving Donatello an arc but dropped it in the second act. The 1990 movie gives a lot of implied depth to them. Don being concerned about losing Splinter, Mike always deflecting with jokes away from the subject until it actually has to face up to it possibly happening. You get a little bit of that here you can see Mike's concern when it's revealed that Leo has been kidnapped. Interesting that Imagi brainstormed a potential sequel that focused on Mike. I assume if they ever did an invasion or space based movie Don would be front and center.

Anyway I've rambled enough. Nothing else to say but that Leo vs Raph scene is worth the entrance fee alone.

[Leo656]

All very good points, well-spoken.

The 13 Monsters bit was probably my biggest problem. For one thing, that's a LOT. And you don't even really see the Turtles engage with all 13. Why not, I'unno, seven, or SOME number that's much more reasonable and manageable, other than, "We wanna sell the f*ck outta these toys"?

I'm curious how those toys did, by the way; I only grabbed the four Turtles, because I thought they were cool but that everything else in the line was ugly. But since they were so hellbent on making a toy commercial, I'd be interested in hearing how well that worked out for 'em. My gut says, "Not well", but I don't have any numbers to back that up. "No sequel" probably says it all, though.

Great call on the Villain Problem, too. Frankly, and again, this is my gut talking, but they really should have just used Shredder and gone with a much simpler plot. The villain was a total non-entity and the plot, such as it is, is a bit of a muddle. Try explaining it to someone without using multiple paragraphs; you can't do it.

But again, if not Shredder, who? I know who certain TMNT fans would like to see, and you can rattle the names off easily. Rat King, for example. But can they "sell" a movie?

Consider "Batman Begins", and its decent-but-seriously-underwhelming box office compared to "The Dark Knight". This is partly because people weren't ready to trust Batman movies again so soon, but MORE about The Villain Problem. Even when the reviews were great, most people stayed home for "Begins", but Dark Knight made almost twice as much money. Why? "LOVE that JOKER!" When I tried to get friends to go see it with me, they were upset that the big Batman reboot "wasted its time" by using Scarecrow and Ra's al Ghul - two villains they either didn't know or didn't care about. "Man, nobody wants to see that... let me know when they do one with Joker in it, THEN I'll go." To this DAY, I know a ton of people who've seen Dark Knight a million times but who have never watched Begins or "Dark Knight Rises" even once. Why not? "Joker's not in them, why would I care? The other villains are boring."

So yeah, "The Villain Problem" is very real. On some level you do have to consider the broader audience. Who is "Max Winters" to an audience of kids and their moms? "Why are the Turtles fighting Monsters? Don't they fight Shredder? And where IS he, anyway?" These are very real issues. Rat King is popular with TMNT fans. So's Leatherhead, or Baxter Stockman. But can they "sell" a movie? We won't know until someone tries, but again, my gut tells me "No, they can't." My gut says, "If it's not Turtles vs. Shredder, people stay home." TMNT III didn't do great, either, if we're looking back long-term and trying to establish a precedent.

It's frustrating on one level, because a lot of fans do want something "different". But to be perfectly honest, they're a very vocal minority in the grand scheme of things.

They made the same mistake the Green Lantern movie did, by teasing the more interesting villain (Sinestro) for the sequel that never happened instead of coming out of the gate with that like they should have.

[Galactus]

I believe the 2007 movie toys did fairly well. Enough to save the brand from being discontinued.

So the story goes after the toys based on the 2003 show exceeded Playmates expectations and became the best selling toy line for two years in a row they got scales in their eyes and though Turtlemania was happening again and more than doubled their output in the next few waves. This coincided with a drop off in interest by kids in the line so not only were they not shifting the extra stuff but also they were not selling like they were before leading to very angry retailers about TMNT toys clogging up their shelves. Toys R Us threatened to stop selling TMNT products until they fixed this.

This led to the creation of Fast Forward whose toy line did okay but it was the 2007 toys that saved things. It was also why they dropped Fast Forward season 2 to do Back To The Sewers which had elements of the movie like the turtles having pupils, calling Splinter 'father' etc.

As for the issue with TMNT villains it's a definite problem for the property. Out of the Shadows had Shredder, Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady and Baxter Stockman yet still didn't sell. Even the most well known villains aren't always a guaranteed ticket sellers either. I tend to think if you start with a really good Shredder movie and win people over you can branch out to other less well known villains.

[Leo656]

Very interesting! I'd never heard about any of that, thanks for sharing. Again, this all took place during the 2005-2009 period where I had no internet, so I wouldn't have been hearing about it, and since then I just never really bothered to find out. But it's an interesting story.

I remember getting most of the first two Waves of 2K3 toys, but after that I wasn't really watching the show or collecting toys in general as much. I generally don't keep up with a line once I have the major main characters, since I collect lots of different toy lines and it gets expensive, so I have to be very selective. 2K7, I saw them all in stores but I didn't even bother with Casey or even Shredder because I just really didn't like the look of them. Everybody in that line outside of the Turtles was very... pointy. I'mma say "pointy".

I agree about the villain issue as well. If you lead in with Shredder and do a good movie, you do have the audience's faith so you get more of a longer leash to do other villains. Problem becomes, they can't figure out how to make two (or even one, sometimes) good TMNT movies in a row, thus constant reboots, thus they never even get that far. So you get the Catch-22 of lots of people being sick of Shredder already and wanting a new villain, but without Shredder the movie won't get enough attention to even deserve a sequel, thus no "new" villains, thus another reboot, thus more Shredder, again, and so on.

[newfan]

I feel that the collective over all on this is a 'meh' rather than strongly hated or loved.

I thought it odd that Splinter and the turtles didn't figure that Raph was the Night watcher, I guess they wanted the grand reveal with the fight scene or to show how distant they had become maybe? Not sure, but Splinter didn't know? I mean Leo immediately wondered what Raph was up to when April found him and was telling what things were like back home, but did not see it right in front of him when Casey knew right off, he could tell by the shaping of him that it was a giant turtle under there.

I have found it rewatchable and have seen it few times, some of that down to one of my children choosing to watch. Also ranking it among all other movies, it doesn't fall on the lower end for me, that could be seen as compliment to this movie or it saying something about some of the others.

[Leo656]

It's probably the third-best movie, maybe fourth if you count Turtles Forever in the conversation, but it's a low bar.

TMNT 1990: Really good movie.
SotO: Pretty okay kids movie.
TMNT III: Inoffensive, but bland.
2K7: Fun, nothing really "wrong" with it, but overcooked and forgettable.
Turtles Forever: Really good, but pisses off FW apologists and less enticing to people who didn't watch the 2K3 series.
PD TMNT: WTF is this sh*t?
OotS: No, seriously, WTF IS this sh*t???

Aaaaaaaand that's the way the story goes.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

It's probably the third-best movie, maybe fourth if you count Turtles Forever in the conversation, but it's a low bar.

TMNT 1990: Really good movie.
SotO: Pretty okay kids movie.
TMNT III: Inoffensive, but bland.
2K7: Fun, nothing really "wrong" with it, but overcooked and forgettable.
Turtles Forever: Really good, but pisses off FW apologists and less enticing to people who didn't watch the 2K3 series.
PD TMNT: WTF is this sh*t?
OotS: No, seriously, WTF IS this sh*t???

Aaaaaaaand that's the way the story goes.

I can get along with this.

Personally, I might swap TMNT III with 2k7, but I'm not sure I could sit through either of them in their entirety, so it's a moot point.

EDIT: oh wait, maybe this isn't a ranking. Either way.

[Leo656]

Nope, just a timeline. I can't be bothered to rank sh*t, my opinions shift by the hour.

All I know is 1990 will always be Number 1. Everything else, eh, depends on when you ask me.

[newfan]

I'm pretty much 1990 first 2014 last. I'd have to do another watch through for definite order, don't usually count Turtles Forever as I see it more as a special, I guess it was meant as a direct to DVD movie?

[Wesley]

It?s my third favorite TMNT movie, behind 1990 and Turtles Forever. Decent enough film imo, even though it has a lot of flaws already mentioned in this thread. To be fair, it doesn?t have much competition.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by newfan

I'm pretty much 1990 first 2014 last. I'd have to do another watch through for definite order, don't usually count Turtles Forever as I see it more as a special, I guess it was meant as a direct to DVD movie?

It's kind of a gray area because "Forever" DID have a very limited theatrical showing so some people count it as a "real" movie. I kinda don't, but I see their point. And it's better than most of the "real" movies, so... why not, I guess?

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by Leo656

It's kind of a gray area because "Forever" DID have a very limited theatrical showing so some people count it as a "real" movie. I kinda don't, but I see their point. And it's better than most of the "real" movies, so... why not, I guess?

It was made as a TV movie and I'm not sure the theater showings even went ahead after the Nickelodeon buy out so I'd say no but it's not something I'd argue about if people count it as movie.

[Leo656]

Some people who no longer post here said they saw it in a theater. I think Andrew did, too? Again, a "screening" and a "release" are different things, but some people do count it.

One of the Hellraiser movies had a "theatrical release" of exactly one showing attended by the cast/crew and exactly zero paying customers, but apparently for bookkeeping reasons it still "counts", kinda/sorta.

Soooooo I don't know! I guess it depends on how you look at these things. I kinda wanna say Forever counts, just because it's better than 80% of the theatrical TMNT releases and it feels crummy to leave it out of the conversation when talking about "Real movies".

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

It's probably the third-best movie, maybe fourth if you count Turtles Forever in the conversation, but it's a low bar.

TMNT 1990: Really good movie.
SotO: Pretty okay kids movie.
TMNT III: Inoffensive, but bland.
2K7: Fun, nothing really "wrong" with it, but overcooked and forgettable.
Turtles Forever: Really good, but pisses off FW apologists and less enticing to people who didn't watch the 2K3 series.
PD TMNT: WTF is this sh*t?
OotS: No, seriously, WTF IS this sh*t???

Aaaaaaaand that's the way the story goes.

I would say the problems with TMNT III goes well beyond being "bland". I can't honestly look at all the pointless scenes in that movie and say it's just bland. If you cut out all the stuff that goes nowhere and isn't important, the movie would be... What? 40 minutes long?