Sony's Spider-Man 4 (sequel to "No Way Home")

[drgon78]

I saw the movie this morning, liked it better then the first two, but still like the 3rd one best.

[ToTheNines]

Would I be allowed to drink boba tea?

Give me a list of movies I would need to watch to follow what’s happening without breaking the bank. Because if Pip The Leprechaun shows up without explanation, I’m gonna be mighty p!$$ed off.

Here's everything I've bothered keeping track of on my timeline, whether I watched it or not:

Black Widow (Pretty good, necessary viewing)
Loki season 1 and 2 (Both very good, necessary viewing)
Wandavision (Loved it, definitely watch)

Shang-Chi (I liked it. Ties up some stuff from Iron-Man 3 and Shang-Chi will be in Doomsday)
Falcon and the Winter Solider (Strong start, weak finish. Cap 4 doesn't really work without it, though.)
Spider-Man: Far From Home (****ing abysmal, but I guess technically required viewing? You'd be better off watching a 10 minute summary on youtube)
The Eternals (Haven't watched it. Heard it was decent, but easily skipable other than the giant alien carcass that ends up in the ocean lol)
Spider-Man: No Way Home (Overhyped, but fun if you like the Raimi trilogy and/or the Garfield movies. I'd say watch it.)
Deadpool and Wolverine (decent enough, if you like Deadpool. I'd say watch it.)
Doctor Strange 2 (I thought it sucked, but I guess it was important enough that you should watch it.)
Hawkeye season 1 (Pretty bad. I'd say skip.)

Black Panther 2 (I couldn't finish it because Ironheart was on my nerves too bad. Need to buckle down and see it through someday.)
Thor 4 (Awful movie, but some people like Waititi I guess. Has zero impact on Guardians 3, so I say skip it unless you loved Ragnarok.)
Guardians Holiday Special (Really fun 45 minute special. Watch it this Decemeber!)
GOTG Vol. 3 (Good! Watch it.)
Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania (I hated it. And they changed direction with Kang, so you could probably skip this.)
Secret Invasion (I haven't seen it. Heard it was awful.)
The Marvels (I haven't seen it, but I might go for it soon. I hate Brie Larsen and don't like Ms. Marvel, but I do like Monica Rambeau and they did a good job casting her.)

Daredevil: Born Again season 1 (I liked it, mostly.)
Captain America 4 (I'm torn on this one. Wanted to like it but it's heavily flawed. It's honestly more of a sequel to Incredible Hulk from 2009 than anything lol. The new Falcon is so god damn annoying.)
Punisher: One Last Kill (Nothing special, but an easy watch.)
Daredevil: Born Again season 2 (Haven't seen it, heard it's bad.)
Thunderbolts (Really good! Definitely watch.)

Fantastic Four: First Steps (I loved it, must watch!)

That's basically everything on my radar between Endgame and BND.

[Andrew NDB]

Black Widow (Pretty good, necessary viewing)

If you consider Yelena an important part of everything.

Loki season 1 and 2 (Both very good, necessary viewing)

Agreed.

Shang-Chi (I liked it. Ties up some stuff from Iron-Man 3

Does it, though?

Falcon and the Winter Solider (Strong start, weak finish. Cap 4 doesn't really work without it, though.)

"How did Falcon become Captain America?" If that's a burning question to anyone then yeah, you should watch that awful show.


The Eternals (Haven't watched it. Heard it was decent, but easily skipable other than the giant alien carcass that ends up in the ocean lol)

Yeah, that gives us the MCU adamantium. Apparently.

Doctor Strange 2 (I thought it sucked, but I guess it was important enough that you should watch it.)

I don't remember one important thing happening in it that ought to matter in anything moving forward. Unless they bring back Captain Two Moms.

Ant-Man and The Wasp: Quantumania (I hated it. And they changed direction with Kang, so you could probably skip this.)

For some reason this didn't bother me nearly as much as it did others. I thought it was fine.

Secret Invasion (I haven't seen it. Heard it was awful.)

Oh yeah, that's bad. I wasn't really prepared for how bad it was.

The Marvels (I haven't seen it, but I might go for it soon. I hate Brie Larsen and don't like Ms. Marvel, but I do like Monica Rambeau and they did a good job casting her.)

Technically the mid-end credits bit could be considered essential. But that's all.


Thunderbolts (Really good! Definitely watch.)

Probably essential if you want to understand the current landscape of the Avengers vs. New Avengers, etc.. But that's about it.

Fantastic Four: First Steps (I loved it, must watch!)

I was hoping it would be a whole lot more essential but it's really just there as a "meet the Fantastic Four" movie. Galactus wasn't much of anything.

[ToTheNines]

"How did Falcon become Captain America?" If that's a burning question to anyone then yeah, you should watch that awful show.

That’s not even the important part. Basically the only meaningful emotional hook in Brave New World is the Isaiah Bradley stuff, which only makes sense if you’ve seen the show.

You can connect the dots obviously, but he’s just some old guy if you’re going into the movie blind.

[Andrew NDB]

That’s not even the important part. Basically the only meaningful emotional hook in Brave New World is the Isaiah Bradley stuff, which only makes sense if you’ve seen the show.

You can connect the dots obviously, but he’s just some old guy if you’re going into the movie blind.

Of course, if you don't watch Brave New World (and there really isn't much of a reason to) then the Isaiah Bradley stuff in that show doesn't make any difference. It'd be like saying, "You really need to watch The Marvels to understand and pay off of Kamala Khan's arc from the Disney+ Ms. Marvel show!" ORRR... you could just not see both and miss nothing.

[Coola Yagami]

For some reason this didn't bother me nearly as much as it did others. I thought it was fine.





Hated how they did MODOK there. That was one character that literally could have been just a CGI model of the comic book character instead of whatever the hell they did there. Like I get MODOK looks like a giant head with arms and legs, but it's a weird monsterous-looking head. Not just a regular person's head stretched in photoshop.

[Daytona]

Small nitpick but I didn’t like how Peter referred to Mac Gargan as “Scorpion”. It know they wanted to get his supervillain name out there but it felt a bit heavy handed. I don’t think Spider-Man would tend to his delusions like that. Even Peter’s a.i. referred to him as Scorpion which was also a bit strange.

I think Mac’s “scorpions are nocturnal” line would have been enough to establish his persona.

[Coola Yagami]

Small nitpick but I didn’t like how Peter referred to Mac Gargan as “Scorpion”. It know they wanted to get his supervillain name out there but it felt a bit heavy handed. I don’t think Spider-Man would tend to his delusions like that. Even Peter’s a.i. referred to him as Scorpion which was also a bit strange.

I think Mac’s “scorpions are nocturnal” line would have been enough to establish his persona.

True, but the movie acted as they fought a few times before. Spider-Man didn't act surprised he was in his new armor. The name must have stuck after a while.

[IMJ]

Sorry, still not interested. I am done with these massive shared universes.

It’s like finding a TV show that you really like only to find out that you have to watch a dozen other shows that you don’t care about or dislike in a certain viewing order. Otherwise, you’re going to be completely lost when a character you’ve been following gets killed, mutilated, or turned into a leprechaun because someone in a different office thought it was a good idea. And even if I wanted to, you’ve priced me out watching these things legally.

I also like to go outdoors every once in a while.

Most of the responses you got to this were exactly opposite of what you needed to go see this movie. Pretty much the only deeply relevant thing you "need" to have seen was the last Spider-Man flick. That's it.

Everyone already knows who "Hulk" is. Any developments with him were universal enough that they could have literally happened at any point in continuity. You need basically zero Hulk background to see this movie.
Anything involving the T.V. shows is unnecessary. The Hand in the movie are ninjas employed by the bad guys and a one-liner is written into the script that anyone with a brain can process well enough to be acceptable. The Punisher is in the movie and enough people know who that character is that you don't even remotely need to go watch his T.V. series.
Anything involving the new Black Widow is written into the script well enough that you understand who she basically is even without seeing the caricature of a movie that was "Black Widow".

As a matter of fact most of the continuity aspects of this movie might make you curious to go back and watch something rather than being "required" viewing.

[ranger_scout]

Part of me didn't want to go see this because of Mark Ruffalo; and I am most likely not going to see his Pixar movie next spring, but I was still curious to see what happened with Peter, MJ, and Ned. The movie was an emotional roller coaster ride for sure.

My best friend, who is a big Marvel fan, can't recall of Jean Grey ever had a sister in any version of X-Men. However, he didn't read the early comics where that storyline came from and he also didn't know about Madelyne Prior until he watched X-Men 97. He thinks that storyline should be adapted for the future X-Men movie that he hopes will include Sinister.

[Coola Yagami]

Apparently Sarah Grey did exist in the comics. She was killed by anti-mutant activists after speaking a little too loudly on behalf of mutants, so the movie got that kinda/sorta right. It was still anti-mutant people and not some super villain battle or whatever.

The Punisher thing is explained in the movie. They just happened to have an on-screem adventure. Spider-Man never appears on the Punisher show, so so there's no need to see it before seeing this movie.

I'm still a bit mixed on how the main antogonist was Jean Grey. In a Spider-Man movie. While the actual Spider-villains, Tombstone, Scorpion, etc were subplots or cameos.

Like imagine a Fantastic Four movie that shows quick news reports or whatever of them having defeated Mole Man and Puppet Master but the actual movie villain is a drunk Tony Stark going haywire with his armor on.

[Galactus]

The thing is these movies have kinda blown through most of Spider-Man's rogues. Granted, a good writer and director can make any villain interesting but really the likes of Shocker and Scorpion don't give off main villain energy.

The other option is that the do MCU versions of the likes of Doc Ock and Green Goblin which might be interesting, but I can see they maybe don't want to go with that in the movie immediately following No Way Home.

Using the one movie (outside of Avengers) that was practically guaranteed to be a huge hit to introduce mutants was probably the best way to set up the X-Men. You can also get a sense of which comics they are pulling from for their movie. The use of a random one-off villain like Metzger and teen Jean definitely gives the sense we are getting a First Class style movie with some shades of the characterizations from Bendis' All New X-Men. Not my preferred route to go with it, but I'll take it.

[Andrew NDB]

It's still stupid that there's no MCU Norman Osborne and no OsCorp.

[Daytona]

The next villains I’d like to see are Kraven, Chameleon, or Jackal.

Hobgoblin as well if we aren’t completely sick of goblins. There’s a lot you could do here with a mystery focused script.

Lastly I could get excited about Mysterio returning. I didn’t love his rendition in FFH but I do think there’s still potential there and enough time will have passed. In the end it doesn’t even *need* to be Quentin Beck reprising the role, if they want to go that route. Hell, I wouldn’t mind seeing Beck as the Hobgoblin when all is done and revealed. He’d sort of make sense.

Until we reach a potential Spider-Man 7 with Tom, I don’t have much desire to see the Osbornes again. Sure that’s a bit of a strange absence for typical Spider-Man but I’ve already accepted how different this version is. Almost like a multiverse legacy version of the character. The Osbornes have just been done to death in live-action while I feel there are other characters that can fill those general roles for now. It’s also a bit tricky bc Peter is now going to be a year or two past college so the youth friendship with Harry has already sailed.

[member_removed]

The thing is these movies have kinda blown through most of Spider-Man's rogues. Granted, a good writer and director can make any villain interesting but really the likes of Shocker and Scorpion don't give off main villain energy.

The other option is that the do MCU versions of the likes of Doc Ock and Green Goblin which might be interesting, but I can see they maybe don't want to go with that in the movie immediately following No Way Home.

Using the one movie (outside of Avengers) that was practically guaranteed to be a huge hit to introduce mutants was probably the best way to set up the X-Men. You can also get a sense of which comics they are pulling from for their movie. The use of a random one-off villain like Metzger and teen Jean definitely gives the sense we are getting a First Class style movie with some shades of the characterizations from Bendis' All New X-Men. Not my preferred route to go with it, but I'll take it.


I think it's safe to assume that Secret Wars will introduce Venom. I guess that's where TH-spidey-5 goes, whether or not they recycle Tom Hardy, I hope not.

[neatoman]

I wonder if they'll note of all of Jean's questionable actions in this movie and retcon this Jean into Madelyne Pryor being controlled by Mister Sinister?

[Coola Yagami]

I wonder if they'll note of all of Jean's questionable actions in this movie and retcon this Jean into Madelyne Pryor being controlled by Mister Sinister?

Maybe but they tried too hard to redeem her and make her come off as sympathetic near the end of the movie for them to turn around say 'nope! evil!'. Madelyne would not bother to keep Peter alive.

[Andrew NDB]

I would assume what we saw in Brand New Day will be the extent of Jean Grey's "evil" beginnings in the MCU.

[Coola Yagami]

I noticed the end said Spider-Man will return but not Spider-Man will return in Avengers Doomsday.

I don't recall seeing him in the trailers but it would be weird to not include him given that post credit scene.

It's been a while but I forgot if the Fantastic Four movie specifically mentioned Doomsday or just said 'they will return'.

[Andrew NDB]

I noticed the end said Spider-Man will return but not Spider-Man will return in Avengers Doomsday.

I don't recall seeing him in the trailers but it would be weird to not include him given that post credit scene.

It's been a while but I forgot if the Fantastic Four movie specifically mentioned Doomsday or just said 'they will return'.

Spider-Man not being in Doomsday but being in Secret Wars has been known for like a year now. The end credits scene is explaining not why Spider-Man will be in Doomsday but why Spider-Man will NOT be in Doomsday.

[Xav]

Lastly I could get excited about Mysterio returning. I didn’t love his rendition in FFH but I do think there’s still potential there and enough time will have passed. In the end it doesn’t even *need* to be Quentin Beck reprising the role, if they want to go that route. Hell, I wouldn’t mind seeing Beck as the Hobgoblin when all is done and revealed. He’d sort of make sense.I think Spider-Man has a big enough rogues gallery that you don't need to resurrect dead villains.

[Coola Yagami]

Spider-Man not being in Doomsday but being in Secret Wars has been known for like a year now. The end credits scene is explaining not why Spider-Man will be in Doomsday but why Spider-Man will NOT be in Doomsday.

So I guess we'll find out he was stuck on Battle World or wherever the whole time whenever we get to Secret Wars?

[IMJ]

The most recent recap of Doomsday is that his Spider-Man pops up near the end of the movie after being recruited by Deadpool offscreen....

[Stu_Padasso]

Well, it turns out the leprechaun is a mass murdering, mind raping Jean Grey. Appropriate considering that she’s a redhead, I suppose. I know that the X-Men have been portrayed as murderous @$$holes since at least the Messiah Trilogy, but it seems that Disney and Sony want a head start.

Oh well. Enjoy your crossover slop. Maybe if you’re lucky Donald Duck and Howard the Duck will get into a fistfight and you can argue about it on the playground.

Meanwhile I’m done with everything Marvel. Movies. Comics. Everything.

[neatoman]

Anyone thinking Damage Control might just be a front for Weapon X or something? It's not the first time the MCU would do something like that.

[Coola Yagami]

Anyone thinking Damage Control might just be a front for Weapon X or something? It's not the first time the MCU would do something like that.

Actually, that could be. They were trying to use mutants as weapons after all.

[ranger_scout]

Sadie Sink did an interview about her part in the film and the future might hold for her character.

https://ew.com/sadie-sink-talks-jean-grey-marvel-future-x-men-after-spider-man-brand-new-day-12035221

[ranger_scout]

With Mr. Sinister being the villain in the upcoming X-Men movie, it is believed that Jean Grey we saw in this Spider-Man film might actually have been her clone Madelyne Pryor.

X-Men: Adam Driver’s Mister Sinister Can Fix the MCU’s Jean Grey Problem (https://www.comingsoon.net/movies/features/2177559-x-men-adam-drivers-mister-sinister-can-fix-the-mcus-jean-grey-problem)

[neatoman]

With Mr. Sinister being the villain in the upcoming X-Men movie, it is believed that Jean Grey we saw in this Spider-Man film might actually have been her clone Madelyne Pryor.

X-Men: Adam Driver’s Mister Sinister Can Fix the MCU’s Jean Grey Problem (https://www.comingsoon.net/movies/features/2177559-x-men-adam-drivers-mister-sinister-can-fix-the-mcus-jean-grey-problem)

... Ah... So I'm not the only one?

[Andrew NDB]

Anyone thinking Damage Control might just be a front for Weapon X or something? It's not the first time the MCU would do something like that.

Maybe. Also, what was in all of those jars they saw on the upper levels?

[ranger_scout]

Well, it turns out the leprechaun is a mass murdering, mind raping Jean Grey. Appropriate considering that she’s a redhead, I suppose. I know that the X-Men have been portrayed as murderous @$$holes since at least the Messiah Trilogy, but it seems that Disney and Sony want a head start.



Like neatoman and I have been saying, she might not actually have been Jean Grey, but her clone Madelyne Pryor since Mr. Sinister is going to be the villain in the X-Men film.

Maybe but they tried too hard to redeem her and make her come off as sympathetic near the end of the movie for them to turn around say 'nope! evil!'. Madelyne would not bother to keep Peter alive.

Madelyne was redeemed in just one episode of X-Men: 97 after being evil for the majority of it.

[IMJ]

Curious that no one is speculating that the "Spider Mutation" nonsense wasn't actually the symbiote only be revealed in Secret Wars fully.

After all, we know that a chunk of it was left in the MCU from the Tom Hardy flick.....

Peter's eyes turn black, he gets stronger, etc. More like hints that the symbiote is already there for a Secret Wars reveal than the Spider-Mutation.

[Andrew NDB]

Curious that no one is speculating that the "Spider Mutation" nonsense wasn't actually the symbiote only be revealed in Secret Wars fully.

After all, we know that a chunk of it was left in the MCU from the Tom Hardy flick.....

Peter's eyes turn black, he gets stronger, etc. More like hints that the symbiote is already there for a Secret Wars reveal than the Spider-Mutation.

Maybe. Though you'd think that Damage Control scanner he went through would be like "Alien DNA detected" instead of just seeing his arachnid DNA. I think like most of the latest end credits scenes in MCU movies, it'll probably end up being disregarded and we'll meet the "real" Venom symbiote in Secret Wars.

Like neatoman and I have been saying, she might not actually have been Jean Grey, but her clone Madelyne Pryor

Yeah, zero chance. And for several reasons. For one, they wouldn't botch Jean Grey's introduction in Spider-Man: Brand New Day by revealing it later on to not even be an introduction at all. People would be pissed. For others, the MCU has so far avoided convolutions like "here's a clone of so-and-so" so I wouldn't see them starting that practice now, especially when the MCU is at its lowest and they're hard-pressed to get anyone into theaters for their movies (Spider-Man aside).

[Andrew NDB]

Holy moley. 2.2 billion worldwide with 850 million just domestically. It's already made more than Endgame domestically (and may even surpass it worldwide if this keeps up) and has passed No Way Home.

I think we can forget about "superhero fatigue." There's just "bad superhero movie" fatigue. Also, there's no way a new Punisher TV show or movie doesn't come out of this. They'd be insane not to.

[Coola Yagami]

Holy moley. 2.2 billion worldwide with 850 million just domestically. It's already made more than Endgame domestically (and may even surpass it worldwide if this keeps up) and has passed No Way Home.

I think we can forget about "superhero fatigue." There's just "bad superhero movie" fatigue. Also, there's no way a new Punisher TV show or movie doesn't come out of this. They'd be insane not to.

That's what I always say. It's 'bad superhero movie fatigue' because whenever an actual good movie comes out, it does gangbusters.

Not to mention that you just know that each and every one of these 'superhero fatique' naysayers will the same people that will be buying front row tickets to see Avengers Doomsday.

[Andrew NDB]

Which isn't to say damage hasn't been done to audiences' good faith. Kevin Feige's "it' all connected" was great until we started getting all these MCU projects that we didn't like and didn't want to be connected.

[Galactus]

It's still stupid that there's no MCU Norman Osborne and no OsCorp.

That's easily fixable. Either Oscorp didn't exist during No Way Home or it did under another name. If they want to use Norman Osborn and his company they can have another firm re-branded as Oscorp. Imagine a press conference were Norman and Harry have returned from Europe "...we are reclaiming our family legacy and that's why henceforth our company will be known as Oscorp".


That's what I always say. It's 'bad superhero movie fatigue' because whenever an actual good movie comes out, it does gangbusters.

Not to mention that you just know that each and every one of these 'superhero fatique' naysayers will the same people that will be buying front row tickets to see Avengers Doomsday.

I'm not sure I agree. Thunderbolts is generally regarded as a good movie by people who watched it, as much as I don't care for them not actually using more Thunderbolts characters, I'd agree it's one of the better mcu entries and yet it did nothing. Fantastic Four: First Steps, and James's Gunn's Superman were both pretty well recieved but they are moderate successes at best. Blue Beetle and Supergirl were decent enough movies that would have made a nice profit pre-2020 and Aquaman 2 and The Marvels were sequels to two billion dollar movies, you'd think that would have brought them some goodwill.

I think we have fatigue for superhero movies that aren't the A-List characters that nearly everyone wants to see. (Spider-Man, Batman, Deadpool, Wolverine etc). I don't think they even have to be that good. If we're being honest none of the Avengers movies have been that good to warrant the huge money they make. It's just we still like the concept of big All Star team ups. I think it kinda sucks that it means both Marvel and DC will take less chances with what they greenlight, but I think that's the state we're in.

[Prowler]

I've finally watched it at the cinema earlier this night.

I liked the movie overall, even though Jean Grey of all people, as the main villain of a Spider-Man movie who turned out not to be a bad girl after all, was an odd choice. I mean, Jean as a villain, really? I guess it's because her powers can be quite dangerous in an antagonist. Having said that, what would Cyclops, Xavier and the rest of the X-Men think about what Jean did?

The way Peter Parker forgave her and let her redeem herself felt a little forced. But the villain turned out to be Metzger all along anyway.

I didn't watch the prequel, so I was confused about how Mary Jane forgot about Peter. I googled the explanation and now I know. Why did she keep referring to herself as MJ instead of Mary Jane, though? What, is there a licensing issue or something? That can't be.

Peter rage baiting Frank was pretty funny. I liked their dynamic.

[Andrew NDB]

That's easily fixable. Either Oscorp didn't exist during No Way Home or it did under another name. If they want to use Norman Osborn and his company they can have another firm re-branded as Oscorp. Imagine a press conference were Norman and Harry have returned from Europe "...we are reclaiming our family legacy and that's why henceforth our company will be known as Oscorp".

If only they'd do something like that. I suspect it's just Marvel not wanting to do OsCorp and Norman Osborne and all of that if they have to keep making a special deal with Sony but surely they could come up with some amicable arrangement? The same with Kingpin, if that's even true about him not able to appear in Marvel movies.


I didn't watch the prequel, so I was confused about how Mary Jane forgot about Peter. I googled the explanation and now I know. Why did she keep referring to herself as MJ instead of Mary Jane, though? What, is there a licensing issue or something? That can't be.

I don't think MJ has ever said her full name is "Mary Jane" in the Spider-Man movies. Which initially gave hope that it wasn't actually a cheap race swap and somewhere down the line we'd meet the "Real" MJ, but it never happened and is clearly never going to happen now.

[Prowler]

If only they'd do something like that. I suspect it's just Marvel not wanting to do OsCorp and Norman Osborne and all of that if they have to keep making a special deal with Sony but surely they could come up with some amicable arrangement? The same with Kingpin, if that's even true about him not able to appear in Marvel movies.



I don't think MJ has ever said her full name is "Mary Jane" in the Spider-Man movies. Which initially gave hope that it wasn't actually a cheap race swap and somewhere down the line we'd meet the "Real" MJ, but it never happened and is clearly never going to happen now.
Yeah, race swapping Mary Jane makes zero sense. I agree.

Not in a single movie? Not even in those Toby Maguire movies? It's been ages since I last saw those, so I no longer remember.

[Andrew NDB]

Not in a single movie? Not even in those Toby Maguire movies? It's been ages since I last saw those, so I no longer remember.

I only mean in the Tom Holland Spider-Man movies. The Zendaya MJ. I don't think her initials have ever been revealed as "Mary Jane" in them.

[ToTheNines]

Her name is Michelle Jones. She went by Michelle all through Homecoming. The MJ thing is just a stupid wink/nod.

[Prowler]

Her name is Michelle Jones. She went by Michelle all through Homecoming. The MJ thing is just a stupid wink/nod.

Ah OK, that makes sense. Still, she could at least have introduced herself to Peter at the party as "I'm Michelle Jones. But my friends call me MJ." instead of just "I'm MJ". And yes, I know some people go by peculiar nicknames to the point of it taking a while for people to know what their actual names are. I was 18-22 years old not that long ago yet. :lol:

[Andrew NDB]

Her name is Michelle Jones. She went by Michelle all through Homecoming.

Totally forgot that.

[Prowler]

Why did they change her name from Mary Jane to Michelle Jones, anyway?

[ToTheNines]

Why did they change her name from Mary Jane to Michelle Jones, anyway?

They're walking the tightrope of race-swapping a classic character with rabid fanboys while also being able to say "TECHNICALLY we didn't make Mary Jane black, so you little racists better not get mad at us!"

It's paid off, it seems. I don't know if Zendaya's presence makes or breaks these movies, but people certainly like seeing her and Holland in films together.

[Prowler]

They're walking the tightrope of race-swapping a classic character with rabid fanboys while also being able to say "TECHNICALLY we didn't make Mary Jane black, so you little racists better not get mad at us!"

It's paid off, it seems. I don't know if Zendaya's presence makes or breaks these movies, but people certainly like seeing her and Holland in films together.
Yeah, that seems to add up...

I don't know that either. Maybe she's a very popular actress among the youth these days. I still have to remind myself that Scarlett Johansson is no longer 22 years old.

Apparently her and Tom Holland married earlier this year...

This whole race-swapping thing is stupid. Just create new characters instead. Don't mess with long-established characters. They haven't swapped the likes of Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent and Peter Parker yet because that would have way too scandalous, even for them.

The funny thing is, I don't think most non-white people even care about this stuff much. Just like people outside of Japan don't care that most anime/manga characters are Japanese. I've never seen my fellow Europeans whining that more anime/manga should have white/European characters. So this whole idea that "people can only identify with characters that look like them" seems rather flawed and reductive to me. I think ninja turtle fans of all people should know to look past that.

[Andrew NDB]

Why did they change her name from Mary Jane to Michelle Jones, anyway?

Technically they didn't change her name, because it's not the same character. Like, she's not. The only thing in common with the real MJ is the nickname "MJ." I don't see the Zendaya MJ going into the world of supermodeling or anything like that, for example.

They're walking the tightrope of race-swapping a classic character with rabid fanboys while also being able to say "TECHNICALLY we didn't make Mary Jane black, so you little racists better not get mad at us!"

Correct. Though initially I gave them the benefit of the doubt, like, "No no no, but REALLY, at some point we'll get the REAL Mary Jane. Relax, guys. She's coming, we're just not getting her straight away." And maybe that was even the original plan but then they didn't want to mess up what was then a winning formula, post-Homecoming.

This whole race-swapping thing is stupid. Just create new characters instead.

Technically they would say that they did. Michelle Jones is not Mary Jane and Mary Jane is not Michelle Jones. But it's really an insidious way of going about it, when you think about it.

[Coola Yagami]

Technically they didn't change her name, because it's not the same character. Like, she's not. The only thing in common with the real MJ is the nickname "MJ." I don't see the Zendaya MJ going into the world of supermodeling or anything like that, for example.




Very true. MJ was turning down jobs because they weren't woke enough. That version would never go into modeling due to male gaze and female objectification and all that jazz. Plus she was never shown to even have a passing interest in acting.

[Barkworm]

For Feige’s part, he wanted to tread carefully by underlining the fact that Zendaya is still playing a character named Michelle and not Mary Jane Watson. However, he will at least agree that calling Zendaya’s character an MJ of a different name does underscore she will have some similarities to comicdom’s most famous redhead.

“In setting up this will be a very different thing, she’s not Mary Jane Watson, that’s not who the character is.” Feige tells me. “But giving her the initials that remind you of that dynamic certainly is intriguing about what could go forward.”

https://web.archive.org/web/20170708074112/http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/spider-man/266148/spider-man-homecoming-ending-kevin-feige-talks-some-surprises

[ToTheNines]

“We’re terrified of the backlash, but we’re doing it anyway. Please don’t be mad at us.”

[Prowler]

Very true. MJ was turning down jobs because they weren't woke enough. That version would never go into modeling due to male gaze and female objectification and all that jazz. Plus she was never shown to even have a passing interest in acting.

She was? IIRC, she turned down a job because she didn't want to work for a soulless company. That could mean a lot of things. From the company only caring about profit and not about its workers or the quality of its products, not caring about the environment, etc.

[Coola Yagami]

She was? IIRC, she turned down a job because she didn't want to work for a soulless company. That could mean a lot of things. From the company only caring about profit and not about its workers or the quality of its products, not caring about the environment, etc.

I mean... that's all companies, unless MJ wants to work for some small mom and pop shop, but that probably won't pay enough to help with the bills.

MJ is pretty feminist/woke, and her taking company morals over helping with rent, which looked like Ned was barely making it on his own, fits with her character.

[Andrew NDB]

If you're someone honestly walking around worrying about "working for a soulless company" then that more than likely means you're calibrated a certain way.

[Prowler]

I mean... that's all companies, unless MJ wants to work for some small mom and pop shop, but that probably won't pay enough to help with the bills.

MJ is pretty feminist/woke, and her taking company morals over helping with rent, which looked like Ned was barely making it on his own, fits with her character.

Well, yeah :lol:.

Maybe she is. Again, I didn't watch the prequel, so maybe that's why I'm missing some context behind her character.

If you're someone honestly walking around worrying about "working for a soulless company" then that more than likely means you're calibrated a certain way.

It's the kind of naivety that can be found in people under a certain age. But I think MJ was already getting old enough to let go of such mentality.

I'm surprised you didn't complain about Black Widow asking Spider-Man if he had a girlfriend... or a boyfriend.

[Coola Yagami]

Well, yeah :lol:.

Maybe she is. Again, I didn't watch the prequel, so maybe that's why I'm missing some context behind her character.



To an extent, but she knows how to tone it down in front of her friends. I mostly recall in the last movie when Pete and MJ were an official couple, Pete commented on how beautiful she looked, and she said 'oh so therefore I have value?'. Peter fumbled a bit before she said she was just messing with him.


I'm surprised you didn't complain about Black Widow asking Spider-Man if he had a girlfriend... or a boyfriend.

I think in that case, she was teasing him and purposely making him as uncomfortable as possible.

[Stu_Padasso]

Why did they change her name from Mary Jane to Michelle Jones, anyway?

*Takes a huge drag out of a joint *

Whut?

[Galactus]

MJ is a composite character made of several of Peter Parker's love interests from the comics. Most notably Mary Jane of course, the modern portrayals of Gwen Stacy and Michelle Gonzales. That was a big thing online for a while. What love interest is Zendaya playing? Turns out it was kinda all of them.

The dry humour and fascination with Peter in the first two movies most resembled Michalle Gonzales but No Way Home stated the characters full name is Michelle Jones Watson, implying she doesn't use her father's surname as she comes from a broken home and has issues there like comic book Mary Jane. I think going forward, that's the character's main inspiration.

[Andrew NDB]

Something that was pointed out that I find interesting: Frank was never once in the movie called or referred to by anyone as "The Punisher." Only as "Frank."

What do we suppose that's all about? Chineese stuff? Some kind of censorship?

[Stu_Padasso]

Something that was pointed out that I find interesting: Frank was never once in the movie called or referred to by anyone as "The Punisher." Only as "Frank."

What do we suppose that's all about? Chineese stuff? Some kind of censorship?

Haven’t you heard? The Punisher is a symbol of the alt-right or something.

Personally, I think having Frank Castle in a Spider-Man movie is like having Paul Kersey from Death Wish in a Superman movie.

I can’t wait for the Battlestar Galactica / Star Wars crossover. Grounded hard science fiction versus wizards in space.

[Coola Yagami]

Haven’t you heard? The Punisher is a symbol of the alt-right or something.

Personally, I think having Frank Castle in a Spider-Man movie is like having Paul Kersey from Death Wish in a Superman movie.



True but those two do team up a lot. Even in the current comics he can't seem to leave the spider people alone. He's currently in both the current Spider-Man and Black Cat comics.

[IMJ]

Haven’t you heard? The Punisher is a symbol of the alt-right or something.

Personally, I think having Frank Castle in a Spider-Man movie is like having Paul Kersey from Death Wish in a Superman movie.

I can’t wait for the Battlestar Galactica / Star Wars crossover. Grounded hard science fiction versus wizards in space.

I think it worked out pretty well actually. Better than I would have guessed ahead of time....

[Autbot_Benz]

Haven’t you heard? The Punisher is a symbol of the alt-right or something.

Personally, I think having Frank Castle in a Spider-Man movie is like having Paul Kersey from Death Wish in a Superman movie.

I can’t wait for the Battlestar Galactica / Star Wars crossover. Grounded hard science fiction versus wizards in space.

No the alt right maga bastardize his skull logo with American flag version on their pickup trucks. The sad thing is Frank would hate the alt right.

[Andrew NDB]

No the alt right maga bastardize his skull logo with American flag version on their pickup trucks.

Conservatives and military were doing that long before Trump was ever even running in 2016, weren't they? That was going on at least as far back as either of the Iraq wars.

I personally have always thought it's a LITTLE silly, in the same way kids around middle and high school would wear those "NO FEAR" T-shirts. Anybody remember those? They weren't fooling anybody then and just putting on a skull T-shirt now doesn't seem terribly much different to me.

Though what is far sillier to me is the left's rage about people adopting the Punisher skull symbol as some kind of case for why the Punisher's skull symbol has to change. Not as bad, still, as the editors who went, "You know what? You're right! Let's change it."

The sad thing is Frank would hate the alt right.

But you think he'd have a lot of love for the far left? How? You think he'd be OK with his kids getting transed if they were still alive? Open borders, maybe?

[Prowler]

Something that was pointed out that I find interesting: Frank was never once in the movie called or referred to by anyone as "The Punisher." Only as "Frank."

What do we suppose that's all about? Chineese stuff? Some kind of censorship?
Why would it be? Admittedly, it is a little strange that he only gets referred to as "Frank" and it took me a while to realise he was The Punisher in the movie (I'm not a big comic buff).

[Autbot_Benz]

Something that was pointed out that I find interesting: Frank was never once in the movie called or referred to by anyone as "The Punisher." Only as "Frank."

What do we suppose that's all about? Chineese stuff? Some kind of censorship?

No the skull looking terrible in brand new day is the Chinese’s censorship from what I heard

[Andrew NDB]

Why would it be? Admittedly, it is a little strange that he only gets referred to as "Frank"

I'm honestly not sure. By this point in-story he's been the Punisher for at LEAST 7-8 years, considering he began before the Blip and he was known as that early on. Though for the sake of his repeated re-findings of the motivation to be the Punisher (in Punisher season 1, at the end of Punisher season 2, in Daredevil: Born Again season 1, and yet again in "One More Kill") I would assume he did get Blipped otherwise it's even more stupid than it would be otherwise.

Maybe formally acknowledging someone killing criminals is "Punishing" them was decided to be in bad taste by some Marvel or Sony group?

[ToTheNines]

He’s been Punisher for roughly 13 years in the MCU.

I looked it up and apparently he did survive the snap.

[Autbot_Benz]

He’s been Punisher for roughly 13 years in the MCU.

I looked it up and apparently he did survive the snap.

Even the snap didn’t wanna **** with the punisher :lol:

[CyberCubed]

EDIT: It's one streaming now. Re-posted.

I think it's my favorite of the 4 Spider-man movies of the MCU.

[CyberCubed]

So the movie is out on streaming so I watched it for free on the illegal streaming sites, I didn't see this one in theaters so this is my first time.

I really liked it. There was far less typical "Marvel humor" in this than previous movies, the dialogue didn't make me roll my eyes and a lot of the sarcastic humor (mostly from Frank) worked really well. As mentioned it felt like a "grown up" Spider-man world and I liked that a lot.

The overall plot was really good, I enjoyed Peter struggling with his powers, trying to reconnect with MJ and Ned, and how it tied into Jean Grey. Punisher/Frank was great in every scene he was in, his actor is the best in the MCU right now. I also enjoyed how the climax of the movie wasn't one big epic set-piece or showdown like usual, just Spiderman fighting some ninjas and then a talk with Jean Grey.

Jean Grey herself was great, I liked her in Stranger Things and she did great here. I didn't know she could teleport into peoples minds like that, unless that's new. It really proves also how if Jean Grey never met Prof. X (eventually) she'd become a full blown villain. Can't wait to see the X-men and the new Charles. Punisher shooting Peter was nice too, because it shows how flawed he is.

Now for some negatives or things I was mixed on:

- Hulk was kinda just there in the movie to give an action sequence in the middle. I didn't dislike his inclusion, but if all we saw was Banner at the school at the beginning that would have been fine with me. I mean it's just another Hulk brawl, and it was over quickly enough.

- Yelena is so fat. I have no idea how anyone finds her attractive. She looked so fat in the pool scene, literally gross. I wouldn't touch her with a 37 and a half foot pole.

- Michael Mando got SCREWED as Scorpion. Back in 2017 he had been waiting 9 years to play Scorpion in a movie, and all he gets is a brief montage at the beginning and then a fight scene where he's possessed by Jean Grey and not even himself? Man his actor must be pissed, imagine waiting 9 years to get two minor scenes in a movie. I laughed when I realized "that was it?" for his role once we got toward the end of the movie.

- I liked seeing Aunt May again, but man Marisa Tomei really aged in the last decade. Back in 2017 she still looked hot and young enough, now you can tell she's visibly aged. Man females age so bad once they get older, such a shame as she was beautiful in the 90's.

- I enjoyed the Peter/MJ scenes and with Ned, them regaining their memories is fine with me.


I think it's my favorite of the 4 Spider-man movies of the MCU.

[Coola Yagami]

- Yelena is so fat. I have no idea how anyone finds her attractive. She looked so fat in the pool scene, literally gross. I wouldn't touch her with a 37 and a half foot pole.



If you're not gonna play, pass the controller!!

[CyberCubed]

If that pool scene was meant to be sexy, they failed in just about every way. I was so grossed out, she is fat and not attractive at all. She also has this greasy/slimy quality to her I can't describe, like the fat chick you'd see shopping at Walmart or something.

We have attractive actress in the movies, Jean Grey is very pretty for a 22 year old, Zendaya looked better than she ever did especially now that she's older, etc. But Yelena is so fat and gross.

[Autbot_Benz]

If that pool scene was meant to be sexy, they failed in just about every way. I was so grossed out, she is fat and not attractive at all. She also has this greasy/slimy quality to her I can't describe, like the fat chick you'd see shopping at Walmart or something.

We have attractive actress in the movies, Jean Grey is very pretty for a 22 year old, Zendaya looked better than she ever did especially now that she's older, etc. But Yelena is so fat and gross.

Omg shut the **** up cubed Florence Pugh is not fat at all.

https://i.imgur.com/BhTGSSC.jpeg

This isn’t fat

[CyberCubed]

She looks better there, but in the movies she just has this bloated look to her. The pool scene was so awkward, I got second hand embarrassment watching it since the filmakers probably intended that scene to be sexy (like Peter swimming with her nude?), but I just cringed through the whole scene.

[Andrew NDB]

She's hot, but she's definitely "unapologetically bloated." Which is fine. It just means she looks like most people do after a weekend of hard drinking and eating a bunch of salty food.

[CyberCubed]

I must be getting old too, because despite Saddie Sink being 24 years old and thus being legal...she literally looks like a kid to me. Granted they all look young (Tom and Zendaya are both 30 years old in real life but can pass for early 20's too), but man, I guess this is what it feels when you get around 40 and now even 20 year olds look like kids to you. Almost feels wrong to find her attractive (which she is) until she gets a few more years on her.

Also ironic that she would have made a great Mary Jane if she was older back in 2017 (obviously she was too young back then as an actress). She really does look like MJ, would have been perfect if she and Tom were the same age back then. Zendaya is great but I still don't see her as MJ.

[IMJ]

I feel like it was Michael Cera and Shia Laboeuf who ushered in the era of "kids not men" movie stars.

I will say that at least in this movie, 30-year old Tom Holland had the impressive build of a "man" and not a "kid".

[Daytona]

This movie was pretty good but not great. It’s still a garage pop punk album compared to Raimi’s “Blond” by Frank Ocean or Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness.

The only big weakness now is the script. It’s crazy to me they put so much effort into overhauling this series by coming in a more mature and tangible vision but kept the same weak screenwriters. Visuals are pretty good, direction is arguably great, acting is…solid. Hopefully new script writers for the next film and we can see a truly great Spider-Man movie again.

[CyberCubed]

Huh, I just realized J. Jonah Jameson wasn't in this movie and I didn't even think about it till now. Peter wasn't being hounded by the press in this movie, seems like something that would have fit when he was being attacked on the street and then shot at the end while he was in the hospital.

It's kinda sad, we still don't have a movie for Spider-man as a whole. This movie had Jean Grey (X-men), Hulk, Yelena, and Punisher, with only 1 other core Spider-man character (Scorpion) in a a decent role not counting MJ. Really weird how we could have finally got a solo Spider-man movie yet we still have other Avengers/X-men throw in here constantly.

[Andrew NDB]

Huh, I just realized J. Jonah Jameson wasn't in this movie and I didn't even think about it till now. Peter wasn't being hounded by the press in this movie, seems like something that would have fit when he was being attacked on the street and then shot at the end while he was in the hospital.

Definitely that was a missed opportunity. They didn't even need to be long. Just little bits of him throughout. Like when Spider-Man goes a little nuts and injures the cop inside the cop car? Cut to J. Jonah Jameson talking about what a menace Spider-Man is, etc..