Almost halfway through Mirage, VOl.1... my thoughts...

[Lone Wolf]

I just finished "Down by the River", issues 25-27. It was total crap. I don't like the "Ren and Stimpified" joke issues either by Mark Martin, but they were better than this pretentious, bloated overlong piece of nonsensical garbage. Yeah, Volume 1 has had some great high points; I, of course, loved Return to New York and issues 1-12.13 was one of the better filler issues. The little "side stories" with Justice Force and the Brass Cow, were decent, but I didn't really laugh much. Then more Mark Martin crap. 17 was fun but felt like a waste of time (and a very generic story. I've read Lone Wolf and cub; what a cute homage. It's still unoriginal and boring), but 18 I actually thought was a great filler issue. Funny, but great art and action, and the characters all remained true to themselves. Felt a lot like the new toon.

Return to New York was fantastic.

Down By the River was garbage, and a REAL downer after reading Return to New York.

Opinion so far: The first 27 issues certainly don't represent the "rich and bountiful" VOl.1 I had heard so much about. Why all the substitute creators? and couldn't they get anyone better than Mark Martin and Rick Levigne? Mark Martin I actually think is tolerable every 15 issues or so, but this is just too much. So far, TMNT has as many misses as hits. I hope it gets better; with 12 issues until City at War, I'm hoping things will pick up.

Maybe someone more knowledgeable of Vol.1 could enlighten me as too why certain creative decisions were made?

[Karpo_007]

Most people think River is one of the best arcs. Also most people hate Mark Martin's work. Issues 1-21 and 50-63 have definetly the best TMNT stories ever told. Well not that there would be any real competition outside Mirage and Volume 2 and 4 don't quite reach that level. But opinions differ, not everyone is going to like it.

As for the question why there are so many guest artists, I don't really know. A good guess would be the fact that when the cartoon became popular and toys strated selling, they made money without lifting a finger.

[Roseangelo]

As for the question why there are so many guest artists, I don't really know. A good guess would be the fact that when the cartoon became popular and toys strated selling, they made money without lifting a finger.

No... Mirage Studios was Kevin and Peter's business, and with all the marketing going on it took a lot of time to run that business. They simply didn't have the time necessary to do the comic themselves. So they gave other independant artists a shot. Some missed, some were great.

Most of the stuff you're complaining about I enjoy. It's just personal preference.

[Karpo_007]

Well with the old cartoon and toys they just pretty much aproved all the new prdocuts and thats it. Of course there were other things that too their time, but I have always tough they just wanted to have a few years break.

[Lone Wolf]

Well, different strokes I guess... but Down by the River is REALLY considered one of the best arcs? Ugh...

<Long winded complaint>

Didn't Raph's joking around at the beginning of issue one seem totally out of character? I kept seeing Mikey in his place. Raph scared of a leech? Come on. Playing jokes on his brothers? Hey Rick, have you ever actually read TMNT?

Leonardo did not act like a leader at all. If anything he was a generic mouthpiece and Donatello was the fill in leader in this arc. What the hell?

And the whole "The Master focuses" stuff I thought was very weakly written. It definately sounded like an artist trying to pass off as a writer to me. For good depictions of transcendant plot devices, see issue 9. This came off as trite Hallmark Haiku rejections.

The whole Bloodsucker name seemed really, reall forced, as if they were trying to move action figures or something. " Look out, its BLOODSUCKER!" Bum Bum Bum... And why is he talking like a regular New York citizen? Did he absorb Raphs memories, perspective and vocabulary as well? Why doesn't he know Ninjitsu then?

That Bodder guy was just a joke. A totally 2 dimensional evil big business looney. " ITS ALL MINE MINE MINE!" Yawn.

And the book tries to get away with a "save the environment" hook at the end with the three kids (who suddenly look at the overflow of fallout that they managed to miss the past decade plus of their lives) and come to the brilliant conclusion that "adults must be pretty dumb to let things get like this"; how beautiful. Ninja Turtles III did a better job of making the environment a sympathetic character.This was cornier than Captain Planet. Also both the Indian and the River guy are both portrayed as flip sides of Bodder through the great lengths they are willing to go to protect the lake (The Indian betrays his new Turtle friends, then allows the one he called master to die, the river guy attempts to destroy a natural phenomenon like the turtles just to understand it, and has lied to the Indian just because he feared a loss of power) , like the evils of the environment taking precedence over life, (a whole balance thing) but again, this was never explored. As it was, everything happened so quickly I was left with a WTF feeling at the end of almost every page.

It was so over-the-top and fast paced, the new characters were cardboard cutouts, the Turtles were so grossly mischaracterized, and the message of the story was so forced and and contrived, I felt like Eastman and Laird ought to have considered seeing if Mark Martin wasn't too busy those months. It least he's consistent in his wackiness; this guy was all over the place. WTF is this River guy supposed to be? You show some magic dude in a few panels and I'm supposed to believe it?

Am I the ONLY one that thought this guy put (a weirded out) version of TMNT into a Captain Planet script?

</long winded complaint>

And so no one knows exactly why E and L published Martins crazy ass stories?

[Karpo_007]

Since E&L weren't doing TMNT stories themselfs, they gave other artists a chance to present their view's of the TMNT. Thats why they might seem out of character. Most guest artist issues are not considered being part of the "Canon".

[Donatello]

yeah, return to NY was the best of the series. i read em all. i disliked when they lost track too, but the made up with CAW,, wait for that, they're amazing,

oh and karpo, are you up to vol4 yet?

[Karpo_007]

Yeah, I finished volume 2 in March.

[Donatello]

how do ya like it? alot of people complain about the lack of action

i personally love it, a thoughtful mellow series makes sense for older turtles

[Karpo_007]

Natrually it doesn't quire reach the level of Vol. 1, but it's very good indeed. The well tought stories do make up for the lack of action.

[Donatello]

agreed, things should prove interesting with don's new storyarc(considering he's my favorite), but i don't wanna hijack this thread, we've done that in the past,

so, lone wolf, stick it out, they're no to bad before CAW, in fact i thought the shogun shoate issues were some of the better, non-continuity ones

[kicknz]

I will comment on the issues you've read so far, in clumps. The first 10 issues or so are probably my favorite stretch of any series ever. I hope you read the 'Raphael', 'Michaelangelo', 'Donatello' and 'Leonardo' micro-series one-shots back when you were reading those issues. For one thing, they belong to that same era and, secondly, they fit into the continuity of those issues.

#11-15 are pretty great, too, but definitely not as magical as the first 10 issues. The great art style is still there, but the stories just aren't as kick-ass.

#16,22,23 I like Mark Martin a lot, just not so much on a TMNT comic. I would have preferred for these issues (and many others) to have been published as separate mini-series or something.

#17 by Eric Talbot is great. I'm not sure why people get so caught up in the stories in a comic (no offense intended). Comics are all about the ART i.e. being called 'sequential art'. The story is just that icing that can make the experience that much better. And #17 has GREAT art. Why the hell didn't Eric Talbot and some of the other Mirage guys do more comic work? It really frustrates me.

#18 by Eastman/Talbot/Bode - The first Mirage TMNT comic I ever bought (the color re-release). Even though it's quite goofy and cartoonish, it's got those hardcore inks by Eastman and Talbot that give it that Mirage feel and some BADASS fights.

#19-21 DUH!

#24-26 "The River" - I agree, I'm not wild about these issues. This could have been a one-issue story and the art, except for his interpretation of the Turtles, is pretty generic.

#27 A strong filler issue with cool characters.

Have you been reading the "Tales of the TMNT" comics, too? They're all self-contained and some of them are follow-ups to regular series issues and some of them introduce characters later appear in the regular series (Nobody, Rat King, Leatherhead!).

The original 'Turtle Soup' one-shot and 'The Fugitoid' one-shot came out during this period, too.

I hope I didn't just type a bunch of crap you were already well aware of. If so, maybe I educated someone else with it.

[Aztec General]

I'll give my thoughts on the TMNT continuity. Why stop at Vol. 1? I'm going by the most recent continuity list by Dan Berger (I'm still eagerly waiting for Laird's long promised continuity timeline). I'll group them together by story as much as possible.

TMNT Vol. 1
#1-11 (Including the 5 one shots)- Top notch. We get introduced to the characters, discover their origins, and watch as their past comes back to haunt them on more than one occassion. Great issues.
#12-15, 17 Good but not terrific one shot issues.
#19-21 Return to New York baby! Probably the most action packed and well drawn comic storyline that I can think of.
#27-29 Two great action stories; along with my personal favorite "Sons of the Silent Age" for an emotional touch.
#45-47 Great stories featuring many returning characters.
#48-62 Here's where the entire TMNT comic series changes. From this point on all the stories are deep and complex. As much as I love most of #1-21, "Shades of Grey" and "City At War" are epic. City At War is my personal favorite comic storyline period: great characterizations, great story writing, and just plain great thinking outside of the box by PL and KE.

I'll post my reviews of the rest of the Mirage continuity later....

[Lone Wolf]

Keep it going guys I love reading other peoples thoughts on this stuff.

Well I definately am going to read it all, I mean I just spent over $200 on these comics! I guess I was just expecting more consistency in the quality,I mean a lot of these cost me a pretty penny. I just ordered Vol 2 and 4 from the Official Site, as well as Michaelangelo and Leonardo; they should arrive in time for Christmas. I think I also ordered whatever Tales of the TMNT that they had, but so far I haven't read any of those. I think I'm OK without the Raph and Don one shots (although I do want them eventually) because I have seen the cartoon version of each :).

I noticed that Tales of the TMNT is pretty damn expensive at milehighcomics.com. So whatever I didn't order at the official site I'll probably pick up in early 2004.

One thing I don't get: Are the seemingly alternate reality stories by Eastman and Laird part of continuity? I.E. are events of Shell of the Dragon and the Justice Force characters part of the Mirage Universe?

[Karpo_007]

Not sure about the Shell of the dragon, but Justice Force story is part of continuity.

[Aztec General]

Not sure about the Shell of the dragon, but Justice Force story is part of continuity.

"Justice Force" #15 is but "Shell of the Dragon" #18 is not.

Now to continue my recap of Mirage Continuity:

Tales of the TMNT Vol. 1
#1-7 Various stories that introduce many important secondary characters or just tell cool tales (ex. #1). All are excellent, except #3 which is kind of weak.

Short Story Continuity from "Shell Shock" and "Grunts"
Utrom/Triceraton/Fugitoid story, Radical/C. Carnage story, Casey/Raph story, "The Lesson" Triceraton story (these are the ones that I consider to be definite continuity stories)- All are very good stories that add a some extra characterization to some secondary characters.

TMNT Vol. 2
#1-13- Continuing with the new style of complex storytelling established in #48 forward. Great storylines and we really get to see each main character's reaction to ongoing events. Things get a little too sci-fi and strange, but overall a decent volume.

TMNT Vol. 4
#1-12 ongoing- So far this has been a very different interpretation of the TMNT. The storyline is by far more sci-fi, but at the same time it focuses entirely around the characters. The story is very deep and intriguing. While it's true that the action's down; there has been plenty of shocking events that have occurred. Besides this whole serious has a sense of building, and there is tension in every which direction. Something's going to explode sooner or later.

Tales of the TMNT Vol. 2- Well, we'll just have to wait and see.
Vol. 1 #8 Revised- Coming soon

Well there it is folks a state of the Mirage TMNT address. As you can see I am a big fan of deep, complex storylines with lots of characterization. I'm glad that's the route that Mirage decided to take from Vol. 1 #48 on through Vol. 4.

[Cascadia]

the various issues in Volume 1 were different from each when you allow different writers and artists into fame. Yes, sometimes the main characters did not seem like themselves. 45-62 are very good. so are 1-13 and 27, 28. some of the issues were not my particular favorites.

[Donatello]

Vol. 1 #8 Revised- Coming soon

huh? what's this?

[kicknz]

Vol. 1 #8 Revised- Coming soon

huh? what's this?

Please refer to TMNT Vol. 4 letters pages. Laird has said that in the near future TMNT Vol. 1 #8 will be re-made. I think he said something about changing it to fit what upcoming continuity and fix a couple things he didn't like, and without Cerebus' involvement.

[Lone Wolf]

Well, I've read 27-30. They were all great. I especially liked 28-29. 29 was so cool with the Vampires and the the characterization of CAsey and that Vampire hunter dude I'm almost dissapointed its not part of continuity.

28 was great, but was it Native American year at Mirage or something? With the environment being a central theme in every issue since 24 I began to wonder when Captain Planet was going to make a guest appearance. Still have to love a story that elegantly portrays a large part of the essence of the Turtles.

Rick Veich (or whatever his last name is) redeemed himself somewhat with #30. The Turtles sounded like themselves, and the story was action packed and fast paced. Much better.

But why the hell did he have Casey give up on Raph so quickly in issue 26? WTF? Hey learn what Caseys about Rich. Sorry, that really ticked me off...

Well now that I got my hands on some of the cartoon episodes I missed, I wonder how they translated Return to New York.

Ah well, this Mirage stuff is going to have to stay this good now that I won't be getting my DreamWave fix :(.

[Karpo_007]

I think #29 is considered continuity, in the latest vol. 4 issue Raph said he has fought vampires before.

[Aztec General]

I think #29 is considered continuity, in the latest vol. 4 issue Raph said he has fought vampires before.

Yes it is, as I mentioned in my post. In Dan Berger's last continuity update it was included. Which reminds me, I think it's high time someone e-mailed Dan and found out if they have any updates :D . I was the first one to ask him (and I made a thread about it). Who's next?

[Lone Wolf]

Where can I get a list of issues that are in Continuity?

[Karpo_007]

Rat King posted a good list.

[kicknz]

That continuity is VERY far from being completed, anyway. There are TONS of TMNT short stories by Mirage artists, including Eastman and Laird, that aren't listed. I think it's pretty easy to determine what is NOT continuity, i.e. Mark Martin and the Zulli trilogy, etc. Wheeeeee.

[Aztec General]

That continuity is VERY far from being completed, anyway. There are TONS of TMNT short stories by Mirage artists, including Eastman and Laird, that aren't listed. I think it's pretty easy to determine what is NOT continuity, i.e. Mark Martin and the Zulli trilogy, etc. Wheeeeee.

As far as the short stories go, I'm only counting the ones that are ESSENTIAL. I'm not interested in short stories that show a turtle saving a kid from school yard bullies, etc. The 4 I mentioned (and possibly the Nobody short story from Tales Collected, which I don't have) are the only ones that really add to the story. Otherwise, I do think that I have most of the continuity down. So I'm not sure how you could say that I'm "VERY far from being complete".

I didn't include the Gizmo and Fugitoid 2 parter because the storyline doesn't seem to fit into the TMNT storyline. Not to mention, it really wasn't very good.

[Straight-Edge]

Laird is RETCONNING CEREBUS!?!?!?!

The fool! the fool, I say!

GRrrr... Cerebus is one of my favorite characters in the comicbook medium. Why, why doesn't he get any respect?

At least, to look positively, this means Renet and Savanti Romero have some importance to Laird (unlike Radical and Carnage, these're characters that actually resonate). But why is it necessary to retcon out and rewrite #8? That seems a bit too much like writer's hubris. Is not the fan's enjoyment of the original issue as important as the writer's "vision". A writer has to know that, while on the table, its all up to him, but once it's in the public's hands,it is over and you have to let it go.

Hasn't anyone learned their lesson from Mr Lucass and his Special Revisions. Greedo shooting first, the more mellow ending heme to Jedi... the pansy whiney scream of Luke as he fell down the Bespin shaft... the ever-changing girth of Jabba... it all served to weaken to original movies as much as the enhanced special effects served to strengthen them. If you're going to revise the story by cutting out part of it's initial charm (The Indie Crossover Event of 1986 anyone!?!), you're going to upset as many people as you please.

[PizzaPower]

Laird is RETCONNING CEREBUS!?!?!?!

The fool! the fool, I say!

GRrrr... Cerebus is one of my favorite characters in the comicbook medium. Why, why doesn't he get any respect?

At least, to look positively, this means Renet and Savanti Romero have some importance to Laird (unlike Radical and Carnage, these're characters that actually resonate). But why is it necessary to retcon out and rewrite #8? That seems a bit too much like writer's hubris. Is not the fan's enjoyment of the original issue as important as the writer's "vision". A writer has to know that, while on the table, its all up to him, but once it's in the public's hands,it is over and you have to let it go.

Hasn't anyone learned their lesson from Mr Lucass and his Special Revisions. Greedo shooting first, the more mellow ending heme to Jedi... the pansy whiney scream of Luke as he fell down the Bespin shaft... the ever-changing girth of Jabba... it all served to weaken to original movies as much as the enhanced special effects served to strengthen them. If you're going to revise the story by cutting out part of it's initial charm (The Indie Crossover Event of 1986 anyone!?!), you're going to upset as many people as you please.
I thinks that is very cool. I wonder is the new TMNT show will ever have Vampires in it? Probly not, but it would be cool though.

[Aztec General]

Laird is RETCONNING CEREBUS!?!?!?!

The fool! the fool, I say!

GRrrr... Cerebus is one of my favorite characters in the comicbook medium. Why, why doesn't he get any respect?

At least, to look positively, this means Renet and Savanti Romero have some importance to Laird (unlike Radical and Carnage, these're characters that actually resonate). But why is it necessary to retcon out and rewrite #8? That seems a bit too much like writer's hubris. Is not the fan's enjoyment of the original issue as important as the writer's "vision". A writer has to know that, while on the table, its all up to him, but once it's in the public's hands,it is over and you have to let it go.

Hasn't anyone learned their lesson from Mr Lucass and his Special Revisions. Greedo shooting first, the more mellow ending heme to Jedi... the pansy whiney scream of Luke as he fell down the Bespin shaft... the ever-changing girth of Jabba... it all served to weaken to original movies as much as the enhanced special effects served to strengthen them. If you're going to revise the story by cutting out part of it's initial charm (The Indie Crossover Event of 1986 anyone!?!), you're going to upset as many people as you please.


Calm down, there's no need to jump to conclusions. Laird is writing Cerebus out of continuity because David Sim (Cerebus') creator refuses to sign contracts. As such Laird would not be able to release reprints, graphic novels, or his ultimate goal of a continuity collection. Laird wants access to his storylines and characters without hinderance. Thus the rewriting of the story. Besides if you are going to change that one aspect of the story why not add a few more touches so people would want to buy it? Is that so unreasonable?

[Straight-Edge]

*sigh*...
ok, I'm calm now... Clutching my copy of Issue 8 stingily, and not unlike a three year old, but I'm dealing.

I thought he was doing it just cuz.. but if he's taking advantage of *having* to write Cerebus out, then I'm gonna understand it. Sim still has the call on that one.

But then my Grrr gets transfered to Sim... Wy not just let it go. His comic is almost over, and Cerebus could get a decent second life if he could transfer over to the Turtles, even if for just one issue/episode (and maybe even a Cerebus toy! ::heart breaks as reality sets in::)

SOB... but, anyway, that's cool if Laird is going for collected editions of the books. Especially if he leaves out the non-continuity stuff, and just puts out the story of the turtles. Thansk for setting me straight.

[Donatello]

does anyone know why cerebus' creator is doing this? and wadsn't he in another issue?

[heretic888]

Is not the fan's enjoyment of the original issue as important as the writer's "vision".

No. Not even close.

[Roseangelo]

But then my Grrr gets transfered to Sim... Wy not just let it go. His comic is almost over, and Cerebus could get a decent second life if he could transfer over to the Turtles, even if for just one issue/episode (and maybe even a Cerebus toy! ::heart breaks as reality sets in: :)

But see, Dave Sim doesn't want his character to have a second wind. His goal has never been any higher than publishing his own comic book with his own character. 400 issues telling the life story of that character, where in the last issue will be the death of his character. There it ends.

Mirage had a heck of a time getting around the no contract thing when the existing collected books were released (particularly the color books from First). I understand why Peter has to do it, but it is still disappointing.

[Lone Wolf]

Will I'm up to issue 45. I loved everything except for 44. It was well written but the story seemed unbelievable with that girl beating up Raphael. How the hell is he going to try to face a guy like Shredder iN RTNY when he loses to some street level boxer consistently? Other than that, the series has been A+ (even the goofy Turtlenator story was funny) great stuff, really cheered me up :).

Only thing is, I haven't read Turtle Soup or any of the Tales issues, so I think I missed some details in the issues related to those. Oh well. If Dougs Comic World has them in stock, I'll order them from there.

Another thing that confuses me: If "The River" is (thankfully) not a part of continuity, how can "Sons of the Silent Age" be a part of continuity if it flashes back to the events of that arc?


Since I only have 5 issues to go until City at War, anyone know what sparked Eastman and Laird to return to the Turtles one last time?

[Roseangelo]

I think the reason was as simple as knowing they wanted to do work on the book again and figuring that #50 would be a good time to do it.