A thing about Leo
 

As a Leo fan, I feel that I understand him very well. Who he is as a person. How he interacts.
There's something about how the different mediums such as the old series and new series portray Leo that seems off to me...
Like how he seems to be such a perfect sibling and perfect son. Leo seems to be such a nice and lovable guy... and to me, this just doesn't seem right.

I was discussing about this to Spitfire and Machias. seems we three agree.
Seeing as Leo is the eldest brother, he ought to have the characteristics such as the big brother attitude of "I'm better than you because I'm the oldest".
Also, seeing as the four of them grew up together, and Leo not only being the eldest, but also being able to kick their butts, that ought to give him a sense of bragging rights. It should also make Leo grow up to be a cocky bast*rd.

This doesn't mean that Leo will be a complete jerk-off to his brothers. He would be there to protect his brothers and be there for them in serious situations, but at the same time, at less serious times, be a cocky playful jerk who would put his brother in a head-lock and tell him to say uncle.

Though, Raph is already a jerk towards Mikey (since he's the youngest), so I guess this makes Leo more gentile with Mikey and harder on Raph, like slap him upside the head for tormenting Mikey. Then Leo starts to torment Raph as a sick sense of brotherly justice.

I can see Leo getting along with Don the best. You gotta respect a guy who can do the stuff that Don can. Leo would probably push Mikey around alot like Mikey has to do everything Leo says, but he wouldn't be so rough about it. Leo would be a jerk-off to Raph though... but in a brotherly way.

If you ever watched the movie What's Eating Gilbert Grape?, You'll notice that the big brother (Johnny Depp) in that movie is a responsible guy who runs the house, but at the same time is kinda a jerk to his siblings... even if he dosn't mean it. He cares for them but is a bit rough at times.
That's how I see Leo.

Mikey is the happy go-lucky one. He's the youngest sibling, so in a lot of ways, he has it easy. Raph is the pissy, aggravated, depressed guy. He's a jerk to Mikey because he can push him around. And he'll be a jerk to Leo because Leo get's on his nerves with his big brother attitude. Donnie is the one who keeps low profile and is the only one who doesn't do anything to piss others off.
Because Donnie never says or does anything dumb like Raph and Mikey, Leo respects him. Leo also gives Donnie props for creating cool ****.

Leo is the eldest brother, and with that, comes the big brother attitude of "I'm better than you because I'm the oldest". So he's going to be cocky and push his bros around (minus Don). He'll feel he has rights to "parent" them and tell them what to do because he's the oldest and he'll kick their asses if they don't listen to him.

Anyone here who has more than one sibling will know what I mean.

It just makes more sense than Leo being this "perfect" sibling and "perfect" son that gets along with everyone and never causes trouble.

Fans tend to think Leo is such a "good boy" when he really isn't supposed to be like that.


I had this fun conversation with Machi about it, and I wrote this to Machi...

To which she replied...


We had a good laugh about it. But in all honesty, this is very accurate to how an older sibling would act with a younger one.


Any thoughts?

But hey... They are like quadruples. They mutated at the same moment and gained human identity almost at the same time. Leo wasn't Splinter's first son and only child in the family for some time, he doesn't live longer than his brothers (at least as a mutant turtle), you know what I mean?

Yes, I understand what you mean, but it's not about actually being the oldest. Yes, they are all about the same age, but Leo certainly took the mantle of Alpha male, and since they're a family, that translates as Leo being the "big brother".

But as being the leader of the pack, he must also find the median of how to react. He can't always just be uptight. As you can tell, from the new series, he's acting just as much like a teen as the rest of them. (Being that we're now in season 4, this would make him 19.) He even says himself in the episode "Bad Day," "I do what I have to to protect this family." However, this doesn't mean he needs to act like a stiff all the time. Even the best have to have some fun, and he does.

By the way, I'm also a huge Leo fan.

I never thought of this, while watching the old toon. For me it was the opposite: I had the feeling that he put up with that was Raph said. Perhaps I am wrong?? Or did you only speek about the new toon?
Could be that I come to his defence :D

I myself have got only one brother, 12 years older than me.

No, no, no, TheShowstoppa. It's not about him being a "stiff" or "uptight". It's about him playing his role as the big brother. I'm just saying that he doesn't fully fulfill that role. See, Leo is pretty much playing all the possitive aspects of a big brother. But he really doesn't play out much of the negative aspects.
I know Leo can be just as young in heart and playful as his brothers... But he just doesn't seem to have much of the "big brother" quirks.


And Leo the 2nd, I know as a fan, you want to view Leo as being this great guy who is perfect and generally a very cool and nice guy... but in all honesty, he really ought to not be so charismatic.
I mean, Hell, I've never known an older sibling to be so nice and cool to his younger ones. It doesn't mean he doesn't like them... It just means he's not going to be considerate of their feelings all the time.

I seldom argued with my older brother, perhaps it's the high age difference.
And I know two families, in which the younger ones are playing the "king", because they are a bit favored by their parents. So it can be otherwise :)

But right. I think if I had a younger sibling I would a bit be like Leo,too, because I do it almost to my friends and the most are younger than me.
Anyway they assure it.
But I don't want and to be that bad and don't hope that I am , because I don't want to lose them.
So I think there is a difference between beeing like this to your siblings or your friends, or what do you mean?

BAH, I talk to much again, sorry.

I don't see Leo as taking on a "big brother role"...I think its just his normal personality being expressed that may look like he's taking on the role, due to the peronalities of his bros...I mean, Raph is caught up in all his angst, Mike is just being the fool, and Donny is caught up being all smart, reading, etc.... And I think Leo, not being so caught in any one thing, just took it up himself to act as "in-between" guy, expressing a little of all of theose characters at differnt times...i feel that any one turtle could fully take charge of the group and get similar results as Leo, though maybe not using the same methods...

Yea, but he's still the koolist IMO :tcool:

See, the thing is, there has been alot of misconceptions created of Leo from the fan base as well as the people behind the original animated series.

I think we can all agree that none of the TMNT from the old series was true to their counterpart from the Mirage series.

Leo in the early Mirage series was alot different than the Leo from the original series. He was hard, cold, impatient, cocky, and a bit reckless at times. Towards his brothers, he was usually sociable but rough at times.

The people behind the old series decided to make Leo a rather nice guy who doesn't talk much, but when he does, it's always something helpful, "leader-like", and always something constructive and relevant to what was going on.
While he did boss around the others in the series, it wasn't in an authoritive "big brother" way. It seemed more of a whiny way like, "Come on, guys! Splinter wouldn't want us to do that!" kinda way.

Somewhere down the line, practicly the whole TMNT fan base started to create misconceptions of Leo. Like saying he's so honorable. That's such BS. Leo is only as honorable as the next guy. Just because he talks alot about honor such as his old catch frase "Turtles fight with honor!", and the fact that he weilds katana which people automaticly assume makes Leo very "samurai-like", and since samurai follow a strict code of honor that they would die for, the fan base automaticly assume Leo is the same way.
Another one is that the fan base views Leo as a "straight-arrow". I guy who never causes trouble and never gets into it. He's nice to everyone, and is a fabulous guy in general. All I have to say is, what a croc. Sure, Leo seems to be the most obedient one, but that's only because Leo is just being a big brother. It's basicly an excuse to push his bros around because he feels he has that kind of power that Splinter has since he's the oldest. It's a common elder brother mentality. Technically, Raph can also come down on Mikey if he "misbehaves" for the same reason as Leo.
Leo in the early Mirage comics can be pretty ebrasive, yet in the old series, he gets along with everyone so well.

To me it seems that most Leo fans out there seem to like Leo for the "surface" reasons. Y'know... The typical stuff like because Leo is the leader, wears blue, fights with swords, is the best fighter, ect...
Then you have the misconceptions of Leo which just about everyone believes is the "real" Leo.
Only a very few of the Leo fans actually understand Leo. They like him for more than just the "surface" stuff, some which are misconceptions created by the original series and the majority of the TMNT fan base.
These few people actually go deep into the character of Leonardo and really understand him.
They know that Leo isn't really this great, honorable, good guy who is the perfect sibling/son role-model.
They know that Deep down, Leo is this complicated guy who's just looking out for his bros and working hard at being a superb ninja mainly for his own selfish reasons more than to protect his family.

After going through your first fifteen years with no real threats in your life, you tend to look at martial arts training as more of a hobby rather than skills for survival. Leo likes the hobby more than his bros, so he's going to work hard in it like anyone who loves what they do. He became an amazing fighter for mainly his own gratification rather than to use it to protect his family.

It's kinda like with me and my drawing. I've been doing it for practicly my whole life. I'm pretty amazing at it now, but I don't ever think to myself "****, I need to use my art skills to make money so I can support my family." Hell no. I do it because I enjoy it. Simple as that.

Only after all the craziness that the TMNT went through, did Leo have to start putting his family first before his on personal reasons when training.

M'kay :tgrin:

I love the analysis stuff like this.. Being the youngest of four, I can understand a lot of the 'sibling heirarchy' that takes place in families. Heck, I remember comparing me and my brothers to the TMNT as far back as Middle school..

The old series didnt really go into this kinda thing. They were all portrayed as 'friends' that lived together, which bothered me a bit. Thats when I started getting into writing my own mini-stories, using my own brothers and myself as models for the guys. Seeing Raph as being second eldest, it fit that he was like my second older brother in the way he was with the oldest and all. My "Leo" and "Raph" used to fight constantly, until my parents had to get involved. Its like what I said to Ryona:

The younger would instigate the oldest until he got him into a fighting rage, which would bring in the parent, in the TMNT's case, Splinter. The parent would go after the OLDEST, saying that they've got to calm down and be an example for the others. the younger would use this 'ability' to his advantage, until the Oldest would finally kick his arse, which would get him into trouble again. Vicious lil cycle..

Heh, some of you have probably experienced this. Having this experience as the "Mikey" of the family, I can understand the antics and emotions involved. Whenever I write the characters, I usually find myself thinking about me and my own brothers. I have a Raphael story I'm working on that really goes into Raph's mind, as well as other things.

Ok, I've said too much here, I'll shut up and go scan some pictures..

No, I don't agree with that at all.

sure, Don, Raph, or Mikey can try to lead the group and do reasonably well, but they won't do nearly as well as Leo. They just don't fit the part.

I believe that some poeple make natural leaders while some simply don't.

Leo has that natural charismatic "take-charge" kinda charm.
He can look at a bad situation, pull it appart, study and anylize it, and put together a quick, easy, and effective plan that solves the problem(s).


Believe me... I fully understand this. Speaking in the professional world, some people are suited as mannagers while others are suited as assistance.





Leo_Rulez, either say something relevant to the thread, or don't post in here at all.

I dunno if Leo has to be as bad as "cocky" just because he's the eldest. In normal situations, at least.

I myself am the oldest of three. (Wow, another similarity with Leo I didn't catch before! Weird...) Generally I only tended to pull rank when my parents were gone and I was watching the younglings. You know, the whole "Mom put me in charge, so you have to listen." In normal situations, I rarely mentioned it.

Personally, I think that Leo fulfils his "in charge" bit (in the new toon, anyway) by reminding the others what Splinter would say/think before they go and do something stupid. Raph is too strong-willed to let this stop him, and Leo knows this... so by now it's mostly a gesture. He just tags along to do his best to keep his bros out of danger.

Now, I can see him as carrying himself kinda like a star athlete. Take a girl from my highschool for example. She was definitely confident with her abilities; after all, she placed fourth in the state cross country meet. But she never rubbed it in anyone's face or demanded special treatment, which is what I admired about her. She would go red every time the coach would praise her in front of the team. But she didn't lack confidence.

I guess what I'm saying is - it is possible for Leo to act the way he does in the new toon. That he may just be an extraordinary guy with humility and talent like my teammate. That's probably why his "honorable" personality doesn't rub me the wrong way -I've seen it in person before.

Of course he's got his flaws - Raph can't keep his mouth shut when arguing with Leo... but then again, neither can Leo. They're both strong-willed, stubborn turtles; the only difference is Leo has had more success with self-control.

Oh, and before I finish up... for the record, I always liked Leo for being the blue guy with swords. (I'd forgotten about the leader thing.) But when the new toon came out, I went online to look 'em up. Having been a fan of the old toon at age 5, I was pleasantly surprised to rediscover that they had distinct personalities. And I was seriously creeped out by how close the Leonardo profiles were to describing me. Some of Don's qualities did the same thing. And now I remember that I'm the oldest? Yow. So yeah... I like to think I know where I'm coming from when I analyze his personality.

*still needs to read Vol. 1 Mirage with desperateness*

Ryona, you’re only really focusing on the Leonardo from the original comics. You can’t simply say that the Mirage Leonardo is the definitive Leonardo. Every incarnation of the turtles has portrayed the character differently, but that doesn’t mean that they are portraying him incorrectly. His personality has never been the same in any of the incarnations of the TMNT, and in each one Leonardo was a different character.

But I do agree with you that there are a lot of misconceptions regarding Leonardo, and who he really is in all the mediums. A lot of fans just seem to watch what Leo does and what he says, but they don’t seem to really look for the reasons why he does or says those things. Like you said, he is a very complex character (Well, maybe not in the old toon.)

I don't know the new toon, so I said this. :ohwell:

Yes, this I have noticed, too. A pity I think :ohwell:



I myself never said, that he is perfect or that cool....and I am not,too

I know it from my ninjutsu training and so I have got some problems with my boyfriend, who meant I would prefer my training to him. Right english??

In general I say although that he is selfless and a guy, who is OK ( like his brothers, too, of course ) who loves his family.

Luckily I can say that in october I can see the new toon finally :D

Those were the reasons I liked him/he was my favorite, but something about his dedication made me like him alot too, knowing that he'd do anything for his brothers made him that much greater. I still like him, it's just I've had a little change of heart recently which made me go towards Raph more, but Leo is still the "Best" Turtle in terms of the word.

I guess that it's the fact that Leonardo strives for perfection that makes him so complex a person. It's not his fault, though, at least not entirely.

I know how it is to have alot of siblings. I am one of 5....and the only girl...and the youngest. My oldest brother is definitely a Leo. And he is Definitly hard to take sometimes. Actually, I guess I could peg each of my brothers with a turtle personality. My Youngest brother is the cute one who always charms his way out of trouble and we just kind of chalk it up to him, being him. And my middle brother is a Don. The eternal peace keeper. Always putting out fires and everyone's best friend. And the other oldest twin...yeah, the Raph one. He is Twins with my Leo brother and they almost ALWAYS have opposite points of view.

I look at the turtles that way. To strong opinions, a peace keeper, and the guy showing out to get attention.

How do I fit into all that mess I just described? I STAY OUT OF IT ;)

As the oldest of four, I’ll admit I have some of those “negative aspects” where my siblings are concerned, that really don’t come out at other times. That whole “I’ve been around longer, and I *know*” attitude. Probably one reason I’m not especially fond of Leo, knowing what's there. :lol:

But, Splinter’s family isn’t exactly standard. Their lifestyle probably does have an effect on the roles in the family. I mean, I know and am fully prepared to defend the lives of my siblings, but I don’t have to do it every other week.

There are surprisingly few people who take the time to dig into the Turtles’ (and other characters’) personalities. Not that that’s a bad thing. I love a good psychological dissection, but most of the time I just want to enjoy it on a more subconscious level.

I'm the second oldest of four... and the oldest that lives at home. So basically, like, most of the time I'm like the oldest. I'm not like Leo at all. Infact, I really *hate* Leonardo. I see.. a goody-two-shoes character... always has to be perfect... always better than everyone... ugh. I just don't like him at all.

I think that if you were the oldest, hannah, you would probably think differently about Leo. You'd understand where he's coming from.

See, this is a good example of a common misconception about Leo.
Lots of people view Leo as such a "goody-two-shoes" because of how he was portrayed in the original series.

Hanna, seems to me that you dislike Leo based on the misconceptions.


When growing up watching the original series, I thought that the Leo in that series was the definite Leo simply because I didn't know any other Leos.
Then, around the early ninties, I discovered the Mirage comics and was stunned at how different Leo was. It's what really made me fall in love with Leonardo.


Hannah, I strongly suggest you check out the early Mirage comics. They would certainly open your eyes to the real Leo.

There’s also the problem of people interpreting different personality traits differently. Consider this true story: A girl goes to a new college. She’s very shy, and doesn’t know anyone, so for awhile she stays by herself. Eventually, she does get to know some people. Upon getting to know her, one says, “You’re much different than I thought you were. You’re so nice, I thought you were a snob for not talking to anyone.”

This happens in real life, and can effect how people see fictional characters as well. I’ve read books I borrowed from friends, and while discussing them discovered that we interpreted actions and intentions very differently! What one person sees as confident, another sees as cocky. One’s introvert is another’s anti-social. One’s loyal fan is another’s obsessed. ;)

We also have the power to change our way of thinking.

The only problem is, we'd have to want to, and it would also require a lot of patience with one's self.

Oh, I totally undertsand what you mean, Kali. *nods*

It just sets me off when people dislike Leo (or any character at that) for such reasons.
"Oh, I hate Leo because (insert misconceptions in here)".
It's not a valid reason to dislike someone.

It's kinda like people disliking an actor based on what the media has hyped up the public to believe. Then you find out on TV from a personal interview with the actor that he's quite different from the misconceptions the media has created.

I have read some of the comics before.. I dont like him still.

And Ive actually only seen about 4 episodes of the original cartoon. i didnt judge him from that

Well, Ryona, sooner or later, the media will catch up to you. :ohwell:

The media caught up with Leonardo the day the old cartoon began in 1987.

*bows low* Thank you for those words of widsom, sensei... :tlol: :tpizza:

Yeah... Leo is definitely not goody-two-shoes. If he were, he'd never fight with Raph over dumb stuff, never let his bros even think about leaving against Splinter's will (instead of tagging along to make sure they're OK), etc. While the new toon does give Leo all the coolness he deserves, they're also careful to make sure he gets taken down a few pegs every once in a while, more so than the others.

For example, "The Shredder Strikes pt. 1"... Leo beats his brothers in training and assumes it's because he has the "superior weapon." Splinter then proceeds to kick his butt with bare paws and a stick. The others don't need this kind of "pwned" moments because they aren't striving for perfection. Leo is. Instead, stuff happens like... ehh, things breaking through to Raph's soft side. Mikey being forced to be serious. Stuff like that.

@Katie: It's weird how that seems to work out, doesn't it? My sister is the second oldest and her favorite is Donatello... yet she herself is the most Raph-like of us all. (She is 15, but still!) My brother is the youngest, and he's a lot like his favorite, Michelangelo. He's not the dumb joke-type, but he does talk a lot and is really sensitive. Maybe even over-sensitive. And I fall into Leo's spot as the oldest (with maybe some Don). I mean, what other position is for a person who freaks out because they got a 94% on an assignment? :trolleye:

Well, that's good to know, but I still don't see how anyone can dislike Leo.
Based on the new series, he's kinda like the cool kid in class that everyone votes to be class president because he's so charismatic and smart.



And I totally agree with what you said, Masked Ninja.

I hated those people when I was in school. :D

In the larger picture, there really is no such thing as a single type of person that everyone is going to like. There's always going to be another personality type that clashes with them. I think that's one of the reasons TMNT was/is so popular, because no matter what kind of "hero" you like, you're gonna like at least one of the TMNT.

Heh, I learned from the best. ;)

And yet he still makes mistakes that can affect the entire school.

Judging from the spoilers of the 3 episodes from the 4th Season, it seems he undergoes a radical personality transformation. I'm anxious to see the motives behind it. :D

See, I don't think its right to say that. How can we truly know how any one of the turtles would fare since from the getgo Leo's taken it upon himself to lead and "be in charge"? You're right: Leo is naturally a "take charge" kinda guy but that in and of itself doesn't make him the best leader...you say the others "dont fit the part"...great leaders come in all sizes and shapes and personalities... When things get rough and you need someone to step up, I feel that anyone of those guys could do the job...they are all masters of their craft and have learned from the best, in ninja and morality (splinter)...just because day in and day out they dont feel the need to show it like Leo doesn't mean that cant do it...dont get me wrong, I like Leo..alot..but not anymore than any of the others...i feel he brings something important and unique to the team, as do the rest....again, for the past 20 yrs or so we have seen Leo lead, so its very, VERY hard to picture anyone of the other turtles leading and succeeding as Leo has...but don't let that one fact, the fact they we are USED to seeing him lead, shield you from the idea that anyone of the others could do his job, and maybe better...

Exactly. o_o

See now that right there isn't fair too. I agree with alot of what you said, but to say that they can maybe do better is just not justified.

Donnie is the Tech wizard, but could any of the others take his place and do better? Yes, any of them can become a tech wiz too, but do better? Hell no. Donnie has a natural affinity for that kinda stuff, much like Leo has a natural affinity as a leader.

Infact, there was an episode in the original series where Leo disappeared and the other three had to deal with Shredder and Krang themselves. Each of them took turns on being the leader but did a lousy job of it. It was only when Leo showed up towards the end did they actually function well afterwards and stop Shredder and Krang's destructive plans.

Of course, that's just the old series though, so chances are they would be more successful as leaders in other mediums, but the fact still remains that Leo is the "born" leader in the group and will do a much better job than the others can hope to achieve.

Ryona, I can't help feeling you're being stereotypical here with Leonardo on the big brother status. I'll admit I was a lot of things, but never a jerk or a bragger.

I am the oldest of one younger sibling, a brother, who acts much like Raph, and a little bit of Mikey. We get along for the most part, but sometimes he annoys the freakin' hell out of me. I admit I get impatient with him fairly quickly, and start telling him to put a lid on it. I can't seem to brush it off, and go on. For the most part, however, I am very patient.

I am a loner. I usually tend to isolate myself from people, except for a few very close friends at work and online. These same friends say they have never known anyone so sweet, and thoughtful. I am extremely introverted, and keep my emotions bottled up. When I was in school, I talked to no one. I was withdrawn and shy, and people often bullied or picked on me for this reason or others they found worth harrassing. I was a very exceptional student, and usually teacher's pet. My escape was reading, and I drowned myself in books. I also discovered later I had a gift for storytelling myself when I started to dabble at short stories. People often tell me I write wonderfully, but I blush, and feel self-conscious each time. It's the same when I do an exceptional job at work. I appreciate comments like that, but I in no way brag about it. Sometimes I'm dissatisfied, and feel I can do better. This is where my perfectionism comes in to play.

I don't do well in chaotic environments. I like stablity and control. I don't like being a leader, but I've noticed I seem to have a natural ability for it just the same.

As the oldest sibling in the family, I have had to go through some tough sh*t in my life. My side of the story often didn't matter, and I was always blamed even when I was innocent because I had to set an example. And I wasn't the favored one at all. I was lucky if I even got the time of day. In this aspect, I grew very bitter towards my brother during childhood because he had such an untouchable status I despised. One does get tired rather quickly for brunting the punishment on both ends. I'll admit I did some mean-spirited things to him I regret now. Though whenever came the instance someone tried to hurt my little brother, no one fought fiercer than I did. I protected him with my life. I would still do it.

I understand Leonardo so well because he is just like me, and it's why I fell in love with him. He is a kindred spirit; someone I can relate to. It was movie-one Leo I was first drawn to, and delved into his character, analyzing and picking it apart to find all the aspects. Maybe that's why I watched it so much. ^^'

It's not about being stereotypical... It's about being true and logical. It's based on alot of psycological aspects.

Givin the fact that Leo grew up with Splinter and his brothers being the only people in his life means that they make up his world. Splinter is a highly respected, powerful, and authorative figure in their lives. Splinter is the law and is in a sense been around since the begining of time to the boys. He almost has a godly-like status towards them. The boys have never known any other wise, grown-up figures like Splinter.

Since Leo is the big brother, to him that puts him in this incredible status. It makes him that much closer to what Splinter is to them and ought to give Leo a feeling of being king in Splinter's absense.

Because Leo can also defeat his brothers in combat, that also puts a pretty big feather in Leo's cap and ought to make him smug and cocky at times.

You have to understand that for fifteen years these five individuals have been the world to each other.

It's much different than our lives which happens to be influenced by thousands of people who interact with us.

Think a lion pack for example. Now a group of a couple of lions may be the only lions on the plain. The alpha male of that pack is going to act like ****ing king shi*t because there's really no one outside of their circle who's going to challange him.

Some people say that his character is not very authentic, because the reality is much different. But, man, it's just a fictional character.

I think that is normal for older siblings.