Raph and Leo - SPOILERS INSIDE
 

In the fight between our two turtle brothers, Raph and Leo, Raph is the obvious winner. But my understanding later (from Raph's comment to Splinter "I understand why you made him [Leo] leader.") is that Leo let Raph win?

I don't know exactly how to phrase it, but that is the feeling that I got afterward - he was being a good leader by letting Raph win? Or did Raph just whip Leo at the end to set up the capture and make up?

EDIT: Changed title to be less - spoilerie.

I think cause he realized he acts impolsivly at times so thats why he's not leader

Leo in no way LET Raph win, Raph WON that fight.

I kind of figured that Leo won round 1, Raph won round 2. I mean they first fought when Raph was still only the Nightwatcher to Leo. They fought and Leo used Nightwatcher's anger against him and then hit him with an upper cut which layed him out.

Then because of that he finds out Nightwatcher= Raph and the 2 go at it after they argue. The match was definatly even until they locked up and Raph broke Leo's swords (which caught Leo completly offgaurd judging by the expression on his face) and Raph then took that opportunity to take Leo down.

1 Leo
1 Raph

He said that because he felt terrible after failing to get Leo back.

said what?

Raph's deal was that he was convinced he could lead himself better than Leo could. After winning the confrontation (Leo had mentioned he was the leader of the group because he was "better than Raph") Raphael realizes that Leo is fallible - But that's what makes him a good leader (as Splinter says later when Raph returns, it takes humility to be a good leader in addition to strength and loyalty). Raph turns tail and runs because he realizes this and is overwhelmed by it. It's like having a big fight with your sibling and finding out that you were wrong after spending so much time yelling at each other. =P He realizes how much he needs Leonardo because he isn't ready to act on his own, and it makes him feel ashamed.

Then, of course, he's able to admit to his mistake once Leo is lost to Winters and comes back to his brothers to help get him back.

At least, this is my take on it.

"I understand why you made him leader."

I forgot the whole statement.

how can yall say raph won that fight when leo embarrassed him as the nightwatcher. knocking somebody down and running away is not considered a "win" to me.

I'm still sticking to my

Leo-1
Raph-1

Because literally, thats how it went down: Leo beat Raph then Raph beat Leo

i can agree with that

Raph let his anger get to him. He didn't realize that his anger nearly cost Leo's life until he was about to take it. Like Splinter said in the first movie, "It can be an unconquerable enemy." I believe Raph won the fight, but with a price. He finally realized that he needs Leo to be there for him. And he also figured out that it's his temper and anger that will keep him from being a proper leader that Leo is. You can tell his attitude totally changed after this and after Leo got kidnapped.

I think Rahzar said it pretty well.

This was, as ThemanthatwouldRaphael said in his review thread the BEST TMNT fight in any of the movies. This was the best scene in the movie, it's the centerpiece in terms both of action and emotion. And I loved ever second of it. It's the Leo vs. Raph fight we've always wanted to see, with neither holding back. And they ARE evenly matched. There was some fear when I read the novelization that it might be more onesided (not that I wouldn't be glad for Raph to finally beat Leo;) but then all the Leo fans would be screaming) but that wasn't the case at all on film. It was definately, round 1 to Leo and round 2 to Raph. These guys were working all their strengths against each other and all their weaknesses were taken advantage of as well. Raph and Leo are two fighters who know each other inside because they are brothers but they also don't know each other in this fight because they have both gotten better in their time spent apart.

Raph's advantage over Leo when he breaks his swords and imediately following isn't one of skill, it's one of pure berseker rage. Raph's shame isn't just that he realizes what Rahzar said, but also that if Raph had continued to press his advantage at that point the outcome would have been that Raph's next move would have killed his own brother in his berserker rage (just like the Meet Casey Jones ep in the new toon where Raph almost kills Mike with the pipe in his rage). It's the thought that Raph could even come so close to commiting such a abominble act against Leo and just barely stopping himself in time that causes him to flee.

Raph has the most potential to really lose it because of his rage. Honestly, if he had really hurt Leo or even killed him, he would of lived the rest of his life in shame. Raph is closer to the dark side than any of this brothers. I hope he finally seeks solitude in Splinter's help with his problem. And let's hope he never drinks alcohol either. That would only make it worse.

But remember, Raph had a TON of gear on as Nightwatcher. He could still move pretty good, but not like her would have au naturale.

I used to race street bikes. Walking around in leathers is hard work, much less having a fight in them.

On the money.

And that was painful. Suddenly, Leo no longer represents an ideal that Raph can struggle against without remorse. As Splinter points out, Raph is passionately protective of what he loves. And in that moment, with his brother at his mercy and symbolically broken, basically waiting for Raph to 'finish him,' Raph turns around and sees himself as the enemy. And we all know how Raph feels about his enemies.

So that's why Raph does a 180, stops feeling jealous/rebellious in regard to Leo's status in the clan, and admits that Leo's not such a bad choice for leader.

Leo, for his part, still has some serious issues. :roll:

That was all very well said...I think that scene made the movie, it was the whole climatic turn and it was the part that really just got me. They may have concentrated on Leo and Raph for most of the film but they did it well

granted he had alot of stuff on but it didn't seem to effect his movement at all

If Raph touched alcohol that would be akin to a natural disaster reaping havoc upon the world.

I thought his losing to Raph, then his saying that he needs him when Leo is saved was Leo coming around to respect his brother more. Granted he didn't get the chance to vent after the fight as Raph did but I think Leo telling Raph that he needs him, especially after how earlier in the film he questions why they need him at all, was supposed to show that

I would have liked to see Leo regain confidence in his own leadership by the end, just as Raph came to his realization. It would have made the story feel a little more complete to me, I guess. But oh well.

I also loved how Splinter made the distinguisment between his role as teacher and father in his talk with Raph. He's not gonna sugarcoat that Leo is his favorite student, but he loves them ALL as sons.

And I, even being a Leo fan, will come out and say that yeah, Raph took him down. I think that a fight like this often hinges on who's angrier. And I think Raph has a more blinding rage than Leo, as well as more physical strength. Had it stayed Leo vs. Nightwatcher, it may have been more even. Why? I think that even though he was ticked off, Leo had a little "hold back" mentality that went into him subconsciously as soon as he found out he was fighting his brother. Raph goes blind and just wants to kill whatever's in front of him. Leo was fighting to merely beat Raph, but Raph was fighting to kill because of that berserker rage. That's just a fundamental difference in their fighting styles. I think they'd match up pretty equally if they were going against non-family opponents, because then Leo would be in it to the death.

My thoughts, anyway. It was nice seeing Leo get taken down for a change. :) And I was glad that the weapons-locked position ended up with him swords breaking because I was a bit worried for a second that the lock would slip and someone would get stabbed. D:

My take on it was that as much skill and ability as Leo has, when it comes down to pure fury or killer instinct, Raph just can not be stopped.

I don't believe either was looking to kill their brother, but Leo's nature made him tone down the fight a few levels before Raph did and left himself vulnerable.

You know, I don't think Leo lost on purpose. I understand why people think that, but I just don't see it. That might be a Splinter strategy, but Leo is not there yet.

I feel that, at first, Raph's newfound respect for Leo comes at the price of respect for himself. He's a bit mixed up, that Raphael. Luckily, Splinter straightens him out somewhat.

Leo tells Raph he needs him? I don't remember that, but I don't really remember much of the dialogue from the fight scene after Leo says he's better than Raph.

I agree with you on that first point. I think he was really going full-out, fight-wise. But I do think there was something subconscious going there. Like, I dunno... someone punching their brother in the face but pulling the punch without even meaning to... because you don't want to hurt them THAT bad. Raph, I think, has a little less of this instinct.

And the "I need you" line comes before the final fight, right after Raph hands Leo new swords.

Ah... I see.

Great point about the subconscious restraint. I guess that's the other half of what people were pointing out upthread about Raph being willing to push the savagery further than Leo.

Thats what I was really trying to get at in this post...

So basically, it was Ralph's rage that allowed him "win" the second fight.

Yet it was Leo's losing, and "humanity" that make him a good leader (he is more than just a loyal / strong fighter), which is what Splinter helps Raph cope with, after Raph realizes it running back to the sewer.

Sorry I'm too lazy to read the other posts, I'm really tired but this is how I saw it, and why I think the filmmakers were genius. This was like the #1 topic of all time on turtle boards, who would win Raph vs Leo, and so it was great just getting it in the movie. The genius part is as follows.

Leo was beating the "night watcher" because Leo didn't know it was Raph. It was just another villain. But when he finds out its Raph and can't finish the fight because it's his brother, however Raph being much angrier is able to knock Leo down and even almost finish him. This is why Leo is leader, and Raph is just the strong guy. For a loner it might be a strong quality, but as a team you can't finish off your fellow teammates/brothers.

So in my opinion they're stronger than each other in different ways. Leo may be the better fighter, but Raph has the anger in him to finish what he starts.

Isn't the title of this thread itself a spoiler?

I liked that fight; it showed that Leo and Raph are pretty evenly matched (important; appeasing fans is good). It's impressive that Raph was dextrous even with his armour, but keep in mind also: he was wearing armour. He didn't have to hold back as much in order to protect himself; he could go right in and beat up Leo. Leo had to focus more on protecting his hide and less on beating Raph.

he tells him that when they go to rescue him, right after Raph gives him his new swords

edit--someone beat me to it

Thanks anyway, johnnyblaze.

Normally, I hate the Leo v. Raph topics, but this scene was just too sweet. I'm gonna see it again tomorrow! :D

Just so you know, this topic isn't about Raph vs. Leo. It is about Raph's comments to Splinter following the scene - about Leo as leader.

The scene was so sweet though. I can't wait to see it again. Definately was the best Turtle's battle to date. Followed by their first battle with Shredder in TMNT 1.

PHWEW!!! Just got done watching this movie not too long ago. I left a happy camper, and that this fight is something that both Leo and Raph fans, I believe, can digest easily enough.

I think Leo lost the second fight because he was doing the one thing that often get's in the way of Raph's victories. Over confidence. The second Leo said he was better than Raph, I just think made him feel cocky, and he lost that edge that tends to be his signature.

I agree with the lot of you, that Raph also has some insane arsenal when he blows the top and goes into that beserker rage.

I also liked it how Splinter had pointed out to Raph, that while he is not leader material, he is, however, his other three brothers biggest protector. The second Raph heard Leo's cry for help, Raph turned about face to try and help his brother.

Also, after they all made a truce, and were going after Max Winters (I cant recall the exact moment) but while Leo and Don were figuring out plans, Mikey was goofing off, Raph was in front, almost seeming to be the first to check out the waters before his brothers. Dont know if anyone else noticed this or not.

Also, side note. Raph made have had that armor to protect himself from Leo's blows and blades, but from the sound of Raph huffing and puffing, that armor took it's toll on his stamina and agility.

This is by far my favorite scene of the movie, and also what followed after the fight. Just everything couldn't have been more perfect. It was so intense, and it felt so real to me.

Each of them have their own different views of the world, and it can be hard for them to listen/communicate with each other because they are stubborn in their own ways. It reminds me of how some things have happened in my life like that.

Raph won, but I don't think it was necessarily all about his rage.

Leo saying "Because I'm better than you" and the fact that he had knocked him down while they were fist fighting gives me the impression that Leo didn't think Raph could hold his own against him. Leo seemed full of himself because he had been training for so long that he assumed he Raph wouldn't be able to touch him in a 1v1 fight. Naturally when you overlook your opponent you can easily be taken down.

I mean Leo's face said it all when his swords were broken. :o It was just a complete shock that it could have possibly happened.

That being said the whole scene was just amazing to me. I was pumped in the theater because Raph has always been my fav and he got to "win" but as I drove home I contemplated the fight more and realized a lot of circumstances went into the fight that makes me think that if they were just sparring a week after the film ends Leo would probably win since he is the better technical fighter.

**I am so glad I found this board. I would never have been able to talk about this with anyone else.**

Remember what Karai said about unfinished business. This movie is in no way complete. There is much to be done about the foot for the next movie.


I was quite surprised with Raph's reaction to Leo's "I'm better than you" remark. I would have expected Raph to snap back or attack blindly. Instead he simply laughs it off. I absolutely loved how Raph finally embraces Leo and Raph's role in the family. I also loved how Splinter kept referring to the turtles and himself as a "family." Best movie I've seen in a long long while.

Ya, I was surprised by Raph's reaction too.

It seems that the two brothers reached an epiphany fighting each other.

Raph realized why Leo is leader material (which would explain why he was so upset despite getting the win), and Leo realized why he needs Raph in the team.

It's a brother thing, I guess.

^exactly. they learned to respect each other, especially if they want respect back

So very true! This is always how I've wanted to word it but failed doing so :)

I've been trying to compare the Turtles to like cliques in high school to kinda be able to relate to them a little more, and it seemed to me that they were...

Mike: Jock
Don: Geek, nerd, or just smart person (trying to find a nice way of saying it)
Leo: Overachiever (gets good grades, volunteers, has a job, does everything)

Up until a few months ago, I'd say Raph was the Bully. But the more I hear about how he protects his brothers and has good intentions in what he does, he's just not the most agreeable person in his methods, the more I thought he's like "the older brother." Everyone here has to know what I'm talking about, he's that guy that weak kids refer to when they say, "put me down or my older brother will beat you up." I think is the most accurate way you can relate Raph to people you hear about in school life or just real life, but however, I always thought Raph was like the second youngest of the four.

I always thought it went Leo was the oldest, Mike was the youngest, and Don and Raph were in the middle, but unsure of who was older. But yeah, I have a new-found respect for Raph after seeing this movie as opposed to the first two movies where he ditched his brothers just because he was getting crap from Leo about what he thought they should do rather than waiting around for info or looking for a new place to live.