TMNT and Transformers
 

Both stemmed from the 80's... Both were cartoons at some point.

Now, Kevin, if you read this... You know I loved your new adaptation of the TMNT. But my question is this:

Why is it that the TMNT has to be kiddified in a debilitating way, when another so called 'kid's' themed movie is allowed to grow and be adult? Transformers RULED. I would see that every day. It was great and action packed and had adult humor (yet was PG-13, so there were lots of kids there, too).

Mother across America are lauding Transformers, I saw in a newspaper, as good family entertainment.

Why is it that the TMNT have to be so downgraded as a kids movie, when originally it was not (because originally, it was/is an awesome comic)? If it were allowed to grow with it's audience, as Transformers has, while letting kids enjoy it, too (as Transformers did), then a sequel would not even be a doubt.

Sadly, we have wasted our TMNT chance here for a more adult movie (I'd take one for those over the age of 10, actually, at this point). Because if they do that for the next movie, people will complain. So what do we think the malfunction is?

That the studio just dropped the ball?

Such wasted potential.

But seriously. Go see Transformers, even if you didn't see it the first go round. It's awesome.

Thank you, Jo. Very very good point.

yes. I don't want to see tmnt be kiddified on the next one:)

I think the root of this problem stems from the fact that Mirage seems to be more interested in selling TMNT-themed pajamas than in delivering any adult-aimed products (and by this I primarily mean comic books, but there are plenty of other good options that could be taken if they chose to).

Mirage has nothing with which to prove to investors that there is an adult audience craving an adult movie. At the time the movie deal was made, Vol. 4 and Tales were the only adult products on the market and sales for both sucked. Vol. 4 itself sucked and I don't think there's anyone here, even those who like it, who would want a TMNT movie that looked anything like that. Tales is hit or miss, but even if it were the Best TMNT Comic Ever it's still not even particularly adult. The book self-censors 95% (or more) of its swear words. And thus, there are no TMNT items on the market that represent the kind of movie that you ask for. How can anyone be expected to invest money into something that you have no way of proving there's demand for beyond some weirdos who hang out on a handful of message boards?

Hasbro understands how to satisfy the adult collector along with the kiddies who are also essential to their business plan. They've been doing it with both Star Wars and Transformers for a long, long time. Meanwhile, the TMNT have Playmates who starts dressing the Turtles in goofy outfits the minute they've run out of ideas. There may be a ridiculous 100 different Darth Vader action figures, but Hasbro has never dressed him up in a clown outfit.

The unfortunate truth is that the kick-ass TMNT comic that we all remember in fondness died with issue 11. 11! Yeah, there were some good moments after that - Return to New York, City at War - but we're still left with an extremely small percentage of comics that run a continuing story. (And yes, I'm perfectly aware that there are plenty of other good issues around, too.)

This is why it is so important that Mirage re-establish the TMNT in the comic book market. Tales isn't enough. There needs to be a continuing story (and even though it's likely to be more Vol. 4 when that happens, it really can't be). It all goes back to everything I had to say here.

Well, true enough... But what did the Transformers have that allowed them to do this? Make an adult movie for this genre? How did they know people would still dig an old cartoon?

Did I miss something?

Or is it a fresh start for them; in which case, we had our chance and blew it, big time.

Transformers has a HUGE fanbase that is far more organized than ours. Before Dreamwave tanked, they were selling several different Transformers titles and all of them sold like crazy. There is an organized convention (I believe it is all fan-run) every year, BotCon, which has a large turnout and Hasbro always offers exclusive figures for sale at it. And the continuing toy sales. I don't know enough about Transformers to be able to offer more than that, but I do think there's plenty of positive numbers to wave around to investors.

Ohhh yeah! BotCon! I totally blanked on that. Thanks Rose.

Ugh, we need to be more organized so we can get this, too.

TMNT was a PG film because Warner Bros had specified that it would a PG film
based on the recent popularity of the 2k3 toyline. If it was up to Kevin Monroe, it would have been PG-13 film,
but they were under contract to deliver a PG film aimed at little kids who bought the toys.
The idea that TMNT would have any appeal to an older audience probably
didn't really play much a role when the film was greenlighted several years back.


Transformers was seen by Paramount/DW as a much needed summer tentpole
movie, not a kids movie like Shrek, and for that it needed to be able to appeal much larger audience it, they basically took the core
concept and remarketed it to the masses, a gamble that has apparently paid off.


Two movies with very different expections, also take into account TMNT is an animated
movie, where Transformers is live action.

The live action vs CGI shouldnt matter too much, at least not to me :P

I guess because Transformers has large companies like Hasbro and Takara backing it, while TMNT is still pretty much an indie property, in the sense that it's essentially run by one guy.

It's weird, I never realised Transformers had a continuing fanbase. I thought it was on in the 80s and this is the first time it has resurfaced, whereas with TMNT we've had various incarnations. Am I wrong on this?

I agree though, I saw the trailer for Transformers and said Awesome! Having a well established and renowned director probably helped its cause also.

Maybe Mirage should take a leaf out of Hasbro's book - for something to be so commercially successful for so many years based on a toy is inspirational and in my opinion TMNT has the potential to be so much more than it is, simply be widening the goggles slightly.

There has always been some sort of Transformers show out there (Beast Wars, and most recently Transformers Armada) and now they have a new show, but yea I too had no idea that they had a real fan base... but it is a no brainer when you think about it.

@Jenna
There's a lot of Transformers stuff out there, maybe even more than TMNT. I recommend checking it out at wikipedia if you're interested.

From what I remember, there's the old 80's cartoon. Then there's Beast Wars which is a continuation of the 80's cartoon, but it takes place before it since the transformers get sent back in time at the beginning of the series (which is why they disguise themselves as animals rather than vehicles since mankind is still "apekind" when they get there. Then there's Beast Machines which picks up where Beast Wars left off. Then there are the comic books which have had at least a couple different incarnations if I recall correctly; both Transformers and Beast Wars have had their own comic book lines. Then there's the Armada, Energon, and Cybertron series which apparently form a trilogy called the Unicron trilogy. There's also something called Transformers Generations or something, but I can't remember if that's a cartoon or a comic series. Oh, and we can't forget that old animated movie that came out long ago. Yeah, there's a lot out there.

There are at least a couple Transformers incarnations that are not canon, and I'm sure there are more incarnations that I left out. I'm not huge on Transformers myself, so I don't know much else other than what I picked up by skimming the wiki.

I'd say Transformers is probably bigger than TMNT these days. In fact, my local comic shop carries more Transformers comics than TMNT comics, and that was even before the Transformers movie came out. It is unfortunate.

Well, I knew all of that already, heh. My question is why.

And CGI vs Live Action doesn't mean one thing. There've been TONS of adult animated movies.

coooool. Thanks for the info. Maybe it's a UK thing, but I've not seen anything Transformer related since 1985ish. I was a good bit younger when I was into Transformers. Still in primary school. I used to play Transformers with the boys ;) . My favourite was Bumblebee. But it's weird, I just forgot about it. I never stopped loving TMNT. I am def going to see the film.

I think it's in large part due to the original 1986 movie. I think after that "the cat was out of the bag" so to speak. It probably just made more sense to keep going down that road than to try and go back to the more kiddy-friendly pre-movie format.

Also, while there have been many different Transformers series over the years on up to the present, Hasbro has been releasing the original figures from the old 80's line through TRU so even old fans like myself who don't care for any of the new stuff were still keeping the franchise alive and well prior to the movie.

Anyone remembered the old Transformers animated movie? I remember watching it from a local channel...

When Optimus Prime and Megatron had this last fight, in which the former got killed and Megatron turned into Galvatron? I swear, my fangirl heart broke into a million pieces.

It didn't help both sides literally turn into scraps when this giant planet-sized Transformer is eating them.

Oh, and Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime sucks. >.<

If TMNT was made like Transformers it would be 2 hours long and over half of it would be about some annoying kid who makes jokes that aren't funny flirting with some chick he has no chance with.

The turtles themselves would be nothing more then a subplot, have no character development, and all the fight scenes would have the camera shaking the entire time so you have no idea what's going on.

Want to know why Transformers is PG-13? Because Steven Spielberg was a producer. That guy can do whatever the hell he wants pretty much. If TMNT had someone like that working on it then TMNT could be whatever it wanted as well. But for some reason our turtles always get stuck with a first timer or someone who only has a few movies on their record*And ones that bombed at that* so Hollywood will have most of the say.

No offense to the TMNT directors over the years believe me I feel you guys did a fine job but with no rep you get no where in Hollywood.

I honestly liked the Turtles movie better than the Transformers ones. And keep in mind that I enjoyed watching the cartoons when I was a kid/teen for BOTH of them.

When I exited the TMNT movie, I wanted to go watch it again.

The Transformers movie was worth watching at the theatre and paying to do so, but that's about it. Not a bad movie- but not the best movie I have watched this season.

The TMNT movie made me become obsessed with TMNT. The obsession the first time around was not THAT big- possibly because I was MAJORLY obsessed with something else at the same time.

You bet I won't be getting obsessed with Transformers anytime soon. Granted, my interest in it was never all that big- but a better movie could have gotten me more interested this time around.

The TMNT movie has made me get into the comic. And the 2k3 series. And rewatch the movies. And rewatch the old toon. I have not purchased a single piece of Transformers merchandise or watched anything else from it.

Overall, in my book, the Turtles pwned the Transformers big time.

I think it's because of all the previous TMNT movies. They were aimed at kids, it was goofy. People probably wouldn't like the change, especially those who grew up with the 80s toon.

you also have to consider both cartoons when they premiered in the 80's. Even back then the Transformers were punching and blasting at each other, while the turtles were reduced to throwing pizzas at the bad guys or makin em trip on roller skates. It's still hard to make the tmnt grow up because the original series will always be in everyone's minds. Look at all the complaints from this movie, the fans were pissed that Shredder wasn't in it, nor was Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady and all the stuff they remember from the old show. Most movie goers don't even know who the hell Karai is or that there was a 2K3 show. But when you see the Transformers movie you still see Optimus, Megatron, Bumblebee, Starscream, Jazz, all the oldies you remember from the old cartoon.

Let me just start off that, IMO, Transformers was amazing and I had never seen any of the cartoon series prevoiously. So amazing that I had to see it a second time. I did not do this with TMNT although I wanted to really badly. However, I will agree with you that the Transformers movie did not make me become obsessed with everything Transformers like I became obsessed with TMNT. Because of the new TMNT movie, I was plunged into the world of TMNT that had been going on since the '80s. So far I've really only gotten into the 2K3 series and the old movies.

Basically, the producers were able to sell the idea to Steven Spielberg, who decided it would a good idea to turn into summer movie. The producers, Don Murphy and Tom Desanto, had said that a number of studios had turned down Transformers. Within Paramount there was probably just as much skepticism and doubt about the prospects of an 80's toyline as there was at Warner Bros toward TMNT.





I don't believe current popularity played a great deal in the decision to push Transformers as a big summer movie, it was just Paramount took a bigger gamble since they were more desparate for hit movies, the only really big summer movies they've had recently were Mission Impossibe 2 and War of the Worlds, both movies that relied on the star power of now exiled actor Tom Cruise.

Transformers is also relatively cheap for summer blockbuster produced at 145-150 million, any higher and Paramount would have probably had past too.





As for "Tons" of movies, you do realize the last PG-13 animated movie in wide release was Final Fantasy:Spirits Within, released back in 2001, and it was a hugh boxoffice bomb, studios aren't currently interested in PG-13 animated features, only safe and cute animal movies, no way was Warner Bros going to greenlight a PG-13 cgi movie.

I don't know why people bitch so much about missing bad guys that they remember, we get the TMNT, Splinter, April and Casey... what more do you need?

Transformers and TMNT have been around at the same time....*drum roll* 1984. However, in terms of the animated series, Transformers was around 3 year prior to TMNT.

Here is a new wrinkle but do not quote me on this. Little is known about the new Transformers animated series that will begin airing sometime in 2008 - formerly known by the working title, Transformers: Heroes. It will premeire on Cartoon Network and takes place in Detroit. Confirmed Transformers featuring the show include Optimus Prime (who will be a fire truck), Megatron, Bumblebee, Ultra Magnus, Prowl, Ratchet, Starscream, and a new Autobot character named Bulkhead.

Another wrinkle possibly a rumor...There are two sequels in development.

I feel that my childhood (1980s) is haunting me so to speak.

Here is a thread with the latest info on the new Transformer cartoon.

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=20683


Just a thought, but do you believe this new cartoon is more mature and adult then the TMNT 2k3 cartoon?

I know, frankly I was glad that he wasn't in the movie and that it wasn't a restart. I love the TMNT and all, but I didn't want another origin movie. I'm glad they went with something new and moved on. And Karai is cute too.

IMO, the Transformers movie had amazing action and awesome graphics, but it lacked in story. Mainly because they had to keep it simple when the general public probably doesn't know the story of the Autobots and the Decepticons.

But they could still have done something better other than throwing in some stupid high school romance story.

God I hope so.

Another thing, the new Transformers movie might as well been renamed "Sam and the Transformers", and who cares about Sam? Atleast the recent TMNT could have been renamed to "Raphael, Leonardo and the 2 other TMNT".

Huge Transformer Fan Here.

Love this topic. Obviously.

I loved both Transformers and TMNT recent films the same however. That is saying alot.

Mostly because I am a die hard G1 Transformers fan and although they attempted to honor G1 with getting Peter Cullen to voice Prime in the movie, the bot designs were crap and looked more like Alien creatures then Transformers. Also, didn't appreciate the heavy human focus on the story. This is after all a movie about Transformers. But it was better than nothing I suppose.

Bottomline is Transformers has actually a larger fandom then Turtles. Also sells a hell of alot more toys. Meaning Transformers is easy money.

I think what they did with Turtles in the recent movie was the best you could have expected. Making the series any darker would probably lose money. Only die hard Mirage comic fans would enjoy it and it would alienate the majority 80's cartoon fan base of Turtles.

But don't get me wrong, I would love that to happen. I just don't think they will ever reboot Turtles. But thats just my opinion.

on the same note for the reason of this topic, I watched harry potter last night during hte 10-midnight showing (I thought there's be less kids, boy was I wrong), and I have to say, even harry potter has blood now, lots more than the previous movies, and lots more vividly depicted violence. There's not much language, but even nude/kiss scenes....... (no nude shots in this one though).

My point. I also don't see why they won't take TMNT up a rating, not that a rating will change anything, god knows there is no real system to rating a movie, it's just what they choose to slap it with.

Harry Potter ends up in its own category, pretty much outside of any established rules. And the new movie is pretty tame compared to what's in the actual book, which is far more bloody and violent in the end battle.

But it isn't 1980 anymore. There's a reason anyone with any kind of common sense gets pissed at the whole "They raped my childhood!" thing anytime its brought up. And the old toon fans are getting an entire bunch of new retro goodies, so they can be provided for along with the new toon crowd.

Ignoring the fact the Transformers are alien creatures...

True.

Not necessarily. If your thinking death every ten seconds and ludicrous amounts of blood, then yeah. City at war or Shades of Grey on the other hand could fit pretty well into PG 13 rating. At the sacrifice of a couple of deaths that could probably be implied anyway true, but done right...plenty of maturity. Find away to smooth in the humour and you might end up with something that appeals to both age groups.

Batman, a franchise that's never going to shake off the Adam West rep took risks by going back to it's roots through The Dark Knight Returns and the Timm Burton movie and look at it now: Even a cartoon aimed at a younger audience still has a decent amount of the elements that make up the character.

Or people can take what they can get form it. They always do, whether it's "I'm still clinging to 1980" or "Eh, cool ten years ago."

The problem, ultimately, is as Rose said. Laird is playing too safe…if he’s playing at all.

Hahah hilarious

Cause their idiots. Plain and simple. their to stupid to enjoy something new so they'd rather watch the same things they've seen 300 times before because their not intelligent enough to process multiple characters. That and the fact that their "scared" oh NO! It might not be good so I'd rather go see a sequel because I don't know what to expect.

Hell how about you just tell me the entire movie start to finish and THEN I'll go watch it. If there's a twist I want to know that to before I go in.

Movie go'ers now of days make me puke. Their devoid morons who run away from anything with a hint of intelligence and wit behind it.

Amen on that all the way.

Ditto on that...

The bad guys we remember from the old toon weren't in the first three movies, and those did alright, (okay well maybe not 3 but still).