tmnt religion
 

Does any one think that the turtles practice a religion or some kind of belief in a higher being that they pray to? Given Splinter's back ground in Japan do you think Splinter and the turtles are practicing budists or shinto (I'm not sure if shinto is a religion or a just a set of rules) or maybe some other religion. Or do you think that some of their beliefs, because of their back ground have some unconscience religious influnces due to their back ground but don't really actively follow or believe in it?

That's funny, because I was just thinking about this subject.
Leo is pretty committed to the Code of Bushido and Buddhism (from what I can gather) much like Splinter. But the others are under-developed in this regard. In Tales 2.6, a youthful Leo states that Splinter never taught the Turtles to think much about God. In the infamous:roll: Tales 2.41, old Leo seems to be devoutly committed to the transcendental way of life, gives up killing, and discovers that forgiveness is essential to a good life.

Donatello I can see being a full-blown agnostic, highly tolerant, pluarlistic, or (perhaps) atheist. It depends on the storyteller. For example, in volume 1 #37, Don becomes a full fledged Shaman and has a mystical experience. Other times, his rationalistic and scientific mind dominates his worldview.

Michelangelo strikes me as the most hedonistic of the Turtles. Again, depends on who's writing him.

But Rapheal is an interesting case. Of all the Turtles, I think he has the greastest sense of guilt at his own inadequacies. It eats away at him; the thought that his shortcomings prohibit him from being truly loved by his father or anyone else. I think of all the Turtles he might be the most antagonistic to religion and yet the most drawn to faith. I started working on a fan fiction (I only one I've ever written I swear!) about Raph meeting a Catholic priest in a New York mission project and exploring how Raph might respond to Christianity. I never figured out where to go with it, though, and I haven't revisited that idea in years.

I wrote a short story about this about a year ago.

In Whom do I trust?

The Archie comics didn't shy away from dealing with religious themes, though it never really explored any of the Turtles having a particular faith to my knowledge. Examples: The Midnight Sun Trilogy (28-30), The Far East-Middle East trek (33-36), The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (sort of) in "United we Stand, Divided we Fall" arch (38-39, Mighty Mutanimals 6), the Underworld (46), and "The Animus War" (54-55). Interesting stories, they all were.

I wonder what the turtles think or what their impressions are on Christianity. Do they even know anything about Christanity, they live in the USA and even though religuous stuff is in the back ground in our society it's still pretty intergal as well and alot of people. Do you the turtles are a bit cynical or just indiffrent to the thought of "God" or "Budda" or maybe sort of drawn to it? I wonder if their impression on some of the fundametals on religion baffle them. Maybe they think putting your trust or relying on a greater power is ridculous and they feel that they should only rely on them selves or each other.

I think all the turtles probably have feelings of guilt over some of the action they do, not just Raph. They live a pretty harsh and violent life where themes like vengence and obligational murder are prominent which severly classhes with most religious beliefs. And even though Mikey is kind of hedonist, I think he still has morals and crisises of principle and ethics, I think he finds it harder to commit certain acts because it goes against his nature.

As for Leonardo, in all universes I've seen him, I've never watched him delve into serious religous bouts, so I don't know of any signs of Buddhism; meditation sessions may or may not be used for religious purposes, and in the turtles' case it really isn't; they use it more to help relieve their minds of fatigue and destructful issues. As for Bushido, I've said before about Bushido, it's not exactly a belief structure, just a way of life, and something all the turtles do well since they all devote their lives to protecting innocents. Also, from what I've seen of them, they're all willing to forgive and reserve killing as a last resort, after all, they only kill out of sense of duty and when it's justifiable and necessary.
As for Donatello, he is indeed the rational type, so I'd lean more toward pluralism than athiest, not just for him, but for them all, I'm pretty sure they must have some belief in a certain God, which one I don't know for sure exactly, but they won't start a war over it to anyone who believes any different than what they do.
As for Michaelangelo, again that is probably true, though not exactly a religious reference, but like Bushido, a way of life.
As for Raphael, if the turtles do ever delve into any religious bouts, I don't think he'd have a problem with it, not in a personal sort of way anyway, but the drawn to faith part makes sense.

I do think all 4 Turtles are spiritual without adhering strictly to just one religious denomination. That they take elements of Shinto and Buddhism, and of course universal elements like the Golden Rule.

Leo is definitely the most spiritual of the four. He routinely engages in meditation and other spiritual practices. I can see him wanting to learn even more and to deepen his spirituality.

Donnie would enjoy learning about the world's religions. But he is likeliest to be a deist or perhaps secular humanist. I cannot see him being a complete and total atheist- that is too negative and nihilistic for Donatello.

Raphael would definitely struggle with the concept- although he is not the only one who would experience guilt and doubt. He may turn to spirituality during hard times. Again, I cannot see him as an atheist- perhaps too hardened to be spiritual on a regular basis, but not during difficult times.

Mikey may have the easiest time believing in a higher power, but at the same time would not be exercising his spirituality all that often. If there were a fun method to do so- like one of those churches where people sing and dance- he would do so more often.

There's nothing nihilistic or negative about atheism. The believe that this is the only life you will have makes it much more precious and important; and makes the death and suffering of others much more tragic as they will not escape it in an afterlife.

Realistically, 99.9% of people are the religion of their parents, so they'd be Buddhist, or Shintoist. Although Buddhism is an atheistic religion (there's no gods) and Shintoism is almost and animist (there's a spirit in everything) sort of deal, along with a pantheon.
If they had been raised in the open, they might have picked up Christianity, but they were cut off during their formative years.

Guilt is certainly not a sign of religion, it's a sign of empathy, which is innate in human nature.

Take in to account they apparently celebrate Christmas, though it could be secularly.

I still feel they were raised whatever Splinter was raised as. So, I'd think something Asian, like Shinto, Buddhist, or Bushido.

I would guess Splinter most likely picked up whatever Yoshi was into, if the 99.9% statistic is accurate, and that got passed to the Turtles. They've been exposed to Christianity* and most likely other religions in some form or another, but I can't see them following one specific religion or way, other than Bushido and a general sense of what is "right". (For now. Perhaps when they get older they might ascribe to a set of beliefs.)

*In "Secret of the Ooze": Don made the sign of the cross after Splinter told them they could still have pizza, and Raph looked up into the sky and said "I'm bein' punished, aren't I?" when Keno got sarcastic.

I totally made up the statistic, but I think it's a clear trend. Also, for the most part, when people have a religion they tend to stick with it. indoctrination as a child is quite easy, it's just listening to your parents, but once you pass a certain age, people start looking for more material reasons for things, and that's a hard thing to do with faiths (any of them).
Since Christianity is so prevalent in the west, a lot of practices and traditions have secularized, and practically made meaningless. I think things like appealing to god, or making the cross are like sticking up your middle finger; it's just a kind of short hand, that the user doesn't think too deeply about the meaning of.

Heh, I just had to plug this video.

This probably won't be for everybody, but I think it's a hilarious parody:
Teenage Mutant "Christian" Turtles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3zID-htRfA

It's probably a pretty high percentage, anyway. I know it's true in my case.

Lol...isn't that one definition of faith? "Belief that is not based on proof"?

That's kind of a harsh analogy, imo. Personally I've never seen the sign of the cross used as flippantly as the middle finger. That's not to say it isn't being done.

I just mentioned these to point out that they obviously picked up on some religious things. I couldn't say whether or not it actually means anything to them, but they seem to have gotten the gist of it. (I think we're in agreement on this point.)

In TMNT Adventures 28 Splinter explained the Japanese Creation myth and Raphael went "That's a cool twist. A blind god is something i could believe in.." Course he was being all sarcastic about it. It wasn't mentioned what he thought of Izanagi and Izanami after they saved the turtles 2 issues later tho.

But I have to say that one of my fave Christian songs is "What if Cartoons Got Saved". The only Christian song I believe to ever mention the TMNT.

*sings* I was thinking the other day, what if cartoons got saved? They'd be singing praise in a whole new way. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles singing Cowabunga-luia dude!

Oh that TMNT as bible thumpers vid was hilarious!! I was totally cracking up when Raphael said "Fiddlesticks!!" mostly cuz I say that all the time! :lol:

Sometimes people make the cross with their fingers when making a joke that something is scary (like someone gets an ugly haircut and you do the cross thing like the hair is evil) that's pretty flippant. I didn't mean anything by the finger, it's just teh first example I thought of, but it's just as true with the thumbs up.

I agree the turtles picked up certain things (anyone living here would) but I don't think they are necessarily religious; they've been adapted into secular culture and lost their meanings.

Faith is belief without evidence, I'm just saying that it isn't typically something that pops up late in life; not without reason. The people that do convert typically do it because they've had some experience that convinced them it was true (whether the experience is real, or in their mind isn't important).

TMNT Adventures
 

The TMNT Adventures was much more about religion than the 1987 TMNT cartoon.

Oh, THAT kind of cross. Ok, that makes sense.

Well, depends on what TMNT-universe :P But here's my take on religion in the Mirage-comics

Leo: Probably some religion from Japan, that he's been taught by Splinter

Raph: I think he'd be an agnostic...

Mike: Umm... Agnostic, or possibly some kind of own belief... Like me, I do believe in reincarnation but not in any god, but I'm no Buddhist

Don: Atheist, I guess

It's as much of a religion as Buddhism, which is to say "not at all". They are both mainly disciplines, yet based on spiritual ideals (the universal 'karmic justice' and such). 'Religion' generally implies the worship of a deity. But, to call them faiths is completely accurate.
So, how'd the Turtles get it? They might be humanoid, but they aren't human... And, animals don't have souls, right? :P <== (notice the joke-face)
Translation: They were just jokes. They were probably just emulating things they had seen on television. Or maybe the writers didn't give a poop if the Turtles were Christian or not (much like public school teachers towards their students). Similarly, by exclaiming, "goddamnit", belief in a god is irrelevant. But, one can't hardly live in America without being exposed to Christianity, even if it is in this manner.

Wow, amazed that this didn't become a flame war. I guess I need to have more faith in the Technodromers (pun not intended).

Anyway, I think the TMNT's religious views are up to every fan's interpretation. It's not like Nightcrawler from the X-Men where his faith is an important part of the character.

Anyway, I don't get the assumption that Donatello is an atheist just because he's the scientist of the group. He might be the least likely to have a literal interpretation of scripture, but there are plenty of scientists who are also people of faith.

An example of a fictional character would be Beast from the X-Men.

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Beast.html

It's all in the eye of the beholder and is up to interpretation. I can understand the defense because I'm sure many atheists are not nihilists, but at the same time there are probably still people who do not have the positive outlook that you may have. Plus atheism does not necessarily exclude the possibility of an afterlife. I don't think it makes sense to pigeonhole beliefs, because like people they come in many, many varieties.

Mikey can't be a hedonist, I thought being hedonistic was the same as being addicted to sex. Some how being what he is I don't Mikey has had verey many much of that. :o

I would think the turtles would not have any faith at all since they all started out as animals and animals have no concept of religion and higher beings, since that is mostly a human trait born from society and the turtles never had that.

Hedonism focuses on indulgence, but there are plenty more than just sex. 'Overeating' for eample.
:| I was just joking about this earlier, but if I don't see every single pet I owned up in heaven (except the canibalistic hamsters I had), I'm dragging my ectoplasm elsewhere.

Agreed...

I just wanted to say that I am impressed and pleased with behavior thus far... this thread has been pleasant and insightful. :)


*You may now resume your discussion*

The turtles have been humanoid for most of their lives, though.

By that logic the turtles wouldn't have any concept of culture either, or anything aside from eating and walking around.

That's right. Elephants don't make periodical pilgrimages to the graveyard of their ancestors. No animal has the capacity to learn mating rituals or parenting practices. Animals are such inferior beings. :roll:

Fine, I simplified the wondrous world we live in.

My point is that the Ninja Turtles can't really be compared to other animals because they've shared more similarities with human beings for most of their lives.

Michelangelo had sex in the mirage comics in vol 4 with an alien princess. So...yeah, as creepy as that may be he did manage to get laid in the comics universe, and apparently enjoyed it. Defination of a hedonist: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hedonist

as for my opinion on all this? I think the boys are all fundmentaly atheists. There's no way they are Christian, jewish, muslim, budist, or even shinto.

There's no telling what they really believe. It doesn't matter anyway. Like I said it isn't an important aspect of their characters like it is with Nightcrawler. They probably would adopt whatever Splinter believed in.

Now that i think about it, I wonder if Splinter would run the risk of incoporating any religous doctine in the turtles upbringing. Some how I don't think Splinter would teach the boys a belief system that might put their trust and morals in anything other than what Splinter wants them to have. I think Splinter would want the turtles to listen and obey only what he thinks is right or wrong and what ever principles he instills in the turtles. Not some God that might cause the turtles to value a supposed higher power over him. I think Splinter would naturally discourage any kind of Christian doctrine or any other religious belief system because that whole doctrine would conflict with how the way turtles where being raised. Maybe the turtles only beliefs are the code of the warrior.

Of course there are negative atheists, just as there are negative theists. I think religion is one of the worst indicators of a person's character. Specific events in a person's own life have more effect on someone's mood than philosophy does.

That might be true, since the training they got from him was only for the purpose of killing the shredder...

666
 

I don't think character can be judged by religion. If that were the case, Fred Phelps would be considered an upstanding guy. But I think religion can have a positive influence on people, especially when it preaches loving your neighbor and being giving. It does tick me off when people blame every horrible thing in history on religion. It's really closed minded, and like you said religion doesn't necessarily indicate someone's character, for better or for worse. It's all about who the person is inside based on many influences.

Kind of like how communist countries discouraged religion?

:)
Splinter strikes me as an open-minded type. I don't think he would discourage the Turtles from seeking out religion. Just because he wore pink in the OT doesn't mean he's a commie:D

Splinter would teach the Turtles about his spirituality. I think he would also encourage- or at least allow- the Turtles to learn about other kinds of spirituality. While Splinter is quite spiritual, he does not strike me as the uber-scrupulous type who HAS to do things a certain way and who would think it horrendous to even consider attending services or practices of even another denomination, let alone religion. He may be disappointed if one of the Turtles goes the atheist route, but he will not disown them or anything.

I don't think so.. You get disappointed in your kids for doing drugs, crimes or each other (:o).. I saw a documentary called Nunnan (The Nun) which was about an 18-year old who had decided to become a nun.. And her family was very Christian, and I mean VERY Christian, but one of her brothers was agnostic and her parents weren't disappointed.. At least they said they weren't :P

leo a budist or some kind of japanese religion. don and mikey catholics. raph i see prob' an atheist, since most atheists i know are pissed off about somethin' :lol:

Yeah. Splinter was best buds with the Dalhi Llama who was oddly enough an actual Llama. Course then he died and was reborn as a human. Don and Splinter were the midwives of sorts for that birth.

And Ya can't forget Jagwar's mother who went on a spiritual quest to the paths of enlightenment. Jaguar (Jagwar's father) was one of those paths, the god of death aka Yaotl.

According to the CIA's "World Fact Book", 84% of Japan's population observes an atheistic faith. So, why would Splinter be disappointed?
You can add me to that list as I'm pissed about people using religeon as an excuse to commit atrocities (not 'all' people, mind you... some of the best people I've known were primarily religious souls).

Splinter not showing the turtles religion because it might make them disobey him, seems pretty ruthless and coniving for Splinter to do. I agree that Splinter wouldn't want the turtles to get soft from another cultures ethical views and question their warrior code. but I don't think Splinter would consciencly keep that out of the turtles upbringing so that they won't question his views. :o