After Peter wraps up Volume 4, where do you see the comic franchise headed?
 

I believe Pete's said some stuff along the lines that Volume 4 will be wrapped up in about 12 or so future issues, but given how long it takes him to release these issues we could be looking at it still going for a number of years yet.

In any case, assuming Volume 4 is "concluded" in some form, what do you think will happen to the comic franchise? Will a "Volume 5" be started with an entire new development staff, or perhaps published by a different company like Image did with Volume 3?

The Image run got some mixed reactions from the fanbase, so I don't know if Mirage would let another publishing company handle the plots and stuff again. What do you think will happen?

I doubt he even knows the answer to that. TMNT has alot of potential in any medium, so hopefully they continue it in some way. Personally I'd like to see a new staff start over fresh rather than build upon the current continuity, if this happens Pete better choose wisely...

I think a Volume 5 would be appropriate, but something that essentially did the same thing as a reboot. It wouldn't rewrite continuity the way the Ultimate and Allstar universes have, it would just give the Turtles a completely new set of back-up cast members and villains, while retaining the iconic old ones (Casey, April), without making getting too bogged down in continuity. Certain big events can be alluded to quite easily, and if trades are published of said events next year, there wouldn't really be a need to start over (#1-11 + micros, Return to NY, CAW, Volume 2, and 4).
You throw the turtles into a relatively new situation that is familiar all the same, but you mix it up. You could even get away with bringing in a new Shredder, one that doesn't necessarily have to be personally tied to Splinter or the Turtles (the mantle alone does that already).
If Spiderman can reboot, bringing back characters like Harry Osborne, and throwing all new ones into the mix, any comic can. People just need to be willing to give it a go, both on the company end and the fan end.

Probably with Tristan on that.

I like it!

There are two things I would like to see focused on in a reimagined Volume 5:
1. Teenage Turtles
2. Ninja Turtles

:tgrin:

I've always thought a shortening to just "Ninja Turtles" at some point seemed a sensible evolution.

Not terribly interested in them returning to their teens, though, aside from Lost Stories-type stuff.

I wouldn't mind seeing them in their teens again. But I'd be interesting to see them in their early twenties in stories. It'd be nice to see a fresh start.

I think Mirage will shut the door on publishing. *If* there are more comics, they will be licensed, based on TV shows, like Titan's short-lived Fast Forward series.

Definitely with you there.

1. If by "Teenage" you mean "18-years-old" and "finishing up the events of Volume 3" I can go for it.

2. Agreed. Very agreed.

You never know. If it were to happen, I'd personally like to see IDW pick it up. They've done the Transformers ludicrous justice by publishing stories from all continuities. With Turtles you could easily have stuff based on the shows, movies and original continuity.

I could totally dig that. Similar to the Thundercats comics my girlfriend has.

I've always wondered if Laird would ever hire artists from Marvel, DC, IDW, Image, or Dark Horse. Eh, I kinda doubt it, but it would be pretty cool. There are a lot of possibilities for a so called "volume 5".

I'd love to see what DC or Marvel could do with the turtles. If either company picked it up it would be pretty darn big and available in more places

If we're lucky? IT get licenced to Image.

IF Gary's still there? All comics go out of print forever.

They actually were celebrating their 19th birthdays in the last issue of Volume 3.

And if DC or Marvel acquired TMNT... I don't think that'd be a good thing at all. Short of a massive, massive earth-shaking premiere and extraordinary buzz from Wizard, etc., I don't think either company would let the TMNT continue seeing print beyond the first 7 or so issues -- their cancellation threshold is much higher than something indy like Mirage... they routinely cancel books selling 15,000 copies or so.

TMNT/Tales of the TMNT sells an average of about 3,400 or so.

Then again, with someone actually Advertising and distributing these comics properly, they might not be doing so crappily.

I echo these sentiments. If more people knew about the book it would be doing a lot better.

Exactly. With a big name company behind it and proper promotion people would pick up the books.

Just like the whole world rushed out and picked up Batman and Iron Man comics this summer? The people I've talked to at Marvel and DC say they've not seen a significant bump up in sales on those comics which couldn't have asked for better promotion this summer...

I said in another thread that part of the issue is the US economy, as well as the comics industry in general. It's not *just* that Mirage doesn't promote the books...

Point is, when a company isn't even giving promotion to big name books WITHIN comics circles, there is a problem. Furthermore, the people I've talk to generally say Iron man brough in new people for a while, though batman's to non comicbook saturated at this point to be of much help.

It would be like if marvel had just solicited the Brubaker Captain America and not given it any press whatsoever. I'm willing to bet it would have gotten significantly lower sales if it had used the (almost entirely fictitious) mirage advertising method.

TMNT are too. That's why Mirage focuses on licensing and not on publishing. I really don't believe that promoting would make *that* much of a difference. They have become way too much of a licensing giant, and (to use your term) non-comic book saturated like Batman, Superman, and Spider-man...

Yea, its all saturation's fault.. Mirage Refusing to sell to bookstores. Mirage doing No real advertising whatsoever until the 25th came up, and even then virtually no comics advertising.

Not buying it. Even batman/superman/spiderman receive advertising to comics fans. And almost any publisher tries to break the bookstore market. Gary? Zilch. I'm not even sure I blame peter here. He seems to be just laying his hands off. It would probably be fore the best (given his seeming disinterest in business matters) had someone who failed to understand even the basics of
A: Business
and
B: Comics

not been appointed as CEO.

Heck, I can at least give Joe Quesada and Co. credit for knowing to hype their books and advertise them. Even the NON comics Turtles stuff it treated so badly it's hard not to giggle.

I stand by the belief that if the book got a little more exposure, more people would be reading, but I don't think that either DC or Marvel will do TMNT the justice people think they might. Sure, they might promote the **** out of it when they get it, but what after that?
When Wildstorm got the New Line Horror franchises they did pretty well to begin with, but the sales have been dire and SINCE they got the licenses, they've done nothing to promote it.
IF Turtles were to go somewhere else for comic publishing, I think IDW and Dynamite, with Image and Dark Horse being the long shots.

I was always under the impression that Trades sold better in the wake of a movie (or anticipation of) over the comics themselves... I hadn't seen a copy of Watchmen on the shelves in a while, nor the Long Halloween, and now that Hellboy 2 is out I think there'll be a spike there too. Sin City was the same.

Marvel would have someone offer the Turtles a chance to bring back Splinter if it meant never meeting April, and they would take it. DC would merge all of the TMNT universes into one due to an irate Michelangelo who is striking the barrier of reality until it shatters. He will then turn evil and kill 60% of the population of this combined universe.

I don't know, Dark horse Does the Usagi floppies. Makes more sense.

And your right. Bookstores report much higher sales increases for character books after movies than the direct market.

Shame mirage won't be seeing that for any future films/tv shows as long as Gary's around...

Like I said before, it's not JUST the lack of marketing. I will say, since apparently it's being ignored here, that Mirage traditionally does take out full page ads for their comics in PREVIEWS, the comics soliciting magazine. Plus Tales #50 got a lot of press in its issue of Previews. So there *is* some marketing in comic sales.

The bookstore trades crowd are NOT the primary comics crowd. And again, you are ignoring the issues that are plaguing the economy and industry generally.

Big publicity is not the save-all answer. You can not buy it all you want. You can believe that getting a big company behind it will save the comics. It won't. Why do you think Titan didn't renew their license after a year? It's because they (who *do* market the hell out of their publications...) didn't sell enough to warrant the series. And I can hear you saying "well they didn't try in the US..." but the truth is that the UK market is about 100% hotter for comics and comics-related merchandise right now. If it wouldn't have made it in the UK, it wouldn't have made it here.

I can also tell you that Marvel and DC have less than no interest in TMNT. I can't tell you how I know that, but in recent weeks, in meetings I've had, its been discussed. Why don't they want it? Because they don't feel its a franchise that will support comics. Period. Its too niche a franchise, comic wise.

The TMNT comics fans that post on boards like this are hardcore. Mainstream TMNT audience? Not really there enough to warrant the comics generally.

:lol:

I'm talking more in terms of companies doing justice to licensed products. I could definitely see Dark Horse doing TMNT, but I think with Star Wars and some of their other licenses, it could be something they'd pass on. I could be totally wrong of course. And simply because Usagi is at Dark Horse doesn't mean it'll save Turtles. I don't see Usagi getting promoted all that much. Most of Usagi's readership comes down to the loyal fans, the ones who've been there since the start.

Admittedly it is EASIER for a newcomer to get on board, when you look at how Dark Horse reprints the older stories...

They haven't done that in a while though, I think when the shift happened in editorial the full-pagers stopped happening. The other thing is that not everybody gets Previews. Most of the posts I see over at newsarama and the other websites asking about Turtles are coming from people who only have a casual/leisurely interest in comics. They get what they want and if they see or hear about something online, they'll ask about it in the shops. I'm positive that a very small percentage of comic readers here wouldn't pick up Previews . That Spotlight wasn't something that was paid for either, the Previews people actually pick out what they believe might be worth checking out.



No, this is true, but from my time working in a comic store, and having friends still running their own, trades do far better business than single issues. The number of times I hear of "fans" picking up their collected editions from Borders here is pretty insane, especially at their mark-ups.


You're right, it's not the save-all, but it certainly helps, which I'll get to later.

The European comics market is also vastly different to the US one.

Axel Alonso told me himself that he didn't even realise there was still a comic book, and that he thought the comics were based on the TV show. That certainly says something to me.

This is why the smaller-bigger companies are the ones that I could see working the Turtles. All it takes is a company willing to give something a go. If Marvel or DC aren't willing to do that, then it won't happen. This is why I suggested IDW or Dynamite. Numbers aside, Army of Darkness is pretty niche, Transformers, CSI, Galaxy Quest, Silent Hill, The Lone Ranger, The Man with No Name. Even Dark Horse, look at Usagi, Hellboy, BPRD... these are all titles I'm positive the same thing would be said about. Street Fighter over at Udon is another good example...

...as far as I was aware there was no real "mainstream" audience for the comics, and this goes right back to what I think is the main argument being talked about here: the comics don't get enough publicity. Because people don't know anything about them, they don't have any interest in it. Unless they genuinely want to check it out, people won't go looking for the comic section of the TMNT website.

Half the reason I check out a lot of the new material I do is because I've seen a preview or an interview or something like that, on a website or a magazine with some decent exposure. Some piece of promotion, even if it's just some little indie project that a guy has flaunted up on a message board.

I rarely go into comic shops and look at things I don't already know about beforehand. If I do, it's usually a trade or a back issue, and one of the most common complaints I hear about the Turtles comics is that nobody stocks them, so even if people did go into a comic shop to just peruse the racks and stumble upon something new, Turtles isn't there for it to happen, because retailers spend more time looking at the trends online than they do paying attention to the smaller books in Previews.

Yea, a full page add in previews. And that means what these days? Next to nothing. Allowing papercut to publish Image turtles when they had interest? (oops, they'd have to share the profits from something they weren't even paying to print. horrible) Creator interviews online that are with CURRENT writers/artists? Ones that go into why their work is worth reading as opposed to part of the "multimedia complex"? Have the guys tried a Free comic book day Item? (even a newsprint quality ashcan?) Manga sized reprints? (did wonders for Runaways and SMLMJ) Posters with release dates? Readily available trades of past issues? (oh, wait, peter hasn't finished george lucasing those...)

No? Huh. Fancy that.

Even with these things though, It would be best to accept realistic sales numbers for a black and white indie book, but that's a horse of a different color.

Alot of comics more than make up for lower sales in comic shops in bookstores. Or even (once their run is finished) make most of their pofit after completion (BONE, anyone?) Look at usagi. Most of it's money comes from trades at this point. And frankly, that book has ALOT of overlap appeal with turtles, down to fandom. I've had to point out the mirage website as where to get turtles TPB's to Fans of Sakai's work who were curious a number of times, because they thought it was all long out of print (ironically, alot of them just give up when they find out the First trade is long gone with no sign of return)

And Ninja turtles has been having it's current problems for years, so the current economic and industry problems aren't the main problem. Or even a significant one for the purpose of discussing what is wrong with the franchise as is. Unless your talking about the going on 20 years death of floppies.


I never said it was the end all be all, just that what mirage is currently doing is so little they should feel LUCKY to sell over 1500 issues of anything.

Titan not renewing their license doesn't surprise me, they had better things to spend their money on for one, and frankly I doubt they saw the fee as a fair trade off. To say nothing of the fact the british have much less recognition for the TMNT than they should. Its also funny you fail to mention the non english language publishers that ARE still producing original work. Heck, I think I have some italian comics around here somewhere with leo vs Hun...

Yea. That wasn't my point in bringing up marvel and I thought that was obvious. Quite simply I was pointing out they can use hype to up the sales of a book significantly better than Mirage can.

To be honest, I'd never want Marvel or DC near the turtles. They're a bit too... cookie cutter to really do something this offbeat. Image might work better, dark horse could probably do it, IDW could.


Frankly, when in comes to business decisions, I'm usually more pessimistic about the reality of the profitability of things I like. I even admit when something I like couldn't be profitable in the foreseeable future (like an ANARKY ongoing, or bringing over any number of foreign TV shows). That does not, however, mean that I cannot find flaws (especially obvious ones) in the marketing scheme of the people running the show in a given situation. As I said, while the comics have gotten the shortest stick, at this point all of TMNT is being treated lousy when in comes to marketing.




Yea, that was funny

True. And dark horse reprint policy is a big factor. A bunch of quick, available material helps build fanbase. And they are GOOD at non-comic shop sales.

Cant' even remember the last time I saw one in previews. Fact is, you can't rely on previews. Heck, try to get some exposure in wizard if nothign else.

It's how they make up for the 40 percent off coupons.

Glad to have someone simplify my comments

To me as well. For one, it tells me that DC would be an even less stellar choice than i thought. For another it tells me that Lard really should consider an Anthology book including some archie style/old toon style stories occasionally as a way to up profits. There are other implications, but not that I'm goign to waste my time on here.


Indeed. I didn't even think of Udon. But I think HBOY, SW, and USAGI help prove DarkHorse can handle unusual or varied material.

IDW would be good, Dynamite would do great simply for the major talent they like to use.

Heck, SLave labor graphics is doing great things with Gargoyles right now, and it's one of their more profitable franchise (AND they have to deal with Disney level red tape)



Agreed in entirety.

Actually, I was working on a project recently and asked Gary about FCBD, it's definitely something that's on the agenda, but there hasn't been any discussion yet on what to put out there for it. I know some publishers put out reprints and some put out new material. New material would be cool, but for a free book it's an extremely costly venture for Mirage on both fronts.


I think everyone knows that "canon/continuity" trades of TMNT would do well. But when you consider how EPIC Usagi is in terms of story telling, and how frequently new issues come out, Usagi wipes the floor with the Turtles. This is why I think a monthly Volume 5 would be good, so long as Vol.1,2, maybe 3 and definitely 4, and both volumes of Tales get collected.


If Peter David is to be believed, the licensing fee was the main reason the Dreamwave books were canceled. Knowing about Dreamwave's financial debacles, it could just be them being cheap bastards...

I think Otter Press here in Australia are considering reprinting the Titan material here in Australia. Hopefully this is the case...

I think the promotional aspect of the last film was atrocious. True, it did fairly well in its opening week, but I think most of the promotional efforts came from Mirage and Playmates with the comics and figures respectively.

I think everyone who acted up about Murph's blog shot themselves in the feet, but so far 4kids have been doing okay with the Turtle blog.

Trust me, I'd love to, but those are tough eggs to crack. I'm going to try and help promote #50 as best I can myself. I know Dan's dropped some Stan Lee style promos in his interviews (thanks again mate!). See my comments in my last post as to my thoughts on Previews as a promotional tool though...

Yeah true, my thoughts were just that with a number of their properties being as big as they are now, they may be interested in picking up tMNT, but ultimately I think they'd pass on it.


Oh god. Please not SLG. They do really good books, but TMNT would be coming out less frequently than Vol.4

Cool. I think a reprint of Issue 1 would work if nothing else. Or even a sampler of some sort.


Not denying that, just pointing out similarities in market and availablility problems.

Yea, they basically dropped stuff that didn't make alot of money out the door, and then didn't pay anyone.

Sounds like you'll have something to barter for the Real ghostbusters

heck, even the shows get no advertising when they come on. It's pathetic.

agreed in general.

I said try, not DO. :)

Besides, it was an example. Glad to know Dan's helping though.

Oh, I agree there. I was just listing an example, and why they'd be good.

Well, in fairness, alot of that has to do with Red tape on their licensed books. It's nearly impossible to get Disney to clear something. The other books though, yea, those show a bit of a problem.

Yeah I know what you mean

Back to what I want to see after Volume four. I just wanna see a re-vamp of the franchise. Younger turtles, lots more action, etc. A kind of story telling we really haven't seen in a long time in the franchise. A more serious and dramatic things to take place. Personally, I'd love to see a new book back with Splinter in it. I was really against him being dead, but I guess it had to happen sometime.

You could virtually pick any point between Volume 2 (and/or 3) and 4 and go from there. You can get away with a revamp, not really rely on too much continuity and have Splinter alive without getting up people's bums about starting all over.

Yeah. That's what I'd like to see. I'd really love to see it become more action oriented. A bunch of panels of crazy fights and what not.

It just needs a firm direction. And clearly defined storylines with beginnings and ends and hot artists. I'm perfectly OK with having one arc about bloody, balls-out ninja action (say, a Chinese Triad comes to town and muscles in on the Foot, and the TMNT get in the middle), the next arc about the TMNT going on a space adventure, then the next arc the TMNT just relaxing, having beers and maybe try to scare away one of Shadow's boyfriends or something... all of which, perhaps some singular threat looming over all the arcs, culminating in a later arc or something that leads to a big payoff. Rinse, repeat, etc..

It's just all about direction.

And if you ask me, if the only black and white we're going to be given is to be duotone-less or with the quickie Photoshop tone business, I'm not terribly interested in black and white TMNT comics at all. I doubt the general public is either. Might as well go color, with some of the more talented digital colorists out there. It's amazing what they can do now.

Be careful what you wish for.