There's Only One Man Who Could Save the Turtles...
 

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Unfortunately he severed ties to the characters he created. :cry:

Seriously though, while I like Peter's high-concept stories, what the Turtle comics needed for the 21st century was the attitude his style brings. The first part of this decade saw the proliferation of comics becoming harder, grittier, and edgier than ever before and the Turtles made a complete 180 from that direction when it should have been embraced.

Many may disagree with me, but take a look at what comics sell strongly: those that deal with dark, gritty materials and whose characters have some demons to work out. Even mainstream publishers have a harder edge to them to the point where most comics are geared toward the mature reader.
To illustrate a more recent example is Tristan's stories in Tales being wildly popular. Why? Because it felt like the Turtles of old. He had the Foot, he had the grit.

If the Turtles had went back to their roots and relaunched, they may still be going strong. But instead we had a continuation of their story, and while I do like seeing the guys get older and getting a glimpse into their lives now, the majority of the public would rather see them as teenagers kicking ass and taking names.

I agree that Kevin Eastman needs to join forces with Peter Laird again for the best TMNT possible. But I disagree that the TMNT have to go back to being teenagers again in the comics. Everyone grows up. I like that the TMNT have aged. Makes them more real that way.

You mean comics became nothing but shock-value bore-fests which have since come back to bite them in the ass?

TMNT did that for a very good reason: The major titles produce nothing but gritty and "edgy" nonsense over genuine substance and characterisation. Old-school titles which focus on high-concept or HONEST progression are far superior.

Agree with Zarius on this one, the direction comics are taking is the reason they started tanking even before the economic situation. The problems with Turtles aren't strictly grit related, although a little more might help, they're related to marketing and lack of fresh blood or even old blood. The turtles are anemic at present.

If Heavy Metal ever became the primary publisher of the turtles...I would pretty much **** a pile of bricks.

not that I don't like Kevin, but why do so many people villify Peter and raise up Kevin so much?

what makes you think kevin would do any better? the only reason the comics are failing right now is because there is no flagship title. if ther were a main book, then tales has a reason to exist, as it supplements the core title. tales without the core title is a random mash of stories. if there was some continuity to the books instead of breaking the moo mesa story up over seven issue intervals then it migt do better.

I'd say it's their difference in personalities that does it, I can't speak for everyone but that's how I see it.
Kevin seems more down to earth, while Peter seems to talk down to people more often than not.

God, this argument is as old as undue veneration of Eastman is ridiculous.

The best TMNT seems to come from both co-creators at the wheel (although there've been great concepts and writing from people like Murphy and Lawson).

Personally, I like the more subdued stories of Laird. I like the direction alot. I think that a more balls-to-the-wall Eastman direction might help the book sell more, but I still think the ideal is to have both men working on it, or even someone fresh.

Maybe that's because Laird still bears responsibility for the franchise, while Eastman does not. When people talk to Laird it's always something like "Boo, why are you doing this with the stories?", while when they talk to Eastman it's always "We miss you. Your Turtles were so awesome." How can you not expect differing reactions under those circumstances?

First, I must apologize for not finishing a thought. I was distracted and realized the time and had to leave so I did not complete my post.

As far as the guys being teenagers, I prefer them aging as well, that was what I was going to say next. But to the general public, the best thing for the Turtles may very well be a reboot of sorts since they may not understand "Okay, why are they teens in this series but in this one here they're all in their thirties?".

Not entirely, no. Look at all the major events that have taken place over the last few years with the Big Two. Say what you will with Bendis, but he has crafted a pretty intricate story that has helped steer Marvel to the forefront of comics for the moment. DC also has had high-caliber arcs as well. Many of concepts were not meant for children, as many, MANY books out today are, and some even have rather graphic depictions of violence, but the way it was crafted into the story was done tastefully and was an integral part of the story rather than some squandered panel meant for shock. By no means am I saying turn the Turtles into The Authority or Kick-Ass. Perhaps more along the lines of Dynamite's Project Superpowers, which takes Golden Age characters and bring them to modern times, in a very literal sense, and present them to a world that is much like our own.

I mainly wanted a reason to use that topic headline. I never villified Peter not put Kevin on a pedestal, as I enjoy Peter's stories and the development he wishes to provide the guys. What I meant was the Turtles lack the harder edge they had when Kevin was part of the team. Kevin and Peter are yin and yang almost personified (if only one was female...er, scratch that:P.) in terms of what each brought to the team.

As far as writers and such, Murphy is probably my favorite writer as the very first Mirage book I picked up was written by Murph.

I am not sure Kevin is the one to save the Turtles. I have no problem with Pete running the show, however, I do feel that maybe some new blood needs to injected to the Turtles. You know just change it up a little bit.

I'd rather not. There pretty much all the same s*it.

I don't credit people with making people act out-of-character and granting several strong female characters ridiculous deaths and scizophrensic mood swings. Bendis' best stuff has been Ultimate Spider-Man, Alias, and ressurecting Mockingbird. That's it. He was stretched far too thin for the last three years, he wrote the ABYSMAL Avengers Dissassembled as well...which still makes anything by Jeph Loeb look like tears curing lukemia.

I don't reward stupidity. Marvel are only getting by on shock value and I don't rate market strategy like that. It's void of originality and intelligence.

Bendis is a flavour of the month sensationalist at his worst and a great character writer at his best in a liberated universe, keep him where he can do the most good, not places where he loses sight of his own horizons

"Dark and gritty" does not necessarily make for a good book. Otherwise, every character created in the 90's would have had the same staying power as Marvel and DC's core characters.

To me a mature comic is one that takes the time to come up with a well thought out storyline and characters that make the reader want to pick up the next issue, as opposed to say...those silver age DC comics which had a lot of hokey stories that didn't apply to any ongoing storyline. There are tons of "dark" and "gritty" comics that are far from mature.

"Edginess" is not the answer. The current TMNT comics are not easy for new readers to get into. Other comics have many decades of back stories, but they also always have "jumping on" points for new readers. Someone trying to understand the TMNT comics now would be really confused: what's with all of the aliens? Casey has a daughter? Where are the foot clan?

It also helps to have the older comics easily available for new readers in the form of graphic novels.

Kevin isn't involved with the turtles, and thus is free of any criticism that may currently be given at the handling of the TMNT franchise.

I don't know why I bother.

Yes, but have you given him reason to?

I'm just saying, if roles were reversed and Eastman was sole owner of the TMNT and had some of us fans say to him the things we say to Peter, he'd probably be "an ass" to us too.

I don't know why I bother.

I know Peter's history...but do you really think if Kevin Eastman had the same things said to him, he wouldn't also act the same, defencive way?

I don't know why I bother.

Examples? I know he has been defensive in the last few years. I don't blame him for being defensive, but from what I've read he could have approached it in a nicer way.

I've met Peter Laird twice, and I can say that he's been nice to me. He even complimented my art and got a kick out of a drawing I gave him.

Unfortunately I haven't met Kevin Eastman yet.

I don't know why I bother.

Soooo we're comparing Peter's web demeanor to Kevin's one on one personal demeanor? That seems like the results could be a bit skewed.

have you ever told kevin you didn't like his work?

I'm done with this.

I suck and am clearly not in sound mind. Fire away.

Hang on a sec...

I've been reading and just want to say... I don't think their confusion of your personal thing with Peter means that they want to go after You. They just can't see why you're so vehemently against everything the man's done. I think the rushed decision editing your posts away is just going to confuse people more.

I know *some* of what's happened between the two of you. I just think it's a matter of not knowing the whole backstory of your individual experience...

And I'm sorry if I came off as a tad snarky Rose. I consider you a friend, I really do, but the constant battle between you and Peter Laird has jaded your view of the man, and I'm sure it's jaded his view of you and maybe even other fans. Please understand that it can get pretty old when all you see is fawning over Eastman and constant nagging and griping being directed at Laird. 'Sall I'm saying.

I'm not vehemently against everything the man's ever done. My original statement was a fact that I shouldn't have to defend and it was not my intention or desire to go into length about the issues I do have with Peter. This happens every time I express any such opinions about him, and it's getting a bit old. I have my reasons and they're not all the business of the entire world to know, so I don't know why that expectation exists.

Do you think I ****ing like being known for virtually nothing else beyond hatin' on Peter Laird? No, I don't. It kinda really sucks more than any of you could ever realize. Obviously this hasn't stopped me from speaking my mind. I'm guilty. I suck. Etc., etc.

And I am so through with this conversation.

I didn't say that you have to divulge everything. I just said that people aren't going to understand. And I Never Ever said you couldn't share your opinion. We get a lot of new people that visit who aren't going to understand. That's just how it is on forums.

You're welcomed to speak here just as much as everyone else. And that's all I'll say about this conversation as well...

Although the fact Eastman is more Hands on as an owner for Heavy Metal is a pretty good sign he'd have burned Gary by now...

I agree, there is only one man that can save the TMNT

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/m...bVanDam118.jpg

(I know a few of you saw that coming.)

Amen, brother.... :thumbsup:

Lol, say, did you know RVD owns a comic shop in Texas?

I dunno about Kevin Eastman anymore. I mean, he's a great guy personally, met him in 99. Creative as hell, and a real man's man. If I had to have a beer and shoot the sh*t with either Kevin or Peter, I'd probably grab a beer and hang with Kevin for a few rounds.

As far as the TMNT go, though, I know he has the right idea in his head as far as the comics go (Kevin has always been the proponent of the Ronin-influence, the ninja stuff, the Miller-esque vibe at times... things Peter seems to have a distaste for)... but when left in charge of the larger franchise itself, he gave us Ninja Turtles: The Next Mutation, which was 100% his baby (Laird quietly disowned it early into development). And he had a bunch of interviews before NT:TNM came out talking about how dark it was going to be, and the TMNT were going to be grittier than in the movies.

So yeah... that fiasco sort of strained his credibility with me as any kind of TMNT savior back then.

And then a few years later Kevin just goes and cashes his chips out and sells all the rights to Laird... literally selling out.

I know Kevin gets irritated when people say this because he still gets royalties on things pre-rights turnover (or shared reprint rights on his TMNT works, or whatever) but it still amounts to him legally being able to have zero to do creatively or production-wise with anything TMNT related ever again. Unless Peter so wishes it... and few people see that happening.

I love both Kevin and Peter and I think the both of them together has produced great work. There stlyes in creativity really blend well and I think that is what makes the turtles comic as great as it is.

However I think when Kevin is on board his personal favorite characters tend to take over the story. I love Raphael, he is my favorite next Leonardo, but in the early comics Raphael (as well as Casey Jones) kinda became a spot light hog to the point where it was more like "Raphael and the ninja turtles", not just the ninja turtles. I notice Kevin's favorite characters tend to swallow the story as it where. Which is...ok, if you like Raphael, but his character really made the other turtles play second fiddle to him in a lot of ways.

I hear alot of my fellow Raphael fans complain how he didn't get enough attention in the new show, but to be honest what the new show really did was put Raphael as one of the main characters instead of the main character. I think to an extent we Raphael fans have been spoiled because we're used to our favorite turtle having the spot light and having every thing be about him and his thoughts and feelings, that when he is written as not being the sole focus and has to share his spot light with Leo, Don, and Mikey (which is fair because they are the title characters) we cry afoul because he's not getting the same focus as he did.

With Peter at the helm I think he does a better job of spreading the attention on all four of them more equally, and not just all the turtles but other characters as well.

I really don't mean to start anything, but I think if you're going to criticize someone it's good to give examples as to why. Otherwise someone is seemingly being called rude and disrespectful for no reason. I think that if people are reading that about someone, it makes sense that they are going to want to know why.

Otherwise it's probably best to go with what a wise rabbit once said: "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

With that said, that's my opinion on the matter and I'm going to drop it too.

I always liked the stories they worked on together the best. I like their mix of sci-fi and gritty action. While I like gritty action more than sci-fi and love solo Kevin stories, Pete's sci-fi drama stuff really completes it all.

That may just be it...only one man can save the TMNT...by coming back and working once again with the other co-creator to bring the TMNT back to what they were a wonderful mix of ninja action/grit and sci-fi/character progression.

You mean more issues like Body Count? That piece of trash is the worst Turtles thing ever created...yes, even badder than Next Mutation. I'd rather see every episode of Next Mutation from here to eternity than read Body Count ever again...

Aww, c'mon! I liked Bodycount! :P