Some insight from inside the TMNT World
 

So as many of you know I am currently deep in production on the TMNT documentary project, I can say we are achieving much more than I thought we would be able to! The official TMNT community has been a major help so far! I can't thank them enough!

I have seen a lot of threads on here about the "doom and gloom" of the franchise, talking about the ending of TMNT, if and when we get a movie, and so on.

We, as you can imaging I spoke about such things with many of the people I was privileged enough to get to know.

I can't say everything but I will say a few things.

First off these people all deserve a lot more credit than we give them, they are too often cut down on here with no reason. They are working very hard to continue to bring you a quality product that we all love and enjoy.

The Current Show: I know that Peter is very proud of what they have accomplished on the new show! As I believe many of us would agree. When the new show comes to an end we shouldn't freak out, we can't expect it to last forever. It is no secret that there is a "feature" project with the new cartoon being premiered at Sandi Con by 4kids. This was discussed at their panel which I am sure you can find on the net.

The New Movie: This I can't say to much about other than they are talking about it, it would likely be a "hybrid" style shoot, and people are confident it may happen some day soon. In the world of movie making deals rest on dollars and contracts, as much as the Mirage crew wants to make something it can be put on hold by the powers that be. Though Peter seemed optamistic about it!

TMNT Longevity: Personally I think it is silly that people are worried about TMNT "going away" How can it go away any more than super man or batman can go away? Even if it sleeps for a while it will never disappear forever. From the perspective of some at Mirage taking a break can be a huge help to get those creative juices flowing again. When being so close to one specific property some times you need a little time to step back and take a breather, but in that case they will be back.

Lets cut them some slack, I think we are pretty lucky and have a vibrant and very alive franchise compared to pretty much all others of the same generation.

Thanks! Check for more updates on the doc at: www.turtledoc.com

Speaking of taking a breather, nice to get some optimistic fresh air in here!

If the TMNT cartoon ends, then TMNT is pretty much dead outside the comics.

The cartoons are always what attracts kids to the franchise, and without a cartoon and a toyline to advertise it, TMNT might as well go back to being an obscure comic book franchise.

Its actually pretty disappointing that no effort to renew the show for another season is being made by any of the three parties. Does Playmates actually expect their toys to continue to sell without a cartoon? Does 4kids not want to bank off merchandize success of the possible 5th movie with new eps of the cartoon?

It really is troubling. Sure, we'll have the comics, but without a cartoon on the air the TMNT franchise is for the most part dead. Its a damn shame.

I agree with all this. You are a TRUE TMNT fan! People forget to accept things for what they are.

Thanks bro! That means a lot to me!

You said it right there, my whole big point in way fewer words hahaha! Thanks!

My #1 wish is that TMNT is treated like a adult level property, less retro more modern comic book look on merch.

My #2 wish is that they get the next issue of V4 out....I've all but forgotten the story.

There's no doubt they're working on a lot of projects, i just hope it's going in the right direction.

Oh, I think many of them are trying, and I'm glad to hear this optimism for a change.

I still don't get this thread. The only thing to be "optimistic" about is the comics, since there is some good stuff with trades, Tales, Forever war, and so forth coming. And we have the second wave of Neca figures finally coming out.

What else is there to be happy about? The cartoon ending pretty much means the death of TMNT in the mainstream media for who knows how many years. With no cartoon the Playmates toyline might as well end too and go on hiatus.

I don't get it, we're happy that TMNT is going back to being an obscure comic book series? Sure, I love the comics, but without a cartoon on the air, you might as well say TMNT is dead for the forseeable future.

Then why not be optimistic about the comics? Someone said it over in another thread, with all the attention turning to the comics in the face of the show ending, maybe the franchise will be treated the way everyone seems to want it to be treated -- as a more adult brand more in touch with its true roots. We know that Imagi aren't going to be involved, so it's doubtful it will have too much to do with the 07 movie, and with the show ending, it's even more doubtful it'll resemble that. What does that leave, logically? New ground, or the comics.

There's nothing to be optimistic about in the comics. The book isn't in the top 300 overall and it's not even in the top 50 for independent books. Mirage isn't taking the comics any more serious than they have in the last 5 or so years; it just happens to be the only thing that doesn't have its graveyard dug just yet, but even that's just a matter of time. We still don't know whether or not the book will go into 2010 and the lack of sales doesn't speak for optimism in that regard. That's just how it is.

There's something right there.

The book is never decided on until about halfway through the year. All my pitches were made in June last year, after the decision was made to move ahead with the 09 season. A decision on 2010 won't be made until the same time. You know that nothing gets planned solidly beyond a year, and that's not just at Mirage, that's at Marvel, DC, and pretty much everywhere else.

Also, Tales has been selling at pretty much the same numbers since #10. It fluctuates between 2500 to 3000 units occasionally spiking at 3500. It actually sold its lowest at #9, managing only 1600 units. The other months that it doesn't appear on the sales lists cap the number 300 spot at roughly 3000 units, so chances are (and this is what Dan has told me as well) the book is selling anywhere between 2000-3000, usually averaging at 2500. The other thing is that more and more mid-range titles appear from the bigger companies, which push titles that have been selling the SAME number of units further down the scale. It doesn't mean they aren't selling, they just aren't making the top 300.

The sales HAVE dropped. I won't deny that and I never have, but it's only by a couple of hundred (Amazing Spiderman has seen sales drop by much more in years it's had movies!), and that fluctuates. There are still no sales data for this year either.

There is nothing wrong with people being optimistic. Just because they're optimistic, doesn't automatically make them naive or ignorant to what's going on. I'm pretty damn sure that everyone on this board, outside of a few newcomers, is aware of the state of things at the moment and I'm sure everyone is going to be disappointed (to varying extents) if things go the way of the dinosaur, but it all just comes down to outlook. Each to their own.

I'm glad some still have optimisum and hope these days. Granted things are lower then we like but I've seen franchises in worse shape survive and thrive because of it. Besides, if we the fans don't keep hope alive that there's a future, what's the point of the creatives to keep it up? We're the ones who have to show them there's still life left in the franchise. To do that we have to show them we have faith in them. Nice topic Canadian, and great input Tristan. Let's show Mirage we'll support this franchise till we're old and grey.

I am optimistic about the TMNT comics and property as a whole, As a long time fan I have to be. This anniversary could be big for things to turn around and snowball into something great. Unfortunately, it could snowball in the other direction as well. That's the reality of it. But hey, I'm a fan, and a dreamer. So I say find a way or make one.
If I had the ability and income, I'd do what ever I could to help the TMNT comics exist. All I can do is buy what I can, as I can. Which works out pretty well in the regard that I have nearly every issue. But I do not have the kind of money it takes to aid in the running of a company or I'd donate what I could. If the cease publication of the comics I will be quite upset.
I'll probably start sketching my own. Again.
As far as comic book properties go, and I do like quite a lot, TMNT and Batman are my absolute favorites.
If the book ends I will miss them.
At least until DC buys the rights.
Or something.

Its also hard to be optimistic about the comics when the Pete says V4 will resume when all the 07 movie stuff was all over & done with. Here it is 09, ok so where's the book??

how is it hard? we still get tales of the tmnt every month. to be honest, it would not bother me at all if peter stopped volume 4, so long as tales kept going. he can finish volume 4 any time even in tales if he wanted to.

maybe you should ask him your exact question on his blog.

I have it on good authority that sales are much, MUCH lower than that.

The TMNT-meets-TMNT thing for children? Should be fun for people into that sort of thing, or folks nostalgic for the old Fred Wolf cartoon. I couldn't care less.

To be fair, though, the hybrid factor intrigues me but I have no confidence it wouldn't be only be slightly less of a toddler/Playmates' toys pandering affair than the last movie was.

Not excited, and with all the dozens upon dozens of promising movie deals that came and fell apart to make TMNT Part 4 (to finally arrive at a pretty embarassing final movie) the odds just aren't in TMNT Part 5's favor... both the chance of it even getting made and the chance that it won't be forehead slappingly awful.

Personally I think it is silly to compare TMNT to either Superman or Batman... for pretty obvious reasons.

It's not your fault by any means, of course, but nowhere in your post do you give any insight or hope about the TMNT comics... which is the last vestige of the franchise that even tries to appeal to people over the age of 10 (or old who can't let go of their childhoods... not that there's anything wrong with that).

I do agree that TMNT's longevity isn't in jeopardy. I'm far more concerned with TMNT's credibility in the long haul... so far all we're seeing is an endless, repeating cycle of catering to the lowest common denominator, then wondering why the little kids keep outgrowing it. Over and over again, all the while ignoring that the TMNT was never intended to be for little kids to begin with.

Sooner or later TMNT is going to run out of third, or fourth, or fifth chances. Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Well, good for you, I'm telling you what I was told by Dan at the end of last year. If I were to guess, then sales'd be around the 2000 mark at the end of last year, but I don't know, and there have still been a number of months in the past where sales have dipped further than that. Like I said, #9 MADE the top 300 at 1600 units, so the sales numbers fluctuate.

That's beside the point anyway. The point I was making is the outlook. Everyone is well aware of the reality of the brand, outside of a few newcomers. What does it matter to you if people are optimistic? As I said, everyone knows what's going on.

So an independent comic is selling less copies than Batman. We're supposed to be surprised?

No cartoon = no way to get a new generation of kids interested in Turtles.

The idea is the cartoons introduce people to the franchise and then they might get into the comics. After all, isn't that how most of us discovered TMNT in the first place via the original cartoon?

How can we be optimistic without a cartoon?

I completely agree with you Isaac. I also cross-blogged this post on theturtlevan.

Just because one particular cartoon series is coming to an end doesn't mean that they'll never be animated again in the not-too-distant future. I mean, it's not like the world immediately forgets about any comic character that suddenly doesn't have his own cartoon series anymore. I think that the Turtles can survive without a cartoon lined up immediately after this one.

That is true, but Batman has consistently had a cartoon on the air for years.

After Batman: The Animated series ended, we got Batman Beyond, then Batman played a major role on Justice League.

In addition to that there was The Batman, and now Brave and the Bold. There has been an animated form of Batman on TV in one form or another since pretty much 1992.

With TMNT if the 2k3 series ends, what is there to look forward to? Sure, maybe 5-6 years from now we'll get another cartoon, but it'll probably not be all that good, and the 2k3 universe will be abandoned forever.

Kids will still watch reruns. And if kids were getting into the comics, the sales numbers would be a lot higher. It's rare that I see a kid below the age of 15 in a comic shop. Even when I was in the the U.S. (and I hit those comic shops hard).

I agree, I think the comic image and industry needs to take a swing away from the exclusive older male culture and get youth back into it again... or it will ultimately die all together.

Therein lies the point I've been trying to make. Why not look forward to the prospect that it could be better? It could be "not all that good" but it could be twice that. ****, it could even be the Spawn style animated series everyone wants!

It's the "glass half empty" point of view people are taking that is bringing things down. It's fine to have that point of view, but it doesn't get anyone anywhere really.

Well the TMNT 2k3 series was the closest version of a cartoon the comics that we got, even if they took creative liberties, and Peter Laird approved of almost every script before the 4kids writers actually went ahead of it.

I also imagine the length had something to do with it. 155 episodes for a cartoon is an amazing run. If we get another cartoon, it'll last maybe 52 eps at the most and end, or maybe even just 26 episodes.

The cartoon is what introduces kids to the franchise and then said kids may look up the comics. If there is no cartoon, a random 14 year old kid is unlikely to go to a comic store and pick up a black and white comic when there are Batman and Superman comics sitting right there next to them.

But that kid might not be into Batman or Superman. That kid might've been into TMNT a couple of years ago, and therefore might pick up the TMNT comic. Kids read Manga, and that isn't in colour and half of it is read backwards. Just because it's Batman or Superman and it's in colour doesn't mean people are going to pick it over a black and white comic.

Again, "glass half empty".

Well, hopefully this whole Barnes & Noble thing picks up because when that same random kid goes there to buy Batman, he'll see TMNT and go, "What's this?" Hopefully he'll like it.

In many ways, I think it's positive that "Everything" TMNT is dying in the mass media (aside from the comic). Better to let everything die, I say, and then let the franchise sit on ice for 5-10 years so that TPTB can come back to the table with something more befitting the source material in the mass media than the toddler nonsense we're forcefed at large. Maybe this means a TMNT movie unlike any other. Maybe this is a made-for-TV/Direct-to-DVD type affair. Maybe a semi-ongoing, mature animated feature on something like HBO. I don't know. Sometimes... often times... it's just that things need to hit rock bottom in order to come back better, or properly.

I know it may never happen. I tell you, though, I'd rather gamble on the odds of that happening than to just be content with the kind of twisted, vicious circle of one kiddie incarnation to the next to the next to the next we're looking at now.

In all likelihood, I don't doubt that TPTB will still just jump at the next little kid cartoon deal that comes their way with asking only a modest amount of concessions. I just think it's unfortunate. And makes the problems within the TMNT's portrayal in the mass media self-perpetuating.

In some ways I agree with Andrew. Better to let something die gracefully then to make it trudge on for years too long *cough* Simpsons *cough*

I'd love to see a TMNT movie in the same or similar tone as something like Batman Begins, but who knows if that'll ever happen.

Aside from that though, saying that there should never be another kids cartoon is just bad business. That would never happen.

Come on... we all know that the cartoon ghas basically run its course, and the reason why FF and BTTS don't measure up is due to the fact the writers thought that there would be one more season of each. And then when nothing happened, we got all these filler episodes that don't go anywhere, while big, exciting plots go completely unexplored.

Face it. It's been on the air since 2003... 6 years for 7 (or 8... however you count it) seasons. And well over 100 episodes. That in and of itself is a triumph, in the days of lack of interest in kid's animation and production caps. Heck, I'm pretty surprised they would have even let it go on for 5 seasons.

I'm disappointed we won't get the big, dynamic closure we were all expecting. We had more closure with the "Lost" season, dispite the fact it took an odd turn to Naruto-land.

And think about it this way. How many cartoon toy lines are their VS movie toy lines? Sure, we're getting The Brave and the Bold right now, and we had Spectacular Spider-Man and Transformers Animated... but those shows all attribute their success (if you can call it that) due to movies.

Not to mention the fact that if the show was to continue, we'd get more clumsily added toy placements (think of what the show could be like if they integrated the music Turtle line into it. NOT pretty) And Mikey would continue his character slide into big baby, and Raph would still be Oscar the Grouch, mumbling about how stupid Mikey is.

I expect this is exactly what will happen. Nothing changes for the TMNT so long as TPTB don't change.

I don't see what's wrong wtih having a kid's show. I mean, it's not like The Brave and the Bold is eating into public perception of The Dark Knight.

By my count FF had 6 pure fillers out of a total of 26 episodes. Fillers are skippable episodes, but what do you count as filler?

Were Jammerhead's appearances filler? I wouldn't say so, since one ep was also about them catching Darius and the other was the first episode.

Was "The Journal" and/or "Graduation Day" filler? Hm, it really depends on if you consider those eps character building. FF doesn't have that many pointless eps as a whole.

And of BTTS, there were 3 pure fillers out of 13 episodes. The Serling/Turtle Tots ep, Superquest, and possibly that Justice Force episode. Its not that many useless eps as people claim.

Yeah this is true and I agree, it just that having 3 Shredder's in a showdown would be an epic conclusion for the show and the entire Shredder story in general. Maybe we can still get a DTV out of it if we're lucky.

Well why can't the possible 5th movie revive interest in the cartoon? Seems like a missed opportunity if 4kids drops the series right before a possible 5th movie is announced.

Raph's been making fun of Mikey since the first season. While its true Mike has had his character played for laughs too much, it doesn't bother me that much.

And I doubt we'd see stupid stuff like Music Turtles actually in the cartoon. There's no way to work something like that in there.

Just a quick update regarding Tales Sales:

Tales #54 made number 278 on the top 300 sales for January.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...9/2009-01.html

"Tales Sales"... :D Awesome.

Those aren't the final numbers, though, are they?

If #55 does less than that, there's simply no justice in the world.

Yes... but TMNT first needs to have it's own Dark Knight, or even its own Batman Begins. It doesn't. It's never had that.