Are TMNT comics honestly "good comics" by other series standards?
 

Aside from the major arcs, like #1-11, Tales #1-7, Return to New York, City at War, some of Tristan's stuff, and maaaybe Volume 2, are TMNT comics generally considered, "good comics?"

If you were to hand a random DC/Marvel comic fan some TMNT comics that he never read before, would they actually think they were good? Do you think TMNT comics are "good comics" or do we like them because we're fans of the property?

I think a lot of the guest issues of Vol. 1 and Tales Vol. 2 are good comics, as well as the ones you mentioned. So are many Archie and Image issues.

Some of the others obviously are not, but a lot of the comics have been pretty awesome.

If we're talkin about MODERN TMNT comics, then honestly, for the most part...no. They are NOT good comics when compared to other stuff out there, and they aren't even good when compared to their own previous issues and series.

Tales Vol. 2 is a mixed bag. The issues rarely leave you with much of an urge to ever reread the story and might even leave you wishing you hadn't paid for them. The stories are often very forgettable with artwork of incredibly inconsistent quality and tone.

The typical lack of an ongoing story leaves you with little investment in where things are going. When stories are confined to 22 pages, there's no cliffhanger endings. Nothing to make you anxious to see where things go. No "worries" about what might happen to a character at the end, since you know everything will be fine and dandy next issue.

Tales Vol. 2 often starts arcs, introduces "big" new characters, and then forgets about them or discards them shortly afterward making their stories all too pointless (Lady Shredder? Foot Mystics?). You can't rely on the book to reward your investment. Anthology titles are fun for a while, but the formula grows tired quickly. The best Tales Vol. 2 stories are the multi-issue arcs which compliment one another, such as the 5 issue Shark-Shredder arc or Dan Berger's Leatherhead and Foot Ninja arc.

I buy Tales Vol. 2 to support the franchise more-so than the book, and because at least recently with Tristan's web of interconnecting stories, there's been some promise of good issues on the horizon and an ongoing storyline to invest interest in.

As for TMNT Vol. 4?

THAT is not a good comic book series. Tremendously decompressed pace, allowing for limited to no plot progression, making very few issues stand out individually. In-your-face product placement that insults the reader and punches the integrity of Mirage right in the stomach. Horribly conceived dialogue that wanders from inane and mundane prattling to idiotic "slang" such as "Holy hippo spit". Artwork that's nothing but rudimentary geometric shapes with only the vaguest similarity to people and Turtles.

All that AND a writer/editor/publisher whose response to any and all constructive criticism is "Don't buy my book, it's for me, not for you".

Yeah.

I'm sorry, but modern TMNT comics are not good reading. Tristan's work has been the exception. I'm not saying that because the dude posts here. I'm speaking solely on a structural level. Ongoing stories. New characters that aren't forgotten as soon as they're introduced. And artwork that lives up to what a "Ninja Turtles" branded comic should be.

TMNT comics should be better than this.

For a while there was a hot-selling new toyline. An aexcellent and popular new cartoon series. A big-budget feature film.

And yet the original comics continued to fail because of bad business decisions and bad storytelling decisions.

All that other stuff, the big Turtles revival, has run its course. Mirage has missed their chance. Selfish and stubborn old men put themselves before the quality of their product and squandered an opportunity that lasted almost ten years.

They're trying to make up for it now with the anniversary. I appreciate that. But I think it's too late.

If anything defines the TMNT comics, it's their vast fluctuation in quality. In a way, it's part of the charm. In other ways, it's just frustrating. But to answer the original question:

I present Cipher's highly subjective list of which TMNT comics are good:

Some of the best issues of Volume 1 are not among that list. "Sons of the Silent Age," "Twilight of the Ring," "Leatherhead Too", and "Soul's Winter" are fantastic stories, better than most of the well known material.

"City at War" is without question the pinnacle of TMNT writing, and I will hold that up on a level perhaps slightly below books like "The Dark Knight Returns." "City at War" kicked ass as entertainment, art, and worthwhile reading.

The first half of Volume 2 is good. Really hits home in the character department, but a rushed finished ruined everything it had going.

Images Volume 3 is the epitome of hardcore, style-over-substance comics, but you know what? It pulls that off. As a product of its times, it still stands up well, and if you're looking for action or plot arcs in your comics, it has them perhaps moreso than any other Turtles series. It also progressed the characters, if in the most radical ways possible.

Tales Volume 2 is, I'll be honest, largely unremarkable. If you're like me and you want some amount of literary merit from your comics, then there are standouts including "Scars", "Blind Faith", #55, and others. But apart from whetting fans' appetites by adding to continuity, alot of them are only decent one-off pulp stories. Not going to do much for a casual reader.

Volume 4. I'll make it quick: Love the concepts, not crazy about the execution. Regardless of personal feelings, Laird's slowburn story and Lawson's quiky art (which I really have come to like) aren't going to sell to a larger audience. And that's understandable.

That's how I feel. Granted, I'm not most comic fans. I love comics, but only as another type of literature. I'm a "snooty" comic book fan. I'll be honest. The parts of Ninja Turtles that most fans swear by, the first eleven issues, the first Tales volume, Tristan's issues, don't do a whole lot for me. They're kind of "blah" pulp action stories. "City of War" is still the absolute sh*t though. (Tristan, #59 does look exceptional, and I really would like to see your villains and plot threads expanded upon.)

Damn, this post was incoherent.

With any title, it's a fifty fifty thing. But IN MY OPINION...Yes. They are good comics. Just as much as nearly anything else out there right now. I mean Damn...I've also been collecting Batman since I was a little one and now Bruce is a freaking cave man whose soul is scattered all throughout time...WTF!
TMNT comics are good comics, and are extremley underated.

SOME?!! SOME!?! More like... ALL!! :lol: Just kidding, though I would like to know why the others aren't there, not because I think all my work is **** hot, but so I know where the flaws are in those particular stories. Can't improve if I don't know what's holding me back ;)

I think it would depend on the issue. It goes the same with DC and Marvel comics. You could hand them to anyone, that doesn't mean that that person, even if they enjoy comics, is going to dig the issue you give them.

I think the main problem there is that these reviewers are casual readers. They love comics in general, but not necessarily TMNT specifically, and the jump around nature of Tales affects each book.

I think it's a combination of both, although there have been some stories that I just couldn't get into.

This is a very valid point. These are the sorts of things I know Mirage are taking into account too, but you should still let Dan and Peter know too.

These are all really, really valid points, and it's something that I believe Dan has brought up recently with the others (it's something he and I were discussing in great depth a little while ago too). Tales works well as a support book. If Volume 4 were still going, or there were some form of ongoing title that Tales could compliment by telling the "between the cracks" stories, it would be a much better investment as you said. This is why I've been telling stories that connect the way they do... as much fun as I have with Tales as it is, I really do wish there more longer running stories between Volume 2 and 4.

It's also my hope that I'll be able to reference the Shredder Shark story, the Lady Shredder story and a couple of others with my own stories, should things continue and Peter approves.

Thanks dude. It means a lot hearing that.

I think right now, the time is right for the comics to start something new. I think there should be a new book stemming out of everything that has been set up in Tales at the moment, and incorporating the established history, that isn't necessarily tied down by those books, but uses them as a launching pad for something new. And ongoing.

I think that depends on what you're looking for in your TMNT books though. They are all very worthy stories though.

Quoted for the truth.

Y'know, I would love to see Jim finish this properly through Tales. I also got the impression that it was cut short a little...

Again, quoted for the truth. Although it doesn't bother me that it's not part of the overall continuity.

Tales, as it presently is, would make for fantastic alternate-earth stories, kinda like Jake's superturtles story and the Zulli/Murphy books.

You gotta fill me in on why, not just for my own stories (reason given above) but on some of those first 11 issues too. I think the Leo-#10-#11 bridge is just below City At War to be honest.

Thanks man! I just put the finishing touches on the script, having seen all the art come together, and I'm really proud of the issue. Very close to my heart this one, and I'm not even sure why. I think it's the main character...

The ideas are there, and I'm desperate to tell them, you just gotta let them know! I had a really cool idea for one particular story that didn't involve any Turtles at all (outside of mentioning) and existed solely to expand on the villains (but would, in effect expand upon the Turtles and their world).

Made sense to me...

What makes a "good" comic is subjective.

I mean there's a lot of comics out there that get a lot of critical praise that I just don't get.

It's up to the reader to decide what's good, and there's so much out there in the world of comics that there's something for everyone.

So I guess my answer is that the TMNT comics are good comics...depending on the taste of the person reading them.

Not touching this thread. Suffice to say, others have covered my thoughts to varying degrees already.

I will say that when the Mirage TMNT comics are good... they're VERY good. And they can be very good again.

And I can't say that I agree with "Images Volume 3 is the epitome of hardcore, style-over-substance comics" by any means apart from some cosmetic choices. That's pretty much the antithesis of the kind of comics Gary Carlson has always written, and continues to write with Big Bang. People are so quick to go, "Raph had his face shot, Donatello became a Cyborg, Splinter became a bat, Leo lost a hand!" and completely ignore what the other 500 pages of the volume was about... which had more heart than 90% of Volume 2 and 4.

Exactly. Some arcs hit, some miss, some are "meh." I know I've fluctuated in my comic reading with Spidey and X-men. I've stopped reading both because I don't have very easy access to a comic shop. That said, I really can't say as I've only really read Archie and Vol. 4 Mirage, that's it. I've read the 1st issue on-line and maybe a few others, but as far as judging cannon, I haven't the foggiest if Mirage is "good" by the major comic company standards. Mirage may be more apt to take chances with their characters that Marvel and DC wouldn't. (April as a drawing, much?) These may not make a book "good" per say, but they make it different for the mainstream. Then again, and no offense to Trist, but Marvel and DC can land the tested big names, where as Mirage can only rate brilliant up-and-comers.

I've been giving the Image comics a second shot, and I have to agree. Originally I lumped the series into the "hardcore 90's" group because things happened like Cyborg Donatello and Raphael getting disfigured. There's definitely a more interesting story going on than I originally gave it credit for.

You don't have to sell Volume 3 to me. I didn't mean to come down hard on it, and actually agree with everything you've said. There's some great character work and plot arcs in it. I simply meant that it embraced those trends (I think, a bit more than simply cosmetically). Not a bad thing, since they were well-used.

The first eleven issues are...fun. When I actually sit down to read through them, I get a kick out of them. There's just not a whole lot of substance to them, other than setting up the basis of the series. They're still above average, but, methinks, overrated. There have been better written and more entertaining issues since.

But then again, I can't figure out for the life of me why people actually enjoy Batman: Year One.

Oh, certainly! But it's one of those things, you grow into writing, and you can see the professional development that occurs over those first ten issues. I look back on some of the ideas I jotted down... even the first script of #36 and just cringe.

For me, it's the fact that we're seeing the Batman become who he is through the eyes of an unrelated observer (who eventually becomes more than that). It's exactly like a new reader coming into a comic. We grow into Gotham the same way Gordon does. It's the perfect entry point for anyone wanting to really get into the Bat-books. It's also a very harsh and unforgiving book, but not in an alienating way, which I like.

In the end, I just love me some good crime drama, which it is really.

i think early TMNT (Vol 1, mostly) stands out as a breath of fresh air compared to other comics from that period. And most hold up as pretty good reading now.

that's the good thing about the alternative/underground comic spectrum. it provides an alternative to 'the same old stuff', as it were, from Marvel/DC. turtles is a part of that whole underground comics scene (or at least was), and thats something to really take note of.

same with alternative films providing an escape from the whole hollywood parade, alternative literature from, i dunno, Dan Brown books :lol: , and so on.

but thats not to say that mainstream pop culture doesn't come up with the occasional gem, as someone else said earlier it's all very subjective.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this statement. Which is the #1 reason I am still a fan. Certain issues kick the crap out of anything else out there.

of course TMNT are good comics

It's why I said that by the time the new movie comes out in 2011, we need a brand new Volume 5 with an on-going story to be coming out alongside it. No Jim Lawson doing the art, Peter won't be writing the story but he'll likely approve the scripts, and have a brand new creative team doing it.

Hopefully Vol. 4 can end by then. By 2011 Vol. 4 will have been going on for an entire decade, which is pretty damn crazy considering the book only has 30 issues so far. Man.

for me a good comic makes me not want to wait a month for the next issue. It utilizes the cast and sets up cliff hangers for the next issue. TMNT does not do this. to an extent. Volume 4's sporadic release schedule make me forget what i was waiting for from issue to issue. The cast doesnt always get a chance to shine. Where as in X-men, Batman, Ultimate Spider-man, and even kid's titles like teen titans go and sonic the hedgehog I feel most characters get "screen time" and respected by the writers.
I like my comics like i like my TV, serials with a coherent plot. The plots in tales may be consistent once a year, if that. Again for me, it isnt just about the four turtles. It is about their relationship with the cast. Volume 4? 4 main stories about each turtle separated from the cast. Tales vol 2 may times is just that. Or else it is a new character/mysterious entity/cowboy from moo mesa that frankly I can't bring myself to care about.

Good is purely a matter of opinion. In my opinion parts of volume one are great while others just plain suck.

I didn't care for Volume 2 much to be honest it was short and all over the place.

Volume 3, the Image series, was amazing and I enjoyed it quite a bit.

Volume 4 puts me to sleep so I can't give you a clear answer on that one. I haven't gotten to read it all yet so if it has an amazing ending it might be put into my good pile. For now though Volume 4 doesn't do much for me.

Volume 1 of Tales is fun and I liked most of the stories.

Volume 2 of Tales is a mixed bag, and it makes sense with so many people working on it. All in all though I like it and the random artists on every issue is a nice touch. It keeps it fresh.

Archie is my favorite. Though even Archie is guilty of being bad at some parts. The first 30 issues or so are almost un-readable for me anymore. Everything after that is awesome though.

Like any series turtles has it's good and it's bad. Overall I think it's a good comic series, however I'm a fan and my opinion can be taken as biased. Honestly compared to the other stuff I've read I see turtles as being above a lot of it. It doesn't over narrate like a lot of comics do, that always annoys me, and the amount of art and text per page is balanced.

I prefer Archie over Mirage.

Mirage, like many others have said, is a mixed bag. Some of the comics were great. Others I do not know what they were thinking- and I am not necessarily talking only about the non-canon ones of Volume 1.

Image does not seem appealing to me at all. Glad it is not canon.

The core TMNT storyline issues: TMNT Omnibus, Tales Vol. 1, Return to New York, City At War, and Tristan's issues (ALL of them :P) are truly excellent reads. I'll put them up against any other bigger named comics best storylines.

That's not to say that there hasn't been other great issues, because there have been, but those are the best overall IMHO.

You do understand that most of the books from Marvel and DC aren't great right? Even the big names produce awful work sometimes: Jeph Loeb's vomit inducing run on The Ultimates being a great example of this.

As a kid I found Archie first, then Mirage Vol. 1 and 2 as a 20-year old collector, and finally Image shortly after. I'm missing about a dozen total issues (like 3 from Archie, a few from Vol. 1, etc) and have everything that's come out since in single issue form. I've read pretty much everything I have of TMNT, not saying I remember it all well, but I've read it. I kinda feel like I'm in an interesting place to chime in, given I myself purchase about 20-30 books a month and my current comic collection sits at over 5000 issues (add Mary's and it's almost 6000). I'm not a "collector"; I buy to read. Oh, I bag n board, stack long boxes to the ceiling, but I collect because I NEEDED every Superman book since the '86 revamp. I NEED every issue of TMNT, or whatever else, because I don't like holes in my reading experience, not because I'd ever sell any of it. I like to sit down with a stack of 30 books on a weekend and just cram insane stuff into my brain over hours and hours of reading.

It's not always easy for me to do that with some of the TMNT stuff. At various times I've read a whole volume in one sitting and it's definitely a mixed bag. I agree with a lot of what's been said, especially a lot of Dr Spengler's comments. For me personally, the Image run was the hardest to get through, partly because of those oh-so-controversial changes, but also because that book was very hard on the eyes, especially the early issues. BnW comics just don't do it for me, I know I may be a minority but they hurt my damn eyes, sorry. BnW comics almost demand superior art and shading b/c otherwise it's just a scrambled mess, and I think many issues of TMNT (not just Image) suffered for it.

Image Vol. 3 gets blasted sometimes, and I didn't really like it much, but I think it's a microcosm of why some other TMNT books, including Mirage, have stumbled at times: Art and writing that's inconsistent between brilliant and "what is this?", mixed with concepts and ideas that are completely foreign to the "real" fanbase, the old cartoon fans.

(Note I put "real" in sarcastically. I believe though that larger numbers of people are familiar with the 'toon and nothing else, and in real life many of them are quite dismissive of any non-toon TMNT besides the movies.)

Better or worse, the Archies were the closest to what a casual TMNT fan would expect from a TMNT book, and that's probably why it's remembered so fondly by some. I pretty much agree with what was said a million times about what was good and not good about it, but the best parts of it later on were the things the "real" TMNT books could borrow from. Stuff like consistent artwork and stories that actually end within a reasonable timeframe, new characters that don't just seem to vanish forever once their two-parter is over, that sort of thing.

I think Vol. 1 did a good job overall but it really suffers under all the guest writer/artist issues. That's the one thing, that huge chunk in the middle, that makes it less appetizing for casuals. My fiancee, for example, isn't a canon freak, but she'd much rather read in-continuity stories than "imaginary" ones, and I bet a lot of other casual readers do, too.

As much as I like a lot of the new Tales series, Vol. 4 was really, really getting on my nerves a ways back. I liked it at first, but then the tone just shifted, like it was trying to be an anti-comic fan comic book. The art got worse, the stories just never ended, one-panel background events that seemed mysteriously important were never mentioned again, and it got to a point where instead of wanting the next issue b/c I was diggin' it, it was more like, "I can't wait for the next issue to hopefully be better than this one."

Mostly, it was the attitude of "the boss" that got me. Whenever anyone would make a humble request about what they'd like to see in Vol. 4, they'd usually be dismissed outright and told "Don't read it if you don't like it". Which is pretty unrealistic, I mean most comic fans are so passionate they can put up with a sub-par product for a little while if they think it'll actually improve. I think more people probably just pick it up, figure it's not what they want, and go back to waiting for a better TMNT book to somehow come out.

Sadly, I'd have to say that the TMNT have rarely shone as brightly in print as they should have, in any series. There's no series I would comfortably hand to a non-fan or non-reader and say "Read all that. That's the TMNT."

Really? If there was a trade that had: TMNT Vol. 1 #1-11, 4 turtle micros, Tales Vol. 1, Return to New York, Shades of Grey/City At War, and Tristan's work all included; you wouldn't tell someone: "Read all that. That's the TMNT"?

I would in a heartbeat! That IS the TMNT to me.

Yes, but those issues are really only a small part of the entire TMNT comic universe.

There is what...nearly 200 issues with all of the Mirage and Image comics combined? How many of those are memorable?

That's a loaded question. Of all the multiple hundreds of Superman or Batman comics, for example, how many of those are memorable? Not an exceedingly large percentage by most standards.

Exactly. There's probably not many more in Batman or X-Men than the 46 TMNT "must haves" that I listed above.

Agreed, but since all the TMNT runs have been so short (number-wise) it really hurts the argument a bit on behalf of TMNT. Anybody could dig up great issues of ANY book, but the fact that so many issues of each TMNT series were either forgettable, fill-ins, or "not great" hurts it more than, say, a book like Batman that's had hundreds of issues by hundreds of different writers/artists. All of the TMNT series could have been a lot tighter.

That's not to say you can't still cherry-pick the gems, but I didn't think we were talking in that respect. As a whole, I'd still have to say each series wasn't as good as it could have been, especially the in-house product, but there were always flashes of brilliance.

Archie's TMNT are "good comics". I've read about 10 issues and every one of them made me want to read another issue and know what happened next. One of the few issues I have is the issue right after the Mutanimals die. I didn't have a clue who most of the characters were, but afterwards, I wanted to know more about the characters.

I've read about the same amount of Mirage issues and most all of them leave me wondering how TMNT EVER became a success. The only ones I enjoyed are the ones made into 2k3 episodes...and I think 2k3 did the stories much better. Any other issues I've read I barly remember because their just plain forgetable.

i was thinking about all this and given what tristan and paul did with hun in tales #56, i think they would be perfect for something along the lines of an ultimate ninja turtles comic line. i would love to see them re-do classic stories the way they reinterpreted hun. i am not sure who has been to andres blog or tristans blog lately but it looks like theyt were going to pitch touch and go at one point. their designs are definitely something i would be into for those characters. even some of the previews of #61 make me wish andres was doing more stories. i think his art is very close to what good modern comics are like these days.

Peter Laird likely won't have a reboot as long as he's in charge, as seen by his reaction to the Star Trek movie.

Maybe 30 years from now when Pete is retired or in his 80's, we'll see TMNT handed off to new creative hands.

How do you mean? Nothing in his reaction to Star Trek would lead me to believe he's inherently against reboots... he's just against ones that don't retain the heart of the thing that's being rebooted.

I literally just wrote something about this over in another thread, and Peter made mention of his first idea for such a thing over on his blog.

I agree with you on that one. 2k3 did make the stories more better. But the mirage comics weren't all that bad. If anything, they were real good up to #16. then it was like, every other issues going to be good.

I'd prefer it if the original stories were continued too, but a reboot is probably what's best if he wants to grow the audience. Either that or really market the hell out of the upcoming collected book.

Also, just because he didn't like that reboot, doesn't mean he's completely opposed to the concept.

I really hope you guys don't do that. If anything I think you guys should get a shot at carrying the actual book. I personally hate ultimate comics.

I hate the idea of "Ultimates" and reboots myself pretty much always, but if there was ever a property that really needed a steamlined, "Ultimate"-style makeover that combined what worked from each incarnation and threw out what didn't, TMNT would come to my mind before pretty much anything else.

I wish the Dreamwave comics kept going.... shouldn't have wasted time with 'turtles in da hood' and gone straight for the Baxter/Turtlebot 'T4' story....

I mean, we had no comic supporting the show this time... DW TMNT could have been the Archie of today. They both had the same beginning, first few issues based on the show, the rest was all new. What were they thinking when they wasted valauble time and issues with crap like Raph being chased by some deranged psychologist? I was still wondering how the comics would have turned out during the whole Fast Forwad/Back to the Sewers shift? During the whole 'what do we do now with the new TMNT season' hiatus, the comics could have whipped out some awesome FF stories in the meantime...

Personally, I find that musing over "what could have been" in regards to the Dreamwave series to be a bit pointless. What with Dreamwave having gone bankrupt five years ago and all, the series would have been abruptly cancelled, anyway.

Bankrupt... and woulda been abruptly cancelled anyway???? That I did not know....

Either way, someone else should have gotten the rights to make a comic of the 2K3 stuff... we had no modern 'Archie' comic...

I don't think I'm qualified to say whether or not they're good comics, I've got too much nostalgia wrapped up in them.

There are certainly stories I like more than others, that's for sure. "Sons of the Silent Age", "The River", "The Dale Evans McGillicutty" story arch, just to name a few.

I thought the DW series was off to a good start, too. Life can be so unfair.