Beauty Discrimination
 

apparently looking beautiful might cost you certain positions in the job market:

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2010/08...eauty-study%2F

Ah, the consequences of a looks obsessed society. I'm no supermodel, but I'm not ugly either. It's good to be in the middle.

Well, I guess graduating Summa Cum Laude and being a member of Phi Beta Kappa isn't quite as important as my bust size after all. I should have saved my student loan money and gotten implants.

Wow. This really doesn't surprise me, but I don't care. I'll fight for a job if I have to. What ticks me off is the statistic that says sixty-one percent of hiring managers say it's an advantage to have clothes that show off a woman's figure. Wasn't there a case where a woman's clothes were seen as too revealing and she lost her job?

I wish I could remember, or find, the source of this quote:

"My body will get me in the door, my brains will keep me there."

And yeah, women are punished for not being pretty enough and for being too pretty. And they say there's no need for feminism...

There isn't.

Pro tip for women: Stop whining.

Woah! I think that might be the first time I've seen that come back NOT come back with, "And make me a sandwich." Way to shake things up!

Personally, I don't understand feminism. You get offended because you have a better chance of getting a job than a man? I wish I could be hired because I'm a man, but it doesn't work that way. Sometimes I wish I was another race so I could play the race card and guilt trip recruiters into hiring me. But I'm white, so I gotta work for the job!

I just think women love all the drama of feminism, and love to hear themselves feel powerful because they have an opinion.

Seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress....t-me-here-why/

Thanks for wasting ten seconds of my time.

Hey, anytime.
:D

Hey, I'd fix Peanut a sandwich anytime.

There's no reason to be miffed if some company doesn't hire you because you aren't sexy.....I mean would you want to work there? I actually have been told I was put in a position at my current employer because I had the "correct look". (Read: size 6 + chest size)

I quit that position when I heard about it. No biggie.

I don't know, but I'm guessing you're either some fat b*tch or a dyke. Either way, shut up. rofl Also, if you're a dude, I don't think defending that kind of sh*t gets you laid.

Also, Katie. I'll take you up on that sandwich someday.

You'd be surprised at just how much defending this $#!+ gets me laid.

I, for one, wouldn't be surprised one bit.

Feminism cracks me up because it's basically using a collective hate to spread more hate. I have some feminist teachers who like to purposely piss off or go out of their way to try and make male students uncomfortable because of their disposition. It's contradictory to ask the male demographic not to judge you because you're a woman yet assume every male is an asshole and treat them as such. I don't make snap judgments, feminists should learn not to either. Accusing someone of playing a part they don't might entice them to as they're going to be accused of it anyway.

An often overlooked psychological principle... Very wise, sir. :)

I can't take full credit for it. It's a subject studied quite a bit in the documentary "Crips and Bloods: Made in America".

Just so I'm clear on reading this:
All feminists need to learn not to make snap judgments based on the behavior of some of your teachers...who happen to be feminists.

But you don't make snap judgements, right?

I would say that no one is above being judged, and if the story you tell is true to the way you tell it...that your teachers are not worthy to call themselves either feminists or teachers. But that's just me. What do I know? I'm just some fat bitch dyke/dude who can't get laid apparently.

My teachers aren't the only women I've encountered who act like this. I use them as an example because it involved a large scale act of hate.

I've discovered the template for most feminists are women who have been mistreated by men in the past, probably a no brainer. All the feminists I've met, and oddly it's been many, are divorced, lesbians, or abuse victims. Almost all of them have at one point or another had a significant other in their life who mistreated them and therefore they project that anger onto the entire male gender. Sometimes it's been more then one man, not noticing a patten in their bad decision making. They blame the men in their life for their problems and not their own inability to walk away from the situation. Sometimes walking away is dangerous but if it's to that point then why aren't the police involved?

I was once robbed a knife point by a black homeless man. I don't assume every homeless person is going to rob me and I don't assume every black person is either. People have a clean slate until they give me reason to assume otherwise. Not making snap judgments is hard, we do it uncontrollably, but choosing to act upon them is something we can control.

I love saying stuff that get people like this uppity. When they repeat it later, I know I've done my job.

I stayed away from this thread because I can tell that it's going to attract some trouble, but I just wanted to say that you're very wise, Spitfire. I like the way you think. :)

The term "feminism" is a pretty loaded one. It can go from one end of the scale to the other. From posative female empowerment to extreme nazi feminism. Two sides of the same coin.
I'm a bit of a feminist myself, but the good kind, I assure you.

Well thank you. I believe the core ideas behind feminism are very noble. I hardly find it fair that women are treated differently because of their gender. It's nice to see progress. The work place seems to be the biggest struggle. Working in a male dominated work force makes it harder I can imagine but in time it will level out. We as a society still can't accept gay people either which still baffles me.

I think the battle needs to be won with passive behavior. Pointing fingers, placing blame, and being scornful doesn't accomplish much but painting a negative context on your beliefs.

I disagree. No battle was ever won by passively sitting and waiting for the other side to grant you what you're fighting for. The establishment isn't going to come down from on high and suddenly just give women our equal protection under the law if we ask nicely and then sit quietly with our hands on our laps. It's just not going to happen.

People need to be "uppity". They need to get into the faces of others. Change doesn't happen without it.

Ouch. That's a whole heaping dose of victim blaming right there. It's abused women's fault for not leaving, and not the abusers fault for...well, abusing? That's dangerously close to saying, "If your skirt wasn't so short, maybe someone wouldn't have assaulted you."

I'm all for personal responsibility, but...let's place the blame where the blame is due, and that's squarely on the shoulders of the abusers.

I guess I'm blessed that I don't share your anecdotal evidence in the slightest. Sure the men and women that I know who self-identify as being feminist have had bad relationships in the past...who hasn't, but that's hardly the defining action that moved them towards the notion that men and women should be treated as equals.

As for myself I was a feminist long before I'd acquired my first ex, even before I even knew what the term meant and had a chance to accept it after having rejected it fully....which I did for a decent chunk of time.

I don't remember the exact circumstances, but I very vividly remember being a small child and telling my grandmother that there were lots of things I couldn't do because I might not be smart enough to do them, or strong enough, or fast enough. But there wasn't anything I couldn't do solely because I was a girl.

And that's how I look at feminism. To me it's not about being beyond reproach or above judgement, but rather not allowing people to take the lazy way out. Don't like what's going on? Say why.

If I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong and explain to me why my reasoning or logic isn't valid.

I couldn't agree with this more.

I think the term is only loaded because we let who you call "the bad feminists" control it. Though, I've got to say your reference to Feminazi makes me think of this quote: "Femnazi. Because demanding equal rights is exactvly the same as invading Poland".



Are you kidding me? Mad? Seriously? Your comment has been the highlight of my afternoon! I've been laughing my @ss off!

The way I see it you were either trolling, or making some awesome meta-commentary on the topic at hand. Either way, I salute you sir. Comedy gold!

To be fair, it's both women's and men's fault.
Women need to be stronger and stop living in the shadow of men. I see alot of unequal hetero relationships of this. The woman as the "sidekick" while the man is the dominant force. And alot of this is honestly the woman's fault. A strong personality and opinion of oneself would reduce these lopsided relationships.
Ofcourse, popculture has played a massive part in forcing this traditional standard in the minds of many.
Most women just don't have enough pride in themselves, and that's when positive feminism can really help improve one's self-worth.
This is a big reason why abuse happens. Not just because the guy is a prick, but also because many women are just weak. They need to learn how to roll up their sleeves and get in a man's face like another man would.

I've mentioned this story a few times I think, so those familiar can skip it...

I kinda get where Spitfire is coming from though. For like a year before I met Mary, I was in love with this chick in my class. We were pretty much best friends, and she's still the smartest chick I ever met. She was a self-described feminist, which in and of itself wasn't a problem but she had serious "daddy issues" because her dad abused her mom and then left them both when she was very young, so I guess I should have watched where I was stepping. You could see the classic signs of feminist angst: hanging with a group of friends that was 99% males (and all blatant misogynists like me), always having to be the loudest one in the group or the one to make the most obnoxious, "unladylike" comments, getting angry when someone would offer to hold a door or a chair for her, etc. None of that bothered me at the time, in fact I only really paid attention to it in hindsight when I started to notice other women act that way.

What led to problems was that, in another cliche a lot of "feminists" tend to fall into, she seemed to only want to go out with guys that would treat her like sh*t. It's almost like a joke sometimes: Chicks rant about how rotten guys are, shack up with one who is clearly a piece of sh*t, they get treated badly, and use the whole ordeal as ammo for their "men suck" argument. The cycle repeats, and every time a genuine nice guy comes along they get the "I only like you as a friend" treatment. This happened to my friend a bunch, and she would always moan about how "damaged' she was and how nobody nice would ever want to deal with her. Meanwhile, me and all our friends would hint or nudge that there already WAS a nice guy that was super into her.

I should have known it was gonna end badly when she told me the main reason she wouldn't go out with me was that she wanted me to first cut my hair and start dressing like I was in a boy band. I couldn't believe that for all her rants about how shallow men are and only judge chicks based on looks, here she was in a self-perpetuating cycle of misery all because deep down, she was just as shallow as any man. Our friendship ended when she went off to college at Smith in Mass. At first we'd talk on the phone for hours a few nights a week, but eventually all her new "friends" convinced her that, by caring about her so much, I was "emotionally manipulating her", and so she said we simply could not be friends anymore. A few of our other friends just dropped her at that point; her feminist agenda was more important to her than any real chance at having the things she claimed she wanted in life, and it was painfully obvious to everyone but her. Last I heard about her, she was in yet another bad relationship, with a guy who treats her bad and even screams at her in public. It's a terrible cycle, but I see it happen all the time.

Why do they get that way? Especially the ones who take such pride in their "feminine strength", why do they allow their ideology to hinder and even cripple them?

In the long run, I ended up in a (mostly) happy relationship with a girl who isn't model-pretty or, frankly all that bright, common sense-wise (although she's prettier and smarter than she thinks she is). So it's all good for me. Her perspective is that the pretty girls should just shut up and be thankful guys pay attention to them at all, because she'd kill to be in their place.

It's an odd world, isn't it? The beautiful people envy the "normals" because they don't get ogled and harrassed, and the less visually pleasant wish they were the ones getting all that attention. I have no real point nor an ending, so I simply take a small bow.

Edit: Charlotte, I honestly have to cop to being in one of those "sidekick" relationships. We talk all the time about how people outside of our relationship would judge us because of the ways we joke around or the ways she prefers the attention fall on me and not her. Sometimes it just works better that way. In our case, by her admission I'm smarter than her, she's terrible with money and half the time when she tries to say something it comes out all wrong. So she likes to let me take the lead. Most times, that's a douche thing to do, but in some unique cases it's better to admit there's a dominant and passive side to a relationship.

There's ways to do it without spreading more intolerance though. I agree you must raise a stink in order to be heard but doing it by turning the same persecution back on everyone opposite of yourself, even if their innocent, isn't making the world any better. If you truly want equal rights for women you should also believe in equal rights for everyone.


The fault of the abuser is obvious. Of course anyone who would do that is complete scum but it's the woman's choice to put up with it. If they're too scared to handle it themselves the police would surely do a fine job especially if they're sporting a fresh black and blue. You can't refuse to help yourself and then continue to blame the abuser.

Not at all. I can only base what I know off what I see and experience. Your case is different. There might be tons more women out there in the same shoes as you. I can't say for sure. I refuse to have tunnel vision and assume you're a rarity but I will say the fact feminist exist based solely off what I said before is still a problem. It seems to me like they're in it for the wrong reasons, revenge if you will.

By that logic I'd hate all women because my Mother abandoned me twice, sold drugs, ruined most of my childhood, and almost got me killed. I refuse to though.

It's nice to discuss this in a mature manner. I tried having this discussion with one of my teachers and she wasn't getting it. She was arguing with me that all movies are filmed through the "male lens" and women are always portrayed as the weakest characters in film. I gave her several examples including Ripely and Sarah Connor but that seemed to only anger her. Then she got mad when I pointed out that the American Psycho film was directed by a women. For those that don't know it was based off a book that pissed off women so much they were pouring blood all over copies in book stores because of how badly it objectifies women.

FINALLY! You know, you're the first f*cking person to get this sh*t! I f*cking salute YOU!

The jig is up, now what the hell am I supposed to do?

mmm, good to have balls :P

I think jobs decided by looks probably are more common then gender favoring. Most clothing stores got good looking people selling and wearing the products.

interesting note about feminism. Some years back the police got new rules for increasing female officers. All male Police Chiefs would get a extra money bonus hiring a woman over a man from the Police academy, better grades or not. So someone barely making though the proper schooling might get a job over a top grader.

Feminists in general scares me, might be the first one I ever met, she was hostile and I felt she was ready to attack me and blame me for every rape and murder committed by men. When I turned down a monthly donation fee she was promoting she got really upset, that I was a penny-less student and a minor didn't seem to be of her concern. A girl I was in class with that year managed to drag me away.

gender, race and appearance shouldn't matter. What matters is who can do the job. That both genders don't have equal rights is beyond stupidity.

you know, in hindsight, this topic may have been better off in the volcanic asteroid section. But then I didn't think something as benign as "beauty decrimination" would elicit such a negative responce.

To all the men here, I'm sorry for any feminist that has ever treated you with hostility. It's the shrieking harpy ones that give the rest of us, who are actually trying to help out woman kind, a bad name. Actually I sort of have a problem with third wave feminism, as in I don't entirely agree with all their objectives. first and second wave feminism had the right idea for the most part. However in this point in the game, I trully and strongly believe that men aren't to blame for deficencies of gender inequality or discrimiation in our soceity, form what I've seen it's women screwing over women and discrediting the things our formothers fought for, and being plain old lazy, that are screwing things up for us now.

I'm not niave, I know that thriving sexist attitudes among men bear some of the blame for continuing descrimation, but women now adays need to work on themselves and take responciablity with how they conduct them selves and act in our society. Whether we like it or not, women can't screw up. Because one woman who acts baddly or perpertrates a negative female sterotype, they're the ones that become the example of female integrity, or lack of.

One example at the top of my head. Women wanted to be able to serve in the army along with the men. But then a few women make the good women who want to be taken seriously as soldiers, look bad by sleeping around with their male collegues and getting pregnant, and just basically acting like hoes. I have quite a few reletives in the army and and I've seen how some these women act. It's a shame. I'm not saying all women in the army will act like this, but boy when one, two or three or four female soldiers do, it paints every single female in a bad light, regardless if they are steller proffessinal soldiers.

It's not just this area that women have screwed it up for other women by being poor examples, this happens in almost every area in soceity where women are given a chance to make a positive imprint and they **** it up. Own what is yours and be mature. Stop pointing the finger.

Another thing feminists need to do is, stop looking down on other women. Feminisn was supposed to be about equality and choice. Giving women a choice on what to do with their lives and their future and have options. Female empowerment shouldn't be defined soley on the top position at the place you work. Being strong capable and independent is what real female empowerment is. You can be that in any situation or social standing in life. So if someone wants to be a stay at home mom she shouldn't be looked down on.

With all that said, Peanut I feel I should say some about your "feminist are fat dykes" remark but...I don't know. All I can say is that I take offence to it. But that might cause this to go on for more pages of back and forth. I have a feeling if this goes on it's only going degenerate further. I already don't like the direction this thread has taken.

There's nothing benign about sexism. Or at least, there shouldn't be. As for whether or not this should be behind VA doors, why? I've seen nothing uncivilized in this thread...and I'm the one taking most of the hits.

I'm kind of rendered speechless by your words.
I mean, I know what you're trying to say, you're just saying it in the most round about way possible.

We shouldn't point fingers at women living their lives how they want to live them, unless we disagree with how they go about doing that. That's what I'm getting from you. That women in the military doing what their fellow male soldiers have been doing for generations is bad, but a woman staying at home in her traditional role is okay?

You're right when you say that feminists should stop looking down on women, but my suggestion to you is that you go first.

You take offense to Peanut's words because he intended them to be offensive. Of course...those things are only insults if you let them be.

Seriously? Dude, that's kind of sad. Makes me think that more people need to spend some more time on Fark and 4chan.

Here have my favorite anti-feminist joke to salve your jig.

Q: "How many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?"
A: That's not funny.


There we go! Now we're totally on the same page! And yes. Yes, a THOUSAND times yes. And yeah...I've gotten more than my fair share of balking when I mention my support for father's rights, and the dire need of paternity leave.

In their defense, it's never easy to have one's understanding of the world questioned.

No you're right, and I concede that you're right. But in addition to that I have to say that you're also not in that situation right now, so of course the resolution seems obvious. Things become less clear when you rely on someone for money and support. It's harder to leave then.

There's a whole different psychology going on here, that makes abusive situations not so clear cut as we'd like them to be.

Ahhh, see the problem there wasn't that you were wrong, or that she was. The problem there is that you weren't talking about the same things. She was using theory and you weren't.

In this instance you're both right. Movies, even movies with kick-ass female protagonists or directed by women, ARE filmed through the male lens, or rather...for the male gaze. I mean, if they weren't Ripley wouldn't be in her skivvies at the end of the movie. (Which isn't to say that I'm against that, because....DAMN. Just...damn.) Why? Because Hollywood believes that that's the only way to make money. The white male 18-35 demographic pretty much dictates how and why everything in Tinsel-town is made.

If you want a better understanding of why she was saying what she was saying, check out the link I posed up thread.

Oh American Psycho. Yeah...I really didn't like that book at all, and only barely liked the movie more. But then...I'm not a real big fan of torture porn.

I don't think there's anything wrong with women not wanting to be the dominant force in their relationship. I know quite a few people that are very happy with that arrangement. And that's fine. It's not for me personally, but then...that's why I tend to not involve myself in those types of relationships.

But yeah, I'd totally agree that there's a lack of self confidence instilled in girls in our culture. And what little there is, is based on what they look like or how they can best service someone else.

If you think that only applies to females, you're crazy.

My comment applies to girls only because that's what we were discussing.

So, you are crazy then. So glad that's settled...

But, seriously, you're trying to tell me that when girls have their priorities outta whack, they're victims of society, but guys have no excuse? Cuz that's what it sounds like.

Actually no, what I'm saying is that you're attempting to derail a conversation about women by saying, What's wrong with saying this happens to men too?.

For what purpose would I be trying to silence you when I was the one prompting a response? Just because a person gets the last word does not mean that they're right or just won the argument. That's childish logic.

You were prompting a response that was not about the topic at hand, thus ending the topic at hand and silencing it. Or, as the kids say, "derailing".

I'm more than happy to talk about social pressures on men in post industrial western cultures, I just don't think a thread about a crap study about "attractive women" being discriminated against in the work force is really the appropriate place for it.

Though I feel like I've got to warn you that I know very little about femininist theory, and even less about it's male counterpart.

Someone should really start a thread about it.

whoa, whoa, whoa! I'm in turn speechless on your reponce here. I...don't even know how to repond to you. What I'm trying to say is that, instead of women always pointing the finger at men that they should own up to how their behaviors can effect their cause and the rights they are fighting so hard for. It's hard to be taken seriously as a female in alot of areas in the work force, why excasperate that by doing something you know is going to make yourself looked down on and other women trying to be taken seriously.

I know what you are trying to say. I do. Women should have just as much sexual freedom as men do. The thing is it still effect us more negatively than it does men. We are under way more scrutiny than guys are when it comes to this sort of thing. A guy in the army get some chick pregnant, "fine. just take responciablity" a girl gets pregnant, it's "God, this is exactly why women shouldn't be in the army, is the typical responce. Maybe not as blatant as that but the sentiment is still there.

you can think that if you like. That was hardly what I was trying to say or what I was doing here. You took what I said too litterly on the stay at home mom vs. the career woman. I was trying to get across that having a career doesn't instantly mean you are more liberated or a better feminist than the woman who decides to sat home for a few years with their kid. Which is what I've seen some feminists do to each. Like there is a ranking system.

I'm very passionate about women's rights and feminism as I can see you are. However I think we just differ slightly on our views on different points. Which is fine. I still stand by what I said earlier, and I don't feel that I'm any less of a feminist for it.

Sage Ninja, I for one agree with everything you've been saying in this thread.

And plastroncafe, you've made some good points too.

I think we're all pretty much going to the same place, but taking different routes. We all want equality, but what that means to us and how we should get there varies from person to person.