Feminist Analyses
 

I know this might be a longshot, but has anyone written/read any reviews or analyses of the new show from a feminist perspective? I'm writing one right now and would love to hear others' input. I'll probably post it here when I'm done; not sure if any of you are even into that. Would love to discuss here too! I am way fond of April in this show.

I spend the bulk of my internet time in the corner that crosses feminism and fandom, and I haven't seen anything like that yet.

I'd very much like to!

Yep, I've read this article, which name drops this very site:

http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2...y-problematic/

tl;dr version: author takes issue with the show because April apparently doesn't have a personality and there are no head-strong women hero role models and so TMNT is sexist and detrimental to society blah blah blah. Load of junk.

If a feminist wants to talk about how male-oriented action shows should appeal to girls too, then I'll kindly point them to the nearest Brony fan site and tell them that My Little Pony needs more buff male stallion heroes to appeal to boys.

(Hey, remember when the Smurfs were actually a metaphor for an anti-semitic Marxist utopian dialectic?)

yeah...I see this sh*t going well...feminsit anything really seems to raise the hackles of most men including women (with varying degees of justification), so I predict a sh*t storm brewing...:roll:

I read the article.....it references a post made hwere on the same subject.....but I must have missed that post. Anyway I thought the article was bad.

Also, why we need to dissect a kids cartoon to this degree? Need more Quiltbag! April has a body!

Kids.

I disagree. I think the majority of this fanbase realizes TMNT has a severe shortage of female characters.

This is why they should bring in Irma in the show as April's classmate.

I meant feminism in general, not as it pertains to TMNT per se.

But yeah, there is a shortage of female characters in TMNT. Personally I was never particularly bothered by it. ALot of times the introduction of a female character in a show where the cast is mostly male ushually means she is going to be the "love interest" of one of them or become a source of conflict between two or more of the male memebers. That type of thing normally gets on my nerves.

For all that has been written about the chauvinism of male cartoons (and it's not entirely invalid), I'd argue that a lot of these shows are more progressive than girl-centric shows, in that they at least had a few strong females. Superfriends had Wonder Woman, the original feminist heroine. Transformers had Arcee. G.I. Joe had Scarlet and Lady Jaye. By contrast, a lot of stuff made for girls actually reinforces female stereotypes propped up by chauvinism, like pink stuff, tea parties, lack of conflict, etc. Other shows that have tried to be feminist sometimes prop up Mary Sues, like Kim Possible. This feminine deficiency is changing, but it left such a stamp on the past that I feel the relative stigma masculine shows get is unfair.

I do not want this thread to be an argument about whether feminism is relevant or justified or whatever. I'm really not interested in dealing with that ****. I am interested in discussing the representation of female characters within the show.

Despite a questionable introduction (we first see her in a slow-mo "she's the most beautiful girl I've ever seen!" entrance) as Donatello's love interest, I think this is easily the strongest representation of April we've ever had. I can't get enough of her. She seriously kicks so much ass. The first words she says are "You can't keep us in here like this! We know our rights!" and it's just sooo much better than the screaming-at-a-sight-of-a-rat-even-though-she-lives-in-NYC April. I do think the show still maintains an alarmingly small number of lady characters (and unfortunately they've added in two female characters for Splinter's backstory just so they could be killed off to further his development) but I think this show is making some good steps towards better representation. Irma's been hinted at as a possible character, and I'm hoping April's aunt gets involved somehow.

Please do not post in this thread again. I want a discussion, I don't need people like you derailing it.


EDIT: I am also starting to read that post about the pilot episode. I like it so far. I think it's always important to remember that just because something is sexist or has sexist elements doesn't mean you can't still love it. It's just important to understand and identify what the problematic elements are.

Well, there is speculation that Karai is actually Splinter's lost daughter, Miwa, but since that hasn't been confirmed as canon yet, we can't really say for sure if it'll happen or not. Also, I like the fact that Splinter has such a backstory that makes him seem more human in some respects. You can tell he has a longing to go back to how it used to be, but he remembers that he has four sons to care for and that he can't dwell on the past as much as he'd like to.

I do agree that there haven't been a lot of female characters, but I agree that April is awesome.

Just curious, what do you think of original toon or 4kids April then? Is Nick's April a better role model than the one from the previous two cartoons?

It is not always about wich one is a better role model per se, it's about the value and weight of the character. A show can hold feminist values and not have femenine role models, simply by giving the female characters some weight in the story. It could be done through villains just fine.

Maybe they're scared to introduce female characters because of the fans' reactions to Venus. IMO, they should bring back Mona Lisa.

My wife and daughter don't seem to mind. They each have their own favorite turtle and seem indifferent to April

The reason TMNT doesn't have females is because females are really just love interests on TV shows. And the idea of a giant walking turtle falling in love with a human is creepy. The Nick show tries to make it look cute, but it's pretty disturbing if you think about it.

If they brought in Irma, Mona Lisa and Ninjara they can add female characters.

In terms of villains both Tempestra and Shreeka would be good.

Like Oculus Orbus said, a character doesn't have to be a good role model to be a good character. But I think in this situation it is important that the character of April be a good role model for girls because of the lack of well portrayed female heroes. Especially considering that the main audience of this show is children.

"Females are really just love interests on TV shows." Come on. Do you really believe that? And if that were the case, why would you just accept it instead of challenging it?

I don't watch much TV, but in most TV shows I've seen, be it cartoons, British dramas, or whatever, women just seem to be the love interest of the male main character.

I find nothing sexist about this show. The TMNT story is about four male mutant turtles - that's the story being told here. Any other character is going to be a supporting character and won't have as much focus. I find it strange that some people think that the amount of female characters vs. the amount of male characters in a show determines whether or not it's sexist.

April is a fine representation. She's tough and smart. Yeah she's Donnie's love interest, but he's the one head-over-heels for her, not the other way around. Her character is much more focused on things like school, or finding her dad. She was even brave enough to infiltrate a Kraang hideout by herself and deliver a wire-tapped pizza (her idea) to the Purple Dragons. And Karai is another good example. She's crafty, witty and very skilled as a ninja. Both of these characters strike me as very independent in their own ways. And isn't the leader of the Kraang rumored to be female? Or at least voiced by one. I dunno, an evil female overlord sounds pretty cool to me.

I actually do find it offensive when some people go looking for sexism in things like this. There are plenty of things out there more deserving and it really just hurts the whole feminism cause, to be honest. Nitpicking this show is missing the forest for the trees - these females aren't making sammiches for the turtles, they're fighting them and cracking wise.

Yes, I wish this show has more girls, yes, I wish April gets a little bit more focus, but I'll judge this if she's treated well after season 1.

But to say TMNT is sexist is and reinforces the evils of patriarchy is where I get off the feminist bus.

Sure April and Karai were given "the girls the guys had hots for thing" but April doesn't seem to be interested and Karai seems to be just trolling Leo while showing off she's independent. She had the foresight to look at the Kraang and defying her father. Sure Tang Shen existed in all continuities to be killed, but she can't helped getting fridged any more than Uncle Ben/Bruce Wayne's parents did.

I think the fans are very unkind to 2012 April, and I really don't understand. Only the OT April is very involved with the Turtles' adventures while those who followed in future adaptations, while very Action Girls and doesn't need to be rescued, aren't much in the limelight at all (and it pains me to say that since I love Archie April, but she wasn't with them most of the time). I know the frustration is that April is the fifth Turtle like Carter and Ninjara and Cody Jones and needs to be with the boys more... but I think the show has yet to make her someone who won't be a liability to them when they fight aliens/mutants/ninjas.

I'm glad that you only wish to have discussion in support of your view. I disagree with the article and fid it rather whiny. My opinion.

My opinion relevant to this topic is that if a little girl watching TMNT (or any other cartoon, show, etc) has to see a female doing an action or being in a role to understand that she is of value in life, that this is a failing of her family and not a failing of society which requires some group to interject their opinion or comment on the state of society.

So enjoy your thread.

as a man, i would love any future daughter of mine that i might have to be as smart and independent as nick's april.

I suppose the problem is April hasn't gotten much screentime yet. This will probably change as the show progresses, but she does get little screentime in the eps she's in.

Well I read the article and I have to say that I don't agree with it. As far as the 2012 toon goes I think April is just fine. She's more of an action girl this go around...heck she's even training with Splinter! As for the other female characters (Karai and etc.) I think they're ok too. The article just seems whiny and pretty narrow minded.

If all you want to do is 'discuss April in the new series' then why go out of your way to put the feminist spin on things? Seems like troll bait to me...

On 'topic', I think this is the best version of April ever. I mean, she's my favorite at least. I prefer this design and personality to all others.

I agree April might need more screen time... but the show is about the TURTLES. And well... all 4 of them are male, kinda hard for it not to be male oriented. Had there been female Turtles since day 1 (as in Mirage # 1, I don't mean New Mutation) it would have been different... but it wasn't that way. Male oriented series with 4 male heroes, it's hard for anyone else to fit into their little quartet without looking for a forced 5th Turtle, be it Zach, Venus or even April.

I've never really dissected it beyond a simple count, as the turtles I have no issue with. If anything, April in the latest series strikes me as particularly Mary-Sue ish: an attractive, school aged girl, whom at least one of the turtles openly likes, adopted by Splinter to undertake ninjutsu training, and whom actually might have magic powers or is in some way 'special' - sound familiar? But to be fair, her character hasn't really been given a chance to shine yet. Karai's only a little better.
As I learned a long time ago, there in nothing weak about being feminine, (& nor is it the only characteristic of being female).

This show does a good job of reminding any male who's socially awkward, nerdy and not male model-looking that they have no right to their sexuality.

Put it in your shell, Donatello, and every other guy (unless you look like this):

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MvX74T_zrP...sean_o_pry.jpg

I love this thread.

I remember when the show was first starting to air, there was some worry here about how much of a non-character April was.

Half a season in, it seems like she's doing better. She feels like a full character, she's competent, and she's not the damsel-in-distress April has sometimes been in the past.

Karai, too, is a strong-ish character from her few appearances.

But what are we really settling for here? As far as we know, two whole women exist in this universe. They're both kids. April can be as spunky as she wants, but she still isn't doing anything without the Turtles at this point. And let's not forget that Karai is Shredder's daughter, has every aspect of her character filtered through being Shredder's daughter and, if you want to take it in franchise context, is based on a character who was originally the extremely competent leader of the entire Foot Clan. Now she seems stuck in a subservient role. (This, by the way, sucks the big one, and has since 2004.)

Bottom line: This show isn't doing anything particularly offensive when it comes to gender. In fact, for its genre, audience and source material, it does a lot of things right. But it could definitely be better, and it's okay to hold it accountable for that.

It doesn't. It's how they're used. It's what they do. It's how stacked that ratio is.

We have two female characters and, yeah, they're all right. But look at the roles they're in, and it's still an extremely stacked deck in a number of ways.

Yeah, it's a boys' action cartoon. But I don't think it's too much to ask why we can't have more gender-neutral shows of this kind. It's not like I wouldn't let my hypothetical daughter watch this show. Again, April and Karai are pretty good, and maybe this show even comes out ahead of others of its kind. But it'd be nice if there were a slightly stronger role model, or a slightly better ratio, you know?

At this point, it's ahead of IDW though. Which, while also not offensive in any way, suffers from the same problems with arguably fewer strengths.

Because when April is fully one-half oft the female presence in this show (and 100 percent of it for the first half-season), the two are entirely linked. In fact, that fact alone should be enough to prompt this conversation.

Most women hate feminism? I'm glad I don't know these women.

I'm willing to bet if the writers had April go on, "missions" with the Turtles and fought alongside them as a 5th Turtle character or whatever, people would start complaining about how April is a Mary Sue and how it should only be the 4 Turtles again.

What the Nick writers are doing with April is for the best. She's involved in the shows stories without being intrusive, sometimes she needs rescuing and other times she can take care of herself.

Oh, just to be clear, I totally agree. There's nothing I hate more than April suddenly manifesting ninja skills on par with the Turtles. It's not realistic and, in a way, it diminishes her character to just throw her in as a lesser action hero.

At this point, I'd just settle for April either 1) Getting more spotlight and development or generally being more active (not necessarily with fighting) or 2) Not being one of two female characters on the show, the other of whom is the bad guy's daughter.

April's good, but she still hasn't done much in the show outside of playing one of four roles for the Turtles: sidekick, crush, occasional babysitter or damsel in distress. We can do better.

They kind of run into the same problem the 4kids writers had with April, they can't exactly have her involved with the plot as much as say...original toon April. Its amazing how the old toon was able to involve April into the story of almost every episode and she did no fighting in that series whatsoever.

Unfortunately she also spent ninety percent of her time being kidnapped. :\

Get a little better, get a little worse.

true but the 4Kids version had Karai, Renet, Sydney, Angel, Joi, it had more females. We only got 2 so far in the new show.

I would say that this series had no problem having only two female characters, except that it has added a lot of male characters throughout the season. Then again, though, they aren't very good characters, and are up against two females that are well-written.

It's only a matter of time till we get more, I'm sure :3

personally I don't mind the lack of girls :D as long as the ones we have are cool in their own way I'm fine :3

April may have gotten in trouble in every episode, but she was fearless and never hesitated to leap into danger. She also does help the Turtles and save the day in a few episodes when you pay attention to it. I also think the writers pairing her with Irma and Vernon showed how she was allowed to be snarky and adventurous with them, making her look like the best role model of the Channel 6 news crew.

Though to be fair April, Angel and Sydney were the most prominent ones in season 1, and only April is the recurring character. The Nick show haven't finished its own run yet.

Yo, you are entirely missing the point. It is just not getting through to you. You have literally nothing to contribute to the discussion about female representation in the show. If you have something constructive and intelligent to add that differs from my opinion, I highly encourage you to add to the discussion. But all you have to give is a condescending "why analyze a show meant for kids??" when you yourself are posting on a website entirely devoted to discussing ninja turtles. For Christ's sake.


Do you really, seriously think that I made this thread just so I could get more people to scream in my face about how they think feminism is irrelevant? That I am literally baiting people to yell at me?
I want to discuss how /all/ female characters on the show are represented, and that is an inherently feminist discussion. I started with April because she's one of the only two on the show! Geeze.


I'm glad there's at least a couple people also interested and not just here to remark how they hate feminism. :razz: Everything you've said is spot on. I'll have more to say tomorrow when I'm sober and not exhausted.