Thoughts on DW Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Comics
 

Alright, so I finally collected all 7 of the Dreamwave Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Comic Books. I got that Dreamwave apparently abruptly absolved as a company (saw it somewhere in someone's older thread, while doing a search to see if this was already a thread?...) which sucks since it really felt like this series was just starting to hit it's stride.

At the end of Issue #7 it has an ad for #8 which is supposed to be the T4 Turtlenator. Does anyone know if there is a storyline or artwork for the unpublished issue? Obviously they at least had a rough plan for that issue or it wouldn't have the cool artwork (also hinted at in, I think, issue #6) teaser for the next issue that never was...

Did anyone else feel like the first few issues felt kind of flat? #2 was really weird to me...

I also felt like there was a gaping hole where Splinter should have been! Just seeing him briefly as a sort of conscience was almost a tease! I suppose they probably had big plans for him later on before the series got shelved.

It seemed like when this series introduced characters, (ie, April, Casey, etc.) they focused the entire issue on them, with the turtles only appearing briefly, and often only one. Like it would have been better to have Micro-Series or something.

I guess my main complaint is that a lot of the issues felt overly dramatic without enough context or mood to make you buy into it- they all felt a little short too. Maybe I'm alone in this....

I love the original Mirage Eastman and Laird stuff (haven't read the Tales (v1) stuff yet though) and enjoy the Tales (v2)- though I've yet to read every issue (work in progress). I enjoy the Archie stuff, though it is a horse of another color! I'm totally digging the new IDW Eastman books and so far I love the New Animated Adventures (IDW) books as well. This one- Dreamwave- for me at least, just didn't do it for me... How'd everyone else feel that has read at least a few issues?

My apologies if there is an old thread on this... I did a search and went through the most recent 6 pages of Comic Book discussion threads. Surely by now there's more fans that have joined that might want to weigh in...?:twink:

The first few were definitely a bit flat, but that's the fault of whoever decided they should be adaptions of an adaption that was melodramatic on its own. The original content was awesome to me, and I think this book getting cut was a loss. Wasted potential no doubt. I absolutely adored Leseans art.

I definitely think if the series had gotten to play itself out, or at least had a decent run, it could have been a really good series. It just didn't have enough time to give us a clear picture of what direction they wanted to go. I liked Issues #5,6,7. I felt like they were actually taking it in a discernible direction. I can't say I loved it as a series, but the art was good and if they had been allowed to keep going I think I probably would have ended up liking them.

But the question still begs an answer... Does anyone know if there is any artwork or storyline floating around we might be able to peek at for the unpublished #8?

This old thread has the answers you seek: http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/sho...ve#post1046905

Apparently the 2nd collected volume of the series contains...

Can be purchased used on amazon for quite the deal: http://www.amazon.com/Teenage-Mutant...=I1GNOQFP5EZS1

Yep, I was gonna answer that ^ as I have it in my collection.

I think DrSpengler sufficiently covered this series and its inherent problems:
http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/search/label/Dreamwave

He was actually much tougher on them than I expected. Back in the day, the only two issues I bought new were issues 4-5 due to their Raphael-centricity.

It comes down to what I've always said (and I'm glad DrSpengler agreed). The new stories were boring and dealt with stupid characters that were not in the show or had nothing to do with the show.Maybe the stories weren't so bad, but they should have been spread out in between issues that actually had the Turtles fight the Foot, Purple Dragons, Hun, etc. There was no reason issues 6 and 7 couldn't have used the Purple Dragons instead, and ended in a showdown against Hun. They really should have cut the BS and started issue 5 right with the T4 storyline.

The current series had issue 1 with Don and April facing nameless soldiers. It was a more enjoyable read, but they didn't continue the following issues with more nameless bad guys. Issue 2 gave us Snakeweed, issue 3 has the Kraang, issue 4 already has a Foot Ninja on the cover and issue 5 is showing Fish Face on the cover. That's how you do a series based on a cartoon series. Actually put stuff from the cartoon series into it.

It was the worst run of Turtle comics I've ever had the displeasure to read in my life.

And this coming from a man who reviewed Archie's April O'Neil: May East Saga! :lol:

One day he totally needs to tackle the TMNTA spin-off series: The Conservation Corps.
:tcouch:

thats a damn shame, bc the covers that I have seen for that series or at least the turtles art design is awesome.

Peter David didn't even really want to write it, he did it because his kids wanted him too.

Knowing that sort of puts a stain on the short-lived series because I know that if his heart had been in it, it could have easily went down as a great series (c'mon, it's Peter-freakin'-David!) rather than him phoning in a story that takes place between episodes on characters no one knew or cared for. For a series about the Turtles, they sure were scarce!

Lesean's art was fantastic and closely imitated the cartoon, so that is definitely a high note, and makes the series worth owning simply on that merit.

I didn't care for the stories personally but it would've been nice if they finished up what they had planned.

My friend says he knows Lesean Thomas personally and was pestering him for all the pages he completed for the remaining issues. Unfortunately, he remains unsuccessful in getting those pages. :(

I didn't enjoy the stories but I loved the art! Holy crap, I never realized there was 4 colorists per issue on the series. They must have had some tight deadlines on those books to need that many :teek:

What if someone did an online continuation, like what happened with Sonic the Comic?

Heather, you have so much more talent and skill than that colorists-by-committee that DW employed.

When you have someone of Peter David's writing on a TMNT book you should give him freedom. Didn't know he took the job for his kids, but nice of him. I too thought the book was just starting to get going after #4. But I believe if memory serves it was Peter Laird or Mirage's licensing arm was overlooking the book from an editorial viewpoint that hampered this comic to have a better start story wise. They insisted that the core TMNT elements be all reintroduced to the readers, TMNT origin, April's intro, etc. This hampered it for readers like us and weren't they adaptations of the early 2K3 episodes? Also I think the book died way before Dreamwave went kaput. I recall them saying Mirage was asking way too high a price for the licensing fee which made the book unfeasible to make ongoing. Maybe it contributed to their bankruptcy? Mirage shouldn't have asked so much. They just got the TMNT back into the limelight. An extra ongoing comic could have been something better to have around to keep the TMNT in the spotlight. All there was at the time was barely 2 years of TMNT Vol. 4 comics.

But don't most *new* TMNT volumes start with their version of a re-hashing of how we got the turtles? Unless you mean that the whole blow by blow of issue #1 with the truck almost almost crashes, ooze falls out, bounces into a bowl of turtles thing, then yeah, I agree. Which would probably be WHY the initial issues felt so forced- they WERE! :tlol:

If that was the case, then perhaps it could have been a much better series had the writer been given a bit more play with how the opening worked out. As it sits, based on the fact that we get a different viewpoint (kid focused on the turtles falling into the sewer- we as the reader don't even focus on the crashing ooze dispensing truck), it definitely appears that the writer wanted to take it in a different direction or have a different feel/take on the origin story.

But then again, in issue #2 where April be trippin'... I think he took a bit much free reign... just my opinion though! It seems like to me that that issue didn't seem to mesh well with how she was portrayed throughout the rest of the short-lived series.

It also really felt like, to me, the writer felt much more drawn to the human characters in this series, more than any others I have read. IMO, it was almost as if the turtles were secondary characters, when you compare this series to some of the others- original Mirage, new IDW, New Animated IDW, etc. Just seems that way to me...

Its a damn shame that the series got cancelled, my favorite turtle design is from the 2k3 cartoon. I just loved everything about the series. (except after season 5, little sketchy :lol:)

I'm going to have to agree with this one.

I bought the first two issues digitally on a whim once and thought they were okay? I actually thought the first was a decent start to a new series, despite the lack of Turtle appearances and its heavy reliance on the cartoon.

I promised myself I'd buy the rest if I ever found the trades cheap enough. Though maybe I was just desperate for reading material at the time?

They're worth grabbing if only for the art, even if it is a bit light on turtles.

Eh, they were ok. Lot of wasted potential, though.

I can't really disagree with any of Spengs's criticism. At the time even the art didn't bother me much but I was reading a dozen books a week. Having not looked at it in a while before now... yeah, that art is pretty awful. "Style" is one thing, but... ouch.

I'm not out to pick on anybody in this thread; everyone is entitled to their own tastes and what they personally define as "good".

But I honestly cannot get behind the idea that Lesean Thomas was a good artist. Every panel of his is just littered with fundamental flaws and mistakes to the point where they cannot be glossed over as "stylistic choices". It's just bad art, plain and simple.

He draws everything separately on a tablet and then combines them after the fact, to the point where the characters never look like they're physically interacting with each other, objects or the environment. They all end up looking like they're floating in different dimensions, on different planes of axis.

This is a prime example. The people aren't drawn in the same perspective as the environment and aren't interacting with the objects in it. Everyone's off in their own dimension. Is that guy with the mustache completely two-dimensional? He has to be if he's somehow standing between the curb and the car parked against it.

That's not "style", that's a lack of basic composition.

Little April's teeth are all the exact same size and shape. No canines, no bicuspids, no molars... an entire mouthful of incisors.

That's not "style", that's a lack of basic anatomy.

Drawing April's face in the exact same three-quarters perspective in every panel because it's a simple, easy shortcut is not "style". It's substituting bland, monotonous stock poses and angles because they're easier and don't require one to step out of their comfort zone.

Drawing Casey with his golf bag draped over his right arm as he goes flying, then draped over his left arm when he hits the ground isn't "style". It's a lack of proof-reading skill and understanding of panel to panel layout and continuity.

This 5 year-old girl is supposed to be sullenly explaining that her mommy has been taken away by doctors, but instead looks like she's shooting Raphael bedroom eyes. That's not "style", that's an inability to craft appropriate facial expressions that match the situation and dialogue.

Drawing a character's eyes drifting in opposite directions isn't style, it's... Jeez, I don't even know WHAT to call something that bad. And also in that series of four panels, check April's expression in the bottom right. She's supposed to be reacting in shock, but he kept her eyelids still partially laden while her eyebrows are rising at peak height. That's called a "dull surprise" (something Dreamwave artists were notably good at). And her facial features aren't even aligned right. Here chin is pointing straight down, but all her features are lopsided to convey a totally different angle.

And then there's THIS masterpiece, right here. Just LOOK at that. The scale between foreground characters is way off, another setback of drawing everything separately in a tablet and then pasting it all together in the end (like putting stickers over a photograph). Look at the awful attempt at foreshortening on the guy in the background's right arm. Why is the big guy's arm SINKING INTO his leg? His knee is pointed directly level to the reader, so it isn't tilted up to block the view of his arm. And his arm HAS to be sinking into his flesh, otherwise it wouldn't be so skinny.

And that's not even getting into blatant, shameless shortcuts, like copy-pasting the same art across multiple panels so you don't have to redraw anything.


This was 10 years ago and maybe he's changed, but circa 2003 Lesean Thomas struck me as an artist in a hurry to be famous but without the fortitude and patience to actually practice the fundamentals of the craft. Basic layout. Basic anatomy. Basic perspective. All those cornerstones that an artist NEEDS to understand before they can develop their own unique style.

Instead, he uses "style" as a substitute for "substance". Perspective is off? "It's my style". Anatomy is brutalized? "It's my style". Layout continuity is jacked up beyond coherency? "It's my style".

"Style" has become a sort of "criticism-proof vest" that lesser artists use so that they can never be held accountable for their mistakes or overall lack of ability.

I'm sorry, but I cannot look at Lesean Thomas's art and see anything good about it. And it isn't a matter of "style". He just doesn't know what he's doing. Or at least he didn't back in 2003 when he drew this stuff.

Good lord. Wow. It's certainly not as good as my vague memories imply. You're right on every technical point, that's for sure. I gotta admit it's been a loooong time since I gave these a read, and then I was hardly a comic reader or competent artist at that time, so I didn't pick up on any of this. I still do really like his turtles, but that's all.

What I didn't like was the artists making 90% of the characters black out of reverse discrimination. Lesean is known for this, purposely making as many characters black as possible out of spite.

I remember buying every issue and reading them the week they came out, and that's where my memory of this series stops. Either I have some form of mental deterioration or it really was bad.

I'll have to dive into my dusty, unorganized, college-era short boxes and give them a reread sometime.

I wonder why no other company snagged up the liscense. It was made during the beginning of the series. It lasted enough seasons for done other company to make 2k3 based comics. It's like dw killed it for anyone else dooming the show to not have a good comic series like the 90s and 2012 ones.

I still would have liked Archie to follow the sonic route and keep the series going even when turtle mania died. I would have liked to have seen small 2k3 references work their way in there whenever 2093 came along.

Yeah I always wondered why Archie didn't get the TMNT license again with the 4kids series started.

Does anyone know if the comic was pitched to Archie back in 2003?

Spengs, all of that was spot-on. I'm pretty sure it was Neal Adams, a master craftsman if there ever was one, who famously said something along the lines of "'Style' is just an excuse for not knowing how to draw properly."

Sadly, there were a LOT of books back around 2000-2004 that had art similar to LeSean's "style", all over the place, even at DC and Marvel, so at the time I guess his didn't stand out as much, but man, that stuff is a trainwreck.

Wasn't he "discovered" by Rob Liefeld? That sure explains a lot, if true. One hack mentoring another. :lol: (What's funny/sad to me is that almost 30 years later and Liefeld still sucks, yet still gets work and is a semi-star even now. Madness.)

Thank you very much!

As for LeSean Thomas, he's still around and he does some pretty awesome stuff nowadays http://leseanthomas.deviantart.com/ He's recently done work on Black Dynamite, The Boondocks, and I think he also did stuff for Legend of Korra.