Timothy/Pulverizer/Mutagen Man- a lost cause?
 

Judging by the recent episodes that involve Timothy, do you think that Donnie should give up on him?

Leo's words about Timothy not really existing anymore definitely implies that Don could, but I don't know, it would seem a bit OOC of Don to give up without doing the best he can before realizing it can't be helped.

No way. Like Donnie said, Tim be the key to help him create a retro-mutagen. If anyone can figure out a cure, it's Donatello.

Being the key to a retro-mutagen doesn't necessarily mean Tim would be one of its beneficiaries. Guinea pigs often aren't.

No, even though the situation looks hopeless, chances are the real Timothy might still be in there somewhere.


Even if the chances are almost zero, Don would never give up on him. Timothy is his responsibility, and he now also sees him as a friend. If anything, the events in this episode made Donatello only more determined to find a cure.

I feel like Timothy/Mutagen Man is one of the most tragic characters in a cartoon I've ever seen, which I love. Personally I kind of hope that he never gets turned back, because I think that makes the story more interesting. But I don't think that Donatello will give up trying. :tgrin:

Yes.

I too don't want him to change back. He got what he wanted to be, an ugly mutant as ugly as his soul.

I'm sure Don thinks there's still hope of restoring him, and I would like for that to happen even though it was his fault for pouring the mutagen on himself. I would just like for it to happen for Don's sake so he can get over this guilt he harbors.

wow that's pretty dark of you :teek:

But he didn't have an ugly soul. How is wanting to be a hero and accepted ugly? Save that for Chris and Xever,

No, as stated in other posts, Donnie is responsible for him.

Plus if he believes Timothy is the key to finding a cure, he would eventually have to revive Timothy from his current frozen state. So I think it's safe to say this Donatello/Mutagen Man arc has just begun.

I think you summed up things very well.
They've created a dynamic now with Mutagen man and Donny and i think they'll keep it as you said. So I guess he is a lost cause, but as Splinter said 'There's always hope' and that will probably be what Donny carries forward with when dealing with what Timothy had become.

My theory is that he stabilizes in body but not in mind, becoming Titanus.

I think Donnie may end up eventually having to kill the Pulverizer. It's possible that creating the retromutagen mutagen may have the negative effect of killing the Pulverizer. Which will cause Donnie to doubt whether he can ethically create a cure to restore April's father if it will cost the life of another innocent person.

I'm afraid Don wouldn't have the heart to harm Tim... so most likely if it does goes to that path, one of his brothers would be the one to end him.

Is it reversible? Dunno.

But like you said, it's his fault he ended up the way he is, if he was cured, it would come off as a cop out and it would defeat the purpose of any drama estsblished. I'm sure Don will eventually learn to let it go and accept Tim's fate if there's no hope for him. Plus, I partially agree with Shark Blade. Teenager or not, he made several dumb decisions, and now, he's gonna have to live with the consequences.

I guess I feel sympathy more with Don's feelings and how he's beating himself up over all of this. I do want there to be a cure for April's dad's sake, but if he could cure Timothy, maybe it would help him to not beat himself up. If there's no cure, then I hate to think how Don would react to that failure.

It's not a matter of if it's his fault or not, the fact is Donnie was responsible for him. Donnie knew from the start what he was getting into with Pulverizer and chose to do so regardless, that thus makes Donnie as much if not more at fault than Timothy.

If you take your child someplace, and he walks off and disappears, is it the child's fault for walking off? Or is it your fault for not taking care of him and watching over him?

Isn't this exact conversation going on in the episode thread?

My thoughts exactly, JTH. Don feels responsible for him since he decided to take him on as his pupil, so if there's no cure, then he will feel that it's his fault since he wasn't able to succeed in his goal.

Can't argue with that, but I have to ask, where does Donnie draw the line? Why would he want to find a cure for Tim even after he tried to murder Him, his family, April & Casey? And don't try to tell me "He wasn't in control of his actions"

Because that's the way Donnie is. Of all the turtles, he's the most compassionate and kind-hearted. I believe he even said "my friend" after Mutagen Man got frozen.

Donatello isn't holding Timothy/Mutagen Man accountable for his actions, and Leonardo (although from a different view) acknowledges that the Timothy they knew is gone.


First Timothy was only a responsibility for Donatello, but later on (in the episode where Tim got mutated) he actually started to care for him, being reflected in his frustration about Tim making the worst choices every time. And Donnie's actions in this episode and his interactions with Timothy before and after he escaped show that he cares about him.

As an audience we can believe or feel Mutagen Man has crossed the line and that Donatello may have to give up on him. But Donatello not giving up on Timothy shows his strength as a character.

^ This entirely. Couldn't have worded it better myself.

Donnie is also responsible for April and her father as well. Eventually when push comes to shove, how is Donnie going to end up making that wrong a right again?
And if given the choice between the two, who is he going to sacrifice?

Am I the only one completely confused about the whole Mutagen Man/Pulverizer/Timothy plot now? Why does he keep drinking Mutagen? Why does he like April? Why are the other turtles so harsh ? Why is this forum so divided on their on their opinions of him?

So many questions...

One would say Timothy was a lost cause even BEFORE the Mutation

It seems Mutagen Man needs Mutagen as an energy source, maybe it will unlock more abilities for him in the future.

The turtles being harsh to Timothy was something that bothered me as well, the turtles saw him more as an annoyance/hindrance who kept making the wrong choices. (They weren't wrong about that) Donatello was the only one who took him "under his wing" and began to care for him over time.

As for April, probably because Donatello kept talking about her and telling his life story to Timothy while he was in his lab.

I think Donnie will find the cure for The Pulverizer/ Timothy horrific mutation in order to try to find a cure for Mr. O'Neil as well. Hope is a great feeling.

I felt bad for Timothy when he turned into Mutageman. Donatello feel bad for him because Don took Timothy under his wing and became his master. Timoty originally tried (unsuccessful) to become a hero. Donatello was the one who realised about it, and even gave Timothy an advice to train more.

Unfortunately, Timothy misunderstood the advice, and went with the foot unaware the foot are a evil clan and this led him to become Mutageman.

It wasn't the Turtles's fault, but it was Timothy own's impatience. Worst, when he was allowed to move in the episode "Mutagen Man Unleashed", he attacked the turtles, even Donatello, his former friend and teacher. Despite, Donatello still has hope for him, and regards him as his friend, even when Mutageman tried to kill all them.

No, I'm a bit confused with it all.

I think it's to do with his ability to walk around and move. With out mutagen, I'm guessing he can't move.

That's from all the talking Donnie does about April. Timothy hears this and thinks that April will be his friend due to how kind she is.

It's because they thought he was going to hurt April, and since the turtles are still April's friend, they want to protect her.

Erm... This one i can't answer.

When Casey mentioned having a friend named Nick, it makes me wonder if he had anything to do with Timothy's background.

I mean, we haven't even learned of Timothy's past. I'm interested.

I must be missing something. What does Casey having a friend named Nick have to do with Timothy?

Nothing. He's just got a headcanon.

Yeah, I don't think Nick has anything whatsoever to do with Timothy. Tim probably didn't have a lot of friends in school anyway due to wanting to be a hero. Nick was just friends with Casey and got mad at him due to a simple mistake Casey made.

Oh no, Donny shouldn't give up on him. He seems determined to cure him, even after he escaped from the lab and all. Even after his other bros were telling him to give up, he's still obsessed with helping this kid. That's probably why I like Donny so much in this series. He's always willing to go the extra mile because he's just that kind of guy. He's got a great heart.

It made me wonder if this previous experience with the Mutagen Man (and any following) are meant to bring Donnie's pacifism to the forefront. We know he's a born pacifist, but I'm under an the impression its an aspect of his personality to that he hasn't accepted in himself just yet.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call him a pacifist per se in this show. After all, he's willing to fight to protect his family and friends, while a pacifist disapproves of fighting and is against it. I do agree that Don probably isn't comfortable with fighting at times, but I can't see him just not wanting to do it since it's how he's been raised.

Actually pacifism is more complicated then simply not liking to fight. While at it's core there is an aversion to fighting & violence, but almost any one who has a pacifist nature will tell you that there are moments where fighting is necessary.

Pacifism is a spectrum ranging from absolutely no violence and killing to okay with killing with the exception of certain armaments (I.E. will kill, but never with a gun.)

Splinter is what's known as a Martial Pacifist: That is a form of pacifism where things such as martial arts used as a way of bringing inner peace and enhancing ones life. But if forced to fight, they will not hold themselves back.

Donnie has attributes of a Martial Pacifist as well, but I see him more as a technical pacifist and a Shall not Kill Pacifist

A Shall not Kill pacifist is a person who will use non-lethal forms of combat primarily. But will resort to killing if there is no other option, and suffer through intense emotional backlash as a result of it.

A technical pacifist on the other hand will not kill a person directly, but he will leave them to die as a result his inaction. I.E. I'm not going to kill you, but don't expect me to save you.

It was clear that Donnie didn't want to have to resort to doing what he did to Timothy. When he was telling Timothy not to drink the mutagen that he was baiting him with, he was warning him in the hope that some rational part of Timothy was still there. And it was clear he didn't take the whole end result as a victory. What further back lash he will have as result is not yet known.

However pacifism can be a strength too because it enables someone to find solutions that cause minimal casualty, and can prevent innocent people from getting injured.

Ah, I see. Well, I never knew about the levels of pacifism. Thanks for enlightening me on that.

Not only was Timothy not part of finally creating the retro-mutagen, but Donnie didn't seem to think about Timothy at first. I am worried that Timothy might have a tragic ending for the conclusion of his arc.