Turtles and Splinter's Theology?
 

Here's a question I haven't come across any discussion for yet, and since it's something that came up while working on a fic, I decided to ask it here. Is there any canon mention anywhere of what faith/religion Splinter and the boys follow? I'm guessing that Splinter would probably be Buddhist, and might raise them up that way, but I've never seen anything to confirm this- and there have been Christmas-themed issues and cartoon eps (Christmas Aliens comes to mind) and there was the "Easter Special" in OT.

Not that in aware of
 

And for good reason too, I don't think theres any need to bring religion into it. The holiday episodes are just to please the masses.

Probably zen Buddhism, or one of the esoteric schools of Nihon Buddhism. This was at least partially confirmed in the IDW series.

How so?
 

Quote or example?

I think it's a bit indigenous to suggest that religion should play no role in a franchise where Christmas is recognized and celebrated. Ubiquitous background Christian holidays observances are still religious holiday observances.

Having said that, in Volume One of Mirage, I think it's Mike who says to April that this is really only their second real Christmas.

As for what the Turtles and Splinter believe...
We often see them meditating, and utilizing incense while they do so. Even going so far as to attain a trace-like state that allows them to overcome the vacuum of space, and for Splinter to astrally project.

I wouldn't go so far as to say this surely points to one Eastern Tradition or another, because I highly doubt the creators have done the legwork required to create an accurate portrayal. It's...pure Orientalism at work, and little else.

Realistically, however, chances are good that Hamato Yoshi was connected in some way to either a Shinto or Buddhist temple, even if he was not a practitioner of either faith. According to Wikipedia, a dubious source at best, it appears that a majority of Japan's population identifies as non-practitioner.

Interesting topic there Duckie. Never really thought about what they practice or if they practice any religion at all. Personally, I have absolutely no idea! Having never read the comics, I'm mainly familiar with the animated universe. But I've always imagined Splinter to be into... something. What, Idk. ZB comes to mind. Have no idea when the turtles are concerned. Guess we'll have to bust a Barny and use our imaginations!(insert moronic dinosaur laughter) Seriously though, thanks for posting this topic. I think it's worth pondering and discussion.

I'm 99% certain we've had a thread about this before, way back.

Honestly, most religions are human centric, I highly doubt the turtles would embrace a religion having some primates as the superior species as them selves aren't human ( save IDW). Zen Budddism or Shinto would be The most commonsense ones seeing Splinter is human or rat, always Japanese. Being a comics property, spirits and extra dimensional beings can be a reality, so generic spiritualism isn't odd either, seeing astral projection and other supernatural elements can be real in comics.

I'm under the impression that they've been raised Buddhist but that they may still observe certain holidays. In The Simpsons episode "She of Little Faith" Lisa turns Buddhist and believes that because of this she isn't allowed to celebrate Christmas with her family but finds out that Carl and Richard Gere also are Buddhists and also celebrate Christmas. So by that assumption, I believe that they practice Buddhism but still celebrate Christmas in their own way.

I always kind of thought that Bushido was like a religious code in the 2K3 series.

Considering there's the whole reincarnation origin in IDW I would guess they're Hindu but I could be completely wrong. I don't know about any of the cartoons or other comics though. Either that or Buddhism.

Never thought about the reincarnation bit. I think I remember reading some comic summaries a while back. And Bubbly brought up a good point with Bushido. Certainly sounded similar to a religion in the 2k3 series. Leo brought it up constantly and applied it to more than one dilemma. Although you could take what I know of Bushido etc, write it down on a napkin, and still have room to write a love letter. haha

Bushido is not a religion, it's basically chivalry, a way for samurai to behave and what morals to have.

And celebrating during winter time isn't a Christian thing only, it's an much older tradition then that. And don't forget that the traditional Christmas is still extremely filled with previous winter celebrations several church authorities have through the ages tried to stop the Christmas time celebrations cause they deemed it too pagan. "Christmas" is just the new name for what used to be other names, such as Jul/Yule. Like Easter still having the mane it had after the goddess that originally had the celebration and is the actual deity chickens, eggs and bunnies are tied to, since Eoster is a fertility goddess.

The origins of Bushido draw from Buddhism and Shinto as I understand it so while it isn't a religion in itself the practice pays homage to the two.

I too always assumed they were Buddhist, mainly because of Splinter and Leonardo's portrayal. They live a fairly minimalist lifestyle in comparison to the others and reflect inwardly a lot more. Throughout each incarnation though the religious connections are loose at best and very open to interpretation. Even the reincarnation doesn't really give any conclusive proof, if they were practicing Buddhists then it doesn't mean they are now.

Bushido isn't really a religion, it's an ideology though. The Way of the Warrior.

I think if anything that Splinter as a human was a shintoist while the IDW splinter was Zen Buddhist as he does pray to the Buddha to grant him and his family justice.

As for the Turtles, they are largely Atheistic. I'm sure Splinter may have lead them in some practices, but the only one who got into it was Leo.

Oh my
 

We got a nice little conversation going here. I'd have to agree with the initial thought of Buddhism. And the Simpsons episode is interesting and I really lean toward that but I try to leave religion out of it, considering it was a family show. Not like a Charlie Brown where they openly talk about religion.

Bushido is more than just "chivalry", though, it's an entire way of living and conduct that encompasses not only conduct on the battlefield, but in one's home as well.

As for Christmas being part of earlier and older traditions, this is true. Long before the Christian holiday we all know, there was Saturnalia (Rome) Solstice Eve(Celtic) and Yule (Norse). All are roughtly similar to Christmas as we know it today, with some of the ancient traditions still surviving to this day- the mistletoe, Yule log, feasting, etc.

You are quite right in the origins of Bushido, it does indeed draw heavily from both of those belief systems. As I understand it, most of Japan, while perhaps not actively practicing, still acknowledge or at least pay lip service to one or the other, or even both. And of course, Japan being heavy on adherence to tradition, still celebrates many of the festivals and holy days of both, as well.

Not sure what religions being human-centric has to do with anything. Since they seem to embrace so much of human life and culture already, why wouldn't they adopt some of their spiritual beliefs as well? I recall an issue in Mirage where Donnie was acting in the role of a shaman of some sort, for the spirits of extinct reptiles long gone. It seems to me that they would at least search for the "meaning" of who and what they are from a spiritual perspective. The question of "why are we here" is universal, it's not something that only humans would think of.

That's an interesting point. I suppose it's possible that they practice both, perhaps as a way for Splinter to allow them to choose their own path in what they believe. I've always thought they would probably be more open to the idea of learning a little from many different faiths, to find their own answers to spiritual questions. Since, as Candy Kappa put it, most religions don't have anything close to a situation or code that truly fits them. Maybe they are agnostic?

Hindu isn't the only religion that embraces or espouses reincarnation- it's just the most well-known. Even the ancient Celts had a "Summerland", where souls go between lives to learn from what they have experienced, and wait to be reborn. In fact, many of what are considered to be "pagan" or primitive cultures had similar beliefs, and some still do, with things like ancestor worship(Shinto) past lives (pick one) and magic or spirit-communication Wicca, Shamanism).

Bhuddismisn't a religion, but a philosophy- though that line can blur in east asian cultures, as far as western definitions of the term. And Bhuddism believes in reincartation as well. Remeber it came out of india orginally, and is originally based on some Hindu ideas and philosophies.

I said it's suggested, not confirmed. From IDW TMNT #5;

"..he prayed to Buddha, to all the powers of the universe..."

Yoshi prayed he and his sons would be reunited, and he would get his revenge on Saki (a very un-Buddhist concept, but still) I'd guess the fact his prayer was sort of answered, he might have stuck with his philosophy?

Only Splinter and perhaps Leonardo seem to be truly a Zen Buddhist, and its easy to see through their meditations, including in the episode "Enter: The Fly" where Splinter opens just one eye, meaning that he was in his Zen when interrupted. Donatello may be atheist and only enjoying holidays like Christmas/Easter secularly, while Michelangelo/Raphael may be simple "live and let live" people with no real religious affiliation, but not anti-religion that perhaps Donatello may be. Note that non of the religious aspects of such holidays outside of Zen Buddhism have ever been mentioned in TMNT history, and of course being a secular art should try to avoid explicit religious references to appeal to the masses.

I get its just a question
 

But do we really need religion in this franchise? I don't think it really has a place for it in here. It's not like a Charlie Brown or anything like that

I don't think Don is anti-religion and probably respects the beliefs of others since I'm sure Splinter taught him to do that. I'm sure he's just more of a scientific mind about certain things.

No we don't NEED a religion in this franchise, but it's fun to speculate about what their beliefs would be if they had any.

Considering the intersection of many martial arts with philosophy and religion, I think expecting the turtles to be an Atheist Space is more than a little short sighted.

It's a good question. And considering their rather unique life experiences, it could be rather broad ranging. Several different influences are apparent, all of which are valid. But I do not think it's ever been expressed in any full on,
"here it is" manner because it's never been a story necessity.

Plus, growing up in America, they are exposed to the melting pot of cultures that is unique to our country in addition to Splinters' teachings and their practice of ninjutsu. It's really interesting.

I was tempted to write that myself, but with the word Theology used, I figured it was used in a layman kind of term, just including everything "religion like" beliefs.

The turtles to me never gave the impression that deity worship was any way a important thing in their life, not to say they don't believe in deities, Shinto got a ton of deities and spirits but aren't necessary required for a deity/deities worship, like more prominent gods like Zeus, Odin, Yhaweh, Vishnu, Ometeotl or Oghma.

The turtles have seen a lot of stuff like spirits and deity-like beings, they never started worshipping them. Like Tony Stark, he parties hard with both Greek and Norse gods, he's not going to worship them anytime soon, nor do Steve Rogers change his religious beliefs while Hercules and Thor has a drinking game right in front of him.

In the 1987 cartoon, where only physical and science-based plots play a major role, we see some Christian churches (Unidentified Flying Leonardo, Ring of Fire).

But in the Archie comics, we see a lot of stuff based on religion, spirits, magic and supernatural, including two Japanese deities showing up to kick out the Japanese demon.

Sadly, my computer monitor is broken at the moment, but I know that in issue #45 of the Archie series, which retells the origin story, the Ooze-touched Yoshi goes to sleep and wakes up as a rat, having mutated during his sleep. He exclaims, "Great Buddha! What has happened to me!"--which places him solidly in that particular religious camp.

The same issue has Yoshi visiting Charlie Lama (yikes, what a pun that was!) in his flashbacks, the character who's a lama (teacher of Tibetan Buddhism), and a llama (spitty animal). This further shows that, at least as far as Archie Splinter goes, he was meant to be a Buddhist.

Whether he was meant to pass this religion onto his sons is open for debate.

Fred Wolf Splinter refers to his "karma" in "Splinter, No More". That's a concept in several religions, but in this case it was probably part of the generic "Eastern wisdom" package. If you want to be generous, karma is part of Buddhism and could make a nice headcanon for Fred Wolf Splinter's religion.

Of course, any type of TMNT canon is skimpy on the religious details. I don't think Splinter's origin would influence his religious practices--whatever species he started life as, he'd see himself as part of the religion he was immersed in.

In the case of Splinter being a rat, he would have been influenced by Yoshi to some degree or another (hey, if he's smart enough to pick up fighting techniques, he could probably pick up other things).

The Turtles would have been raised with knowledge of the same practices, but their individual personalities would be the deciding factor in how "devout" they were.

I think it changes each iteration of the franchise. But this is pretty much end of thread here.

There are varying degrees of worship and belief, so even that doesn't necessarily put him in any solid category. It's like a generic "OMG" kind of exclamation. Granted, one would probably have to have come from a Buddhist background (which Yoshi most likely does) to ever consider using that particular exclamation, but then again, I'm Wiccan and still often say "oh my god" in certain situations (though if I think about it before saying it, I usually pluralize it- "oh my gods".) And one can be nominally of a faith without ACTIVELY worshipping or following it. We've all heard of the C&E ("Christmas & Easter) types of religious people; you know, the ones who only ever express or practice their faith on major religious holidays. And then there are even agnostics or even atheists who still celebrate certain holidays in a secular way.

I think Splinter (in his Archie/OT incarnation) may have the most solidly-formed beliefs, since in that version he lived a pretty long time as a human, first. That would suggest his religious/spiritual beliefs were pretty ingrained before he mutated, and he likely would pass on at least some of his beliefs to the Turtles.

For some reason, though, I don't see the Turtles themselves as being all that solidly behind any one belief system. I always see them as more spiritual than anything, taking bits and pieces from various philosophies to suit each one's personal beliefs.

I could also easily see Donatello as being an Atheist, but at the same time, a lot of very scientific-minded people have stated that the more they discover about the universe, the more it seems there is a guiding force at work, but at the same time few of them go so far as to declare a firm belief in any particular deity. So it could go either way, depending on who was writing the story.

That's another point I tried to get across
 

There are so many people who just celebrate holidays but have no religious attachment.

Er...you're missing the rest of my post, when I said that Archie Hamato Yoshi visited a Buddhist teacher in the Archieverse, while he was still human, so that cements his religious practice as being somewhat active in that continuity.

And that it is possible for rat-Splinter to have absorbed any possible influences from Yoshi, since it's already canon that he knows Yoshi's moves.

Still, it doesn't have to apply to other versions of Splinter.