Do you think April is a Mary-Sue?
 

I am not trying to cause controversy. I want to ask a simple question.

I don't think she's a total Mary Sue at all, though she does have qualities that many label her as a Mary Sue such as the psychic powers, her progression as a kunoichi, and the fact that Don has a crush on her. But I don't believe that at all as she's not nearly as skilled as the Turtles yet, she hasn't used her psychic powers that much in the show, and the crush is mostly one-sided on Don's part. Plus, a Mary Sue takes the spotlight away from the main characters, and April certainly hasn't done that at all, so she's not really a Sue as some would label her.

Exactly. But she's dangerously close to reaching Mary Sue Status.

No... she's April O'Neil. How the hell...?

People need to stop visiting TVtropes and learn what a Mary Sue actually is.

No I don't believe that April is a Mary Sue.
Having said that I think a strong case for her being a MacGuffin could be made.

I frankly hate all these terms for fictional characters. People over-think the hell out of everything anymore. I'm surprised TV writers nowadays aren't mandated to sit down with a checklist of "Do/Do-Not" bullet points for creating characters. "Hmm, can't do THAT, that'll make her a Mary Sue, and the internet nerds will cry buckets about how unoriginal and uninspired it is. Hmmm, can't do THAT, either, or they'll cry and say 'It's Just Fan-Service'..."

Are they telling you guys the story, or are you telling them the story? Part of why I long ago stopped writing fanfic. I only did it for fun, and I stopped when I realized that I sure didn't need someone going through it with a fine-toothed comb explaining how my honest, best-effort ideas were "incorrect" (Which never actually happened, but I figured it would eventually, so I quit while I was ahead). So I can only imagine how people who get *paid* to write stuff and create characters feel when a bunch of people sit around taking the piss out of what they came up with, because it doesn't fit an arbitrary list of made-up "Rules". Lighten up.

Not really, no.

Not at all.

No, not all.

Heck no, a marry Sue is some one who can do every thing without flaws. April is far from that, don't get me wrong she's my least favorite of this series so it's not like I defend her all the time, just giving my opinion on what I feel is a marry Sue and April isn't that. Though she is getting better martial arts thanks to training with Splinter but...

Sure, April has a lot more advantages in this cartoon, but I'd say she's far from a Mary-Sue. With that said, I do think they gave her a bit too much when it comes to value.

- Immune to Mutagen (Mutant Origin)
- Psychic Blasts
- Advanced Perception ("Spider Sense")

Personally, I believe April's damsel role in the 87' show was more charming. She's always been involved in conflict, being a reporter will do that, but the Nick show takes it to a level I'm not entirely supportive of. You have to ask yourself if you enjoy April being the center of the Kraang conspiracy or simply a trusted friend of the Turtles.

(Also, I have to admit I'm a little bummed that this will never be part of the show. But hey! It's been done already. I'll just be glad it existed.)

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Couldn't have put it better myself, Leo. Yes, this is what I hate, too. If someone has a unique ability, they're suddenly labeled as a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. I once had a reviewer tell me that my characters were Mary Sue and that even my cats (yes I had cats in the story that the characters adopted) were even Mary Sue. What the hell? How can a cat be a Mary Sue? I still write fan fiction and if people don't like my OCs, I don't care. I'm still going to write them and that's that.

As for April, it would be different if she was shown in every episode and if the plot totally revolved around her, which it doesn't. And if she used her powers a lot, then maybe I could see it, but she doesn't do that either. She's there when the plot calls for her and absent when it doesn't. That's pretty much it.

She certainly have the ability to turn into a Mary Sue, she is a quick martial arts learner, got psychic powers. But she hasn't saved the day or done anything Mary Sue'ish as taking over the show, and she isn't unbeatable.

Since you've expressed a number of issues you have with this show, I find such a statement hypocritical. Criticisms don't become invalid just because they utilize an evolved lexicon; even if they at times become easier for humbugs to fake.

The fact is this; quite a lot of people who write fanfiction fall into the trap of making one character; original or pre-existing, too potent or too important or both. This flaw predates the term "Mary-Sue," to the point that the term was actually invented by a writer spoofing such characters. If you don't care to have a fanfiction picked apart, then fine; don't write them, but it's just plain unreasonable to suggest that every person who claims to be writing for the entertainment and consumption of others should merely sink into lalaland and listen to their ego alone. Fanfiction is infamous for that for good reason; people are naturally to at least some degree selfish, and when the tangible benefit of getting paid for their work is not an option, they too readily seek abstract gain in the form of self-gratifying drivel.

Yet while fanfiction is infamous for it, it does happen from time to time in actual, for-profit media. Venus De Milo is one of the most glaring examples of a Mary Sue in any franchise, and given the damage her show did to the brand's credibility, it is perfectly understandable that the fandom (and hopefully writers) have a firm anti-Mary Sue alarmist stance now.

My opinion: Whether Nick April is a Mary Sue is rather vague because she's underutilized. She's at the center of the Kraang story arc, as well as Donatello's crush, but those aspects of the plot are touched on so infrequently as to make it hard to see how important she is or isn't. Likewise, we don't know if April is unreasonably multi-talented, because we don't get to know about her enough to know what all her talents are. Then there's inconsistency regarding her abilities. In one episode, she beats Karai (though it's heavily implied it was a fluke), and then in others she merely endures against the foot soldiers while the Turtles and Casey do most of the fighting. Overall, I don't think April is a Mary Sue, but she's not a very interesting character, and based on Ciro Nieli's statements, maybe she'd become one if she became more central to the plot.

There is nothing wrong with a Mary Sue character as long as the character is written well.

Batman is one of the biggest Mary Sue characters out there.

Mary Sue characters can NEVER be written well. In fact, it means the total opposite. A well written character has particular faults and challenges to overcome that makes them both relatable and someone to root on.

Batman is NOT a Mary Sue. He has problems and fears that he too must rise above. Batman is flawed, which is the epitome of a well written character.

The measure of a Mary-Sue is the surrounding world. In another situation, someone with Batman's many talents could certainly be a Mary-Sue, but, it needs to be stated, so could someone with very few talents. Bella Swan is frequently called a MS despite being a pretty worthless wuss, because of how everyone lines up to cater to her. The label refers to characters who, either through unreasonable gifts or inexplicable circumstances, never face any real challenges and waltz through life. That is obviously not Batman, who faces foes that are a match for him, and never really wins his war on crime.

April fits a lot of the criteria, but as the whole show hasn't been sucked in by the gravity of an April-shaped singularity, she isn't a true Mary Sue.

And Mary Sues are only mostly a bad thing. There are franchises that have thrived off of their Sue. The modern "Bat God" interpretation of Batman is a textbook Mary Sue, for example. Less so in his own books, but definitely on the Justice League.

Batman certainly can seem a bit too powerful when put on equal terms with metahumans, but it's worth noting he's the version of a superhero many fans like the best. Not that many people actually like Superman these days, and Wonder Woman's popularity has waned in a world where the concept of a female superhero is no longer seen as an exciting feminist milestone. Batman also has the benefit of loads of backstory to some degree explaining why he has what he has.

Well as I've said several times that I feel April is a Mary Sue, I guess it behooves me to weigh in here. ;) Now, after reading everyone else's thoughts on the matter, it's entirely possible that I'm being a bit harsh; so these are just my opinions only and I'm definitely not saying that I'm right and everyone else is wrong.

To me, April really began coming off as a Sue - or at least Sue-ish - once we hit Season 2. The reason I feel that way is that we never see her experiencing any negative consequences or real problems. She's smart, attractive, we certainly don't get the impression that she's a loner at school. I feel like for most of this season, the vast majority of her interactions have been with either the two guys who're crushing on her (Donnie and Casey), or with Splinter who seems to view her as a surrogate daughter and trains her as a kunoichi. The only exception to this is Irma, who she keeps ditching and allowing Casey to insult at every turn.

In the first season, we had April showing Mikey how to surf the web, we had Leo coming to her to talk about meeting Karai. In Season 2, we haven't had those kind of moments.

That, combined with the continuing Kraang plot, finding out that she's a mutant with psychic powers - and absolutely zero negative consequences because of that, are really giving me a Special Snowflake Syndrome vibe.

We're not seeing her suffering from headaches or hallucinations as a result of her psychic powers. She's not a social pariah. Arguably the only problems that she consistently experiences are:

1) her father disappearing and mutating, however we never see any real emotional devastation in regards to this, let alone problems with having to explain what happened to him, how she explains this to her aunt, problems with the police over his repeated disappearances, problems with her aunt/hiding secrets from her aunt, her crying at night because she misses her dad, etc etc; and

2) the Kraang constantly trying to kidnap her, but as she's always rescued by the Turtles anyway, this doesn't feel like a negative consequence so much as a plot device.

Once her old man does get demutated, everything's back to normal. He doesn't freak out and forbid her to see the Turtles anymore. She doesn't appear to be suffering under the weight of hiding the Turtles' secret. Furthermore, she doesn't really seem to have any major flaws or weaknesses.

Anyway, those're just my thoughts - I hope I haven't upset anybody; as I said, it's solely my interpretation of what we've seen and is by no means the Universal Truth of the character. :)

By the technical definition of the term, she doesn't fill the criteria for being a true Sue - however I do feel that she seems to have a lot of perks and not many downsides.

Once again, hope this didn't make anybody mad as that's not my intent!

Yeah, ok..

He's Batman because of his flaws, thinking about it. He has many issues. Check out the comics after Jason Todd was killed out.

Anyway, I don't feel April is a Mary Sue character. She's not a flawless character, nor is she viewed favorably by everyone, meaning the other characters. A Mary Sue/Gary Stu is a perfect character. April isn't. If other characters can use or say something negative about said character then that character isn't perfect. How did Leo put it...she's stubborn.

Yeah she has the Kraang thing going on, but that feels more like a plot convenience. She is learning how to fight, but even Splinter said at one point that she's still learning and we see that April has stubbornly joined them to fight, despite being a novice. Her fight against Karai had April losing badly. She only won because of luck, not skill.

So yeah...not a Mary Sue in my book. An example of one is probably Lola from Hey Arnold. She could say or do no wrong and the characters around her treated her in that fashion...minus Helga since she had a crush on Arnold and he liked Lola.

It not that April is a mary sue is just she is a main character who treated like a side character and that's frustrating.

Now this would be fine but when you tell us that "she's the fifth ninja turtle" without a whole lot of characterization, it leave an impression of a mary sue that is told in narration that she good and skilled. It just as same as telling rather then showing.

If you want a stronger character rather then a stronger fighter then give her a conflict that she has to resolve herself or issues that she has deal with on the daily bases like Leo trying to the right thing and learning how to grow up to be a better leader, Raph learning to control his temper, Mikey on trying to make friends and being taken seriously, and Donnie's when he trying make use of his knowledge to better himself.

Batman gets a pass because he's a dude.
Any female character given Batman's traits, situation, and backstory would be listed as a Sue in a New York Minute.

Bruce isn't a perfect character though, so the "Gary Stu" label wouldn't fit. He has too many issues that he's still overcoming.

He does seem to be highly intelligent and have great detective and fighting skills, but he's not written as a perfect character, imo...comic wise...

Batman's issue was that he was emotionally distant. He acted social for his play boy persona but when it comes to like a justice league christmas party, he would be one of those guys that would rather stay at home rather then going out.

And he might be crazy.

He's also selfless to a fault at times. Batman wins battles against metahumans, which some people indeed think he shouldn't be able to win, but as talented and equipped as he is, he doesn't ever win his war on crime. He won't kill people, so his enemies keep coming back, and he (barring spin-offs) won't quit fighting the good fight. A Mary Sue is a character who constantly gets his or her way without much perceivable effort or growth. Batman is admired by many because he could be that sort of person, but he chooses not to be.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Well I speculated back in February that she was developing some Mary Sue traits (not a full-fledged Mary Sue), and it's more or less stayed the same since the series hasn't focused as much on Nick April since "The Kraang Conspiracy".

The thing with Batman, is that the knows every singe known martial art, have a extreme record of skillsets, not only a master detective, but also a near meta-human athlete, high degrees in various scientific fields. Rich and handsome with a dark and mysterious past, brooding loner but works with teams. Able to fight drug addiction within a month while growing a full beard.

And to top it all a off, photographic memory.

So far what I've learned from this thread is that Mary Sues are awesome people we should all aspire to be like ;)

^^^
This.

Let's not forget that he completely healed from having his spine broken.
Look, I love Bats as much as the next fanboy, but...that's all stretching the disbelief a bit much.

The fact is, Batman is a product of a different era; one that apparently liked its superheroes full of excessive power. Superman had already debuted, and Wonder Woman wasn't far off, but at the time, superheroes were a new concept, and nobody knew if the idea would catch on to the extent that there would someday be too many to remember, so any given hero was given a whole range of powers. Batman is excessively trained and well-equipped by human standards, just so he's able to keep up with the metahumans. Whether they go too far in that varies, but it certainly makes sense for what they're trying to do, and if you're wondering if it makes sense, well, do his metahuman allies and enemies really make sense? No. The point is for a character not to be so gifted that the story has no suspense.

It's one of the key reasons I also don't call 2012 April a Mary-Sue. Yes; she has the gift of a sixth sense, but its combat functions are, in fact, pretty limited so far. She's good at dodging and using a sharp fan, but she's still a skinny girl who doesn't really have the power to knock out the many superpowered baddies in the show. She keeps up more than anything else. I grant the mindblast she used on the Kraang was pushing it, but that occurred only after they tortured her with the partial goal of unlocking her powers, which implies she can't just do that at will.

Man I loved that cartoon. My all time favorite show. I am a turtles fan, but I like Batman even more.

That did take a while, before Batman's return, we had Bane's rein and his fall, the new Batman going too far, and Bruce trying to walk again, and saving one of his friends being kidnapped in a wheel chair.

I think all that took a span of a year comic wise for that recover, and determined how bad it was, It is possible.

No he's not. A Mary Sue is a character that a writer comes up with as wish fulfillment to put themselves into the story. Now in a way, everyone wishes they were Batman, but I don't think that counts.:)

Adding on, the character is usually portrayed as being perfect in every way and well-received by the characters around them. It's like the character could push someone off of a building, but it's ok because all of the characters will justify the action or overlook it because they love the character.

The only "Mary Sue" character that comes to mind for me is still Lola from Hey Arnold. She could say or do no wrong, she was "ever so" perfect at all she did, practically, she was considered pretty and charming, and every single solitary character liked her (I mean in a general sense), minus Helga who was jealous if her being so perfect and well-liked by those around her, including her crush.

Also the villians forget their original motives and drop everything to get the mary-sue character because he wants (A. The Mary-Sue as their queen/love interest, B. The Mary-sues Power, C. The Mary-Sue on his team)

The only villain's that want April are the Kraang because her DNA can be used to refine the mutagen for some unexplained reason aside from the fact that she has Kraang DNA.

Shredder doesn't give two bits about April, the only time he has it was because he felt she could be someone to use as bait for the Turtles and Splinter. And the only reason he would want to kill her is for that same reason. Otherwise she is superfluous in his mind.

Actually, it's not necessarily a self-insert character; that's a common mistake. Wish-fulfillment is accurate enough, but a MS could just as easily be someone's ideal mate in their imagination.