Clarification of Dark Leo and Dark Raph
 

Okay, so I haven't read the comics. I'm in the process of trying to get a few IDW to get started, but I've been hearing bits and pieces of news that I'm not sure if I need to use spoilers since I'm not sure if anything is set in stone as fact yet.

My question is, what was the Dark Leo storyline about? How would it relate to a Dark Raph storyline? From what I've heard, could it be possible that Raph only pretends to be brainwashed by Shredder to get close enough to him to destroy him? When Raph couldn't get to Shredder as he was throwing Splinter into the drain, I just felt that he would be the one to come back out of nowhere and go after him. I had a feeling that he would try something sneaky and not go at him from the front, but from the shadows.

Anyway, I'd love to hear more about Dark Leo and how it could change the current show. What could we expect to see if there were to be a Dark Raph storyline?

My understanding is that its basically the Turtles version of the whole Anakin Skywalker turning into Darth Vader.

Basically Shredder kidnapped Leo, and had a spirit named Kitsune rewrite his memories, making him believe Splinter was evil.

I was the one who first heard about the Dark Raph storyline coming up. I asked Brandon Auman at the NYCC meet and greet about possible IDW storylines or characters being used in the cartoon (specifically Alopex).
To my best recollection, he said they try to stay away from IDW stories and stick more to old stuff like Mirage, the movies, and 2k3. "But," he said, glancing both ways nervously, "Spoilers: You know the whole Dark Leo storyline? We're going to have something loosely based on that, but with Dark Raph."

So all I know for certain, if you want to take Brandon Auman's word as fact, is that there will be a 'Dark Raph' in the near future. I doubt it'll be under the same circumstances (In the comics, Shredder wants an apprentice who is a born leader.). Perhaps Shredder wants Raph for his brute strength? Or maybe it isn't even Shredder that gets him. I'm thinking Bishop gets introduced and EPF does the deed. Or perhaps a new villain.


As for the comic, City Fall was what got me reading IDW. It's my favorite story so I'm insanely excited to see anything like it appear in the show.

Or maybe Shredder mutants Raph and he becomes Tokka.:teek:

There always a chance that a person forgets who he/she was after getting mutated.

My very rough prediction of all this:

It'll be late in season 3

The ideas always tossed around that someone switched sides because they're forced to, but I highly doubt that'll be the case with Raph, I'm thinking brainwashing.

I think it'll be shredder who does it, and probably because of something with karai. Either just her absence makes him want a new apprentice, maybe she turns human again and joins the turtles, so shredder takes someone from them, or just another attempt to hurt splinter after he finds out he's Alive.


Really excited for dark raph, because it'll be something different. Also sounds like Raphs getting a bulk of development this season

There is a shot in the episode that sort of foreshadows Dark Raph in Vengeance is Mine.

During the point where the Shellraiser pulls up just as Shredder is explaining his evil evil plan to tiger claw. There is one moment of inside the Shellraiser that is largely focused on Raph and Splinter. Splinter is standing just behind Raph as he is putting on his Shuko spikes. Leo is in the far background with his back to the camera.

Donnie and Mikey are completely not seen except for Mikey's hand handing Donnie a smoke bomb egg in the foreground.

We do have a couple of episodes where Raph is told that his anger is his enemy. And in one of the Shredder/Splinter fights...Shredder does say that his anger fuels him and makes him strong. So Shredder may realizes that Karai is a lost cause, so he entices Raph to give into his rage and join the foot clan.

In a way Slash from Slash and Destroy was a sneek peek at what Raph will become.

I like the idea of Shredder behind it, because in all the other incarnations, it was always Leo that had the Shredder stories, and it's is so refreshing to see someone finally break that mold.

Agreed. It'd be great if it was the same basic story as the original, but switching Raph and Leo.


Also, I just wanna say...I WAS RIGHT!!!!!!
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/sho...02#post1359202

What episode does Shredder say "his anger fuels him and makes him strong"? I dont remember that line.

In The Invasion, Part 2 Shredder says "And I am stronger than ever. Fueled by anger, by rage!" It's when he and Splinter just start to fight. Splinter also says "Rage is a fuel that burns quickly." I did find it interesting that Shredder said that in that specific episode. Especially an episode where he defeated Splinter in the fight. He defeated him the way Raph usually is, with anger as an ally. So I did find that really interesting.

I'm excited to see this, it will be good for Raph to get more character development. Although one reason I believe City Fall had such a strong impact is because the one who switched sides was Leo - the leader, the eldest son, the most dedicated of the four to Master Splinter's teachings. I think with Raph it's generally half expected that at some point he'll wander off track, he's the one most likely to challenge things and rebel. I'm not saying it won't work, I'm very much looking forward to it, I just wonder if it will have the same impact.

In a way it seems that Raph is the only one who the Shredder would see promise in.

Leo is skilled but he's to loyal to Splinter...to noble. In "Kuro Kabuto" the Shredder does have a moment where he mocks Leo by saying that that he's pathetic but that is to be expected when his Sensei is a weak willed coward like Splinter.

Donnie and Mikey I don't see him having much value in. Donnie he would say is a weak fighter and like all weak fighters he should be eliminated because they have no place on the battle field. In the Shredder's eyes Donnie's only saving grace would be his intellect and that also would make him someone the Shredder would want to eliminate simply because it would cause the turtles would lose any advantage with him.

Mikey would be too random...too erratic...so at best Shredder would put him in the most dangerous missions with the hope he would perish along side the Shredder's foes.

But Raph he could see promise in because Raph does let his anger fuel his actions. So telling Raph that Splinter is holding back his potential and why should his weakling brothers shine while he is so much better then they are and should by rights shine brighter.

But with the Foot Clan, he will shine and his full potential will be unlocked. He would no longer be retrained or forced to play second fiddle to people who aren't even worth his time.

If Raph ends up brainwashed to fight against his own family... Perhaps that may end up containing a rather nasty Leo/Raph encounter? Something akin to 2007? Though I hope all are involved, I can't see Leo being able to give it his all against his own brother, and I imagine that setup would be more dangerous to hold back than it was in 2007. :ohwell: If he zeros in on Leo hopefully Donnie and Mikey will have the opportunity to subdue him and get his ass out of that situation.

Well, I read sypnosis of the City Fall story,

City fall is a great arc. The way it leads into Northhampton is pretty cool as well.

Ah, ty. Would be great for Mikey if it's him. Though I also really love those moments/events that bring Leo and Raph closer together.

Well we never saw that beat down Slash gave Donnie. We just see Donnie getting dragged away and then when Raph and Mikey find him we are left with the impression that he was beaten and left for dead. And when he tells Raph and Mikey about what happened to him. he says the person that attacked him was like Raph, but angrier.

And also when the Shredder attempts to kill Donnie Raph is the one who deflects the killing blow

So maybe as a test of loyalty the Shredder has Raph face off against one of his brothers which turns out to be Donnie. Raph goes through with giving Donnie a beat down. But doesn't kill him. Instead he claims Donnie would more then likely not survive his injuries. So he should be left where the other Turtles could find him as a warning.

Dark Raph vs Leo would be awesome

I have a feeling that it will be Mikey that helps Raph. When Mikey calms Raph down in The Invasion, I think it is foreshadowing it but the next time it be in a more dangerous situation and Mikey could be putting his life in danger just to help bring back Raph to his senses.

I think at the end of season 3, we are going to see another badly injured turtle and it's not going to be Leo this time.

Or maybe not Raph either. We've already seen Raph and Leo on the brink of death already (Raph in the 1990 movie, Leo and Raph in the 2k3 and now Leo in 2012) But, I guess it's because the two more aggressive of the brothers are doing their jobs at keeping the sweeter brothers safe.

All of this sounds quite exciting and a bit alarming. God, it would be tough to watch Raph fight Leo, or Donnie, without caring about them. I hope they don't do any memory wiping as that is so sad when they get the person back.

I would like to see a huge fight between Raph and one of the other turtles. I would also like to see Mikey bring him back from Shredder's control. I wonder if this will be several episodes, so we can see them sans Raph for a while and how they deal with losing him in such a way, or if they will do this in one episode.

Are they sure they only want to do one more season after this one? There is so much to go through with new enemies, new allies, finding lost mothers, retromutagening mutated loved ones, possible love interests and the turtles growing up. :trazz:

Oh, and this would explain why we're getting nice and supportive Raph now, so later on we feel his loss way more.

I'm waiting for the collection book to come out so I can read the first four issues in one book, plus the one shots. The only problem is that they moved it from Oct to like Feb. I'm wondering if it will come out at all and if I should just buy the books separately. I'm not sure what to do, but I want to read it now so I can get caught up.

This I could totally see happening. I mean, they'll probably go with the "Leo and Raph" fight because those two are always fighting, but if he went after Donnie, that'd be kinda neat.

I call myself a fan girl and yet i enjoy watching Donnie getting beaten up (in serious ways). What is WRONG with me?

Ok, though, back to this. I haven't yet watched the NYCC panel, so do they say HOW Raph goes bad or did they just mention him going to the dark side?

I'm hoping for some foreshadowing to be honest.If this is the case, I too am hoping that it's Mikey that brings Raph back. Personally, in the eps, even the disliked ones, I do feel that it shows certain traits of said characters.

For example, let's look at Mikey...

Eps like the Squirrelnoid, Shellacne, Parasitica, Of Rats and Men, and Pizzaface, to me, showed that Mikey can be intuitive and dark (Pizzaface, Of Rats and Men), so seeing him with a hollowed out Kraang corpse on his head with its tentacles tied around his arms didn't surprise me in the least, neither did his being able to survive in Dimension X alone. In Fungus Humungus, we saw how he tried to calm Raph down, which was used in the Invasion, only it was effective there. It's just his way, so I could definitely see Mikey being the one to get Raph back again.

Anyway, I hope there's some foreshadowing, unless there already has. For the most part, Raph has always been the type to look after his brothers. I could see him going dark as a way to keep them safe.

I hope its more than 1 ep, though I could see it being in a single ep but it would be extremely rushed

Of course, it could also be Splinter's fatherly powers that bring Raph back around. Maybe Karai will infiltrate and bring him back home.

Surely there will be a battle though; will be interesting to see what they do with all this since the show has matured to a later time slot.

This info was not discussed at the panel. It was a spoiler leaked at the Meet and greet.

As for how it will go down, It would be a pretty powerful message if it started off with Raph taking down Donnie or Mikey. I feel like its going to end up being Donnie, since Leo or Mikey have the best shot of getting through to Raph.

I'm really looking forward to his new digs. Dark Leo looks so baller.

Man, that is so dark. Please tell me everything worked out okay in the end. How do you forgive someone you love once they turn on you and hurt you or your fellow family? I guess if they were brainwashed and are back to normal, you would do it slowly over time. Wow, they know how to torture us.

Well that leads into all those gorgeous Ross Campbell Northampton issues. There's a lot of hurt and confusion they have to deal with. You should absolutely read it for yourself. I feel like I keep spoiling chunks of it.

I was watching The Invasion again and I noticed some foreshadowing. :D

When Splinter asked "Where is my Son", Shredder said "I took him, like I took your child, so many years ago".

Did you ever see Captain America 2? I would assume it would be the same scenario with the Turtles.

I had that very scenario in mind when I thought about Raph being brainwashed. It was just as awful in Captain America, but he does seem to be able to come back from it, so not so awful.

Something tells me that the City Fall arc will start in that spirit quest episode. I can also see why Auman said "loosely". The Turtles, Casey, and April are currently in North Hampton. And that Anton Zeck and Steranko's mutation possibly sets up the City Fall episode(s).

I wonder if the Dark Raph story arc is when we are going to find out how he got the chip on his plastron and crack on his shell?

Could be a Jekyll and Hyde type of thing where Ralph goes back and forth.

I was thinking that too. I wonder if it is a bad or good memory.

This is a possible theory but what if Donnie's tooth gap and Raph's Shell Chip happened in event. In Slash And Destroy Raph says "Donnie tried to blow up the lair...again!" Indicating that something like that has happened more then once . We know that Donne converting the remains of his bo staff into a rocket launcher which proceeds to go off in the lair. Maybe that wasn't the only other time can be so that maybe Donnie had another experiment that went wrong and Raph pushed Donnie out of harms way and was hit himself and Raph in response punches Donnie in the mouth knocking out his tooth. And that's why Donnie tends to be passive aggressive around Raph because he doesn't want to be on the receiving end of his anger again.

While this is one of the few plots of the season I'm looking forward to, I'm a little disappointed too at the same time. To me, Dark Raph would have fit in better with the 2003 series instead, his anger and intense rivalry with Leo add the mix of Leo / Karai stuff is more of a reason for him to turn into dark Raph instead if this version, he seems more relaxed and Calm here next to 80s Raph.

I'm still racking my brain why the sudden anger and dark Raph.
If any thing this would have been the perfect time to introduce dark Leo plot with what's happened to him and how he feels right now, it also could have given some real emotional scenes between the turtles, giving reasons for Leo to fight back against this darkness he's been feeling all along since the season two final even if brain washed he should still deep down be feeling these things.

Though yah, out of the turtles I'd say Leo has the best shot of getting through to Dark Raph.

I think this is going to be the season 3 two part finale, and it's left off as a cliffhanger to be resumed in a season 4 two part premier.

Eh, I don't think so. I think Donnie was born with that. Some people are born with bucked teeth, some with large spaces between all teeth, some born with a tooth higher up on the gum, and like Donnie, born with a subtle tooth gap. Personally, I think they did that so people could tell the difference between him and Leo, because in some lighting, Donnie's mask looks more blue than purple.

I'm pretty sure the crack has something to do with Leonardo. Remember when Slash hit Leo for the first time, and he was like "I've been waiting a loooonnng time to do that!" That kind of anger had to come from somewhere, and not just out of the blue.

You see, I think it's going to work perfectly for this Raphael. He usually lets his anger go via outbursts, smacking or outright arguments, even with Splinter. Now, as I see it, he's been bottling it up, trying to stay strong for the family since Splinter isn't there, but I'm pretty sure, when they get back to New York, he might make it his own personal vendetta to go after Shredder. Raph saw the beat down Splinter took, and Raph was the one who shouted out to Shredder he was a monster, not to mention Raph was the one who stayed by Leo's side the whole time, seeing the bruises on his brother. I've got a feeling they might take a few pages from the comics, where Raphael decided to go after Shredder himself, and Shredder happens to have something that he can use to brainwash Raphael and turn him against Splinter and his brothers.

When I think about it, City Fall is #12 issues or so? And then a few more in Northampton regarding the events of City Fall. Dark Raph could last the better half of a season.