Has the "it's for kids' mentality been holding TMNT back?
 

And is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Lol, over to you Leo...

I think it's pretty much agreed by people who like other Turtles incarnations, such as the comics, that the mentality is terrible for the TMNT.

It's a good thing in my opinion. I don't like the serious stuff.

At the same time, however, everyone deserves to get their preference so a balance is needed.

If you're going to have "it's for kids" mentality then why bother making it an action orientated show in the first place? You might as well get rid of the ninja aspect and the whole deal with the Shredder all together when nothing at stake.

This being said, the "dark and gritty" stuff was not a big part of Mirage Volume 1 except in the first issue, Return to New York, Shades of Gray and City at War. The rest was lots of wacky zaniness. And as much as I like the more adult stuff, I prefer the Turtles don't take killing too lightly.

The show is at it's best when it's made for everyone or at least when both parents and their children can sit down and watch it and enjoy it together. Since TMNT is one of those properties that has more then one generation of fans, this the best approach when writing for this show. Arguably, at cartoon network when creators are set out to create something that they themselves would enjoy watching, then more often then not, the end result is often a master piece or at least really good and entertaining.

With nick's tmnt, it's sometimes hard to determine on whenever if the writing team is just having fun or craving to the demand.

The turtles' best stories are depressing & introspective, so my answer is yes.

Socially speaking it's an unfair stigma that people won't let go of, and if it's what society assumes and expects then it's probably what some are bound to keep aiming for. Though I assume the franchise itself would have the power to do whatever it damn well pleases for whoever they want to gear something toward.

Really it irks me every time I see that stated. I am perfectly happy to share with the younger generations, they will after all help in making sure the Turtles continue to exist, but any time I see "it's a kids thing/movie/whatever" I can't help but feel a bit territorial. No one is telling or insinuating to lifelong 60-year-old fans that Superman isn't for them anymore. ("Oh, the last Superman movie was stupid? Well its a kids thing, what do you expect? I just looked at it how my 6-year-old self would have and enjoyed it!") Hell, I don't know much about Superman, but as a "kids thing" TMNT certainly seems, to me, more brutal than Superman.

Turtles can't get no respect.

Yes.

Unfortunately it seems the "darkest" thing we have right now is the new movie. The IDW comic has its dark moments The Nick show has pretty dark episodes too, but without emotional payoff. And Nickelodeon is preventing the IDW comic from being darker.

That's just really frustrating because this show has the greatest voice talent that I have ever seen that's on par with Avatar and just about any show from Cartoon Network. :(

If only they let that voice talent lend itself with it's writing then by god, there would be some really great scenes.

The fact that, to most people, the "real" TMNT is the cartoon is a huge problem.

At the same time, you really need to have something for everyone. It's not like, I'unno, My Little Pony or SpongeBob, where it clearly IS just for kids and everyone else can like it if they want, but it can never, ever be anything else but what it is. TMNT can be, and has been, a lot more than a simple kids' show. The very best of its potential simply can never be reached when it's all watered down. Think about it: You have a main character who carries two swords around constantly and all he can or will ever do with them is slice robots. That's... lame. It's like Thundercats; you give the main character this giant, awesome magic sword, but it's a kids's show, so instead of the only LOGICAL thing you could come up with for conflict resolution (Being stabbed with the Sword of Omens is the One and Only thing that can kill Mumm-Ra), you do something entirely stupid just to avoid the violence so you won't "traumatize the kiddies" (Mumm-Ra seeing his REFLECTION in the Sword Of Omens defeats him... WHY give Lion-O a f*cking sword at all?! He may as well carry around a goddamn hand mirror!). Same Stupid Sh*t.

Ideally, you can and should have different "separate but equal" TMNT properties co-existing simultaneously so everyone of any age can just take what they want and leave the rest, like a Chinese buffet. I mean, just a couple years ago, we had Nolan's Batman movies and the "Brave and the Bold" cartoon co-existing at the same time. Both were very good interpretations of the character/mythology, from entirely opposite directions.

Thing is, Batman has been taken seriously for so long that having that kind of a kiddie show exist doesn't hurt anything. TMNT has NEVER been taken seriously because nobody has ever taken a serious approach to the material on a "grand" scale. Nobody reads comic books. That's why I hate having a "kiddie" TMNT movie universe when we already have kiddie cartoons. More people watch movies than cartoons. Let the cartoons be for kids, the Movies be for everyone/Grown-Ups, and the comics can go absolutely anywhere.

Let's face an uncomfortable truth: TMNT is nowhere near as popular as Superman or Batman, partly because they've never had that "mature" take, aside from the first movie which was only 3/4 that, really. But on the other hand, they ain't Bugs Bunny as far as their popularity as a cartoon, either. The franchise can't survive by just doing another cartoon every few years and pumping out more toys; to some degree, you have to let the material Grow Up with the audience, and if you want them to STAY fans, you have to keep giving them new stuff to like as they get older, stuff they can actually relate to.

Otherwise... hate to break it to ya, gang, but this franchise won't last. If it's not allowed to be More than just a kids' cartoon, it'll fade out, and eventually, when the Nick powers-that-be feel like they've squeezed their last dollar out of it, they'll stick it on a shelf next to Hey Dude and Doug and stick it in a nostalgia block at 3am, and otherwise you'll never see it again. That's not a worst-case scenario, that's a "It Will happen" scenario. TMNT isn't anywhere NEAR as popular as it could and should be, and as some of the fans think it is. It can and will die one day if it's not allowed to break out of that "Kids Show" box it's trapped in now.

Which is why I'm such a firm believer that WB should try to buy the rights from viacom when they're done with it. Personally, I think they know how to give the best of both worlds better than anyone else. I know they can do them justice. I mean, TMNT even is influenced by DC Writers & Artists what could be a more fitting place to end up. It will be given justice on so many levels but will it happen...who knows..

I can't help but wondering if franchise would have that nice middle ground if it had become part of the Marvel Universe?

They'd honestly have a better sandbox to play in at DC/WB. Marvel already has too many mutants, and actually, just Too Many Characters in general. This isn't even a matter of anyone saying "Well I prefer Marvel over DC" or whatever, that isn't the point, it's just a point of where they'd fit better and actually Stand Out more.

Both companies are super-crowded, but there's seriously about 10 Marvel characters for every DC character, and 80% of them are "mutants". Having the Turtles be in that mix would be a terrible idea. Also, under the DC/WB banner, they'd have a better chance of being published completely separate from the "main universe" anyways, since DC has a history of doing that with tons of books. Just because DC had them doesn't *necessarily* mean they'd use them in the main universe, although they probably would at some point.

It's a pipe dream either way, and I know more people tend to prefer Marvel but frankly, that arrangement wouldn't actually work as well as it may seem at first glance. If it HAD to be one of the two companies, DC/WB would objectively be the better fit.

But cartoons shouldn't be just for kids. That's an even bigger problem, I think. The "cartoons are for kids" mentality is stifling creativity and holding back our culture. It sickens me that people are so close-minded and/or ignorant that they have those preconceived notions about art.

You're right about that, but Nick is doing these particular cartoons now and forever so you can just forget anything greater than what we already have.

Dude, I just imagined TMNT as a Vertigo comic. Awesome.

Anyways, I instantly count Marvel out just due to the Hand Clan being there. Although I guess you could work the Foot in as a branch or even new rival to the Hand. That would be so full circle.

DC: Foot Clan rivalry with the League of Shadows. BOOM.

yes and no
 

the mentality is wrong but people who think that and aren't actually involved in creating more work within the franchise it's just whatever. Like look at the nick cartoon for example. It panders to the lowest common denominator. it is solely for kids and toddlers. Like other stuff for whatever reason there is some adult oriented jokes snuck in there just cause Hollywood is sick and likes to do that for some reason. The cartoons will be aimed more towards kids. It's all been that way besides 2k3 which was aimed more towards teens and really followed stayed true to the source content as best as it could within the perimeters that it was given. It's really just whatever because the people that think that aren't the ones putting out the content for us to watch or read. Besides the fellows running the nick series.

But the thing is that with DC. It's a world fill with demi gods that out saving the world and even though, the turtles would stand out more, they would have a hard time keeping up. The turtles being mostly stuck in one location, would hardly have any opportunity or any reason to really interact with DC universe.

With the marvel universe, most superheroes are street level and it easier to imagine how they will play off each other.

Hell New York is such a big place that Spiderman can be somewhere near Time Square since there is a lot of tourists which fits with his show off persona dealing with his band of super villains, Daredevil would somewhere with a high crime rate or just somewhere taking on kingpin with his secret identity as a lawyer and his alter ego. I think TMNT would fit in some location dealing with the urban legends but we, the audience are never sure if the urban legends are mutants because it's never really revealed.

I understand that Marvel have their brand on mutants but that's starting to change with making inhumans the new mutants with a total separate origin.

Yes and No.

No - IDW and Mirage fans are probably sick of seeing these words, but here they are..I liked the OT cartoon as a kid and fell in love with again as an adult. Didn't have much access to the more mature Turtles comic due to reading the Archie comics at a Wal-Mart. Didn't start hanging out and browsing at a comic book store until I reached my teens. Once again - zero exposure to the more mature TMNT comics.

Yes - OT was well, OT and it didn't go far from it being OT. 2012 Nick Turtles have their eps. that are pretty good. One of the things I seem to read on this forum is that they borrow more from OT, be it the atmosphere, mutants, whatever. 2k3 might have perhaps been seen closer to the graphic novels. Let me know if I got it wrong.

Some years later, I did receive Challenges and this is the only Mirage book that I currently own. And I have been seeing lots of killer comic issues showing up in this forum. Thanks for the info guys.

Maybe this might answer your question; it depends on how people treat and view the franchise.

Luckyday: Thing is, DC has a much better history of juggling "demi-god" characters like Superman and Green Lantern alongside "street" characters like Batman etc., and they've also been much better at giving books that didn't "fit" in the main line their own space, be it Vertigo, WildStorm, etc. Marvel sucks at that. Remember the "New Universe"? Don't bother, nobody does.

Literally the only upside to Marvel would be, if you work them into the main universe, you make the Daredevil connection canon. That's It. The very fact that their NYC has 729 different super-heroes already in it speaks for itself as to why that would be a terrible fit.

The only "argument" comes from a person's bias if they like Marvel better, but it's clearly Just Not A Good Fit. At least at DC/WB there'd be a decent chance that it could at least be run as its own separate book if they couldn't work it into the "proper" DCU. And if they were part of the main line, DC also isn't drowning in mutants. They'd be unique there. It just works better all the way around.

I get that they are a totally different type of "mutant" than the X-Men mutants but it's still a term that's completely over-saturated in the Marvel U.

This for kids mentality has most definitely held TMNT back. Is it a good thing? Most definitely not. I don't understand why we can't have the best of both worlds, something for adults and something for kids. I'm convinced that Viacom has no idea what they're doing with this property. I wish that some more competent company owned it. Maybe WB owning it wouldn't be such a bad idea. Can't be any worse than Viacom.

I guess when it comes down, you and I want TMNT to go in two completely different directions. You want to stand on it's own and I really want them to mix and interact with other characters.

To really see things from your perspective, I can imagine they can become too dependent on crossovers and some their own personal story lines and would become forgotten among the sea of marvel grand scale madness of civil war or what ever big story arc that they always get suck in. I wouldn't want the turtles become supporting characters or become "those four other guys".

Funny enough that's the problem with the Flash in DC but that whole another issue.

If Turtles ever really need someone to interact with in DC. I can see them in a crossover with Teen Titans or even Young Justice. It would be a needed teenage element that's been missing. Only thing is that you need to slightly change Leonardo because he's too similar to Robin but the same can be said with Mikey and Beast Boy.

My response? NO! The only version of the turtles I read, watch, or consume is the toned-down, superhero style tmnt. I can't stand the grim, gritty, beer drinking, and blood soaked turtles of mirage- the cycle of vengeance does nothing for me, it's not 'compelling' or 'interesting'. Personally, IDW is the perfect balance between the extremes, and my favorite show versions are 2k3 and Nick toons.

Both versions have a right to exist, and the fans of both versions have a right to enjoy their versions without criticism. The OT and all it has spawned is not some kind of blemish on the original comics, and there is no call for those who enjoy either version to rip up anything anyone else likes- I'm sorry, wither it's Mirage, OT, Archie Nick, 2k3, Next Mutation, the old movies or new, your version of TMNT is NOT somehow better than somebody else's favorite, and you have no right to rip their turtles apart!

Could it be maybe because the heroes are.... well.... talking turtles? For some reason I think the series wouldn't have the 'this is for kids' problem if it was these 4 ninja guys that for whatever reason were inspired by Turtles or wanted to do a backwards kinda thing with 'these guys being fast turtles' or whatever instead of actual mutated talking turtles. Maybe the rest of the world sees the Turtles as something silly like Ducktales or other action characters where the main characters are talking animals.

Honestly, Leo brought it up somewhere before, there are even topics about 'do others know you're a TMNT fan' or 'do your friends/family/whoever know you're a TMNT fan' and the like, and that's already the problem. Why must we hide it like it's something to be ashamed of? Why can I buy a Batman shirt and be cool but if I buy a TMNT shirt I'm silly and too childish for my age?

It's like Heath Ledger, "Say you love Batman while being a grown man and nobody bats an eye, but say you love the Ninja Turtles while being a grown man AND EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR MINDS!!!!'

I kinda get the idea that the turtles being.... turtles may be what's so hard for people taking it so seriously. I don't think Nolan would have even bothered picking up Batman if he was actually a talking cartoon bat and not a man with a bat motif. Even Guardians of the Galaxy, that have a talking raccoon and tree.... you still have three other humans (or humanoid) characters to relate to that helps you take the movie and team seriously rather than if the team was 5 talking raccoons or 5 talking trees.

Well that's kind of zoophobic in my opinion. :lol:

I think that can be solve if you make them look realistic and less cartoony looking.

Whoa whoa whoa, people have to tone it down with the Mirage comics being dark, gritty and blood baths. It's not like that. It's no different from any other comic out there. It's just that the comics have more realism that cartoons always censor and change around for the sake of the kiddies.

The Mirage Turtles actually USE their weapons for the reason they were actually intended, instead of Leo just cutting ropes or fire hydrants or whatever.... but that doesn't mean they're running around spilling the enemies' guts out. It's not gratitous and gory like some slasher film, it's just.... well Leo and Raph can actually cut people and if they're not careful the people can actually cut them back. Not this cartoon BS where Shredder swipes at someone and they fly back as if it was just a punch, or Leo being 'impaled' by Karai in the 'who the **** knows where' because there are no signs of injury or blood. Yeah, can't show blood in a kids cartoon. I get it. Then don't ****in have Karai impale Leo if you can't even show it properly.

The drinking is minimal. If anything Casey is more of the boozer. But it's real and while the turtles don't drink hardly ever, you can still see bars in the background and whatnot. I mean a cartoon can't even acknowledge that bars exist unless it's one of the more adult ones like the Simpsons and Family Guy.

The cycle of vengeance is a neccesity and it's why the Foot continue to even fight the Turtles. Honestly, the Foot have better things to do, and the turtles aren't superheroes looking for crimes to stop. So this cycle of vengeance is what keeps it going. And um... the Nick toon is very heavy on Shredder being blinded by his vengeance over Splinter and the Turtles doncha know.

As for grim and gritty.... I kinda think that goes more into the issues in where the Turtles realize they're only four of a kind, or the ones that deal with their crappy ass futures that awaits them. The other stuff like time traveling with Renet and such is just good clean wild wacky fun and stuff like Return to New York is just what action packed comics are all about.

But that's still the problem. You can make them as realistic as you want but at the end of the day, they're still walking talking turtles. And for most people, a movie or series about talking animals might be what turns them off or make them think this is only kiddy fare.

I mean you can make Mickey Mouse look as realistic as a um.... humanoid mouse can be *shudders* but that doesn't mean the audience at large won't still think this new thing will still be just for kids.

"It's for Kids" is code for "This is crap and we know it."

See, this post right here is proof that it has in fact held back the property AND the fandom, because people who only go for the "kid stuff" have this ridiculous idea that Mirage is, & only liked for, the "fact" that it's EXTREME TO THE MAX ADULT CONTENT! BEER! BLOOD! CURSING! when the reality of it's adult nature is that it stems from depressing, cerebral, heady stuff that kids would not understand or be stimulated by. Besides that, the series has plenty of heartwarming, light-hearted, goofy, sci-fi, etc content. A catch-all, genre-wise. You don't have to like it, but don't dismiss it when you have no idea what it's really about.

To say the OT is not a blemish on the original comics is not a matter of opinion. It IS a blemish. Is it enjoyable? Yes. Does it have it's own merits? Yes. Do I myself, as a Mirage "purist" like it? Yes. Do we owe a lot to it's existence? Absolutely. But has it done irreparable damage to the property in addition to the good stuff? You bet your ass. Why? Because they have been loud, vibrant, pizza eating dude-bros for 25 years, & people don't like change. They have known this, & only this, for the duration of their pop-culture sponging lives, & do not wish to humor anything else, & when the topic comes up in conversation, they say they're sick of everything getting a "dark reboot" despite the fact that such a version would be remaining true to their origins...

& I don't see where this presumed elitism is coming from, nobody is using this thread as means to say one version or another is the be-all end-all of turtles. God, your post is frustrating. & the most ironic part is that you say your favorite show is the 4kids series, & yet it's based on Mirage, the version that does nothing for you. Like, 70% of the stories are adaptations. Maybe you just don't like reading.

Hehe, the irony. I like how they think a more serious TMNT would be a dark reboot, when the TMNT they know is already a Flanders reboot.

It also has this fantastical journey angle in some parts of the mirage and completely in Archie. I think the element that hasn't been done yet in my opinion is a story of coming of age with the turtles. I really to see a story that emphasis on them growing up from boys to young adults in a big scary world with a theme of them trying to find their place and makes it so fitting that they be would only ones of their kind, because how would you try fit in when there is no one else like you?

When did "dark and gritty" become code for Grown Up?
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some realistic turtle stuff, but when I say that what I mean is for punches to have weight to them. I want consequences to the action and drama. It's possible to do that sort of stuff without characters bleeding out of their eyes. The world just needs to be logically consistent.

Exactly what I'm talking about. A show can be smart without being violent or bloody. Heck it's violence like most young adult shows, can be implied or totally off screen.

In Mirage TMNT written by Jim Lawson, Donatello yells, "Yabba Dabba Doo!" as a battle cry in one Tales issue.

Mirage was often silly itself.

True but one can only do it so much until it becomes a matter of 'well, why give this guy swords then if he can't ****in do anything with them'. Then it just starts looking silly.

Face it- what we NEED is a TMNT anime, and I DON'T mean like the OV one from back in the day. I want a more realistic, adult anime version, like ninja Scroll or GItS or something like that. Maybe with a feel like Spirited Away if you MUST give it a bit more kid-friendly approach, but I'd LOVE to see a TMNT along the lines of FMA or Akira! (Either way could be as dark and grown-up as we want, and actually, FMA-style would strike the perfect balance. That one could go t dark and depressing, or light-hearted, depending on the episode and story arc.)

But there are creative ways of doing that without ever showing blood. The movie "Psycho" was able do it with out showing him stabbing the victim. I think if means having some scenes in a dark setting with little light, which brings a level of intensity or maybe you can make it like the Hunger Games in which making some of the scenes very fast pace. There are ways let Leonardo use his swords. There always has been since the dawn of time.

And the fact that blood doesn't spur out like a sprinkler in real life would lend it well if you shot in certain angles.

Or maybe just give him Iaito and a real sharp sword and he only the lethal one when he's serious.