Ways to improve the Red Sky seasons?
 

As we all know, the Red Sky seasons were a way to spark some interest in the FW series again. There were some changes like the sky suddenly turning red and the show having more action and a more serious tone. Also, April and the Turtles suffered a bit of character design change, especially April. And oddly enough, her design was slightly changed again in season 9. We also see some new characters and villains introduced. The ones in season 8 didn't show up or get mentioned ever again. Titanus and the H.A.V.O.C. mutants actually got an arc tho. 3 eps in an 8 episode only season? Not bad at all.

But the real shock was in season 9. At the time, I thought "Turtle Trek" had been the last episode. But then, turns out there were more episodes. When I first saw the title "The Unknown Ninja" I was like "WOAH!". It did look promising... but it simply turned out to be Carter. And then, we get a new villain, Dregg. I expected the Turtles to get rid of him in either that episode or in the following one. I thought it was just gonna be a mini-arc, but turns out he was there to definitely replace Shredder and Krang. It didn't feel much like the Ninja Turtles anymore. Also, the cast had been thinned out. No more Shredder, Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady, Irma, Vernon or Burne. Not even appearances from secondary villains such as Leatherhead and Baxter Stockman. Only the Rat King got one episode, but then again, the writers seemed to like him a lot. The changes were too sudden and I can see why many fans were turned off by them. Dregg and Carter debuted by the time this show was on life support, and they're barely remembered in TMNT history these days, especially Carter. So this main villains change was kinda disappointing to me. The show had not changed its formula much after all.

Season 10 was better than 9, and not just animation wise. Also, it was great to see Dregg flip out and become madder and madder. That 3-part arc with Shredder and Krang returning was nice as well. Especially how they seemed to be on the same page. It's like that time away from battling the Turtles helped them become friends or something.

One particularly weird aspect of these 3 final seasons is the fact that they had 8 episodes each. It's fine for the first season of a show to have a short number pf episodes(the pilot season only had 5, per example) but why did did the last 3 seasons of the FW series have 8 eps each? Season 8 had a finale, but season 9 and 10 might as well have been the same season.

Now, what could have been improved? Well, first of all, replacing the main villains ended up not helping the show much ratings wise. And neither did turning the sky red to give a Batman TAS vibe to the show. It felt like a different series and didn't have a distinctive style like its previous seasons had. But to be fair, being a kids cartoon, you gotta have a main villain. The thing is, Dregg was painfully generic and forgettable compared to Shredder and Krang who are iconic villains. And whilst Shredder is in every TMNT incarnation, the same cannot be said for Krang, and yet people will always remember him. Another problem was Carter being another forgettable character. A Marty Stu at best. When you think of most of this show characters, you can tell what's unique and distinctive about them, but Carter was generic. Not a bad character but just kinda generic and unmemorable. And who told the Turtles they needed a sidekick? Wasn't April good enough? Or couldn't Casey give a hand in an episode or two. Yes, I know Carter was a computer and science genius... but so was Donatello. Oh, and scratch those awful mutations. They were pointless and detrimental to the Turtles. I still cant' believe they wasted 2 episodes on the Turtles trying to fix Leonardo's mutation.

I think a new main villain could have been written better, and some older characters should have made an appearance or two in seasons 9 and 10. Also, more villains like in season 8 would have been good for the sake of variety. And maybe focusing more on the ninja aspect of the Turtles could have been interesting as well. Or hell, maybe even try to adapt something from the source material. It'd have been toned down for kids, obviously, but good writing could have made those adaptations decent.

Don't get me wrong, I still like the final two seasons but I've always thought that "Turtle Trek" should have been the final episode of the series. By the time "Divide and Conquer" was out, we knew that Shredder and Krang were still alive in Dimension X and could always come back later. While in "Turtle trek" we could speculate that the plant had destroyed the Technodrome and killed both while it was at it.

Thoughts?

Other than not have all the old villains fade away, there really wasn't much else they could have done. The TMNT fad was pretty much over by then and the show was only getting 8 episodes a season.

It seems like Fred Wolf would have ended the show earlier but wanted it to hit an iconic 10 seasons so they kept it going.

I guess they simply wanted to milk the cashcow until the last drop.

Also, none of the Red Sky characters got any action figures, did they? And wasn't the last toyline released in 1995, one season before the show was over? As far as I know, many people who grew up watching the series still aren't aware of the last 3 seasons. I guess they weren't well promoted and/or weren't as widely available as the previous 7 were.

I was very interested when I read on the forums that there plans for the FW series finale to be an animated film. I wonder how that would have turned out.

It's too bad they never decided to go into actual fighting. They wanted to compete with batman and such and yet they continued to use dumbed down fighting and silly monsters. Maybe if they upped the animation budget it could have had 2k3 style fighting with actual martial arts and such.

Yeah, they really went full sci-fi in the last couple of seasons, didn't they? Which is odd since the turtles used their weapons quite often in the 7th season, the last one before Red Sky. Explosions and laser guns are cool and all, but let's not forget that the title has the word "ninja" in it. And speaking of that... Splinter accepting to train Carter out of the blue was kinda forced. And how did he know about Hamato Yoshi and his relation to the Turtles, anyway?

hmm
 

that's simple. More Kronos. Had such an interesting back story. Still want to know how he knew splinter and where they lived. There's just so much more to tell with him. Still probably one of my top 10 episodes of the series.

It was a fun episode indeed. As for him knowing the location, he probably stalked the turtles for awhile. Which brings another question: How didn't he know about their mutations and Carter, then?

And why didn't splinter bebop and rocksteady double-mutate? And Carter's mutation made no sense at all. He wasn't a mutant anything, he basically turned into a super hero.

Well, bebop and Rocksteady weren't in season 9, their last episode being "Turtle Trek", season's 8 finale. So whether they got affected or not, it doesn't really matter. Splinter not getting affected was weird, though. But since the mutations were so pointless, I'm glad Splinter got away with it. As for Carter, he accidentally spilled mutagen on his hand as he as leaving the Lair in a rush to help out the Turtles. But hey, at least his mutation saved the Turtles a few times.

I know that. I was referring to whatever the hell that thing was that he mutated into. He wasn't any kind of mutant animal or anything he turns into some kabuki powerhouse version of himself. Just made no sense.

Oh you meant it in that way. In that case you're right. Then again, if he had mutated into an animal he'd probably have mutated into... a turtle. :o

They said the mutagen that mutated the Turtles was unstable, Bebop and Rocksteady were mutated by a completely different batch of mutagen by Shredder later.

So the only question is why Splinter didn't mutate too, I think this is actually brought up in the first ep of Season 9 but they don't bring it up again

I actually think they said he might mutate too but then they never brought it up again.

Yep. Donatello told Splinter more or less this: "Your mutation might get unstable too, master."

I think Splinter mutating into that werewolf design Peter Laird made once would have been cool for a single episode.

Also... why didn't H.A.V.O.C. recruit mutants like Mondo Gecko, Leatherhead or hell, even bebop and Rocksteady? I know that Titanus had a mutant making machine, but I don't recall it being explicitly mentioned that he created every mutant that was a member of H.A.V.O.C.

One thing I liked about Red Sky was the turtles being outcasts again and feeling wary of mankind as a whole, especially Raph and Don. That's how I like things to be. Between seasons 4 and 6 their presence got ridiculously accepted to the point of the Turtles having normal jobs in that episode were Splinter pretends to leave them. Great episode, though.

What do you mean by improving the Red Sky season? Personally for us or in order for it to have been successful?

Because if its the former there really is not much they could've done which is why they turned out the way they did. I mean the fad peaked in S4 and while still strong and very big it meant it was only coming down from there and MM Power Rangers came out not long after which only speeded up the process. Cartoons had also changed a lot since the late 80s and we were seeing more mature shows which the turtles were competing on. So the show had already run its course by 1994 and the slightly darker take of S7 is probably the result of that. So while a shadow of their former self the show still had a name and a fanbase so that's the only reason it ran for those last three seasons. They weren't afraid to make changes anymore since they correctly assumed that doing more of the same wouldn't do any favors to the franchise but a new take might work which is why they revamped the show in the "red sky" seasons. Having old villains wasn't going to help bring back anyone but entirely new villains might so that's what they tried, even if it didn't work it was a better strategy than the already sinking ship one last chance and of course it didn't work but the turtles name was able to carry it for those 3 seasons but not much after that.

Yeah we would've all preferred to have seen the villains we knew and loved but this was a chance for them to do something different and maybe hit gold and the franchise still had long legs after all by 1996 Power Rangers while still popular hadn't been the iconic show that they had once been. Even if it had tried to continue it would've been quickly murdered after all this when Playstation and N64 were hitting it big, Nickelodeon was at its highest influence they were just different times not to mention only 2 years before Pokemon hit.

As far as the actual seasons they needed better writing many times the stories were just boring, not enough comedy but not enough drama, it was generic and there were many other shows that were doing a better job telling similar stories.

Both but mostly in a personal way. After all, as you've mentioned, there really wasn't much that they could have done to grab new viewers. The show was on life support and it was a mater of time before the network pulled the plug.

I know the Turtles were huge in their prime, but it's amazing how a western animated series lasted almost 200 episodes and was the longest running of all time when it ended until The Simpsons surpassed it two years later. Wouldn't be surprised if South Park had surpassed the FW series since then either.

I kinda liked those seasons, but a lot of it definitely felt like they took one step forward, and then a bunch of steps sideways. A lot of the better ideas weren't given the attention they deserved, and stuff like Carter was crammed in despite nobody really asking for it.

I thought the tone was a welcome change-up, though. They had completely exhausted the "goofy" setting and cartoons like that weren't what was selling by 1994 anyways. I can see why some fans aren't in love with what was a pretty jarring and abrupt shift in tone, but it was literally something they needed to do if they wanted to get those last couple seasons in. The most popular cartoons at that point were almost all "straight" action/adventure cartoons. It felt like the right move, but a little bit too late.

I think it would have been better if they hadn't completely shifted focus to a bunch of new characters right at the end, and rather stayed consistent by using mostly familiar villains slightly updated to fit the more serious vibe. The entire series was a self-reverential nostalgia act by that point, anyways, it couldn't hurt to do the same thing but "played straight" for once. I just think they asked the audience to accept too much change too soon, with the new art style, new music, the Turtles as outcasts again, secondary mutations, new supporting cast, all new villains, completely different sense of action versus humor. It was like you went away for the summer and when you watched the show again, it felt like you missed three or four seasons instead of actually picking up from where it left off.

The designs for the Turtles and April in Seasons 8 and 10 were good. Season 9 had a different animation studio so they moved more cartoony or so in that season.

Yea, in 1993, the show was still an 80s show to the core. I guess that's what you mean with the nostalgia bit. Must have felt like a timewarp to the 80s by some people who had stopped watching years before. And at the time, the 80s were remembered as a cheesy silly era and not fondly remembered like they are these days... although these days people mostly remember the 80s that never really existed. Or just the good parts. Must have been a fun decade, though.

The show obviously didn't fit the mentality of the 90s where people wanted entertainment to be more real and less fantasized. They wanted grunge rock, reality shows and gangsta rap. Not Ninja Turtles and Hulk Hogan anymore.

Batman: TAS starting in 1992 and then the huge Power Ranger fad at the same time was obviously the one-two punch which killed the last of TMNT's popularity at the time.

If by some miracle TMNT survived 1996...it would have been destroyed by 1998 when Pokemon burst onto the scene.

The TMNT popularity peak must have been in 1990, no? First live-action film and the 1990 season with about 50 episodes. Secret of the Ooze was quite a hit as well, so I'm guessing that 1990-1991 was when TMNT was at its peak. I'm sure it was already pretty big by 1989 since the NES game sold about 4M units worldwide(well maybe not all in the same year, but still...) with only the 3 SMB and the 2 Zelda games outselling it.

I'll just repost this position of mine:

The second mutations and Carter I didn't mind, and I actually enjoyed the second mutations somewhat since it gave a little more to their adventures on top of defeating the villain with each episode.

I think if Dregg had some backstory to him and wasn't so apparently seen as an imitation to Power Rangers' Zedd, he could have had a more favorable reception. At least the series developed his character into losing his sanity in season 10, and these red sky seasons developed a stronger form of continuity that we hadn't seen since the first and second seasons.

I think it was the Turtles' blood (or specifically Donatello's, which was strangely green :-?), or some bodily fluid (that still had mutating properties? :-?), since Donatello used a microscope to look at his cells mutating. So it's storywriting "permissible" that Carter spilled the green liquid from the flask onto himself and mutated into having machine-abilities (after touching his motorcycle) since it wasn't the actual Krang mutagen itself.

If it was the actual Krang mutagen itself, Carter would have mutated with another living organism then. But whatever... :P

Exactly, Refractive Reflections. The show needed a change, but it should have been gradual and not abrupt. The small number of episodes per season didn't leave them any other choice, though. Maybe they should have began slowly changing things from season 7 or even 6?

You sure it wasn't? I vaguely recall Donatello referring to it as "the leftovers of the mutagen that had mutated us" or something like that. And it was in the first episode of season 9 iirc. It's been some years since I've watched it, but I'm 99% sure he said something like that.

...Man, hard to believe how I still remember plenty of lines from the OT. And I'm not only talking about Raphael's or Krang's funny one-liners. But ordinary dialogue as well. Hell, I still remember every line from "Turtle Tracks" and "Enter: The Shredder".

What was the dominating thing on TV after MMPower Rangers and before Pokemon? I only remember Nickelodeon being very big since it was all I watched, Rugrats and the other Nicktoons dominated my TV. Outside of shows I do remember other fads. I know in other countries like Latin America and Europe Dragon Ball Z was a huge fad during that era but that didn't come to the US until Pokemon. Outside of TV I definitely remember tons of fads at that time from console games to Tamagotchi's which dominated conversations at school.

But yeah while so many changes might've alienated the diminishing fans showing them more of the same would've had a similar outcome in viewership. Sometimes people like to blame specific things on the demise of shows or other properties but those things are usually done to save the show from dying. So yeah many "jumping the shark" moments are actually attempts at last gasps for breath at a dying show and sometimes it works like with Scrappy-Doo and Scooby which you can say what you want about him but he kept the Scooby franchise alive for many years.

Okay :P, I saw the episode "The Unknown Ninja" and the writers were able to get away with it by saying "studying the mutagen that originally caused us to mutate" and that the "mutagen was becoming more unstable". (aka: anything can happen now :lol:). So because of the mutagen's instability, that's how Carter was able to have those machine-like powers, rather than mutating with another living organism. Clever, but it worked within the laws of the mutagen they created. :lol:

DBZ was HUGE here when I was in elementary/primary school(1996 to 2000). But what's weird is how it was popular with both people born between 1990 and 1993 and also people born in the early/mid 80s. It appealed to both kids and teenagers/young adults. I'm one of the very few people born in my country between 1980 and 1993 who DIDN'T LIKE DBZ. I've only met about 3 other people who were never fans either... and one of them is my brother.

Man, Tamagotchi! I had like 5 of those, but they all died so quickly, especially if you dropped them on the damn ground. Also, fun fact: the first time a big soccer club here signed a Korean player people nicknamed him, guess what, "Tamagotchi". Kinda messed up, but yet funny.

Yeah DBZ was one of those fads that arrived late to the US since it was huge everywhere else in the world. It was the same with Saint Seiya which was also a huge fad in Europe and Latin America before Power Rangers and didn't get to the US until the early 2000's which it didn't get any attention since it was an old 80s anime and the localization/censorship ruined the show. Kind of a shame the US missed out on that as well.

Saint Seiya must have been in the early 90s then. I was too young to possibly remember it. But as an anime fan that likes watching anime from every decade, I've never cared enough to check it out.

The two biggest phenomenons when I was in elementary were DBZ and Pokémon BY FAR. Nothing else came close. Yes, kids would watch the occasional obscure cartoon or the occasional Batman or Spider-Man episode, but weren't crazy about them as they were for Pokémon and DBZ. That's when the anime craze really started here. Before that, anime was mostly popular in France and Italy, which have been translating manga since the 80s. Probably the two biggest markets in Europe for anime/manga.

Btw, was Yu-Gi-Oh ever popular there? I remember some kids playing the card game back in 6th grade but it died pretty quickly. That and Beyblade toys.

I highly recommend Saint Seiya its one of the best action anime if you can put up with 80s anime animation and the music is some of the best, if you like DBZ then this is better in every way except humor. Yu-Gi-Oh rode the Pokemon fad wave and continued once the Pokemon fad went away but it was never as big as Pokemon since it only appealed to boys unlike Pokemon that also appealed to girls and even adults, not to mention it was somewhat similar.

Well I never liked DBZ, so I doubt I'd enjoy Saint Seiya. Oddly enough, I like One Piece, which is often labeled as the modern DBZ.

A classic shounen I'd like to check out someday is Hokuto no Ken. It was like the first big shounen. It's probably quite outdated, though.

Well, I first saw season 8 in 1995 and the cartoon was re-run after that ("Turtle Trek" wasn't shown at the time and a repeat of "Enter Krakus" was aired instead for some reason). Seasons nine and ten finally aired in Ireland in 1998. Nine was placed between seven and eight, oddly enough, at that time. I think the red sky seasons were okay, but I prefer the earlier seasons.

Red sky took itself too seriously at times, particularly in 9. 8 was the best red sky season with a good mix of action and comedy. 9 was the worst. Dregg turning the people against the Turtles got boring after a few episodes. 10 was a big improvement, though there were some things left unresolved like Dregg permanently altering Leonardo's structure. Kronos was an interesting character alright. He could've been used again. I thought Carter wasn't that bad (at least he got some character development in the episode "The Showdown".

I liked that Shredder was portrayed as a serious threat for the first time in years, though he was still easily defeated by the Turtles. I also liked that he was shown to care about Krang and able to stand up to Dregg. I liked that April had a more proactive role in episodes like "Cry HAVOC" and "A Turtle in Time". One of Splinter's best quotes is in "Wrath of the Wrath King", which I decided to use as my signature quote.

You're right, Wesley. Even after fixing him up, Dregg said that his genes were changed forever, making us think that not everything was good yet. That being said, I had no interest in watching their mutations getting unstable. I disliked that angle.

I liked how Dregg was ruthless to the point of killing Hi-Tech and the other aliens in the final episode of the series. He also tried to kill Carter once.

Kind of a shame that the last episode of the series pitted the Turtles against Dregg and not against Shredder and Krang as most would have expected. If you had told anyone in season 3 that Dregg would eventually replace Shredder, people would have laughed at you.

Also, despite Dregg being ruthless, Shredder's "I never bluff!" was by far the most shocking moment of the series.

Not many have watched the Red Sky seasons to this day afaik. So I guess most fans didn't get to know how the OT ended. They probably assumed it just got cancelled or that Shredder and Krang were finally beaten in an anti-climatic way.

I agree that Shredder's "I never bluff!" was the most shocking moment. I also agree that most fans probably didn't know how the OT ended (they just remember the earlier seasons). I was glad that the secondary mutations were written out early on in season ten.

Personally, I loved the "red sky" seasons and wish that the whole series had been in that style. When the original cartoon was in its early seasons (1987-1989), I didn't initially find it the least bit entertaining. But when the first movie came out in 1990, I absolutely loved it. That movie was what made me a fan of the TMNT, and that's why I began to watch the cartoon. However, from 1992-1995, my interests had changed to video games and sports as kids my age were getting older and didn't find action cartoons to be our passion any longer.

Then in 1996, I rediscovered the TMNT cartoon and what it had become. I couldn't have been more impressed with the show's new style. It was exactly what I wished that the cartoon had been 5-6 year earlier when I was 9-10 years old. I think the red sky seasons had better animation and very entertaining story arcs. I only wish that the red sky characters (Dregg, Hi-Tech, Mung, Carter, etc.) had getten toy releases.

Does a cartoon suddenly changing tone happen often like the OT did? I mean, change of tone or not, it was hard for people to suddenly start taking the TMNT seriously. Especially when they kept cracking jokes during Red Sky and pretending to act badass.

The 4kids show had a great balance of humor, action and drama.

I loved the red sky seasons as well when I was growing up because I liked that those seasons were darker and edgier than the goofier ones. I actually preferred red sky when I was a teenager, though a lot of its flaws are apparent when watching it as an adult. I now like both the earlier seasons and red sky. I thought Dregg was crazy in season ten, as he was willing to turn the Earth into another sun, sacrificing himself in the process as well. He would've killed Shredder and Krang in "Turtles to the Second Power" if the Turtles hadn't showed up just in time. I agree that there were some great story arcs.

Well, the 4kids show did change its tone suddenly after season five. Anyway, I agree that it was hard to take red sky seriously. However, I first watched season eight when I was 8 and the first episode blew me away. I really thought red sky was badass at the time, but watching it as an adult, it was a fake darkness. The 2003 series was much better, but it was good for its time, in my opinion. I actually don't mind that the characters kept saying funny one-liners in red sky because I think it showed that that they weren't afraid no matter what dangerous situation they were in.

I found Red Sky edgy as a kid too, and I thought it looked promising. It made me believe that the Turtles would kill Shredder in the last episode... boy I was so naïve :lol:

I agree that red sky looked promising. I think "Get Shredder" was a great opening episode, but the other episodes weren't as good. It had potential. The story arcs and characters could've been better written. The Turtles did seem really determined to capture Shredder in most of season eight, though they appeared to change their minds in "Turtle Trek".