So ... Karai
 

Evidently (I'm not totally caught up on the series), the latest IDW issue features Splinter fighting to convince Karai there may be hope for her yet.

Where do you guys fall on this?

I'm really not digging it. While IDW's hero characters have left me a bit cold, one of the best things the series has done is to design a cast of truly despicable villains, including all of the upper members of the Foot hierarchy (actually a bit opposite of where Mirage fell on the hero-villain development spectrum). This Karai, while certainly different from previous versions, is defined perfectly well in her micro-series issue, and most of her appearances throughout the book: Whereas previous Karais have been products of their upbringing, and mostly concerned with the pragmatic continuation of the Foot, this one is a petty murderer, responsible for restarting the ninja assassin element of the Foot for power and pride, and one of the chief instigators of the whole conflict, if somewhat less so than Kitsune and Shredder.

Like, people have died because she was bored.

So, what do you see happening with her? Do you buy Splinter's words at all? I certainly think her subservient role under Shredder has tempered her somewhat (though she's eager to please), and while she rebuilt the Foot in Japan, I'm not sure I see her being ready to step immediately in as a New York crimeboss in a post-Shredder void, so ... what happens with her? I can see a pragmatic tolerance of the Turtles, and I know some are waiting for her to step into a traditional role as their on-again/off-again ally, but I think, however the post-Shredder arcs shape out, she's way too awful to ever fill the kind of role Mirage's had (or that she's seeing elsewhere, a la the Nick cartoon). That Karai was a pragmatist; this one's a deviant.

Which, mind you, I'm fine with -- this version of Karai is one of the highlights of the book to me. But wherever she ends up, she's been an out and out villain so far, so I'm curious to hear people's takes.

I'd rather her not be the morally ambiguous eventual friend she's tended to be. IDW's Karai has been my favorite to date, in design, concept (though I'd rather her not always have to be Shredder's relative/underling), attitude, etc, & that's because of the things you've described above. She's a mean piece of work. I don't think it'd be fit if she suddenly decided to have a conscience courtesy Splinter & the turtles. Boo. I'd rather see her become even more twisted after her grandfather's defeat, holding the grudge she knows nothing about out of sheer hatred, driving herself mad. Maybe she eventually realizes it was all for nothing, but it's too late. Like there's an epiphany just before or after a mortal blow. Something bittersweet towards the end. & with all the mutant madness & inevitable monster/alien stuff yet to come, it'd be cool if the ninja/Japanese element remained in some capacity. Nick has kinda brushed the ninja material under the rug (for now, at least) in favor of more OT kinda stuff, & I'd rather IDW not do the same (even though in some ways they kinda have).

I really like her too, and that dialogue from Splinter blindsided me as well. I'll wait for next week before I read too much into it.

I absolutely loved her arc from #9 to #28, but unfortunately she's done next to nothing ever since the end of City Fall. I fear that the creative team is unsure about what to do with the character now other than menacingly stand next to Shredder, so they could just be going with the standard Karai story.

But yeah, #44 will give us more to go on.

I'm a little behind the recent IDW issues, but wasn't there some indication she planned on overthrowing Shredder and taking control of the Foot Clan from him? I think she's been shown to grow more and more agitated with her "Grandfather" and is biding her time to make her move.

She might still be an enemy to the Turtles even if she betrays Shredder.

I forgot all about that. Hmm. Well, so long as she's still a terrible person, that's fine. I don't wanna see her getting chummy with the turtles. :tlol: If she were to start her own faction of The Foot, or a new clan, that could be tight too.

I trust the IDW team has something good in store for her, story-wise. I've been waiting for something to come of her discontent with the way Shredder's been handling things. I had thought she may have backed off from her supposed plans, since Shredder made her chunin after City Fall, but if Shredder is taken out it looks like either way she will assume control of the Foot

I thought she'd mostly stepped back from that since Shredder made her his chunin as she originally expected him to, though those frustrations could always resurface. Shredder's apparently immortal and I don't think it's her intent to play second fiddle forever.

Anyway, she had control over the Foot before reviving Shredder, but now that they're is controlling all of New York's organized crime, I'm not sure she'd be as prepared to. There's going to be a lot of (violent) pressure coming in if the organization stumbles.

Which I guess is about the one way I could see a City at War-style team-up with the Turtles, but ... eh, what good would four extra bodies be; it's not the small-scale assassination mission the Mirage series saw. And it certainly couldn't see any developments coming from nearly as level-headed or benevolent a place.

There are also possible conflicts with Kitsune in the future, especially if Shredder bites it in service of some sort of plan she has, but, again, I don't think I could buy that causing Karai turn over any new leaves.

Yes Karai's micro solidified that her loyalty really is to the Foot Clan and its prosperity. Her father nearly suffocated it and she put an end to that, and I'm sure that she would now do the same with Saki if his feud with the turtles conflicted with the survival of the clan. I think Splinter is picking up on this since he was once in a pretty similar situation when he served under Saki and with his newfound understanding that his personal vendetta was blinding his judgement over his family, considers that maybe the same is true of the Shredder.

Been hoping for Karai to murder Shredder herself ever since she was obviously not enjoying being "demoted".

That moment with Splinter did seem a bit... out of left field, but it also seemed right out of the Leo/Karai storyline in the 2003 series. Dunno if that's a great fit yet. I'm happy to see characters evolve, but I like it being natural and not rushed.

I like Karai in the IDW comic. I mean, I always like Karai. But I'm still kind of waiting for her "moment". I feel like they've been building her up fairly well, especially considering how many characters are in the mix, and I'm hoping she'll get her due. I'd be happy with something morally ambiguous, but it's hard for me to see her as an out-and-out villain (based largely on a bias for previous versions, I'll admit) and I hate seeing her as a subordinate.

I think "pragmatic tolerance of the Turtles" makes sense for her once/if the Shredder's out of the picture. IMO, the Shredder should have a definitive end and leave a dangerous legacy. I'd be happy seeing Karai seize power and being the "lesser of two evils" in Splinter's eyes, but a dangerous/unpredictable element nonetheless. I want to see her in control, but not solely motivated by the Shredder or her relationship to him - remaking the Foot in her own image. Surpassing him.

IDW Karai really is the least defined villain of the whole series, and has so far pretty much just been riding the coattails of her perception and image from the 2003 cartoon.

Still, I have every expectation that once Oroku Saki is killed, Karai will go full-on Pimiko and try to destroy the Turtles. Maybe she'll even grow a rad 90's weaponized ponytail! :tlol:

A lot of City Fall was about Shredder building a better family and he accomplished this. When he first faced Splinter his main force was Karai & Alopex, than later Hun. On the surface it looks like he's really recruiting Leo and betting on him to follow him but that's all a farce the real story is all of his underlings are being tested. Alopex fails to let go of her past and loses her loyalty to the foot. Hun is given strength but also must serve a man who severely wounded his son, a task he accepted. Karai had her authority taken away from her yet still acted in the best interest of the clan by mutating Bebop & Rocksteady as a double secret force for their disposal.

In short, Karai didn't run/flip on the Foot like Alopex, she didn't accept her place like Hun, she did what she had to do despite her demotion. She passed her test and now serves at the top of the Shredders table. She handles New York when he lead both his attacks on Krang. I wouldn't say she's unhappy with Shredder or her current standing in the Foot.

I don't think that's true at all. I think her micro established quite a different (and more selfish and ruthless) character. She revived a clan of ninja assassins because she was bored and prideful. She's callous as all hell about life and death as long as they help serve her sense of self-importance. But through all of this, she's still a bit young and petulant and childish (which just makes these elements worse).

I don't like the subordinate role for her generally, but I dig it for this specific version.

As for the "it's hard for me to see her as an out-and-out villain," I guess that's partly why I made this thread, since that seems to be the case, at least with this latest wrinkle, for the creative team too. But I can only assume that's equally based on ... what? inertia toward previous versions? ... because the character they've set up so far has been as delightfully morally unambiguous as possible.

I can't really see too many scenarios that would 'ruin' Karai for me. I'm really digging her now. It's pretty obvious she's got something up her sleeve in the near future.

Oh, you're definitely right. I own my bias there. :tlol:

Ultimately I like what I've read so far and I'm gonna be open to wherever they go next, so long as it feels natural/earned.

She'll take over the foot in shredders absence. It was very vaguely foreshadowed after city fall when shredder confronted her about bebop and rocksteady. Pragmatically tolerating the turtles? Maybe. But I think she'll just be less antagonistic as shredder because 1) she lacks the power(assuming the foot splits of city at war style) and 2)she doesn't have the personal vendetta that shredder has.

Hopefully Karai's future character development will make sense to most readers. The series has been pretty well written so far, I seriously anyone will make Karai a good guy and make it feel like it comes out of the blue.

All of that could just be her method of getting close enough / making him feel she isn't a threat to him though. Or perhaps she's just waiting for the turtles to do it for her. Perhaps she is indeed being obedient for the sake of the clan, but I doubt she'll be very broken up about it when he dies.

[QUOTE=ToTheNines;1431004] I fear that the creative team is unsure about what to do with the character now other than menacingly stand next to Shredder, so they could just be going with the standard Karai story.

QUOTE]

Well, I've got it on good authority that the creative team discusses Karai and her future quite often. You might say I've got someone on the inside feeding me this info...

:twink:

Talk soon...

Tom W.

As long as IDW doesn't mutate Karai into a serpent snake for a while like Nick did in the cartoon, I'm fine with what they do with her. :lol:

Haha, good hear. I know you guys are (masterfully) juggling a large cast. I guess it makes sense that she would kinda take a back seat to some other characters after her first arc came to an end since she's obviously gonna play a huge part in what may well be a Shredderless Foot Clan.

So #44 was awesome, but I gotta say I absolutely hated Splinter and Karai's conversation. At face value, at least.

First of all, what the fudge is Splinter talking about with restoring the Foot to being an honorable clan? I know it was socially acceptable for them to be a band of warriors in feudal Japan, but in modern times, what is the Foot gonna put their skill set towards? They all join the NYPD?

Also, his remark about seeing something more in Karai's eyes was kind of outta nowhere.

Granted, Karai has considered betraying Shredder before, but not because she wished he was more honorable. She even casually told Toshiro that she would take him out, but wasn't skilled enough, simply because she was being marginalized.

So I would hope she was merely manipulating Splinter, trying to gain his trust, and we all haven't forgotten how many times she has killed in cold blood and willingly participated in kidnapping, brainwashing, deceit and bribery.

Yo, word.

I'd really like the series to not lose track of the fact that Karai turned a minor criminal operation into a band of ninja assassins (leading to plenty of horrible sh*t), because, basically, she was bored. There was very little high-minded in the origin of the modern-day Foot Clan.

I sail seas on the same boat, y'all.

The hesitation that Karai displayed after hearing out Splinter really spoke to me. There really is a difference between the Foot as a whole and the Foot under the Shredder's rule. Focusing so much on the Turtles and their defeat drains resources and leads to situations like the Donatello betrayal where they suffered major losses on Burnow.

The foot flourished after City Fall, not only did they have the city under control but because the TMNT weren't in the picture their focus was on maintaining the empire and creating new forces like Koya & Bludgeon.

So I could see why Karai might want to consider all options when dealing with the future of her clan.

The Karai scene seemed to have more to do with Splinter than Karai, in my opinion. Splinter just went through this whole "blind anger against Shredder" arc, so I can see how he might want to end the circle of violence that he's become at the center of (along with Shredder).

The interesting part to me is where Splinter will go when he reacts to Donnie's death/incapacitation.

Yeah but Karai was still all "I... I... *smoke bomb*".

So I finally got my sig-ot to read thru the entire IDW run of TMNT (up thru New Mutant Order) and re-read it myself at the same time.

It just occurred to me, I think the editorial staff is about to do the same with Karai that they previously did with Alopex. Which is to say, Alopex was an unrepentant villain (who also happened to be drawn in a very intimidating and non-cute/non-fluffy style) up until it came time for her to switch loyalties. We get a single one-shot that explains why she suddenly goes against the Foot and the Shredder, and that was it. No looking back, no more terrifying werewolf art. Just all Campbell-style cute and fluffy.

So honestly, I'm expecting Karai's change of loyalty to be about as abrupt and sudden, with not so much foreshadowing. Or the way Arnold Jones became Hun. And I'm trying not to complain too much, because this is my favorite incarnation of TMNT ever and I have a suspicion about what will eventually happen with Alopex.

I guess what I'm saying is that IDW likes to pull these surprise character developments, but I'm skeptical because I don't want Karai to turn good just because she has always been good in prior incarnations. I want IDW to do with Karai what they want to do because they want to do it... and I trust IDW to do just that.

End random stream-of-consciousness muttering. :twink:

I feel like they won't do that because of the fact that they did something similar to Alopex.

It seemed like Alopex was under some sort of trance and well, or maybe she gained premutated memory back all at once.

If they do I don't think it will be as sudden as Alopex either. Because Karai is much more important. Alopex is support role whose life and decisions don't really have a massive impact on the story. Karai, on the other hand, is next in line to lead the foot.

I wouldn't be too sure... I think Alopex is about to become MUCH more important, both to Kitsune as a pawn and to us as readers.

I hope not. With Alopex, I wouldn't classify her as equally unrepentant as Karai, if only for the fact that in all her appearances as a villain she was probably only fully sentient for a year, tops. Not to mention her (on panel) body count is dwarfed by Karai's.

I would have been totally cool with Karai betraying the Foot pre-#28/Bebop and Rocksteady, but ever since the end of City Fall... I just don't see why.

While Alopex's compassionate streak has absolutely been a bit sudden (even in the micro-issue that starts her turn, she unrepentantly kills some dissenting Foot ninja), it's sliiiiightly more believable than any similar moves would be with Karai because Alopex is a mutant; she hadn't had human intellect for more than a few weeks before being warped by the Foot.

Karai, on the other hand, started the Foot as a teen, having had plenty of time to develop some sort of morality or empathy beforehand, even in a white-collar criminal environment. She didn't.

Basically, what ToTheNines said. Alopex can reasonably be portrayed as a victim of circumstances while Karai cannot.

Karai's about as up for redemption as Bebop and Rocksteady, Kitsune, etc. at this point. Which is to say, not, because all these characters have made it clear that others' lives mean nothing to them, with their faculties fully intact.

If IDW portrays Karai as reasonable but not redeemable--i.e. she drops the vendetta against the Hamato clan but does not become a goody two-shoes--then I think it would work. But I think you said it best: Karai has as much real chance for redemption as Bebop and Rocksteady. They used to be lovable hench mutants, and now they're frakking MONSTERS. :teek:

Yeah, Karai has as much redeeming qualities as Shredder. Is this some kind of message that women can't be pure evil and must have some kind redeeming quality? Is Koya gonna be next in line to gain a conscious? Is Null gonna have a change of heart at the very last minute before she pushes the 'end of the world' button?


I don't know. They did too much work showing Karai as heartless and more than willing to lead a ninja clan that kills without remorse and runs the city with an iron grip. Unlike 2K3 Karai, this one has no real problem with Shredder's methods and ideaologies, she just wants to be the main cheese instead. This was the same Karai that was complaining that Dark Leo wasn't actually killing people. You kinda don't get 'oh she was always a good girl' vibe from that.

She was not twisted, brainwashed or whatever. She was raised in the Foot and wants to lead the Foot and continue to use it to rule everything as the most powerful ninja clan ever and all who oppose them will be crushed without a second thought.

we have to keep in mind that Splinter doesn't know the full extent of what Karai's done to restore the Foot Clan to some measure of its former power. and even if he did have some idea, maybe he was just trying to sow seeds of doubt in her mind? he is a ninja after all

And I love her for it! :tlol::tlove: Seriously though, the Karai micro-issue is one of my favorites...

That would be completely logical to me; there's no reason for her to view the Turtles as anything other than distractions as long as they don't go after her (and any pre-occupation Shredder has with them has likely been frustrating for her).

But I don't even see her hitting Mirage Karai levels of reasonable. Not without significant maturing.

Also, agreed with the post above. The Karai micro was a lot of fun; I like the version they've presented here.