Do you think Raph is getting enough character/central focus?
 

Since the official thread is getting clogged up, I thought I should make a new thread to discuss all the problems regarding Raph's treatment within the show. Please, discuss below.

He seemed to have a lot of good moments in the first season, but after that (maybe even after the first half of the first season), he's been thrown to the side, almost as a background character. Now, he's more the butt of every Mikey joke than anything. I'd appreciate a character arc on him, and even though we're getting a Dark Raph plot, that's too little too late for the Raph fans.

I didn't think Raph got that much focus in season 1 but does have more focus in season 2.

If I hadn't known about the Dark Raph Story was happening, then I would have said he hasn't had any focus in season 3 but hearing about it and that the mind control story is the 2nd half of season 3 main arc then I expect he will get a lot more focus.

I voted no. He most definitely is not and as a Raph fan it's frustrating.

I wouldn't necessarily say he's being mistreated, per se, and he's had decent small moments here and there, but for the most part for a while he's just kinda been... there. Present and still important at times as the muscle, but not a whole lot of interest happening. He does need some kind of ongoing storyline that centers on him and continues to be visited, much the way that Karai's story continues over time; the Donnie/April/Casey thing, etc. And more-so than just a focus on needing to learn to control his anger... because that's just simply who he is and that probably won't actually get anywhere. He wouldn't be the same grumpy little bugger Raph fans and TMNT fans in general know and love if he wasn't.

The loss of Casey as largely his friend has really kind of left him treading water in this series. They need to tap into more of what they'd started with when Raph and Casey first met.

And it's too bad Spike/Slash moved on so fast to his own thing largely disconnected from Raph... they could have done something with that, esp in a way that Slash could have continued to regard Raph as someone important, given that he had probably been like a pet-parent over Spike for years.

Apologies for a long post, but I have a bit to say on this. I'm happy there's a thread for this now. Anyways, I'd yes and no for Raphael for several reasons:

Yes (agreement):
Interacting with other characters- Raph has gotten a bit of this with Spider Bytes, Fishface, and especially Slash when it came to opposing sides as well as Mikey and his signature friendship with Casey and feud with Leo. Slash and Destroy still remains a favorite episode of mine from season 2 and the show so far because of Raph developing more of accepting where's he usually gets angry at the antics of his family. The brotherly love between him and Michelangelo is still there along with the feud with Leo. Interactions seem okay for the most part, but need better development with certain elements like Donatello besides teasing and the budding friendship with Casey hasn't occurred too much yet.

Moments- Besides the sarcastic remarks made ("Is this a rescue or a romantic comedy?"), the cool, but rude member of the team has had a few memorable moments seen in the show. It could be that hug from Mikey in The Invasion or coming to terms with his anger in both Turtle Temper and The Good, The Bad, and Casey Jones. These moments might be limited for Raph when compared to other characters, but they are notable in their own right. Anyways, let's take a look at the negatives:

No (disagreement):
Little focus against enemies- Outside having the fewest character centered episodes Turtle wise, Raph really has no enemies to fight. Leo had Karai, have Shredder, Mikey has Rahzar, Casey now has Hun, and Donnie has a bit with the Kraang and a small extent Baxter. The enemies Raph has haven't been built on or have lost steam:

Slash: The two have made peace a little too early in my opinion and it could have been a very personal feud. It reminds me of the game Blaster Master, where Jason had to fight his mutated frog Fred. Either way, the interactions between these two are one of my personal favorites of this series, but the conflict could have been developed more.

Spider Bytes: Minor antagonist with only two appearances who only severed as a character episode for Raph.

Spy-Roach: A filler villain which showcases the phobia Raph has of insects.

Fishface: Since it can be seen the Turtles have gotten stronger over the seasons so far, Xever isn't a challenge. Considering what happened in Baxter's Gambit with Xever explaining his past, there could have been an opportunity to build off that to make these guys rivals, possibly in a "friendly" sort of way. (They'd still despise each other, but have a little respect for one another)

Episode-wise- When it comes to legitimate episodes, this is where I disagree. Raphael only has a small handful of actual episode development. The ones where he's a main focus are as followed (I also added in a few that might not qualify entirely, but deserve mention):

Season 1:
Turtle Temper- As the first of the five character development episodes leading to The Gauntlet, it demonstrated a signature of the character no matter the version: his anger. Solid episode to begin Raph's development as a character.

New Girl in Town- The episode which builds off the brotherly feud of the older brothers. While Leo struggles with Karai, the secondary plot has Raph leading Mikey and Donnie to stopping Snakeweed after questioning Leo's authority at the beginning. It comes to terms by Raph that being leader isn't all he thought it was, another sign of growth.

Cockroach Terminator- A filler episode for Raph's phobia of insects, nothing too big for the character. (it did give some funny moments of this season though between him and Mikey :lol:)

Baxter's Gambit (to a small extent)- This I'm on the fence about, but still label it a Raph episode to a small extent. I'd label it as it has Raph forcing to work with Fishface while the other brothers got Bradford.

Season 2:
Slash and Destroy- Just going to say this is possibly the best episode with Raph as the main character. It builds off Spike turning into Slash and obeying Raph's words like a "good" pet. It comes to terms with Raph caring for his family while also battling the pet he cared for overtime. Pretty dark episode for season 2's beginning and introduces Slash strongly while building off everything Raph has done to this point.

The Good, the Bad, and Casey Jones- Back to back strong episodes for the hothead with him coming to terms with his anger again.:roll: It does introduce the bond that Raphael gets with Casey,showing it as a friendly battle between the two before establishing them as a powerful team when they battle the Foot-Bots.

Newtralized!- Builds off the plotline with Slash and the relationship with Casey and Raph. It still felt like a disappointment to me as an episode as I expected a little too much, but it once more contributes to Raph's interactions with others.

Plan 10- The swapping of the brains allows Raph to see what is happening with the Kraang. Though Raphael is in the spotlight, it is more of a buildup episode for The Invasion and gives Nolan North a return as Raph since the 2007 film. Fun little episode overall.

Season 3:
Vision Quest- Since this is the last episode before going back to New York, it made sense all four were going to get some focus as a team. If you could tell though, the farm episodes didn't have a Raph-centered episode at all while everyone else did. Though a good episode that gives some awesome fighting and showing Raph's anger again, it could have been built on more. Either way, all the Turtles got equal screen time for this particular episode.

Casey Jones VS. The Underworld- Although Casey was the center focus here, it does add more to the friendship that Raph and Casey.

In total, of the 66 episodes shown so far, Raph has gotten a total of 7 episodes relating him as a major focus, 8 storyline wise when Vision Quest is counted, and 10 overall with Cockroach Terminator and the small extent of Baxter's Gambit. This is where the hothead has been downplayed to develop the other characters. While Donnie and Leo have developed well and Mikey getting most of the filler episodes, it leaves Raph out compared to his brothers. It would make sense as Raph has been a central focus in certain eras of the franchise such as the 1990 movie, TMNT, and TMNT 2014. Heck, he's been a focus since the beginning with the cartoons and comics as well the more you look at them. Remember, because he's also Kevin Eastman's favorite Turtle (I might be wrong here), he's normally going to get a lot of spotlight.

Overall, I think while Raph has gotten a good amount of screen time, but I feel he should have a few more episodes (at least 3) to develop his character more. So far, it seems Ciro wants to develop the brothers into the heroes we know and love: Leo as a strong leader, Donnie as a pacifist, and maturing Mikey. Wherever the road is taken, I'm looking forward to it for my personal favorite Turtle, especially the mind-controlled episode. (assuming the plot expands until near the end of the season)

I think while he doesn't have the most focus, his episodes that are focused on him are very good and are some of the best episodes...a lot better than the other characters

This. In season one and the first half of season 2, he had enough focus and screen time and importance for me to be satisfied, but after the WormQuake episode, I just felt as a character, he has become reductive of his formal self.

Sadly, you are wrong. Eastman said his favorite was Mikey. And I've said it before, but I will say it again, except for the 1990 and 2007 movie (which he more or less shared focus with Leo), he was not the cenrtal focus of any of the other cartoons. Fred Wolf, Mikey was the big focus, with Donnie runner up. 2k3 toon, it was easily Leonardo as the most focused, with Mikey a close second. Donnie was easily the third, and I think Raph had maybe 5 arcs in all, and either way, he was always upstaged by Leo. The comics were heavy with Leo and Donnie, at least the Mirage. Don't know much about the other versions.

I would also like it if Ciro and co would just finally drop his anger/temper for good and concentrate on the positives of Raph, which would be his protective instinct, his street smarts and able to read people, how he is the muscle of the group and show that he is also talented with engines and other mechanical things. Maybe they could make up things where the Turtles take on jobs to help out. Kind of like they did in the 2007 movie. Mikey could have the parties, Donnie with his tech support, Raph and Casey maybe could fix up cars and start their own mechanic business, Leo and April start their own ninjitsu training center.......

A main character needs a good balance of not just screentime, but importance to the plot and personal growth in some way. At this point in the show, Leo, Donnie and April have been getting character arcs and personal conflicts that last beyond one episode that contribute to the central story since the beginning (which is great), but they easily overshadow Raph and Mikey in that regard. Whenever Raph and Mikey get some character focus, it stops after one episode, peters out or doesn't amount to anything.

My frustrations with Raph and Mikey's handling compared to the other turtles is like my frustration with all the turtles compared to Leo in the 2k3 cartoon. This show is doing much better in terms of good, quality focus and balance, but it could do better. Which is why I'm glad Raph is getting this Dark Raph arc soon, and that I'm hoping Mikey gets something substantial as well.

I hope the Dark Raph showcases just how important he is to the team, and that they are glad that he is on their side and not the other way around. But part of me feels it's going to be another episode that just showboats how great Leo is compared to everyone else. Heck, back on the farm they had April beating Raph in training.

Must have read something wrong with a quick glance, so mistake on my part. As for the 1987 cartoon, I meant more for character being liked with Mikey being the clear popular figure and focus while Donnie saves the day for plot. I can assume if people didn't like Mikey or to an extent Donatello, Raph was usually the most popular figure. As for 2003, Leo is the main focus no doubt as well as in the comics (I haven't read the comics too much, so I can't defend that). Guess I was just on a roll on writing and should have thought better with that statement, apologies on my part for that.

As for other qualities, I agree massively, but I'd keep Raph's anger and emotions, but limit them more. Focus more on other qualities like you mentioned Warhorse, such as his wit or assistance. Raph has potential as a character that isn't entirely explored with abilities nor characteristics; the producers should do that.

I think Raphael gets his fair share in the spotlight. I just wish they'd give him a better catchphrase than "Eat it!!!" It's just another lame attempt at trying to sanitize a popular expression that's ordinarily too vulgar for young ears.

I'm kind of glad Raph is not hogging the spotlight this time round. He has had enough attention over the years. if any turtle that needs focus it should be Mikey.

Mikey was the focus for the 80's toon and right behind Leo in 2k3. Raph was only the spotlight in the 90, 2007 and 2014 film. SOTO was Donnie and the third movie was Mikey. So please, tell me about all of this "spotlight for Raph" again, I'm all ears!

I always read that either Mikey or Raph were the most popular with the fandom, but what is popular and what is actually being depicted in the toons, movies and comics are totally different thing. Like you said, Mikey was the most focused in the old toon, but Donnie was often the one that saved the day the most. I will admit, I think Raph was the third most focused while Leo would have been the least. The movies, the 1990 movie might have given the biggest arc to Raph, but he was actually knocked out for a good while, and in the end, Leonardo, Splinter and Casey are the ones that dealt the final blows to the Shredder. SOTO, was mostly Donnie with the whole scientist thing, the third was mostly on Mikey, the 2007 I believe was a combination of Raph and Leo (the sequel to it looked like it was going to be Mikey based, but that never saw the light of day) and I seriously don't take anything from the 2014 movie in any consideration. It means nothing to me. And anyways, Raphael still hardly shined in any of these movies, it was still mostly Leonardo taking on the big bads. The 2k3 show was a whole different ballgame. Lots of Leo, then Mikey, Donnie and then Raph. And again, he really never does anything important, he's like a footsoldier to Leo and Donnie most of the time. Shiat, at least Mikey has the Battle Nexus Championship, what does Raph have to his credit? Whooping Karai's ass when Leo accidentally fell on her sword, only then to get picked up by Shredder and have his chord broken?

Yeah, this has always been frustrating for me. Just a simple snippet of him working on a motorbike he found in the junkyard would be enough for me.

Yeah, I'm OK with him taking a backseat.

I think he's fallen into the 'straight man' of the group archetype. He's the sensible one there to slap sense into everyone else rather than Leo as would normally have been the case. As a result he's the go to character to stop everyone else going off the rails, but by consequence he rarely seems to go off and do his own thing - thereby seeming to lose out.

Overall I dont think he's suffered any worse than anyone else in terms of development (certainly not compared to Mikey who is almost a one trick pony), but he hasnt been the centre of focus much the past season or so. At least he has consistently been part of everyone else's focused episodes.
But for me I guess the reason he seems to have lost out most is primarily down to Leo's relationship with Karai and Casey Jones' arrival.

In Leo/Karai's case, their relationship has to have had significant screen time because of Karai's revelation about her father towards end of Season 2. It just makes sense to make this a focus when the story is pushing that revelation.
At least in this case Raph has been the one to object first and loudest about her - so he hasnt lost out completely, but it has eaten into screen time.

In Casey's case, the show has had to find time to introduce him as a new character, and has chosen to focus on Casey's pursuit of April (and subsequent rivalry with Don). In this case, again Raph did at least get to try and talk sense into all sides involved, but that choice to focus on Casey and April meant that he has spent more time with Don than with Raph. That in particular has hurt Raph's potential for character focus in the show.

I also agree that Slash reconciling so quickly with Raph was a major missed opportunity to give Raph some more screen time (and Slash for that matter). That relationship/rivalry could happily have made up for Casey not being as 'Raph focused' a character as he normally is.

I dunno, overall I dont think Raph is missing out, but he isn't in the same role as he normally is in other iterations. Normally it'd be him doing something and the others trying to help out/stop him. This time its the other way round. I think thats why it seems he isnt getting so much attention.

I feel that Raph is getting short-changed. However, I will say that giving Donnie the spotlight in the show has given me a real appreciation for the character which I didn't have as much before. So while it's frustrating on the one hand, I'm still getting to see different facets of Donnie in this incarnation which have actually made him my fave version of Donnie ever.

In conclusion: not perfect, but there's a silver lining in there somewhere.

Fingers crossed - maybe the Dark Raph arc will blow us out of the water. If it's only for one episode, I'm gonna be pissed though.

Yep, I can bet this is how it will go down. Raph will be nothing more than a means for Leo to develop as a character even further. Raph will be an unimportant character in his own story arc. Donnie will also save the day yet again for coming up with a way to undo the mind control. lather, rinse, repeat.

One thing I fear, and I brought this up several times is that he'll become a villain and then be absent for a couple episodes like they completely forgot about him or something in order to show a lousy filler episode adding insult to injury. That might not be the case but I have a gut feeling this will happen if they drag it out until the end of the season.

I don't know. I'm losing interest in this show really fast. It's sad because I really want to love it. I mean, I just don't know why these writers and Ciro can't spread the character development and screen time evenly between all four instead of catering to their favorites. It's totally unprofessional. If you want to have character specific episodes, that's fine but then do it for all of them. I'm not asking for Raph to steal the spotlight for every episode but good God this is getting ridiculous.

I also noticed like others have said that Raph is the butt of all of Mikey's jokes. His relationship with Slash has fallen off the face of the earth and they took Casey away as Raph's buddy. He's a damsel in distress. He's not strong. He's just sort of there. What does this character really have going for him? I just don't get why he's even part of the show at this point.:x

Maybe my points are way more brutal than they need to be but dammit, this really bugs me. When I'm passionate about something, I go off like a bomb.

I'm a Raph fan and I think he does have a lot of focus. They're handling him just fine.

I don't think Raph is getting enough screen time. I really love this Raph and want to see more of his story. It seems to me that Leo and Don get every other episode and then Mikey gets the in between filler episodes. I really hated the hampton arc where Raph was a plant for almost a whole episode. It could just be me, but that's how I'm feeling it.

I think it's time we see more Raphael! Nightwatcherrr gooo!

she only got in a lucky hit in that ep :roll:

You forgot Operation: Break Out. Yes it was a Donnie episode, but Raph also had an equally important role in that episode.

It's Raph's jab at Donnie's relationship with April that gets Donnie to go out and prove he his brother wrong. And in the end he makes up for the incident by giving Donnie all the credit for the Rescue of Kirby O'Neil

You also forgot the episode Mazes and Mutants, Raph had some focus in that episode as he was having trouble in what to believe and not to believe in.

Indeed Operation: Break Out is primarily a Donatello episode, but good point with Raph being responsible as the cause of the story.

Vicky, fair point with Raph here in Mazes and Mutants. It makes me think a little of "you can believe want you to believe in" as a moral. However, this is one episode I really didn't know what to qualify as who it focuses on character-wise besides it being fun filler.

To me, it's not that he doesn't have focus, it's that the focus he does have is not as meaningful as that given to Don and Leo and to a lesser extent, Mikey.

Raphael's exposure feels like wasted potential.

1) As a character he is traditionally something of a tortured soul, which would provide some great scope for compelling storytelling. So far, beside the odd temper tantrum, we've not been shown this side of Raph;

2) Sean Astin has a fantastic range and is one of our truly great actors. The work he has done is brilliant, but he is not being utilised to his full capacity;

3) Raphael-centric storylines seem to involve him turning into stuff... A Kraang, a turkey, a frickin' FLOWER. This dilutes the impact of his development because from a visual perspective it's not Raphael we see undertaking the journey.

I'll hold comment until the Dark Raph stuff is in play, but really the part of me which gets emotional catharsis from TMNT just wants to see Raph in emotional crisis. Not that I'm a sadist or anything, but for me, that has always been the role he represents in the group: angst, alienation, anger that runs deeper and more profoundly than just having a short fuse.

Being brainwashed=/=character focus.
If they pull this on Karai I'm going to lose my sh*t.

The only episode to me that really focused on Raph as a character was Slash and Destroy. I have a feeling that this mind control Raph episode won't be so much focus on him as it would be more of Raph being part of the group that control by Shredder, which is done to raise the stakes.

This could be the case but episode can still be good regardless of who gets the focus. I know that we not going their version of City fall and I'm perfectly okay with that. In fact, I wouldn't want a exact remake of a Dark sans Leo replace with Raph plot-line. I want them to do their own thing because that is when they shine most in my opinion. The only thing that can get me worried is pacing, structure, and most importantly the after math that could lead into character development.

Although base on their track record that may be asking for too much on that last part.

At the very least give me a well constructed episode with decent pacing. Don't rush it, don't lag on stuff that are unnecessary and unrelated to the plot, (that means no Apritello ****) and put emphasis on certain key character interactions like Raph with his family before getting mind control so that the mind control moment can can do its job of hitting us right in the feels.

Can you do that writers? Can you try to be competent for this one episode? I know you guys are great on the stand alones but I really need you guys to focus on this one. Please or Raph fans are never going to shut about this.

Well, that to and some of us will just stop watching and supporting the show entirely.

Why are there never options for us in the middle? Anyway, I think he's being dealt with ok personality wise as I enjoy the character. I love the fact that he's playing the straight man in this series...a counterbalance to the other three, which is why I SO don't want him to have a love interest. I like that he's the muscle, but a big softy who cares about his brothers and friends. For me, as I've said plenty of times, I don't care which turtle is connected to which plot, as long as he's genuinely likeable. His character has been consistent and I've never cringed over stuff dealing with him...unlike Mikey. Also, imo, Raph has some of the best eps and I enjoy the small things he do whenever around and glad we're not getting angry Raph all the time.

Now for some negatives...like Mikey, it probably would be nice if he had an ongoing storyline or plot like Leo and Donnie...but at the same time, at this point, I'm not as bothered with it as much as I was after the first season. I still really like him and I find that more important. Or it's just easier to entertain me since I don't have an overall favorite and varies from medium to medium and with this iteration, it seems it's gotten to the point that it changes on a whim.

Also, in ref to what you guys were talking about earlier, Donny for the OT was a fav for the writers, hence the multitude of Donny saves the day with improbable deux ex machina science babble and mad scientists and B-movie-plot-based eps. The fan favorites were Mikey and Raph hands down.

Raphael is a turtle that you can do so much with in terms of story due to his dark nature. Focusing episodes centered around him would help make him a fan favorite among children who like those type of characters. You could do an episode where he can come to blows with Slash, meet a kid who can relate to him (like The Lone Cub or whatever it was called in 2k3), a battle between him and Leo over leadership, him going out of control, turning into a mutant beast like in Volume 4, or learning to better channel his emotions. The possibilities are endless. I see these as missed opportunities.

Well, they already argued over leadership before and Raph proved he couldn't handle it, nor did he want to be leader by the end of the episode. So I don't think they can go there again. It would have to be something different...

And Splinter's already taught him the lesson of controlling his anger, like, in episode 3! But...that doesn't necessarily mean he's gonna keep it together all the time. He DOES have an anger problem after all.

I agree with you though. There are lots of directions the writers can take Raphael. I'm not sure how long he'll be 'Dark' Raphael but I still feel he's more of a background character compared to the other turtles now. He still makes his quips from time to time which is nice, but I think we all want to see more. I can see him being the Nightwatcher though. If he doesn't want to be leader, then he can go solo. He even said--something along the lines of: "I can risk my own life...but not my brothers." And then he rambles on about how they need Leo back as leader and yada yada. So yeah, I think Nightwatcher would be a good option for this show. Raph would still get in trouble, he may meet a kid getting beat up and make friends...

We're even led to believe that Casey and Raph fight crime together. I remember Casey mentioning it and Raph was like yeah let's go. But we just never see them out together. That's what the viewers want though. To see what he's doing, because right now he's being overshadowed by the rest of the turtles. Even April has more things going on than Raphael. Raphael has always been my favorite turtle...but he's losing his appeal and now it's starting to be Leo xP

no I don't think any turtle got enough spotlight in this show. its all abt the april. its sad. this is teenage mutant ninja turtle not teenage ninja girl. its so ironic

This. I'm watching some of the latest episodes in spurts, but really, if this "Dark Raph" does not deliver for me, as a Raph fan, then fudge it, I am completely done with this show. Shame, I'm watching Daredevil right now on Netflix, and I so wish we could get a Raph similar to Daredevil.




Sadly, I feel Raphael is not only a background character to his brothers, but to Casey and April as well. In fact, it seems to me, once they introduced Casey Jones, and he joins the Turtles, is when Raphael took the far backseat. Seems to me all of his character/story arcs are going to Casey.

I don't see how the show only focuses on April... You must be somewhat interested in her if she's all you're apparently seeing. I mean I think the turtles get enough focus and will eventually get the focus they deserve sooner. ;)

u must be blind, she has been one of the clues throughout the story line, its all abt she looking for her dad, compare with 4kids series, where she just appeared in certain episodes never thru the storyline at all.

and why would I be interested in a girl they r not attractive to me. i wish it cud be a sexy guy around the turtles instead of a superpower girl but like that's gonna happen.

Alright. Whatever you say. If that's how you see it. Cool. I was just saying. :P
People have different perspectives on things. We see what we want. And it's normal. (Or sometimes we don't)

i kno what u mean, like some ppl think raph/mikey is more official but some ppl prefer raph/leo... and talking abt the team ups, just add another reason i like 2k3 more becoz its more raph/leo, but nick's is more raph/mikey...:(

I notice nobody has mentioned that it was RAPH who was basically in charge and helping Leo the most all through the Northhampton arc this season. He was the one leading the training, he was the one with Leo before AND after he woke up- basically his entire recovery was aided and prodded along by Raph- and he was the one acting as interim leader for everything else. He's had PLENTY of focus this season, even if he wasn't the star of every other episode. He's sort of taken the spot of Leo's second, and I kind of like that.

This is interesting though isnt it? It seems to be indicative of a lot of issues the show has that so much character development is apparently done 'off screen' or is very, very subtle - as Marvelduckie said;


Its not directly obvious he's getting any development, but I dont think its true to say he isn't getting any. Its there, its just not 'in our faces' as it is with Donnie or Leo (or Casey recently)

I've mentioned before how Raph has become the group's 'straight guy' in that he's the sensible one trying to slap sense into everyone else - Leo included. He is getting focus, but its because its always because he seems to be present to act as the sensible brother when everyone else is doing stuff.


Interesting idea though about Casey taking his place - hadn't really noticed that before, but I can see where you are coming from there :)