Do you think Leo is turning into a Marty Stu?
 

In the first episode of Season 3, Leo was able to defeat the Creep, even though he was still injured. Meanwhile, his brothers, April, and Casey didn't do anything to help him. Raph even got turned into a plant!


In "Clash of the Mutanimals", he was the one that snapped Raph out of the mind control, not Donnie or Mikey.

In "The Deadly Venom", he was able to use a healing technique perfectly, even though he only saw it once. In addition, he was the only one that was taught said technique. In the end of the episode, Leo was so praised continually, that it felt ridiculous.

I really think the writers are slowly turning him into a Marty Stu. Do you agree with me?

Of course I agree that Leo is turning into a Marty Sue. He was perfect in the earlier seasons because he was flawed and wasn't the best fighter but still tried his hardest,that spirit was admirable. Now the writers want the world of TMNT to revolve around Leo; Leo gets special training, Leo gets to defeat the bad guy, Leo masters everything, Everyone praises Leo. Those pinpoints are generalization of the current Leo and it is sickening. This whole Marty Sue Leo needs to stop, I do not want another 2k3 Leo!

Pish, Leo's the leader he's got to become a better fighter and leader as seasons move on or else he'd be standing still as a character and he wanted to be better to protect his family. After that last attack the Shredder did on him in season two he strived to become better.

Besides you guy's would complain if he didn't get better, admit it. Just like how fans complain about how Mikey gets repeative stories and never maturing, Raph being treated like trash not becoming the Raph you guy's know and love Blah blah blah. You'd say Leo isn't keeping his words on training to protect his brothers like what's going on with One Piece there Captian Luffy.

I'm fine with how things are working with him, after the crap he went through in season one final and two with Shredders attack, come on.

Isn't Leo kind of the central character of TMNT as a whole? I don't I just always felt that he was, the only exception I can think of is the FW cartoon, where they put their focus on Mikey because appearently kids liked it when he said Cowabunga. Everywhere else I mostly see Leo as the main character.

Anyway, I don't think Leo is a Mary Sue. I just think that because his defining trait outside of "the leader" is that he's a perfectionist, it makes sense that such a character would excel over his peers.

That is like the worst opinion ever. You want Leo to be better because you are just as narcissistic as the Marty Stu Leo; you simply want the world to revolve around you and your powers to be unmatched. When in reality you must face you are not the best at everything, you are flawed. Leo in the early seasons had flaws and still tried his hardest. Spirit is what defines Leo, not him being ''better than everyone''.

Now Leo's flaws are being patched over and the writers are bending the TMNT world to be lesser than Leo's capabilities, that is marty Stu. You make a weak argument especially when you defy the obvious truth. Try acknowledging that Leo is a marty stu and base your solution off that. Instead you are baiting for an argument with your confrontational opinion about how ''Leo should be the best''

Leo is not the central character. TMNT is about four brothers. Leo excelling over his brothers with minimal effort and being praised by most is the definiton of a Marty Stu. It seems like you don't know what a Marty Stu is or is conflicted about Leo being classified as one. Leo does classify as a Marty Stu now because everyone praises him, he receives special treatment, he defeats all the bad guys alone.

Isn't overcoming one's flaws a form of character development? Granted he shouldn't become entirely flawless, but it is arguable that some character development is better than, let's say Raph learning not to be hothead two or three times just so he can forget that lesson for the next time he'll need to learn that lesson.

Oh no, I'm not agreeing with what your saying on this, the horror! You call me narcissistic, look I was just responding to your question hoping not get insulted here. Excuse me for not thinking as season three Leo like the way you do.

I'm sure if your favorite character was being treated that you'd be thrilled. Want me to give you some word of advice your highness, try not insulting people who are taking there time to read your ridiculous question.

To me it makes sense that he'd be the most skilled if he trains the most. He puts in the work and it pays off. There's no need to undermine someone else's opinion and make quick judgements on a person's character.

Precisely! No version of Leo is a Marty Stu- just the turtle who works the hardest to be a good ninja and a good leader.

No, it is patching a character to be perfect in an imperfect world, a simple marty stu. Character progression, in my eyes, is a character facing problems that forces him to expand his knowledge while the flaws are still present. The flaws make the final climax more interesting and balances the world.

Raph learning to control his temper is an old plot that shouldn't have been used because his character needs the anger and rage. Taking the rage out of the Hulk or taking the bloodlust out of werewolves just leaves a husk of a character. Patching flaws just creates problems later on 'cause it decreases a character's longevity for a later storyline.

The fact that you are responding by antagonizing me instead of trying to formulate a reasonable opinion on all of this just kinda proves my point. The best you can do instead of saying "LEO SHOULD BE BETTER" try saying why. Give me more reasons. Elaborate on your opinion. If it is truly reasonable I will eventually agree. Instead of defying the obvious truth that ''Leo is a Marty Stu" try formulating an opinion that does acknowledge it. Negligence of a obvious fact just serves to create turmoil.

The problem isn't Leo's character. The problem is how the writers handle the characters. The writers are making plots were Leo is being treated as a Marty Stu while neglecting the other turtles. A Marty Stu is someone who receives special treatment and is revered by most as superior while having no flaws.

No, he's not. Stop nitpicking every little thing a character does in the show. Some of you have no idea what "sues" actually are.

Go back to tumblr fanfiction.

I gave my opinion and you insulted me, I never at all said Leo should better I said I'm fine with his character like that. How about just accepting people for having different opinions than yours? Than maybe I'll try to have a mature conversation with you.

So you have the best idea of what it means? Explain then.

This should be interesting, lemme grab my popcorn.

^ What Cubed said. (Sweet Mother, did I just type that??!! :teek: )

TMNT is about four brothers working as a team. TMNT Is not about Leo and friends. I have no trouble with Leo. The trouble is with the writers who treat Leo as a god instead of a warrior with flaws that still tries his best.

You may be okay with this Marty Stu Leo. But not everyone is a Leo fan. Marty/Mary Sues are also a symptom of a poorly constructed story. I like stories without Marty/Mary sues, is that such a crime?

edited: Nick TMNT, on average, is well written. Nick TMNT just fails to keep Marty/Mary Sues out of their storylines, a simple negative.

No... They've created a stark contrast between Leo in the beginning of this series and today, which is awesome. The problem is, imo, not so much with him, but that the other three need the same. Their lack isn't fair to them, and isn't fair to Leo either that he starts to look this way to people because of it. Just catch the other three up.

Although I'd like to see him have occasional challenges/new skills to work on for a while, like that darn healing thing should have been and given more meaning and reason to learning it.

Than go cry to the writers about the things they've been doing with the characters, send death threats or whatever like all fans who don't get there way do. Don't get all hissy at people for having a different opinion in a thread you created asking some thing that people are just to responding to.

Time flies when your getting insulted for having a different opinion on things.

Reread his first post again, Werecat. NOWHERE did he say Leo should be "better THAN everyone" Just that he should "get better at protecting/leading them". Jeez, don't start taking stuff out of context, man. And I agree with him- Leo is growing and improving as a leader and fighter, and while the Deadly Venom" episode might be a little over the top, it's no reason to start declaring him a Marty Stu. You're reaching, here. In context of that episode, he SHOULD be praised and treated as the hero, because he WAS. But it's not as if he does that in every episode.

And Mighty Mutanimals showed him snapping Raph out of the mind-control BY INSULTING HIM. Think about that for a minute. Who ELSE would have even known to do that or could have gotten away with it? Mikey? Nope- Raph would've made mincemeat out of him. Donnie isn't mean-spirited enough or bold enough to do that, but Leo has the kind of rivalry and button-pushing relationship with him to make it work. No one else could have challenged him like that and gotten away with it, because they aren't as strong or as skilled as the "A Team" fighters- aka Raph and Leo. The writers established this LONG ago- you just missed it.


Edit: Thank you, Indigo! I agree. I WISH they'd do this more with Mikey, too. jI LOVED how they treated him at the end of Season two, but once again, he's regressed to his earlier self. Why they can't make him more like he was in the Dimension X episode or even in the Pizza Face one (because I'd love to see him with that hard edge a little more often) is beyond me. At LEAST give him a little more maturity like he started to have there or in the Croaking one!

You're the only one trying to escalate things about a simple word I said. Narcissism is a terrible mental state to be in. Most people tend to gravitate towards characters that mirror themselves. Perhaps you like this Marty Stu Leo because you have a sense of grandeur about yourself too. You seem to lash out at people that have a differing opinion. I never once lashed out at you. Stating psychological traits isn't an attack unless the named psychosis is present.

Not only that but you fail to acknowledge my challenge to actually present your opinion in a reasonable way. Elaborate on your opinion. You said you can't have a conversation with someone who lashes out. Yet here I am still calm as ever while you are trying your best to lash out at me. Perhaps you don't have a reasonable opinion on this whole "Marty Stu Leo" because you refuse to believe the obvious truths in favor of your own opinion.

Can you reread my post without a red haze? Is he your friend? This type of bias behavior doesn't help anyone. Omitting my context in favor of your friend is hypocritical too, especially when you criticize about out of context stuff.

The thing is he did say Leo should be better because he is the central character. Or somethin like that. Paraphrasing, ya know.

The episode does declare Leo as Marty Stu because it checks all the symptoms of a Marty Stu. Anywhere during the episode they could have easily given reasons as to why the other turtles couldn't do it. Why the others didn't receive special training. None of these ''whys'' are answered which just further establishes that Leo is a Marty Stu.

I have never seen anyone else praise Donnie, Mikey, and Raph like Leo in the latest episode. When they save the day, they almost always get nothing in return. No praise, no attention, no nothing!

Mikey could have replaced Leo in when the latter was insulting Raph. Remember when he got Timothy's attention when he turned into a blob? Or the multiple times he insulted Raph throughout the series? Mikey could have done something.

And herein lies your problem. Without knowing ANYTHING about another poster, you make ASSUMPTIONS about them being a narcissist, when there is NO evidence to suggest this, and nothing in his post point to it. He stated his opinion, and how he was fine with Leo's treatment, and because it ran contrary to your pre-conceived notion of Leo as a Marty Stu, you called him a narcissist, and claimed his opinion was "the worst ever". THAT is the pot calling the kettle black if I EVER saw it! He presented his opinion in a perfectly reasonable way in the FIRST POST. But you ignored everything except the "BETTER" part, and latched onto that as if he was saying Leo should be better THAN the others, when he didn't. It's called context, Wildcat. And the only one escalating things here, is YOU. YOU started making unfounded accusations about his psychological traits. And FYI, having someone call you a name like that would piss ANYONE off, whether they have said psychosis or not. It's offensive and rude. And arrogant.

^ This. What we see is character development for Leo, and that's great. But when you compare how the season has treated Leo (lots and lots of focus, all positive things), and then to how it treated the other turtles (less focus, episodes built around their faults), there's enough difference to make what Leo has achieved to really stand out, and scenes like the end of Deadly Venom to get on some people's nerves. If the others had something going for them it wouldn't be such a problem.

It's true they don't get the "praise" that he did, but then again, none of them has learned a completely new skill and used it to save ALL of them, either. Like I said, in the context of THAT episode, it makes sense. A little over the top? Yes. Symptom of a Marty Stu? Not really. Usually, that's April's schtick. She has had powers for three seasons now, used them to save everyone MULTIPLE times, and gets praised for it all the time. If anyone on the show is one, SHE is. Leo's just learning something new, and using it.

As for Mikey, he's usually the "bait" in most cases, which is what he did in the Mutagen Man one. That's a whole different situation than a mind-controlled brother. If he'd been the one to try to snap him out of it, Raph probably would've killed him before he snapped out of it. I don't think that's the response the writers were going for.... Leo at least had the skill level to hold his own while he did it.

Oh for F sake, I did by no means say he was better. I said he should get flippin better. Your just making yourself look like a person who doesn't seem to able get his head out of the sky, go reread my post please before you make yourself look more foolish.

That's it I'm out of this thread before I knock my head against the wall from reading your posts.

I went with 'I don't know'.

As of right now I wouldn't say Leo is a Stu, but he may have shown signs of evolving into one lately.

Personally, for me a Sue/Stu doesn't qualify her-/himself as one simply because they're better than everyone else. Just because a character is the strongest does not make him/her a Mary or Marty. There are so many heroes who outshine their friends and comrades, but that's kind of the point, because they're the main characters. It's their story, so naturally they're the stars. I'm not familiar with other incarnations outside the nick show, but isn't Leo almost always the main character? Sure all turtles are main characters, but I mean among them he's the most important, isn't he?
Being exceptionally strong and talented is just one of many possible traits a Sue can have, as is stunning beauty, high intelligence, a tragic past and yadda yadda.

What really defines a Sue is their sheer importance to the plot. The whole universe seems to revolve around this character. He/She is the most important person in everyone's life, each and every character will be drawn to him/her and inexplicably prefer his/her company over that of anyone else, even if there's absolutely nothing likeable about them. Other characters don't seem to have a life or personality outside of worshipping their Sue. No matter how stubborn someone usually is, they'll agree with everything a Sue does and share his or her opinions on everything.
Furthermore, Sues will never face consequences for their actions, they can get away with stuff 'normal' people would be punished for. If they do something, no matter what, it's perfectly acceptable and always portrayed in a positive light and treated as a good thing. Nothing they do is bad.
That's what defines a Mary Sue imo, other traits such as having superior abilities and such are only minor traits that don't classify a Sue per se.

Of course everybody has their own definition of a Mary Sue, this is just mine. And Leo simply doesn't fulfill all that. Yet.
There's no denying that he has been getting the lions share of good and awesome moments in the recent episodes, like snapping Raph out of the mind control and thus becoming the actual hero of the episode, which was supposed to be about Raph... The writers did it again in The Deadly Venom, where Leo was praised to the skies a little bit too much, if you ask me. I mean, personal training with Splinter, learning this healing stuff in like no time at all and of course becoming an instant expert and especially the ending: Everybody praising him, with Raph saying that he and others couldn't do anything on their own and were practically useless and Splinter complimenting him for mastering a skill only few martial artists could use... :roll:
Writers, I get it.

However, all this has happened over the course of only 3 episodes and I think if it would be spread a bit more this wouldn't be nearly as annoying.
And as bad as The Deadly Venom was... It was still just one episode. Just because of one measly wirtten episode that treated a character badly I won't judge him differently. If they continue this development and treat Leo like that, then yes, I may call him a Stu someday. But just because of one ep? Nah, that'd be like suddenly disliking a favorite character just because he's royally screwed up once. I'm not that fickle. :lol:

Eh, you are barking up the wrong tree. If someone called me a name, especially psychology related, I wouldn't care. I am not detached from who I am. I am the type of person to challenge my critics by bettering myself. Also stop trying to write like "THIS IN EVERY SENTENCE AS IF IT HELPS TO MAKE YOU BE MORE BELIEVABLE WHEN IT REALLY DOESN'T"

Leo is a Marty Stu, ignoring the obvious doesn't make you look credible. If you want me to take you serious, try assuming Leo is marty stu and state your opinion with that in mind. It is something that most people have to learn to do; to answer the ''if''s were true.

To be honest, I would be surprised if you do prove that you are capable of viewing this from both sides. Acknowledging both sides tends to make less of a bias opinion. So far you and your friend are adamant about not acknowledging that Leo was a Marty Stu in Deadly Venom. Which really doesn't help you at all to convince me.

No one was trying to convince of you of any thing or at least I wasn't, I was just giving a valid opinion of mine. I wasn't angry or annoyed with you at all till you insulted me, that's when things hit the fan for me. You need to treat other members on here with respect, your being really rude to people who don't agree with and frankly I'm done with it. Start treating people around here with more respect please, I'm asking you this one time after this that's it.

Nope. I don't view Leo as a Gary Stu. His character works very hard at his ninjutsu and takes it the most seriously compared to the others and has been doing even more since his leg injury. He's also self-sacrificing...then again that could apply to all four of them.

A Gary Stu/Mary Stu tends to be perfect in nearly every way without even trying or breaking a sweat. Leo isn't like this imo, and still comes across as humble and modest.

To me a Mary Sue character is Hey Arnold's Lila. SHE is what I view as a Mary Sue, as she was purposely written that way. She was liked by everyone, she had the perfect hair, looks, she could do no wrong, and everything she did was "ever so" perfect. She had no flaws. Leo is flawed, and that's why I like this version of Leo so much. This is usually my template for a Mary Sue character when comparing. Leo isn't a "Lila" to me.

Leonardo is the leader & overall best fighter. So, no, maintaining that role does not make him a "Marty Stu".

No Leo is not the most important. Raphael in previous TMNT variations tends to be the central character. TMNT is ultimately about the four turtle bros, the creators even said this themselves.

I think you need to read the title of the thread which is "Do you think Leo is turning into a Marty Stu?". The answer is yes, Leo is turning into a Marty Stu and it needs to stop before he is officially a Marty Stu.

You also gave explicit checkpoints for a Marty Stu which to me is almost impossible to check since you created so many outs for a character to not be classified as one. A Marty Stue is simply a character that has too much importance to a plot, is portrayed as superior, is praised by others, and receives special treatment through special training and convenient plots from writers. The explicit parts needs to be omitted because it is character specific, often used to describe a certain character than to classify a mary sue.

Or, you, know, maybe I'm just able to look at the episodes more objectively, and treat them in context of the whole as WELL as individually. Because I look deeper into them than just what's on the surface, and try to see WHY the writers did things that way. I've seen so many complaints about the TMNT not getting character development, but the MINUTE one does, everyone starts jumping on it and calling him a Stu just because he's the leader?! WTF??!! :teek: News flash! Leo's the leader for a REASON!! (And incidentally, yes, it's because he's the "main" character out of the four. Leaders generally ARE, in hero-teams..... vis-à-vis, Captain America, Superman, Cyclops, Mr. Fantastic, etc....)

Also, MOST people WOULD feel insulted and offended by that kind of talk, and it also makes you look rather judgmental as well. Just sayin. Instead of resorting to using unfounded assumptions on other people's characters to "prove" your point or make your argument, try actually READING their posts as written, instead of taking things out of context or putting words into them that aren't there. You're not winning any friends by doing that, and it doesn't make YOU look any more credible, either.

If you want to call him a Stu, fine. that's your OPINION, and your prerogative. But DON'T go trying to invalidate someone else's opinion just because they disagree. Read Mukuono's definition of a Stu, which is, in fact, EXACTLY what a Stu is. Leo only meets PART of that definition, so by that definition, he NOT a Stu. Leaving your point a bit- overblown, TBH.

And maybe you just skimmed those earlier posts, but I DID say that some of what happened in those episodes was a little overdone. But not Stu-ish. Just a bit, how shall I say- exaggerated. They were clearly setting him on a pedestal for that episode, but that in no way means he's now a Stu. April gets that treatment in EVERY episode she's in! Leo's only had it happen a couple of times, and this late in the series, it's kind of expected- he's improved immensely as a fighter and a leader, and they've been building that up for THREE SEASONS. Plenty of time, IMHO.

As for the caps thing, it's for EMPHESIS. Or in other words, it's how I choose to draw attention to or put greater force behind certain thoughts, and how I put focus on words and ideas that are important within the post. Deal with it.

It was a bit judgemental, I agree. Usually I edit out such things to avoid the whole appearing as confrontational thingy.

I is SORRY! I am not being rude. I just want a conversation on why you guys think he is not a Marty Stu without ignoring that he is a Marty Stu in the Deadly venom. Ignoring it doesn't make it untrue.

I just read that post and gave my response. The thing is this whole thread is about ''Do you think Leo is turning into a Marty Stu?''. Leo is turning into a Marty Stu because of the ''Deadly venom'' episode is pushing it towards that direction. Leo is given too much importance to a plot's solution; he has special training that the rest are excluded from and we are not given reasons why. He is portrayed as a superior character in all aspects, which is fighting, mastery, ninja skeels. He instantly masters a magic trick with one training lesson. He is praised and commented on about how no one can do what he does and he is special. That is a Marty Stu, gosh darn it. How can you be so blind! It astounds me how silly you guys can be sometimes.

PK, would you please actually educate yourself on what a Marty Stu is? Here; I'll make it easy so you don't have to Google at all:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu

Leo being a Marty Stu would mean that he is the All Things character with no flaws. He'd be as science-savvy as Donnie, all the female characters would crush on him, he'd kick more ass than Raph, have all the pithy one-liners, and would basically have/be the coolest and bestest of everything.

Leo's a member of the team. Every member in the team has different strengths and weaknesses. For frack's sake, stop being so overly hysterical about everything. I'm dreading the point when Renet shows up and it spurs you onto another set of ridiculous 'body image' threads. Given that she's already been described in her character bio as being immature and sometimes making rash decisions, you'll probably decide it's another orchestrated move on the part of the showmakers to fat-shame. :trolleye:

Dude, it was ONE episode. And after I JUST rewatched it, I really don't even see where you're getting that. Looked for signs of Stu-ism, and found- nothing. First off, it was his FOCUS that allowed him to master the healing in the first place, which had already been hinted at with Casey and April watching the movie, with Casey's comment on what his favorite part was. Leo basically did exactly like the hero in the movie they'd seen. He didn't give up or give in, and used his own inner strength to not only beat the venom, but to master the healing hands, too.


And at that, he really didn't even get all the praise everyone seems to think he did. Splinter commented on his ability and dedication, his focus, etc, and yes, HE praised Leo for that, but the others mostly just thanked him for saving them, and Raph said they couldn't have done that. That was all. Sorry, no real Stu-ism there. Just some realistic gratitude and Splinter calling it a "win". Leo even pointed out he'd failed to "save" Karai this time out. And was bummed about it. No gushing, no "oh Leo, you're our savior!", and no "he's so perfect!" Just some pats on the back, thanks for savin' us, and let's call it a day". That's it.

If anything, Leo proved just how far he's come in this episode. He was focused, concentrated on the task, and he wasn't about to let his brothers down- and it showed.

Is he turning into a Marty Stu? No. If anything, he overcame an obstacle that shows how far he has come as a ninja, but otherwise, he didn't do anything Stu-ish at all. Didn't even have everyone fawning over him, or act "perfect", or anything else one would expect of a Stu. Granted, he learned that art WAY too fast, but it's a cartoon, so.... I'll give it a pass for time-constraints. Especially since it took him SEVEN episodes to get over an injured knee that he had supposedly healed THREE times. He DOES have a flaw- he doesn't have enough faith in his own abilities. So there's no reason to start calling him a Stu at this point, when half the time, he can't even get over his own hang-ups!

I kinda hate it when they make the Leader the best at lots of things...I mean he's already leading the team you don't need to make him/her better than everyone.

I feel like Leo should just be a balance...and not the best.

Raph is the best fighter
Mikey has the most talent
Donnie is smartest

but Leo has all of these things but not to the extreme like his brothers....he's just a perfect balance and that should be what makes him good.

but ya know...that's me...

I also feel that Splinter shouldn't play favorites, but whateves...

Your logic is laughable, honest it did make me laugh. Its like saying someone didn't do a somersault because he didn't do the ritual beforehand, didn't do it while wearing a pirate suit, didn't do a funny dance at the end. All this fluff, the explicit parts are more character specific than terms you can use to classify a Marty Stu. Also use direct quotes from the cited source instead of just linking it expecting it to explain everything for you.

''In fan fiction, a Mary Sue or, in case of a male character, Gary Stu or Marty Stu is an idealized character, often but not necessarily an author insert and/or wish-fulfillment.'' -Google. Wikipedia. Short, simple and straight to the point.

Now let me share the definition for idealized
''regard or represent as perfect or better than in reality.''-Google. Again, short, simple and straight to the point.

The problem with your definition is that it is too specific. Which can lead to ambiguity because you are used to such a specific definition that you can not put the two and two together. Realize that one does not need to check all the marks to be classified as something instead it only needs most of it.

Oh boy. I am being honest, we are all mature enough, are you capable of critical thinking? Like can you answer abstract questions? or get abstract ideas without getting confused? To be honest, I find trouble understanding abstract too and it gets hard but this topic is simple. It seems like you won't get that Leo is a Marty Stu unless the writers openly express that he is in every sentence.

Its okay if you cant understand abstract stuff, we must learn from each other. Just don't take criticism as an attack instead use it to better yourself. I just recently read how M Night Shamblahblah still thinks he is the best movie director ever and speaks as if everyone liked his movie the Airbender.

''Even to this day, he seems hell bent on refusing to acknowledge his shortcomings as the movie’s director''
And this is why he's so bad at what he does. If you won't listen to criticism, if you won't admit when you **** something up, then you will never honestly examine what you're creating, you will never improve, and you will keep making terrible garbage for people to mock until the day you die.''-ajdovbbbb, top comment.

Shortcomings, man, everyone has them. Acknowledge them and improve. I am sorry but I am not going to encourage ignorance.

Yeah, why use definitions to actually create parameters on how to evaluate and identify something? The shame I'm feeling right now is unbearable. Truly, you have shown me the error of my ways. :trolleye:

2k3 Leo wasn't a Marty Stu either, but hey, hate-wanking into your pillow over the guy seems to make you happy so knock yourself out and remember: use lotion so you don't get chafe-marks. It's not like nearly everyone in the thread is disagreeing with you and your aggressive flailing around is reeking of desperate overcompensation to try to prove your rightness or anything. :lol:

You seem like a grumpy person. Nice bait there, seems yummy but no I don't bite bait as easily as you think. I am above your petty squabbles /fancy pinky.

Ohhhh myyyy gaaaaaawwwwd, this thread. :lol:

I'll keep it brief since you guys make my head hurt.

1. If someone is "the leader", then by default, they're probably going to be exceptional in more than one or two ways. They kind of go hand in hand.

2. All these stupid fanfic terms like "Mary Sue/Marty Stu/Whatever" need to be put in a box and lit on fire. All they do is tell people who write, "Oh no! Don't write what's in your head! There's probably a snarky internet term for it!" Literally every character anyone creates is a "Sue"; every single scenario anyone writes is a "trope". Really irritating. And it's not like most of the people who sling those terms could do much better, and if they are, they're usually not getting paid for it, so, y'know, there's only so far they can push their argument.

EDIT: Oh my, this kid makes a lot of random assumptions about people that don't come close to how they actually are. The hell, man.

Ha, no! You guys are so funny I laugh a lot when I come here.

In Nick TMNT Leo was not picked as Leader because he was the best at everything. Leo was picked as the leader because he asked. The self initiation and spirit is what Splinter admires most about Leo. Earlier in the seasons Leo was shown that his brothers are just as capable as he is as a warrior.

Now it seems the writers are regressing on their own progress by constructing episodes that push Leo towards the Marty Stu direction. You can write an important character without the character coming off as a Mary Sue/Marty Stu; All you have to do is give reasons and answer the ''whys'' of Why aren't the others capable. The Mary Sue/Marty stu is basically an overly defined character in an undefined world. Just because the world is make believe doesn't mean you have to throw credibility out the window. Give reasons why and answer questions throughout the story to flesh out why the writer thinks the character is best suited for the solution.