How is the Image series supposed to fit with Volume 4 and Tales Volume 2?
 

Ok so I was originally going to wait for when IDW reprint the Image series and at least a chunk of volume 4 but I'm really itching for an answer, how can the Image series be considered in continuity with the 21'st era Mirage? I would really like to see what excuse some people have for saying that the Image series can still be considered part of the canon.

Granted I haven't read the Image series, I've only read what IDW has reprinted of Tales and what Peter Laird put online for free (which are last couple of volume 4 issues). But from what I can tell researching this, the Image series does not really seem to fit. Granted most of this is research from the internet rather than first hand experience, so feel free to correct me.

First off, the Image series infamously begins with everyone but Mikey getting mutilated in some fashion and the series ended with them still being mutilated, Volume 4 began with the Turtles have no disfigurement nor do they have them in any issue of Tales meant to take place between volume 2 and 4. If the series is indeed to be considered canon, then one would expect there to be an explaination for why they are no longer mutilated but no such explaination seems to exist. The mutilation was just the big one though, it seems that character development and plotlines started in the Image series is blatantly ignored and not followed up upon in either book. Another important thing to bring up is if some issues of Tales unambigiously takes place right in the middle of where the Image series happens, then that would be a pretty clear cut retcon, remember, no mutilated turtles in that time period means the events of the Image series probably didn't happen. I know that at least one character from the Image series (an Utrom scientist I think) came back, but unless he made unambigious reference to the Image series, then they probably just used the character in the same way Hun showed up without the 4Kids cartoon becoming canon.

Maybe I got something wrong here (again, researched most of this on the web) but it seems like it would require jumping through mental hoops to make it fit.

Basically from what I know Volume 4 & Tales 2 operate on the premise that Volume 3 did not happen at all. I remember there was an unofficial comic that acted as a finale issue for the Image series and attempted to mend the glaring continuity issues between Volume 3 & 4 but I've only read a summary of it.

You read these, that's how.

http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com/tmnt/vol3.html

-ms

The Image series finishes off loose plot threads from Volume 1 and 2, and Volume 4 and Tales do nothing to contradict it. In fact the Image series is almost essential to the narrative.

Also in Tales of the TMNT V. 2 there is an Utrom named Prof. X who is Leatherhead's friend, and he made his debut in the Image series.

As far as I know, there's just a couple of issues in Tales that clashes with Vol. 3's continuity, but there's a time gap between Vol 2. And Vol. 4 that Vol. 3 fits just fine, their injuries was always meant to heal, as shown in Andrew's finale comic, which is as close to canon we'll ever be to finish volume 3.

Peter may not see it as canon, but he still left that time gap from Vol. 3 undisturbed with volume 4.

Yeah I'm not going to count an unofficial comic made a decade later, and there are reasons for that:

1. Two issues that try retcon nearly one hundred issues seems contrived. I doubt it was successful in explaining away most of the discontinuity anyway.
2. It was done years after it was decided those comics should be ignored, by that point it's alternate continuity anyway.
3. It's unofficial and will probably never be made official anyway. Peter Laird did not think of the series it followed up upon as canon anyway, and I doubt Viacom/Nickelodeon/IDW will ever care to canonise those issues or the Image series in general.

On the topic on "Laird has no say in what's canon anymore", I don't think Viacom they care about what is and isn't canon, the comedy issues (which I don't think were at all meant to be taken as canon from the start) were reprinted alongside what Laird considered canon. I think Viacom just see entertainment to make profit on, regardless of how it all fits.

The closest to what I guess could be considered a Viacom or IDW revison of the Mirage canon is what's in the Ultimate Collection, seeing how that material is treated with the most care and how it's being marketed (a collection with missing issues being branded as "Ultimate"). If the Ultimate Collection is in fact what Viacom/IDW considers "canon", the new canon is actually less inclusive than Laird's canon. But again, I don't even think Viacom cares about constructing a canon.

If it was written as if it didn't happen, how does it seem essential?

The fact you haven't even read the God damned series makes all of your points null & void. There is no real continuity clash.

Volume 4 takes place 15 years later. The Turtles are in their 30's in Volume 4, it was a time skip. That's why Shadow is a teenager in Volume 4 despite being a little kid at the end of Volume 2.

In the Image series the Turtles turn 18 in the first issue. Volume 4 was written as a time skip on purpose leaving the events in the gap a "mystery" until Tales of the TMNT plugged some holes.

Image takes place directly after Volume 2 and the Turtles turn 19 at the end of the series. Volume 4 has the Turtles in their 30's, that's what time skips do, they leave gaps and make you wonder what happened.

Actually it begins with two of the Turtles getting mutilated, Leo gets his hand bitten off near the end of the run.

Wow, touchy aren't we?

Anyway, I read vol 4 without vol 3 and don't feel I missed anything essential. As it was, vol 4 was hard to read while still staying awake :-)

I'm certainly touched you want to talk about little 'ol me. :)

Fun read. Good job to all.
If only we could do this for the Archie series :D

Not wanting to read Volume 3 because Laird and Volume 4 ignored it and said it was non-canon is like not reading any Batman comics before the New 52.

The mental gymnastics to reconcile everything are minimal and easy, and you're missing out on the most badass TMNT stories since "City at War."

Amiright, Powder? :tcool:

Oh, and the "fan" comic that ended Volume 3 was written, produced, and plotted by the original creators with their input and direction.

That's about as "fan" as Volume 4. Volume 3 and Volume 4 are the same in these following ways:

• Some of the plot points suck or go nowhere
• Some of the plot points are amazing and deserve recognition
• The entire official TMNT creative team was not present or did not endorse

Peter Laird may be one half of the original TMNT creative team, but without Kevin Eastman, he's about as effective as Dr. Martin Stein without Ronnie.

Boy, you hit that nail on the head. "Sh*ts of the torrential downpour variety", is a nice way of summing up my regard for Vol. 4.

Tales, on the other hand? Spiffy as f*ck. THAT should have been the main book. At least it was fun to read! A TMNT book should NOT be boring. Vol. 4 was boooooooorrrrrriiiiiiing. First issue was great; took 'em all of five minutes to screw it up. Shame.

Kinda fun reading the letters column, though. Always fun seeing Laird take little passive-aggressive swipes at the people who made him rich. I used to read the letters before the main book, since I knew I'd at least get a chuckle from the letters column. :tgrin:

I had no idea Andrew Modeen was the original creator of Volume 3.

The unlicensed "#24" and "#25" are what they are: An attempt by a later writer, with the input of some of the original parties, to condense certain elements of their intended ending with others designed to align the book with Volume 4 and Tales, into two issues.

The whole project is a hell of a lot better than it has any right to be, and works just fine should you choose to want to include the Image series in the timeline (basically lining up all the material that was ever intended to be set in the Mirage universe).

On the other hand, if you want to stick by official designation, or read Volume 4 and Tales only with the backgrounds with which they were written to have, then, yes, the timeline is Vol. 1 + Tales --> Volume 2 --> Volume 4 + Tales Volume 2. You can skip Image's Volume 3 because nary a reference to it will be made.

None of this is worth getting upset over.

But Image (volume 3) is so damned great!!

I was at first not going to track down volume 3, but then a handful of issues fell into my lap for less than cover price and I immediately told myself, don't read these... And then I read them and just had to track all of it down.

Now having read all of it from start to finish, not long ago, I have to say that i'm glad I did...

Volume four is slow, and drawn out, but its better than most of the new 52 DC books. Laird just got there first. Plus with how he talks about things now, its no wonder. He was trying to get the Turtles from point A to a point B I'm not sure he had figured out and was pretty burned out with it...

See all too offer people hating on him and loving on Eastman, but Eastman quit long before Laird... Both guys are great and without BOTH, the Turtles wouldn't be....

Gary Carlson, Erik Larsen, Frank Fosco. All involved, though as you brought up, not the one main driving force. But consulted and involved.

Some people live their lives by canon continuity. Word of God is serious business. If something isn't canon some people just can't enjoy it.

Canon has never been canon. DC Comics, Marvel Comics, Mirage Canon... canon got thrown out years ago and has since been trampled on by drug-and-alcohol-fueled writers, editors, and fanboys ever since.

Aaaaaaand those people should go outside and make friends with Mr. Sun.

I'm the first guy to say continuity is important, at least if the stories you're telling are going to constantly reference stories that came before, the "history" should at least be semi-consistent. But at the same time, it's all just make-believe, and a good story that's not canon is worth more than a bad one that's supposed to be.

Like "...For The Man Who Has Everything" from Action Comics Annual #11, or "Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow?", the last Superman stories pre-Crisis. None of those stories "count", but anyone who says they like Superman and yet hasn't read them is a f*cking idiot. They're great stories even if they contradict other stuff.

Canon's not everything, or at least it shouldn't be. It's all fake, who really cares?

More to the topic, I didn't really care for Image so it's easy enough for me to just say "Eh, Earth-2." Or wherever in the Multiverse that Image exists. :lol:

The fact that it isn't canon shouldn't matter to anyone, even if they liked it. Half of volume one isn't canon, you'd figure that after nearly thirty years of alternate continuities and loose adaptations canon would be irrelevant. The most famous adaptation didn't bother trying to use the comic's stories, it didn't even bother keeping it's own continuity straight.

At the same time if there's no continuity, what's the point? Stand-alone stories are fine but after a while that gets boring.

What kept me reading Volume 4 was the budding curiosity of what would happen to the Mirage Turtles in the end, since they were the first TMNT universe.

HAH! You got Punk'd. :lol:

No you are right about that, episodic storytelling will get boring after a while. That's part of the reason why most of the animated sitcoms, such as The Simpsons, aren't as good after just a handful of seasons.

Although it doesn't matter wheter something is in continuity or not as long as you find it enjoyable. Maybe it's annoying that nothing in the Image series was followed up upon or ever mentioned again, but that doesn't really take away the fact that you enjoyed reading it or at least it shouldn't.

Nothing in the Image series is really directly contradictory to what has been seen in volume 4 so far, at least as far as I can tell... And Image was pretty much an actual Year in the Life of the Turtles... Volume 4 is when the boys are about 12 years later, give or take a couple years...

In continuity or not in continuity, the Image series is a great read. Take that from someone who swore up and down I wouldn't bother with it at all before landing a few issues by accident. Its a fun read, even if it starts off clunky and only ends in a pair of seriously well done fan made issues.

Some continuity is important. Those Superman stories are also some of the Best Stories the Man of Steel has... I loved them so much, I tracked them down twice.

Iiiiiii KNOW, right? :tgrin:

Given Leatherhead and the Triceratons make appearances in the Image series, it actually flows well with what happens to Leatherhead in Tales and Volume 4, and the Triceratons eventually.

I think Image had better continuity with Mirage and Volume 4 did.