|
Raph's Treatment on the show
So... on the subject of Raphael.
People say that he has been treated poorly. And yes he did not get any real focus in Season 3. But I wanna know has his character been mishandled or gotten wrong. in some way. You could say that he is not tough as he was, I dont really see that. And some have said that the writers hate him. But I dont really agree with that, you dont have to hate a character to write them poorly. What do you guys think? |
Being a Raphael fan, I can answer this. In the beginning, he was treated pretty well. He had spike as a pet that added to his character, he was afraid of bugs which is usually associated with the character which was fine and he even started to have a closer friendship with Casey which was expected. He had some pretty cool moments and seemed rather tough. as the series went on, Spike turned into Slash and later Slash's interaction and connection with Raph had disappeared, Casey was no longer best friends with him or it wasn't allowed to develop further, He was then afraid of horses and now being in space. It also started to develop that Raph was the go to character for being the butt of the jokes as well as being incapacitated and having to be rescued all the time. He is usually always made to be wrong and never saves the day. He was made into a pretty weak character unfortunately. Because of all this, I felt the writers and producers hated the character. Now that's a pretty strong statement and maybe they really don't but they have done nothing to make me feel otherwise. I really wanted my favorite turtle to shine here and there and be strong and protective like he should be. Maybe that will happen this season but I don't have much hope.
People can bash me for feeling the way I do. That's fine but if you're not a Raphael fan, you really won't understand. You won't see the flaws surrounding the character. When we watch the show, we're usually invested in the ones we like the most and not much else matters. |
Oh, this thread again. Great.
How long before Rambo comes in to burn it down? :tlol: |
I am a Raphael fan and I see nothing wrong with his character portrayal. Raph doesn't need tons of development he is the smart ass tough guy turtle.
Quote:
|
Raph suffers from Worf syndrome, in that he's taken down and hurt to prove how formidable another character is.
As for his fears of things like bugs and horses, isn't that straight from Mirage? The bug thing is...or at very least his dislike of creepy crawly things. I'd have to re-read the Feudal Japan stories to doublecheck on his dislike of horses...but I know it's not the first time I've seen that somewhere. If possible though? Could we lay off the No True Scotsman fallacies? You can be a fan of Raph and not like a specific incarnation of him. |
(clears throat)
Read this thread on why people, myself included, have issues with the characterization of Raphael of this series. Though outdated, you'll get better answers: http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=51804 |
Quote:
|
Quote:
So given that, I'm not all that surprised by this kind of treatment of male characters as well. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
She's not in the show, and likely won't be back until they return to Earth, which I'll wager won't be until the end of the season. About Mona Lisa taking her place? Ciro said that TMNT was full up with female characters, on account of the fact that they have a Good Girl (April) and a Bad Girl (Karai). With Karai out of the picture there was a vacuum for a female character. Ta Da! Mona Lisa. Any more than two and they're apparently too difficult to write, because they get too powerful. To bring this back to the thread topic: This is what I think is happening to Raph. He's too powerful, so he has to be brought down some. You'll know a character is strong when he beats up, or knocks down, Raph. Because Raph is "the physically strong" one. |
Quote:
|
Personally, I feel the issue with Raphael is a general criticism for the show overall.
I think it just points out the issue overall with the series: Tone. The tone is very much all over the place. For every step forward the show makes, it also then takes two steps back and it usually is tied to this very issue.The tone of the cahracters, the one of what they are trying to do... (either you're a drama, or a comedy or a dramedy. You can't be all three!) The transition into last season into this season is a good example. The season ended with Spoiler:
Spoiler:
And then this season, it starts glum again only to realize.... Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Overall, I keep telling myself that this is not my TMNT show. It has fun stuff for me, but it is really for the new ADD-riddled generation of kids that consume this stuff. And it helps me be okay with it. (Though it doesn't stop me from ranting sometimes.) |
This is my 2nd favorite version of Raph.
|
Quote:
In the season 2 finale they weren't happy at the end. The only person who seemed to be happy was Casey. No one else made any comment or expression that would imply they're happy. Leo definitely didn't seem happy. As to this thread, there's already a thread with pages and pages of ranting that covers this. I don't feel that there's any need for a rehash of the same stuff. |
Quote:
So it's kind of no wonder that the characterizations of the male characters suffer as well. |
When was that ever said?
|
The Shell Shocked Podcast, which you can listen to here: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...584706376?mt=2
But here's a transcript of some of it: https://nymonsters.wordpress.com/201...t-open-thread/ |
Quote:
We have an unknown character to be introduced by Gwen Yeo plays a character that reoccurs through out season 4 and 5. Auman describes the character as as walking line between good and evil. People are hoping for Lotus Blossom. We also have another unknown character being played by Lucy Lawless. Renet is likely to come back. Valaxina was introduced in the first episode of the current season...I don't think they would have given her a name if they didn't intend to use her again later on. Even if it's just to hunt down the Turtles and get a reward from Dregg. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
That there're going to be more is great. I'm looking forward to them. But I remain unconvinced that they'll ever appear together, or that the show will break the Maxed Out At Two rule. Time will tell. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
This incarnation of Raph isn't a disgrace. They haven't done anything out of character for him really, it's just lack of arcs that bothers me. I think that this Raphael is an amazing portrayal of the character, but they never go far with it. We never see his emotional side, his afraid side, etc. I've learned to get over it, though, because they don't really do any arcs with the Turtles anymore. Season 3 was a huge letdown, especially for Leo. They had the opportunity to have Leo go full PTSD and give him development and a journey, just like the 4kids show, but they didn't. They had the opportunity to have Raph turn to Shredder, but they didn't. This show doesn't do anything with the Turtles anymore. Seasons 1 and 2 they did, but now it's just flat characters throughout the whole season.
|
Quote:
|
I already posted what I thought on the thread involving his characterization and focus, I say he is not getting proper limelight. My thoughts rest there, but I'll lay down my thoughts...
You got a great actor voicing Raphael in Sean Astin, a decent design with a thunderbolt scar largely in the unknowing and establish a pet in Spike and rivals like Xever. At first glance, season 1 and 2 balance him as the straight man in the house of "freaks"; often Raphael is balanced alongside the group. Normally, whenever he isn't the center of attention, his aggressive tone and sarcasm give Raph wit towards the situation. It also helps Raphael played the main hero in one of my personal favorite episodes "Slash and Destroy", further establishing a future conflict with the mutated Slash, originally Spike. So the potential is there with receiving opportunities, but then the holes are poked... Season 3 butchers the character immensely beyond the saving grace the first two seasons left. Raphael was turned into a plant during "Within the Woods", turned into the Shredder's lackey in "Clash of the Mutanimals" for a brief stint, injured for no inexplicable reason in "Attack of the Mega Shredder!" and so on. Combine that in with him being the butt of the jokes as a so called "straight man" or middle child if you will. In addition, Raph also suffered a bit in season 2 where he was swapped with a Kraang in "Plan 10", turned into a turkey head in Mazes & Mutants", Karai spits in only his eyes in "Vengeance is Mine", unable to ride a horse in "Turtles in Time", and the space thing which I don't harbor a grudge here. See the problem? Furthermore, name me one time in season 3 where he got actual focus alone in comparison to Leo, Don, and Mike. As far as I'm aware, it was only twice in the season, which were somewhat a balance in "Casey Jones vs. the Underworld" and taking limelight at the end of the season in "Dinosaurs Seen in Sewers!" Even if both are among the season's best, why did it take until the end of the season for a stand alone Raphael storyline; as far as I'm concerned one actual episode out of 26 is poor. That's how I see it, Raphael's balance has been off since the middle of season 2, making him a victim which shouldn't be his character. Add in a lackluster relationship with Mona and so far, it's not great for the character. If Raphael is meant to be this tough guy, making him a sissy and unable to fight 8 times out of 10 and always suffering is poor handling. It's like my problem with this interpretation of Michelangelo being a goofball; these two are more than simply aggressive and goofball respectively, they are who they are in other version and both are adored. As far as I'm concerned, the horrible handling of both is painful to view, and ultimately as a Raph fan you're going to be :roll: a lot. Quote:
Season 3 murdered these characters both in writing and handling. Seth, Rob, Greg, and Sean do excellent in these roles, but there's no way I see them handled that good after season 2 besides Leo. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
Quote:
For instance, I'm not the slightest bit bothered by the portrayal of Raph in the Nick Toon. I think he's great, and any flaws in his characterization are so well masked by the fantastic voice work by Astin that I don't even notice them until they're pointed out to me. But I can easily see where the issues others have with the writing, and honestly I think they stem from the issues I do have with the show. ie: weak writing and an over-reliance on stereotype. |
Quote:
In Attack of the Mega Shredder, they weren't allowed to attack Shredder's lair without him being at peak fitness. Does this not highlight how important he is in the team? Becoming a plant, not his fault. It again raised the stakes because Raph, the fighter, wasn't able to help and the audience were left wondering how he'd return to his original form. Once again, I don't see how a brain switch makes him look weaker. He had no control. It wouldn't have a bit of difference to me which turtle was switched. Casey and April were switched. His head became a turkey. It was a gag. Donnie's head turned into a pineapple and as we know, Raph's head also didn't really turn into a turkey. It was all an illusion thing. Some people don't like horse riding? Why is that Raph being afraid of bugs is okay but because it has been in other iterations it's okay? No one's bothered by that. Nick just can't add anything new, no new fears. I don't get it. It wouldn't make me think any less of a person for having a fear. My mum doesn't really like horse, nice to look at, but never trusted them. She much preferred donkeys. Was it not discussed that Karai spitting in Raph's eye could have been a reference SAINW since Mikey's arm was injured and Leo was blinded? I understand that people might want more Raph centred episodes but I don't think any of these examples make him look like a 'wuss'. I don't think Raph is a wuss full stop. He still fights and protects family like all the others. |
Quote:
Clash of the Mutanimals: Beyond the mind control, it's still a poor episode and my second least favorite of the series besides the Croaking. Even then, Raph is out of character in rage for.... no reason whatsoever. The resolution of saving him is so out of place, being a major issue; it's a good thing you brought up Dark Leo though. Remember how they saved Leo was Raph bringing him back to normal through a hug, correct? Why couldn't Mikey save Raph, the insults were just an out of place way; kindness kills, might have worked. WtW: Did the plot hold any relevance of Raph going into a regular Turtle? Did it impact him or anyone else down the line? No, they didn't do anything with it and went with a quick fix. How did Donnie fix him that fast off screen, it should have been a small arc leading into another Northampton episode. Mega Shredder: No, they didn't do anything with the injury, especially because next episode he's fine too. Importance or not, you can make the same exact argument for each turtle or group member, they didn't address this issue in a subplot either. The only noticeable thing is Casey looking angry at Raph stopping him from heading out through dialogue, nothing else. Plan 10 and M&M: Again, why is it him changed at all? You could very well easily could have chosen Donnie in both these episodes as the person; just imagine Donnie sinking the Technodrome offline. And the "turkey head" wasn't a gag unlike the pineapple head, it was a focal point in the episode until Raph believed. It's very grating transforming this character is the only way to get people interested, it's a repetitive idea constantly utilized. ViM: Like I said before, no plot development other than a plausible idea of Raph hating Karai. Do you notice a constant pattern with these issues with Raph? I sure notice it. TiT: There's doing a joke, then there's literally beating a dead horse. Raph already struggles with bugs and emotions, why isn't another character getting the horse issue? It's not funny, it's purely an insult. The reason I brought up each example is simple: they go absolutely nowhere for a plot. None of these are addressed, they are poorly resolved, repetitive gags, and not a damn relevant addition to the series. The character goes nowhere, gets no development, and the very concept of being tough with a soft spot is long dead. He isn't a tough guy in the slightest, I want a constant balance which is what this show lacks for Raph based on the writing. The same can be said for any Turtle based on who you favor Turtle wise, but as of now Raph is the one limited the most. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Leo: Personally got nothing against this character, he's the most developed and honestly can't criticize him. Tons of development made him what he is; sure people complain he's a Sue, but it happens rarely. Raph: I've said this several times, he's heldback, derailed into a laughing stock, gets no development or actual plot, and severely screwed in this show by removing features that made him good. There's no balance between soft hearted and being a tough guy, it's primarily the former while suffering every turn. I've said it several times now and I don't like repeating it. Mikey: I can go on and on about his goofball self one minute after being mature. I know for a fact this Michelangelo can handle an episode on his own, especially because of anything involving Leatherhead and the savage outfit. Why is it Mikey can be creative and ultimately an emotional yet caring being then next minute his immaturity takes control? That's not development, it's derailment because this character can do much more. Don: Barring the crush which I don't mind, this Donnie gets a ton of plot, just nothing of substance or something that works. In season 1 I saw and some of season 2, but really Donnie just gets little to work for me to like the character outside Rob Paulsen. |
Quote:
|
I think a fairly large problem with how badly the characterization of these Turtles has become in Season 3 (besides, you know, the other problems that have been pointed out in this thread so far), can be attributed to how I can't really point out anywhere in memory where there's been any sort of character development.
It's my problem with Clash of the Mutanimals and its GoldMutant's problem, as well. At this point, we had gone a whole season that's had barely anything of substance (and, if any, it was one-off), so when the showrunners tell us that Clash of the Mutanimals is going to start an arc, we rightfully believed them, thus balancing all the filler in the season with something of some actual substance (and about damn time, too). None of the Turtles came out better because of the events of the episode, and it's an overall useless episode in the long run. But back to my main point: Think hard about Seasons 1 and 2, and think about when the Turtles' characters actually had development. This kind of thing is normally best handled in one, what I call a Wham Scene. I think about Enemy of My Enemy, with Leo talking to his brothers about his mistake of simply believing what he wanted to. I can definitely see Leo's development here (and, hell, Leo's had some damn good development in the show as a whole up until Season 3, where they completely butchered their best opportunity). What about Mutagen Man Unleashed? Here we have a scene of Donnie talking to Timothy about April, convincing himself that he's nothing to April but a freak. Again, a great scene for the development for the character. And there are, of course, other scenes for these two, as well as scenes for the other Turtles (Raph: Slash and Destroy; Mikey: Into Dimension X). Now, think hard about Season 3. Besides that strong scene in the opener with Leo rising to the challenge to rescue his brothers from The Creep despite his leg and the entirety of Vision Quest (which yielded no results either way), I personally couldn't think of anything off the top of my head. So, I took to a list of episodes of Season 3. I still couldn't think of anything. All I can conclude from this is that Season 3 is not only a weak season when it comes to character development, but a weak season in general. And I agree with that conclusion. But hey, that's just my two cents. tl;dr: Season 3 is inferior especially in comparison to Seasons 1-2 in character development. Quote:
|
Quote:
|
i like the way the writing has Raph usually Questioning Leo, making fun of Donnie or bullying Mikey.
the only thing i feel is missing is they need to show more of the Raph/Casey friendship. in the episode 'The Good, the Bad, and Casey Jones' their friendship felt forced to me. and they really haven't shown too much bonding after that. as the series goes Casey seems to have chemistry with Mikey, and that's cool and all. but they need to establish more of the bond between Raph and Casey. |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:45 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.