Was the Writing Ever Good to Begin With?
 

This has been boggling my mind for awhile. Sometimes, we tend to complain that this season's writing hasn't been the best. But was it even well-written in the first place?

Here's what's driving me nuts:

You have some great concepts that actually translate well into an enjoyable episode. For others, that does not seem to be the case. Episodes like "Vision Quest" and "Trans-dimensional Turtles" were good for what they were, but imagine if they were both an hour long. That would leave us with room for better character development, more emotional scenes, and probably, some deep messages to learn from. Everything is starting to jump around, and it is getting irritating. Also, if it is hard to write a 22 page script, shouldn't there be a different who can do it, or (and I blame this on the standards) should page length not always matter when writing a story? I've practiced with scriptwriting software, and sometimes I time how long a scene would be on screen. If it's one page, it's supposed to be a minute, but I've noticed it isn't always like that. If it's full of action, and it takes 3 pages to write it, can it still be filmed in a minute? I think Nickelodeon is taking this way too seriously. They should time themselves when they read their scripts to test out how long it really is, as if they were live on the air. I think their scripts are way too short, and I'm not sure it's helping anymore.

Also, these few things from the show feel unrealistic or all over the place.

Why would the turtles not know what pizza is if they've grown up together watching TV? There were no commercials for pizza when Space Heroes was on? How could the shellraiser drive on two lanes, when there could be people driving? Why does April have to be either a plot device or deus ex machina when things go wrong? I mean, she's got all these powers and is able to defeat anyone with them. What's the point of having the turtles if she's so good? A little "MaRey Sue," if you ask me. Why do the night sequences
always have a full moon?

Why, after all of the times this has happened to them, do the turtles fight head on at giant creatures like the Triceratons, Rocksteady, and Armmagon? Even a katana or sai can't break them. Are these turtles even good ninjas, or fighters, or leaders? Have any of the characters learned from their mistakes? Besides being evil, how much depth does Shredder have?

I never thought the show was terrible, but I'm starting to think that this is not a great source for good writing. Also, I think it's gotten worse this season.

Nick TMNT is endearing for what it... is, but I don't think it's any revelation to say that Viacom probably didn't buy the TMNT property to see how high they could push the bar in terms of literary value. That ship already sailed. Straight into the Bermuda Triangle.

Agreed.
I'd love to have a frank conversation with the writers about what parameters they have regarding which stories they can tell, and how. What concessions do they have to make not only because of the format of the show itself, but also to appease the powers that be.

But...that'll never happen.

To be fair, Viacom has shown concern for high end storytelling in their other high priority TMNT media, like the movi -- oh... actually never mind.

It's safe to say, writing good television must be harder than it seems. Because most discussions of failed writing in a particular show or episode or usually pretty spot on.

And yet, I'm always infuriated by poor writing. Always. Writing well isn't that hard.

Heh.

I just...it boggles my mind that a network that has a history of great innovative animation with quality stories (Ren and Stimpy, Rug Rats, Avatar, the staying power of Sponge Bob), in an marketplace where people are doing amazing things and racking up ratings in the process (Disney with Gravity Falls, Cartoon Network Steven Universe), Nick would rather cash out than play a long game.

This thread really needs to be locked. I have no idea what's wrong with this forum lately.

How many times have you expressed your desire to have threads locked lately?

Your face needs to be locked!

Because on this Nick section especially people literally post the same thread over and over again. And they're all the same people.

I never got farther than 10 episodes in this show because I couldn't stand the writing.

We were spoiled, almost, with the quality of the 4Kids show. Not counting FF and BttS. :P

There's so much surprising potential a story about the goofiest thing ever - giant turtles who are also ninjas - can have. Philosophical questions about identity - are they man or monster? Or both? Is it their job to police the city when they terrify all of its inhabitants? Etc. But I guess it's more profitable to show them eating pizza.

Well, what did you was going to happen after the venting sticky got locked?

I wonder if the Technodrome forums had been around back in 1997/1998, if we wouldn't be allowed to say anything that isn't isn't positive about The Next Mutation either.

Uh, what? Next mutation was disliked from the start. Its never had a lot of fans.

What's wrong with the writing in the first 10 episodes?

I do think the writing on the Nick show was good to begin with at the beginning. Like every series things are a little rough at the beginning as the creative team is sussing out what works and what doesn't, and also what plays well and what doesn't.

The problem is that level of inconsistency, which is to be expected in the beginning, continued and was exacerbated in the later seasons.

There's still some really good stuff being produced, but not consistently.

Not exactly. The climate over TMNT-L and NTML at the time was... "We all enjoy it and... let's focus on what good there is in it."

Didn't you stop watching regularly back in Season 3? What eps have you seen recently?

Shhh. Grownups are talking.

Yet you post here and spout the same nonsense constantly just because it's Ninja Turtles related. Unless it be Next Mutation, a rather lackluster series with potential not fully expanded on or the PD movies, you come here and defend as normal. "Wah, people are spouting negativity about a show I'm clearly over the age for that I love and defend dearly." :roll: Cut me a break.
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Sorry, I had to get that out of my system, too many times I see people getting soft on the show; now with the space arc done, I've been waiting to say this for a while. I think for the show itself the writing varies, but I think there's been episodes that have proven to be rather smart. Here are a few examples:

1. Slash & Destroy- The quintessential story of this entire series. Outside brutal imagery for Slash's motives to murder the group, it almost feels like something one of the comics can accomplish. Subtle, tragic, the list is endless to describe this episode as not just a fight to the finish, but reinterpret a rather mediocre antagonist of old. By far the best Slash up to this point and one of the greatest Raphael stories of all time.

2. Never Say Xever- While not entirely tragic, it serves it's purpose of turning Leo onto the right path to be a leader. Not more I can really say outside it's developments.

3. Metalhead Rewired- In terms of emotional punches, I can bet for Tale of the Yokai, Vengeance is Mine or a finale are better. However, I'd argue this as more emotional because a sentient Metalhead is willing to find his way to be accepting. Sure, the mutants plot with the Kraang is confusing for most of the captives, but it does a fantastic job making a supporting character like Metalhead tragic. Does the machine make the man or is the machine truly a person? Leave it up to you on that.

Sadly, I can't say nearly much of season 3 let alone season 4 truly have impressive writing. Personally, they aren't entertaining with rushed narratives, a lack of wit and, if going for humor, are most of the time groan worthy. Just depends exactly what kind of taste you're looking for. If looking for a fun time, it's reasonably entertaining though subjective. In terms of story though, you're better off sticking to season 1 or parts of season 2... or you know, the comics or 2k3. The quality varies immensely as the show just lacks identity after build up, Northampton and the recent space arc are prime examples.

I could go on for a while on how and why the show has fallen from grace, but for now, I'll leave those three examples up for the time being. The show just doesn't have as much soul anymore; it knows the lore, but is unable to fully commit.

Cubed. The show isn't that strong anymore. There were problems when the show did air, but some we passed off as just, "Well it's just for kids." That excuse is not working this time around. Also, you really don't have a right to lock a thread about a topic you don't want to hear. We fans are getting tired of the rushed, immature, and pointless plotlines that have regressed our characters and development. I still enjoy the show, but that momentum I used to have during Seasons 1-3 is gone. Keep wishing for 3 more years, but I think it's reaching the end.

Donnie's infatuation with April put me off immediately.
I didn't like how it quickly turned out to be a "mutant of the week" show.
The dialogue and general way the characters were written bothered me.
I'm a huge fan of the 4Kids show, and the Nick one obviously wasn't written for guys like me in mind.

What on earth are you even talking about? What rushed, pointless plotlines? What do you think the point of TMNT is? They go on many adventures and deal with various criminals/mutants/aliens/robots/monsters outside of Shredder.

This has been the case in every TMNT incarnation ever.

Most people seem to agreed the Turtles personalities and banter was the high point of the series. The shipping aspects are annoying in general, but aside from that the Turtles actually act like teenagers for once instead of "mini-adults."

As for the mutant of the week stuff, well, I suppose that was expected. I don't really see how that's different than the worse off 2k3 villains like Garbageman, Nano, the underground mutants, or the generic humans, though. Since PL forbid the 4kids writers to use mutants we just got some equally lame characters for the fillers either way.

I know these feels. I know them hard.
Especially the one about not being the target audience.

Though in my case that's been every iteration of the franchise....

Keeping the thread on track, I'm actually kind of surprised that they chose for the writers to use as much continuity as they have, and not just make the bulk of the show stand alone episodes.

Yes, of course. That's fine. But the fact that the stories don't settle down is exhausting. Also, just because they go on adventures and eat lots of pizza doesn't mean they have to repress themselves from more emotions. When have the turtles had a moment to cry up in space, after what happened to their planet? You see my point? No real, natural upsets, even after Casey says, "This is awesome!" I wanted Leo or Raph to yell at him and point out that he lost his dad and sister.

.... You know if I had a facepalm icon, I'd be using it right about now. :ohwell: Let's recap then, since you and I had an identical conversation about a month or two ago. Examples of rushed plots:

1. Mind control- Barring the fact we go back to NYC for Karai, what is the point of this arc outside continuing a tug of war game between Shredder and Splinter for Karai's custody? I've said it before, this had potential and was murdered a wonderful episode came along called Clash of the Mutanimals. Never mind the show never attempts to move past status quo majority of the time with removing a Turtle, this was a poorly done episode.

Outside it's action, answer this: what made this episode enjoyable and why some hate it? Do not say "Dark Raphael hype" because though that's a primary reason for it's overblown state, it's not going to save the episode. It undid The Noxious Avenger in nearly 2 minutes, put Raphael very out of character with exaggerated anger which is season 1 fitted, and didn't make anything worthwhile. Though there's stellar action, the action should come from characters we actually enjoy, not be done for the sake of a fight scene. I stand by my word of it being a low point in season 3.

2. Resolving the Kraang too fast- Again, I'm going back to season 3 as an example. Battle for New York is by far the worst one hour episode of the entire series. While there's decent action, animation, and the debut of the Mighty Mutanimals, there's no build up. Eight episodes in Northampton, a standalone Return to New York episode and dealing with Steranko and Zeck twice, the second time as Bebop and Rocksteady. Barring the fact the Kraang became stale in season 2 with uninteresting stories most of the time, why didn't the Turtles immediately deal with the Kraang? I get the idea of family first, but the whole world could have been mutated in three months time, the Turtles, Casey, and April stay in Northampton for too long and then suddenly remember everything.

Add in the Mutanimals possessing no origin (the comics for Nick don't count, it's a series riddled with contradictions) and this whole story feels unweighted. I don't care for the story if the characters have done nothing on camera to focus on the main conflict, especially if it's end of the world.

3. Your TMNT point- Clearly you don't get TMNT despite being the nutty fan. Yes, contending with these beings is something that occurs, but it's not what TMNT is entirely about, even if the concept of TMNT is rather goofy nowadays. Correct me if I'm wrong, but back in Mirage wasn't there subtle themes? You know, family unity being one? I have no problem with action or comedy, but the characters at times should keep the sense of a bond. I brought Evil of Dregg with Raph caring more for Mona, an alien reptile he's barely met, over his family he's known forever.

If you can't accept opinions on the show Cube, that's your problem for being dense. At times, it's your sheer annoyance that causes some threads to lock, not us. Either ignore it or suck it up, nobody's asking for you to comment on every thread made.

I don't want to get into this too much but I just want a small say.

If we were all under 10 year olds watching this show then I don't think we would give a damn about the writing. We would just sit there and enjoy it.

When I was a kid watching the 80s toon I enjoyed it, I didn't have any problems with it, I didn't take notice of all the errors it had, but now when I watch it, yes it's still good but did have some terrible episodes and I noticed the terrible errors.

That's true.
But at the same time 10 year-olds love the DCAU, Young Justice, the 4Kids series, Spectacular Spider-Man, et al. just as much as adults do.

Kids are a whole lot smarter than many give them credit for.

In addition to that...flaws in storytelling are still flaws in storytelling. Whether or not the target audience is going to pick up on them doesn't change the fact that they exist. And in fact...it's only going to make that thing they love now be a thing they ridicule later. And not in a way that'll make the property anywhere near as profitable as it would be if done right the first time.

Re: The Fred-Wolf Cartoon.

DCAU????

I liked the 2K3 series but it did have some flaws.

I never watched Young Justice and Spectacular Spiderman but I know Greg Wiesman wrote them and I know he's a brilliant writer because I'm a big fan of Gargoyles but sadly they got cancelled and they deserved to have a lot more seasons.

So what I'm gathering here is people thought there would be arcs that there wasn't and they set themselves up for disappointment. Karai was never going to live in the sewers with the Turtles. And while her being mutated was a mis-fire, Shredder trying to get her back under her control was a nice dark touch to the character because he basically mind controlled her.

The Kraang aren't "resolved" they're a recurring threat that will likely go on till the very end of the series.

The theme of Turtles has always been family and brotherhood, and that's something this show has in spades.

I'd probably enjoy the 2k3 series only if Shredder wasn't a utrom (same thing for Lincoln), if the animation was better, and if some of the 2k12 voice actors played the characters. But just how good was it? Last time I checked, it still had flaws and some terrible episodes, too. As far as I see, there hasn't been a significantly great TMNT series. I still can't compare any of them to Batman:The Animated Series.

Short for DC Animated Universe, a series of cartoons developed chiefly by Dwayne McDuffie, Bruce Timm, and Paul Dini. it includes Batman: TAS, Superman: TAS, Batman Beyond, Static Shock, Zeta Project, and Justice League.

Oh right thanks, I've never been into DC cartoons.

It amazes me that you guys who constantly argue over the poor writing and creative choices of the Nick TMNT show never bother to put Cubed on your "Ignore" list.

Do you seriously not get tired of it? :tlol:

Silence can sometimes be construed as approval.

True, true... which is why hardly anybody abides by the "if you can't say something nice" adage...

It's simple on why we do it to no avail dude:

"We're all mad here!". :P