Do you think this series will allow Karai X Leo to become canon?
 

Look I don't know where to talk about pairings on these forums, normally in Anime forums they have a topic for this so these types of questions don't pop all the time. So we don't have one um, in the 2003 series we all know what happened with the pairing :roll:

In season four last episode the broken Foot episode, we still saw they had attraction towards each other.

What do you guy's think?

No. No. No.

I think it was not so much that they were attracted to eachother but more they had the same goal which was "The Shredder needs to be taken down for good and all."

As a Kunoichi, Karai does have the ability to saduce or charm men to doing what she wants. And this is something Karai has done with Leo on a number of occasions. In Broken Foot, there is one moment where Karai does attempt to use her sex appeal to get Leo to agree with her, and Leo just says "You can't charm me, this time."

I hope not, not only is Karai human and Leo a giant mutated turtle, but they are adopted siblings and even share DNA through Splinter.

Nope, Leo is a mutant and Karai is human. Even if they were to get together, How would they be fruitful?
Personally I think Leo and Donnie are crazy(not actually crazy). I say to myself: "maybe they don't look at themselves in the mirror and see the extreme difference between them and the girls"

Have people forgotten that Karai IS a mutant, not a human?
Anyway, I'd say no. They're both Splinter's children and even though they're not biologically related, it'd still be weird. And I don't think snake/human and turtle DNA would mix anyway. Not to mention I don't really care for shipping and relationships stuff in TMNT.

It would be particularly weird at this point since even mikey calls her sis.

I don't think they could reproduce but that still doesn't mean they can't be a couple.

Although I don't think the human/mutant thing is an issue. A couple don't have to be the same species in fantasy and sci-fi.
The most official couple in Babylon 5 Sheridan and Delenn were an interspecies couple with Sheridan being Human and Delenn was Minbari.

Although the fact they're adopted siblings and share some of the same DNA makes it a no go shipping for me.

no no more fuel for those annoying Tumblr shippers

Biologically, Karai would share 50% of her fathers DNA and Leonardo has 50% of Splinters DNA, being half human and half turtle. This would make them about 25% related, which is about on the same level as Double First Cousins, Uncles/Aunts, Grandparents and Half siblings. However, Karai also would also go through a second mutation that would make her half snake and half human, so this cuts her biological relationship with Leo in half, being approximately 12.5%, which is on the same level as first cousins. Now it wouldn't be too much of an issue if Leo and Karai were first cousins who were both humans, as those type of marriages are accepted and legal throughout the vast majority of the world, but they're not even of the same species, so I dont think their relationship should be canon, regardless of how closely related they are. And this is not even taking into account that they're both adopted siblings, which makes it even less desirable.

That's like, incest, man.

As much as I love Leo and Karai's interactions (a bit playful) and their friendship, I'm not really into it shipping wise, if that makes sense. I honestly couldn't see the show going in that direction, but if they do, so be it.Don't see how. They aren't biologically related.

Wow this is opening a can of worms.

But some points to consider at least -

*overthinking hat on*

1: Karai is genetically not that much divergent from where she started in Season 1.

- Her mutation is defined by her ability to shift forms between 2 genetically locked types, as well as gradients in between them. The only way that could work genetically is to have 2 parallel sets of interlinked DNA, with the ability to force specific genomes into dormancy or awaken them from dormancy as she shifts from one form to another.
The fact that she still has the same appearance when in human form is proof of this as any major shift in genetics would forcibly alter her appearance - even when human. Therefore, she hasn't had her genetic relationship to her father reduced in any meaningful way.

ie; a relationship with a true born son of Hamato Yoshi would be genetically incestuous

2: From a societal perspective, the turtles have already accepted her as a sister.

- Can't really argue with this one. She considers herself a daughter of Splinter. Splinter knows she is his daughter. Most, if not all the turtles, have plainly considered her as a sister. From the point of view of 'society' she is Leo's sister.

ie; a relationship would be considered socially incestuous

3: Leo's genetics are actually more of a question mark than Karai's are.

- We only assume Leo and the other turtles are genetically related to Yoshi. But visible genetic traits actually point away from that possibility - notably eye colour. Yoshi is almost certainly pure breed Japanese, and the chances of any genetic descendant having blue eyes (let alone green) is almost pathetically tiny. Plus, most first time owners of reptiles from pet shops are unlikely to have handled the animals directly before returning home - rather the pet shop clerk would while explaining how to care for them. Its much more likely that Leo and his brothers are genetically descended from European ethnic stock coming from the store clerks.

Ie; a relationship between Leo and Karai would probably not be genetically incestuous - mostly because Leo probably isn't a genetic relation.


*over thinking hat off*

So basically.... *shrug*

Its the equivalent of the adopted son marrying the trueborn daughter. Not technically wrong on a genetic level, but hardly approved by society at large.

But for that reason - at least in this version of the series - It will almost certainly never happen. Its too close for comfort for a show aimed at kids (even taking recent episodes into account).




And I appreciate the sentiment that those who do support the 'ships' have that there isnt really somewhere to discuss it without being torpedoed for doing so.

Maybe we should call anti shippers 'Nemo's? Going around trying to sink the shippers? That way you could call any thread which is just plainly asking for trouble from them a 'Finding Nemo' thread :)

I'll shut up now....

I've never noticed her have an attraction toward him... She knows he has had a thing for her and obviously will very gladly toy with him, but I can't say I've ever seen it even hinted at being mutual.

I don't even see it in 2003. I see him caring as he seems to see her as a potentially good person trapped in a bad situation and bad decisions, but that is all.

2012 seems to be the first to actually suggest he's got a crush. (Although Lotus kinda started this. lol) Will it go beyond 2012, well I guess that is up to their future writers.

Although 2012 Leo seems to have backed off on his interest a bit, after the whole "sister" and snake thing came about. Was also kind of annoyed at her for a bit semi-recently (around the time Karai's friend showed up?). At least at that time it seemed like the honeymoon was over, or so I thought to myself when he gave her some attitude. lol

I actually do ship them, but will they become canon in this verse? I doubt it only because it's a very controversial relationship as you can see from this very discussion. I don't think they are biologically related in any way and they were not raised together. I also don't see the human/mutant thing as a problem. It's sci-fi. It's pretty common. In order to make it work, Karai would have to distance herself from Leo and Splinter first. We shall see I guess.

It's not even canon in the first series it popped up in. Karai goes off to date Dr. Chaplin. Nick is so far the only other version that uses it most have them at odds with each other.

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/32/32df0...840573fcfa.jpg

This is my one and only contribution to the thread!!! :tlol:

The incest is the problem with Leo and Karai, but I don't mind Don and April too much. If Casey wasn't introduced til season 2 and wasn't such a tool I might have rooted for him but it was too little too late, plus he kinda came in as 'the other guy' at a moment that Don and April had a falling out. The thing is, all you guys think about is kids and marriage. When you're 16 you don't think about marrying your first girlfriend and giving her tons of kids. I mean, maybe but that girl is your first of many. I say let Don and April have their way, they may not end up together in the long run.

It's already canon.

They already banged imo.

No.

http://www.golfian.com/wp-content/up...-Now-Photo.jpg

How is it incest? They don’t have the same mother and father biologically. I wish someone would explain logically how it's incest. I kinda doubt Splinter was the main reason for the way the turtles mutated anyway. Think about it. Maybe the last one to handle the turtles before their mutation was whoever Yoshi bought the turtles from. The pet shop owner. Yoshi probably did touch them before he bought them, but the pet shop owner was probably the one to put them in the bowl for Yoshi to buy them.

I kind of agree with the fact that none the turtles have any Asian or Japanese features…especially the eye color thing. Outside of anime and manga, you don’t see people walking around with blue and green eyes here, unless they’re wearing contacts to enhance their eyes or if the person is mixed, and even that’s a rarity since blue and green are overpowered by the other genes that determines eye and hair colors like black and brown.

That aside, it’s like two people standing next to one another at say a firing range or something. One of them fires a gun. The gunshot residue is present on both parties when inspected, even though one of the two didn’t fire, touch, or handle the gun in question. Does that mean that both are the shooters? That’s pretty much how I see Yoshi and the Turtles’ situation (if he did indeed touch them prior to their mutation). Brushed up against them or whatever.

Ah, let me play devil's advocate for a bit here. Let's go with the whole "they're related" thing. Does this mean that if that rat that Splinter touched has some baby rats, that those rats will be Splinter's siblings? :P

I don't think it's incest - there is no shared DNA and they weren't even raised together. But the fact that some people in the fandom think it is, makes them too controversial to be canon.

They obviously aren't biologically related, but it would still be incest in the sense that they ARE family in a way; step-brother/sister/whatever. It'd be like banging your moms daughter she had with another guy who isn't your dad, or with a step-sister who isn't related to you by blood: just wrong.

(Also, for the record, typeing this all out and thinking about all this is really uncomfortable :sweatdro:)

It's just f*cking weird. Just because they aren't biologically related doesn't make it any less weird. That's like saying I'm gonna go hook up with my cousin that was adopted and it's okay because we aren't blood related.

Believe It or not, cousin marriage (blood related) is actually pretty common in the world. Infact, it has been estimated that 1 in every 10 marriages is in between first cousins. Even more surprising, it has been estimated that 80% of marriages throughout history have been between second cousins and closer. Weird right?

Hey, I’m not even into the whole Leo x Karai thing as an actual romantic pairing. Same with Donnie x April. I’m indifferent to both and don’t care one way or the other if either becomes canon, but I love the friendship between Leo and Karai and the friendship between Donnie and April. Leo’s crush on Karai is genuinely cute to me…

Raph: She threw a knife at your head.
Leo: She threw a knife by my head.
Raph: -_-

:lol:
My problem is that I just find the claim that it’s “incest” a very faulty argument against the pairing for those who do ship it. They weren't raised as siblings. If they had been, then it would probably be weird.

A “weird” relationship implication to me is Neji and Hinata from the Naruto series. Neji seemed to have a crush on Hinata. Hinata was his first cousin and to make it even stranger, their fathers were twins. That makes them even more genetically close. So yeah, that is weird to me as far as the incest angle is concerned. Of course it didn’t happen and of course it was never openly admitted by him, but it was still a bit weird...and it is legal to marry a first cousin here...so maybe that's why they had that in there...who knows...

I personally really like what this verse has done with both Leo and Karai. They were one of the reasons that I started watching the new show.

I agree, they are probably more 'related' to the shopkeep :P


I think that is a good question, honestly. Does the mutation turn that person into a basic rat, turtle, etc, the mutagen using the other creature's DNA for a template of whatever alterations make up 'ratness' or 'turtleness' but the person's DNA is still their own? (That is, the person gets their own genes altered removing 'humanity,' but they are still that person, even down to retaining genetic issues from their family like for brittle nails, or inheriting from dad his roman nose. Only now it's brittle claws or a roman rat's nose, or whatever it would look like in a turtle.)

Or is the person getting a literal relatedness from his mutation, with mutagen splicing in whole chunks from that other creature's DNA and erasing parts of his own genetic heritage?


If Splinter is the first type, he is merely a Japanese human that had his genetics altered, keeping everything that 'makes' him Yoshi, but now simply in a rat form. If he is the second form, he had DNA spliced in and all, then he wouldl have little brothers and sisters running around when that proverbial rat had babies. :P

With the first quote, the Turtles probably already have traits buried in their 'turtleness' to make unusual eyes. They could easily have been bred to have unusual eye color (like how some people breed 'fun traits' found in animals like goldfish with double tails or pythons that are albinos) and Yoshi might have picked four turtles with different eyes so he could tell them apart. Green and yellow are normal Turtle colors, so is brown, but blue might be the 'fun' color.

That might be a joke, and Leo/Karai might not technically be incest, but it's weird. Like, really weird.

In Shibuya, same-sex couples can marry.

That aside, as I was saying, they weren't raised as siblings, hence why Leo's crush is probably still allowed to be a thing in the show.

I still don't get why people are weirded out by it, and not the fact that she's basically human and he's a giant turtle. :-P

I see if this was the Brady Bunch. Those kids, albeit step siblings, were raised as siblings from a young age. It would probably feel weird there because they were raised as brothers and sisters and only see each other in that way. Can't say that for Leo and Karai.

People will really go to great lengths to defend inter-species incest! :tlol:

Apparently, love will find a way. :trazz:

As far as the turtle/human thing... like I said before it's sci-fi/fantasy. It's not that strange to see a human with an alien or some other being. Look at Beauty and the Beast... And I think it goes along with some of the core ideas of tmnt, like acceptance.

But it isn't incest...

You know, I find this thread highly entertaining. ^_^

I think it's more the fact that even though they aren't really siblings. Splinter does see himself as the Turtles father. Currently, all the Turtles refer to Splinter as their sensei and occasionally father, and both Leo and Raph have only used that term a few times.

All the Turtles know Splinter as the only father figure they have known. So he is a father to them.

Even in the 2k3 as the series started to come it's closing seasons, Splinter gradually became referred to as Sensei less and more often they called him Father.

Karai is Splinter's true-born daughter. And by that extent does make her a sister to them in that they do share the same father figure.

Leo's attraction to Karai wasn't really because he was in love with her. But more that he could sense something familial about her and mistook it for attraction.

And even if Karai wasn't Splinter's daughter, they still could never be. Because as a kunoichi she would be trained to use her gender to charm, seduce, and manipulate men into doing what she wanted.
By that regard, he could never truly trust her as a love interest because he could never tell if she was genuine or if she was just using him.

So when Leo tells Karai she can't charm him anymore, that's when he was letting her know he no longer was attracted to her.

The question of trust is a whole different issue. I definitely think Karai uses Leo's attraction toward her against him. And in Broken Foot he finally does sort of stand up to her in that regard by putting a stop to her manipulative efforts. But I still think they genuinely care for each other too. Considering that Karai was raised by Saki, we don't know if she knows how to love and be loved honestly. Hopefully we'll see more in the next season.

Man, I am seriously getting into this thread here. It’s fun debating this for some reason and I guess it’s due to the point that it’s not like a complex theory or whatever. *cracks knuckles* Here we go. Father or sensei? If referring to the former, I never really thought about it. Mikey’s never referred to Splinter as father? That’s totally surprising given the way Mikey is.Yeah, pretty much.That actually sounds pretty nice. I haven’t noticed it much for this series. Maybe it’s about even, the whole, “father” and “sensei” thing. Donnie, I’ve noticed, thinking about it, seems to call him Splinter and sensei a lot and I don’t recall him ever referring to him as “father”. I don’t recall Raph saying “father” much either. Leo, yeah. Yes and no, technically. Even though Yoshi is her biological father…Saki was still more of a father figure to her. He raised and took care of her…in his own deluded mentally unstable way. Not saying it’s right or anything, just saying that Saki was the father figure to Karai like Splinter was to the turtles. The two still weren’t raised together, though so they don’t view one another as siblings. Only Mikey seems to, getting down to it, but he also does the same with April..

Hey, how about a twist. What if Karai really is Shredder’s biological daughter? The episode that showed Teng Shen and stuff was a bit frustrating for me because of her. Saki was still pursuing her even after she’d settled down with Yoshi…presumably. I mean, why bother anymore if the woman is with another guy and have a kid together? What if she was with Saki first, broke up, and then started up with Yoshi. That’s how that episode seemed to come across to me.We have to agree to disagree on that one. I felt he genuinely liked her and was attracted to her because she was mysterious, initially, and stuff.She’s also human and shows emotion. She does genuinely view Leo as a friend and an ally to me. She’s a bit stubborn in the sense that she seems to like to run off on her own, but I blame how she was raised for that, though. The whole revenge thing.

Sorry, this was pretty long and was seriously derailing, so I decided to put it under a spoiler tag.In my opinion, Karai used her charms with Leo not because she’s a ninja, but because she could see that Leo liked her. :-P You don’t need to be a ninja to charm a guy who likes you in such a way. Hey, didn’t he say that her charms wouldn’t work on him “this time”? Hm, that means that any other time will definitely be okay. :lol: Okay, joking aside, I just viewed as, “I’m going to start thinking logically as opposed to thinking with my heart and feelings towards her” on Leo’s part. To me, it’s like Donnie with April. Compared to the earlier episodes, Donnie was kind of goofy over his liking of April. He would drop everything and run if April was involved, but as the show has gone on, he’s calmed down considerably. He thinks logically when around her if in a battle or whatever…not in a love-struck way.

Leo is more subtle, but the way I view Donnie when around April now, was how I interpreted Leo rejecting Karai for that situation. He was thinking ahead (like a leader) and logically. Not sure if it can be interpreted in your way, but it could be the writer’s subtle way of saying that Leo is over his crush. Who knows, but for me, I think he does still like her.

What the h*ck? Nah, I'm not believing that. I REFUSE.

Isn't there enough romance crap in the series as it is?