Official Episode Discussion S5 Ep 04: End Times
 

It's come to this at last. The Shredder has been revived from the dead and now the Turtles have to face not just Kavaxas, but their worst enemy as well. How will they save the city?

Great episode. It could even arguably work as the series finale for the whole show.

Too bad zombie shredder wasn't defeated by falling wood. I was really hoping for that

OK, that was funny!

very cool episode.


but where do they go from here?

I enjoyed this episode and this story arc.

I loved that Mikey saved the world :D

"I really did meet Megan Fox on that Rooftop" :lol:

Splinter hugging Karai and saying goodbye to everyone :cry:

It looks like that this will be Fishface and Rahzar last appearance. Fishface went back to his old life as a thief and Rahzar went to the Netherworld.

Rahzar wasn't alive after all, he was also Undead like Shredder and taking orders from Kavaxas.


It's the Turtle Tots episode next and then Renet and Savanti Romero returns, so the Turtles will be time travelling after that.

It really felt like an entire episode with potential was skipped. Literally, the events with the Netherworld creatures summoned could've led to an additional final episode. Maybe if it were a five parter, they could've ended this with the demons summoned with a struggle against Ho Chan and Tatsu until Splinter showed up, end credits, then conclude in one more episode. Ho Chan and Tatsu really felt like afterthoughts, especially Tatsu.

It seemed Shredder went full circle though, almost redeeming himself to force Kavaxas back into the Netherworld. It was satisfying at the least, even if I prefer Owari being the end of his character. For some reason though, when Shredder struggled to throw Kavaxas into the portal it sounded like Leatherhead's voice, Peter Lurie, instead of Kevin Michael Richardson. The scream by Shredder was Richardson, but I don't know, my ears may have been playing tricks on me.

For being a multi-parter, End Times was a good conclusion for the first of seven major stories this season. However, I can't help but feel the pacing was a bit over the place. I already mentioned the Netherworld summoning, but maybe some bigger build with Tatsu in his debut, Kavaxas' motive (which felt tacked on personally), hell even Donnie vs Don Vizioso would've benefited from it. Even LH's ending line of "Tiger Claw has called for a truce" was almost tacked on, assuming it's the final time we see him and Fishface. (Rahzar is dead and Bebop and Rocksteady will return)

Otherwise, strong animation and voice performances. Thankfully Michelangelo saved the day for once, now if only Raphael can do the same this season; Leo and Don had their episodes in this arc, let Mikey and Raph get some limelight now.

Liked it a lot, though I'd have liked for this one to be twice as long and spend more time on the ghosts taking over the city. Kind of sucks waiting through the last commercial break and looking at the clock wondering how it's going to be wrapped up in 7 minutes or less... Good four-parter, but this last one - and coolest one - is kinda rushed to end it.

Very surprised that Shredder willingly went back, taking Kavaxas with him. I figured it would be Splinter who forces him back... but at least he did make an appearance like I hoped/figured. And at least he got to say goodbye. (Guess this might be the real end of him in the series? :() Little disappointed Kavaxas never truly got to turn on Tiger Claw, who I'd previously thought might have been dragged down too, but I guess he's having a change of heart instead.


Okay, new theory: Mikey sometimes sees small portions of other universe Mikeys' lives in his dreams. :tlol:

Oh, my god. Auman. The first rule of storytelling: SHOW. DON'T. TELL.

Too many instances in this episode have characters pulling random elements out of their asses (Mikey totally called for backup while nobody was looking, guys! Oh, didn't you know that Kavaxas had to do all these specific things in order to become free? Yeah, we really did forget to build damn near anything up for this episode). And then there's Auman's golden line: "I feel so bad for him/her." Instead of just telling the audience that Leo has a burden (probably the easiest thing to show this character do), just show it in a meaningful scene.

Also, what was with that useless "look for the light in the darkness" BS? Besides that being the most immediate go-to "old wise wisdom" remark, nothing that happened in the climax reflected that at all.

There really is a lot wrong with this episode, but probably the worst aspect of it is that it tries way too hard to do everything at once. In one scene, it's a Leo episode, but then they completely drop that in favor for putting the focus on Casey for one scene, then suddenly Fishface gets a rushed closure, then it tries to do something with Tiger Claw I think, then Shredder is a puppet of Kavaxas but then kinda isn't or something along those lines, then Mikey is the one who saves the day, and then Splinter comes back to the realm of the living I think (??) and then leaves again. This episode is way too packed it can't even give adequate time to one single character.

The very point of an arc, writers, is to show a story building up over time. If one episode feels too packed but the other three aren't quite as packed, your first impulse should be to disperse these elements into other episodes, or even add an episode if it gets this bad.

Did anyone honestly think that ending was earned? Mikey used gum to stick a piece of stone together to stop dead guys from emerging and just kinda hovering there. Kavaxas didn't emerge and show his power and/or terrorize the city with it. This wasn't nearly as bad as either Kraang invasions, The Super Shredder killing Splinter, or, y'know, the entire f*cking world being engulfed by a black hole. And yet, somehow, this event that is tiny and insignificant in comparison to damn near everything else that's happened in this New York City warrants a melodramatic "book-end" type ending. Not only does it not make sense in the context of the episode, but it's the fourth episode of the season.

But, I will give props to Mikey. Mikey was easily the most entertaining part of this entire episode to me. Watching him steal the slab from Tiger Claw (with comically fitting sound effects alongside) and then find the broken slab later on and repair it using bubble gum honestly got some laughs out of me. And, of course, I always love it when this show takes a stab at the Bay movies, so I got a kick out of that Megan Fox joke.

Otherwise... hoo boy this is the second coming of Earth's Last Stand imo. What a disappointment (which is saying a lot, considering last week wasn't exactly a piece of art).

Eric Bauza‏ @bauzilla 2m2 minutes ago

END TIMES.. Tiger Claw's last appearance. So grateful, to hav been a part of such an amazing series!! Thank You!!

Aww that's a shame, I guess that means no more Alopex as well.

HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! Iam preparing my demon army now and soon we will attack evryone in new york city and kill the turtles and their allies. That why i went to underworld with the demon so we can prepare our attack on our enemies!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA I will be back very very soon!!!

Yeah you will be back in season 6, so at the moment you can piss off and come back for season 6.

I think Alopex is in season 5. Then again, maybe it's just Tang Shen: https://www.instagram.com/p/BQBmW8_Fri4/?hl=en

Either way, pretty lame that they're not gonna properly follow up on Tale of TigerClaw.

When is the hiatus over?

"Hey guys, didn't ya hear? Tiger Claw made a truce!"

What a shame to end a character with so much potential in such a manner.

I'd be really surprised if this is Tiger Claw's last episode, maybe the VA doesn't want to spoil anything?

In any case don't see how this ep was rushed, the pacing was perfect. We don't need long drawn out events of the world being overrun by ghosts or Dead Shredder and Kavaxas roaming around for 20 episodes. They did it perfectly and it's about as much an ending I would have wanted for the show.

Also Splinter's final goodbye to both Miwa and the Turtles was fantastic, since he didn't get a proper farewell to them when he died. He now returned to the afterlife.

Stick a fork in yourself. You're done.

What are the odds that Fishface fled to the Caribbean?

Of all the dead villains, Kraang Prime, Rat King, The Hammer, Dregg, and Mozar didn't bother to show up.

I thought it was great episode, Nice to see TigerClaw coming to his sensing and realizing, What Shredder has done was really bad, And siding with the Turtles in the end, and calling for a truce.

Its said this was his last appearance, Such a great character, Hopefully we'll see other versions of TigerClaw in future shows, Perhaps the new series in 2018? We can only hope.

I really enjoyed this episode. Loved the Ghostbusters stuff too.

I replied to Eric Bauza and he responded back to me.
https://twitter.com/bauzilla/status/851150671973830656

I hope we see TigerClaw make another appearance in the 2018 series, Since he's the breakout character of this generation of TMNT.

honestly, the stuff this silly show chooses to remember...

they brought back the evil chinese dead guy no one remembers?
instead of someone like the rat king?

And Shredders motivations..ugh. first he wants to rule, then he obeys, then he turns and goes back to hell? it's like they forgot he was part of the plot midway through. his sudden turn around made no real sense at all.


oy. i hope the next show is more well run.

A lot of people knew Ho Chan was returning, there was an Instagram post about it last year.

Old Hob is more of a breakout character than Tiger Claw; hell, Alopex as well since she's appeared in this series and debuted in IDW.

They had Rat King return in Darkest Plight, which was at the end of season 4. James Wong was also doing voice recordings for this season, which specifically seems to be this episode.

Unless you mean you wanted Rat King to reappear again? Then I'd agree with you, but your writing makes it hard to decipher what you want at points.

That's a shame if that's it for Tiger Claw. I'd hoped we'd at least see a little of the direction that he, Fishface, and Baxter (Rahzar is gone again?) go from here.


Really wish the ghostly part of this was far longer. With the glowing ghost skeletons and all, that would be fun for an entire arc.

I meant breakout character from the nick animated series, I have a feeling this character will make some appearance at some point, maybe in the new series, or IDW comics? Who knows.

Isn't TigerClaw appearing in the IDW comics based on the Nick universe?

Still trolling?

They just brought Rat King back last season, genius. In a Super Shredder episode, no less.

Are you literally posting garbage on purpose now, or is a children's cartoon too hard for you to understand? Shredder was under control of Kavaxas, after he no longer was he was able to break free and send them both back to the netherworld. Shredder's "We don't belong here!" line obviously implies his spirit/mind/dead body/etc. doesn't feel like he has a place in the living world.

Hopefully you never post in the episode threads for the next cartoon.

I remember several months ago, Those around here thinking that TigerClaw go against his master right at the end of Season 3, But it only took this episode from Season 5 for TigerClaw to be redeemed.

Mmm they don't really have 'time' though do they? It's the last season, they've got seven stories to fit over 20 episodes which equates to less than 3 episodes per story. And they have a definitive deadline for the season, with the next series coming out so it's not like the team can faff around with re-writes or any major pacing issues.

Plus one of the biggest problems I think with this show is sometimes they stretched out plots and certain character developments so much that we forgot about them or they just didn't have the same impact that they could've/should've done.

So in a way I'm glad that we're getting things wrapped up so quick.




Mikey and Splinter were AWESOME in this episode.

Still no excuse for the writers to back themselves in a corner like this. I'll use Leo as an example. His place in this arc was touched upon in the first episode nicely. The next two episodes, we didn't get any of it. We didn't get anything on him until one random scene in this episode, then nothing, and then again in one of the last scenes. They had three episodes to stretch this out and properly allow the story some time to develop, but they chose to do it in one, which is completely fine if we're only talking about the Leo arc. But we're not. We're talking about all the other sh*t they sandwiched into this one episode that could've easily been done without and just put in other episodes.

Rewatching this episode, I completely forgot Ho Chan, Leatherhead, and B&R were even in this episode because it's so f*cking packed with random undead and suddenly alive (??) but then dead Splinter, a Shredder that is a puppet of Kavaxas but suddenly isn't, a sudden telling of all the exact things Kavaxas needs to do to get free (and, well, other sudden tellings of things for that matter), Fishface's renouncing of the Foot (?), and an invasion of 999 happy haunts that doesn't really go anywhere or feel perilous at all among other things. That's not pressed for time, that's just really bad writing.

It doesn't matter how much 'time' they have. Good writing can save the pacing of a story like this. They could have led the characters into the events of this story better in previous episodes, particularly #3 (an episode that did NOT take my heart and will probably be goin' to jail), or Auman could have just not put so much sh*t into this episode.

It's times like these that make me wish we had a trend for TMNT. I got it: #fireauman
__________________

All joking aside, this easily could've been a five episode arc. Maybe focus on the resurrection of Shredder and have be tough to defeat. (Although Leo struggling against him this episode is off putting) The end could literally have all the creatures arisen as Ho Chan and Tatsu almost kill the secondary team when Splinter shows up. Cue "to be continued" and then handle the Netherworld material. It would give much more breathing room, especially if we had 26 episodes this season instead of the 20.

However, that's not the case and it suffers greatly. :ohwell:

Observations:

Zombie Super Shredder has worms? Nice callback to Mirage, perhaps?

Loved Xever's little exposition flashback. I like that fish.

Tigerclaw very perceptive about Zombie Super Shredder being more of a puppet than a true resurrection. Makes me wonder if the same was true of Rahzar since he sided with Hot Head in the final battle.

Rocksteady blew another 80s reference: "Let's make like tree and..."

I really like the popcorn popper feature of Donatello's ghostbusting proton packs. Seems like they at least owed an explanation how he learned to make supernatural weapons besides just getting a random reading of Kavaxas.

I don't quite understand why the Turtles view Casey as largely incompetent yet keep bringing him along for missions. Mikey at least threw him some love. Also, who would have thought "So Metal!" Casey would be crybaby about "dead things?"

Seems like there might have been a rush edit between when Karai jumps on Super Shredder and the next shot where he's falling down the pit.

Mikey pieces the amulet's three pieces together using his toes.

That "Kitty Jones" billboard has seen a lot of action during this series, but it's still standing!

Shredder seemed to have a brief moment of redemption when he jumps on Kavaxas and declares "We don't belong here!" before shoving them both back to the netherworld. Nice to see him regain a shred of dignity after becoming a Hot Head's zombie puppet.

Disappointed that there's no actual epilogue between Tigerclaw and Turtles, just summarized off-camera, especially if we never see him again.

Ghost Splinter becomes temporarily tangible? Wha???

I didn't think the sunset was THAT amazing, but it makes sense in context and mirrors the conclusion to season 4.

yep.

but, god forbid i point stuff like this out ;o).

it just feels like an excuse to have creepy things in the show.

The Fish Face thing was as much a COMPLETE 180 as Shredder suddenly shoving Hot head in the hole. I half expected donnie to say 'here fishface, have some anti mutagen' just to end that characters plot line for good ;o)

he wasn't really redeemed. he got pushed out and had second thoughts on ending the world. if he was second in command he probably still would have went along with the plan. hence, probably, temporary truce.

with shows like this, he'll probably go right back to being a bad guy next episode.

I wonder if he's still in control of the Foot Clan during the truce.

I can see near the end of the season, Karai getting back control of the Foot Clan and turning them good.

My favourite thing about the episode Is the ending with Karai hugging Splinter. It felt like a proper send off to his character while in Requiem it felt somewhat less conclusive. If Splinter doesn't appear after this (excluding the flashback episode) I would be fully satisfied.

Why on earth would this bother you? Splinter never came back to life, his spirit was there and he said goodbye to his family at the end. How could this not have been made more clear?

And you're seriously saying Leatherhead being there, Ho-chan, or the stuff with Fishface is "rushed" when they were all just there to be minor supporting characters in the first place? How the hell is this different than when the 4kids series did the same thing shoving Leatherhead in a whole bunch of Shredder episodes where he barely did anything but a small fight scene? I don't even understand why the hell you keep saying, "bad writing?" This doesn't have to be expanded on for 20 minutes or episodes, they gave us a huge compact story and the characters got their resolutions.

You answered your own question. None of it matters. There's no real reason for any of it. Bare bones, this episode is a story about Kavaxas winning control and unleashing his wrath and the Turtles stopping him. We also have to include the thing with Zombie Shredder because that's been built up over the course of the arc. But then, suddenly, we bring Splinter in for no reason (keep in mind, Kavaxas is releasing the underworld, and where Splinter went to at the end of the episode definitely was not the underworld, so why he was even there in the first place is beyond me) and somehow that's important, because it takes up a couple scenes. Then, we have the thing with Fishface and his rather uneventful complete 180 turn, AND we get a buttload of disconnected exposition about the minions from him that could've easily been inserted in any other episode.

Then there's that whole mess with Shredder. He served no real purpose in this story at all. He could've not been brought back at all and the story really wouldn't be different in any way. Someone must've realized this, so they just lazily inserted all the little specific things Kavaxas needed to do to unleash his power (instead of, I don't know, building it up over the last three episodes), with resurrecting an evil warrior applying to Shredder. I can't be the only one who thought this came clean out of nowhere and just came off as pure lazy.

Things like Leatherhead and Karai being randomly inserted into the story clean out of nowhere are minor complaints, but they take up time which creates problems for the main part of the story. Then, of course, there's the whole thing with Leo and Splinter, which also comes off as rather forced for reasons I've already gone over in previous posts.

As for the 2k3 series, the difference between that and this is that was simply bringing in Leatherhead for seemingly no reason, which is fine seeing as how it didn't impact the final product. Every single thing I have just mentioned (obviously, not including randomly bringing Leatherhead in, although it was still lazily handled) negatively impacts this episode in some significant manner.

That made me laugh harder than it probably should have. :lol: It is times like these, though, I have to ask why it was so easy for them to fire Ventimilia and Sternin after one season, but Auman can stick around for four. Nothing against the guy personally, but it is something I wonder from time to time.