Would the Splinter/Shredder rivalry be improved if Yoshi did wronged Saki
 

We all know how the history with Nick Splinter and Shredder. However what happened if Yoshi did heavily damage Saki in either a psychological/physical manner that was 100% Yoshi's fault and it was selfish and careless in nature. Also when I say hurt I don't mean Tang Shin thinking Yoshi's penis was better than Saki's or Yoshi beat up Saki just because the latter called him names.

I don't think it would change very much, especially since Saki already insists that Yoshi wronged him. It would just give him an actual right to do so.

It was also the actions of Yoshi's father which accounted to Saki's hatred. I don't know, if they made Yoshi do something more then that would make Shredder more of the good guy but there was a deep level of hatred.
In the ep at the end of season 2, remember when Shredder said he had imagined with world in chaos since he was a boy? I wonder if there was also a tendency there with him anyway.

Yes, I feel that even OT Shredder had a better reason for hating Splinter than Nick Shredder did. We needed something more, if not we just get a boring "I'm bad because I"m bad" villain.

If in terms of an improved rivalry you mean getting along better then no, their conflict would be even worse since Saki would have more actual reasons to hate Yoshi rather than making his own version of the story. In terms of storytelling potential, maybe. I'd be interested in seeing that angle explored someday.

Also

What the shell dude? :o

But iwas Yoshi fault. If he didnt attack me i wouldnt be heavily damaged(my face burned because of him). It was all 100% yoshi fault and you know it!

:tlol: WHAT?!?

Unless your missed it, Saki blames Yoshi for Tang Shen dying. He went to slash Yoshi with his wolverine claws and missed and killed Tang Shen instead. Saki loved Tang Shen too, so he stole their daughter and went off.

I think it depends on how it was presented.

If Hamato Yoshi did actually do something to wrong the Shredder, then yes Shredder would be more justified in his anger towards Splinter.


However if the Shredder was deliberately hurt or attacked by Hamato Yoshi for good reasons.

Take the IDW for example, Oroku Saki’s father organizes a coup d'état against the leader of the Foot Clan because he was organizing the slaughter of innocent people in addition to taking out targeted foes. However their former leaders spirit is reborn in Oroku Saki. This is noted early, but they let it slide as Saki was just a child. As Saki grows up he regains the memories of his past life and gains vengeance upon his father.

Hamato Yoshi later on speaks against Saki about organizing the wholesale slaughter of the innocent and Saki takes this as treason ordering the deaths of Yoshi, Tang Shen, and their children.

Centuries after that Shredder commits seppuku with Splinter assisting in it. Karai also temporarily leaves the Foot Clan in Splinter’s hands until she returns. Mikey doesn’t agree with the direction things are going and opts to leave. And later on when Splinter kills Darius Dunn, the other three Turtles cut ties with their father.

Or the original Mirage comic where Hamato Yoshi kills Oroku Nagi because the latter man was beating up Tang Shen. Even though his actions were for a good reason, he still killed a member of his clan so Hamato Yoshi and his wife are banished and leave for New York. Oroku Saki however is only a seven year old child so he possibly didn’t understand the reasons as to why his brother had to die, but he did understand the man who took his brother from him was still alive. So he rises in the ranks of the Foot Clan and kills Hamato Yoshi and Tang Shen. Splinter manages to scratch Oroku Saki’s face and then once he and the Turtles are mutated trains them to be his agents of death so that he can have vengeance for his masters death.

So perhaps something could be presented this way. Oroku Saki is power mad and nothing outside of death will stop him. To end the needless bloodshed Hamato Yoshi takes out Saki for the good of the world before accepting banishment. Here he and his adopted pets become mutated and thus become a family. Saki had however survived his injuries (perhaps with some help from Krang or the Kraang) and his first order of buisness is to kill Hamato Yoshi and anyone who is loyal to him.

Splinter has in the mean time been raising his sons peacefully, when he senses or becomes aware that his old enemy is alive and will come for them. So he begins training his sons in Ninjitsu for the purpose of being an army of death for the good of the world. The Turtles take to their training naturally with little question. But when they confront the Shredder for the first time, the Shredder tells them that Splinter has lied to them and he was raising them to bring about his death. He then offers them a place in the foot clan as his followers.

The Turtles refuse this and barely escape with their lives. But confront Splinter about this accusation so they know the truth. Splinter tells them the truth of everything to let them know that yes there was a specific purpose for their training. The Turtles accept this, but also lose faith in their father/sensei to the point of cutting ties with him. They all agree the Shredder is a dangerous force that needs to be stopped, but they refuse to be used as a catalyst in the farce between Shredder and Splinters ideals.

I didn't miss it, it's just silly and weak which I don't expect from a show made in 2012.

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How precisely?

None of that scenario is silly at all.

His what...? Oh my. :twink: (These pressing questions are why she needs to live so we can find out! :tlol: And for other much better reasons.)


Hm. It's always been kind of a two sided revelry already with, as been mentioned, Saki already believing he's been wronged, though it might be nice to mix it up and not make it/part of it over a girl.

If this was the Yoshi who becomes Splinter, it's hard to picture Yoshi doing anything major and keeping intact who Splinter is and his ability to raise the Turtles as good, decent people (revenge killing aside). At least not without some major soul searching and turning his life around... Which could itself be interesting I guess, albeit needing a lot more backstory.

Though something more simple, but deeper and personal -- without making Yoshi necessarily a bad person, just made a bad decision that resulted in causing himself future problems -- could work.

For example, as a mix of new and already canon elements, lets say that...

Now personally I saw this as being the Yoshi who becomes Splinter, but it could just as well work that Splinter in a sense 'inherits' the heirloom from Yoshi and is determined to keep it protected and hidden from Saki ever getting it back.

I've long been in favor of an ethically and emotionally complex take on Shredder. I thought the 4Kids show was gonna go that route with him, until they revealed he was just an alien squid in an android who lived only for world-domination and revenge.

The Nick toon flashback episode was a very interesting take on the Yoshi-Saki dynamic. I wish it could have had more development. For the good chunk of the series, Saki did seem to genuinely care for Karai... in his own twisted way.

Agreed, I liked that they went and explored some of their past.

50 Shades of Yoshi

Yeah, the 4Kids route really messed up in making the one-sidedness on Splinter's side. Splinter's just an angry ROUS to Ch'rell and probably thinks nothing of him, and puts more of his grudge on the turtles, who even then weren't worth all of his energy. On some end, I can see how that would work a little bit, but this isn't the storyline for it.

I actually liked how in 2k3, the turtles and Splinter were just minor annoyances to Ch'rell who had bigger plans.

That of course, changed later on: reaching its peak in Turtles Forever where Ch'rell's sole motivation was "I HATE TURTLES! DESTROY ALL TURTLES!"

Yeah, that was a major left-heel turn, but I'd imagine that having something to do with them being connected to his capture and getting left on a giant block of ice.

Missed opportunity not putting him in league with OT Burne Thompson's girlfriend, Tiffany. :lol:

Either she'd make a great girlfriend for a future Shredder, or I could see (not really) her being a mind blowing reveal that she herself is now The Shredder! "Don't you remember me Turtles?! You plagued me with your existence since the 80s and I've come to rid the planet of you!"

Right, you've given me no choice but to do this:

https://i.imgur.com/vSVH5aa.png

But oh man, that might actually have been a really funny twist in Turtles Forever. Like maybe instead of sending Ch'rell to the "ice block", they sent him to a different universe, which could be worked into Turtles Forever. Of course, that would require the writing of Turtles Forever having a bigger sense of humor.

Iam already searching for a blond girlfriend and is only a matter of time until i find her. I dont know if her name will be tiffany but i will train her to become a ninja and join my foot clan! I also want her to wear glasses and to be good at sciense so i can use her as both a ninja and a scientist. Having her working on a lab with stockman in day and going with me on adventures on night. With her i can repace both Baxter and Karai ! That my plan! You will see her in the 2018 show! Just be patient for a few more months!

:lol: End up kinda like what 2012 did with Irma.

Tell you what, that Android body doesn't have much breathing room, does it? Fashion over comfort. :tlol:

Yeah, that made the editing pretty tricky :lol: . I almost gave up because of how tiny she was.

Coudln't the original Shredder and Krang do that too?

Dear lord, Shredder gets nagged enough by Krang as it is! He wouldn't last a day with Tiffany in the mix :lol: .

That being said though...Tiffany would probably get along with Krang once/if she gets over how gross he'd be to her. Bonding over Shredder mockery.

Honestly I'm kinda on board with having Yoshi with a very shady and violent past and he is making up for it. Dude was a ninja and while he was probably the most nice ninja in the clan he still probably did horrible stuff here and there so its not like he doesn't have blood on his hands.

It could actually be a nice duality between Shredder and Splinter both of them representing Revenge and Redemption in that no matter what you did there is always a chance to improve the world around you and no matter how just you vengeance is you will become the monster you searched for if you build your worldview full of malice and spite.

Now I just hear catty high school girls insulting Shredder's wardrobe... :lol:

Yeah, I feel like a lot of TMNT forgets the part about Yoshi being a Ninja. And I might credit that toward how westernized the franchise is as a whole. It doesn't matter how honorable the guy is, he was still basically an assassin.

And then his mother comes for a holiday...pretty soon Bebop and Rocksteady bend to the teasing because everyone else was doing it.

Yoshi and his family has done horriby thing including killing my family. He is a monster! A heartless monster!

I never get tired of this

I think 2012 Shredder was somewhat like that:

A person who become ruthless once they taste jealousy. They don't care what others think of them; they just don't want anyone to be happier than themselves.

I was sort of thinking about this yesterday and... Shredder kinda turned evil for no real reason, didn't he? He's not even really that bothered by the love triangle thing since he's with Yoshi's clan long after she chose Yoshi, there is no real Nagi here either, no lust for great power, no more esoteric thing like awakening memories of a previous life or even him just being rotten from the start.

He just kinda... Found out his birth parents were... Probably... Evil and decided nothing about his actual life experience mattered in light of that and so he had to be evil as well. And again, it's not really the love triangle thing that made him continue to hate him, it's because the dumb bitch thought he would react in time to not hurt her, despite the chance of that being rather slim with it being an aerial attack with a bladed weapon...
... And... What the hell was up with her being there at all? She clearly runs off with baby Karai but then she is back for no clear reason and leaves the baby on the ground unattended...

The more I think about the main story of this show, the dumber I think it is. I kinda get why people like it, it's superficially dramatic in parts, but it's still really dumb.

Yeah, as much as I love “Tale of the Yokai” it has serious pacing issues and needed to be a 2-parter.

Saki definitely seemed to be raised with the knowledge of being adopted, so it’s not like that part was a big shock, but rather the specifics of his lineage? Kind of a weird take on Nature vs. Nurture.

As for Shen coming back, that also doesn’t make a ton of sense. She didn’t even seem to have very strong feelings for Yoshi.