Is there no such thing as "choice"? If there is, how is there?
 

https://img00.deviantart.net/b7dd/i/...en-d4anslb.jpg

If we accept that we as people are but the sum of our memories (the breadth of our lives, what has been absorbed into our brains from the people we've met, experiences we've had, books we've read, bad TV we've watched and everything else) -- and we kind of have to, don't we? -- is there really any actual "choice"? i.e., if I decide to go to the store at lunch time and grab a bag of Fun Yuns... is it not because basically the conscious sum of all of my memories is compelling me to do that?

I mean, you can throw things like brain chemistry and different chemical balances or imbalances within the body out there as possible variables... but even then, these aren't things under our control either.

Unless you're religious, of course. If you're religious the answer will be "Of course there's a choice, you have a soul." But if you don't subscribe to that...?

Isn’t this similar to the popular philosophical debates surrounding free will?

Yeah, I think this is essentially that.

And Andrew's right, people typically put everything either on God and religion or natural law and instinct, claiming that either divine destiny or the natural order of things determine the outcome of everything, but I think both of those points of view severely discount the impact that sheer random chance has on our universe. Everything that's ever happened is just part of a chain reacton that's been going on for an infinite leng th of time. Something happened before the Big Bang, we just can't understand it yet. Maybe the entire universe retracted itself back into a single point and then everything exploded outwards all over again, like a ball bouncing.

There is no choice. Only Chaos.

Which means our choices are irrelevant, since we can't predict how our actions will impact surrounding world in the long run and how actions of others, even random people, will impact our lives.
But we still can make them and hope that our plans and dreams won't be disrupted by random accidents. Still it's better alternative than any other idea.

Concept of "fate" is abhorrent and basically makes you every choice meaningless, since whatever, you do or don't do, you end with the same result.

And religions / religion-like views are just fairy tales for scared minds and basically present your whole life as a trial for psychopathic deities. Which is just a tool of manipulation of masses by priests and fanatics.

Modern science denies that there is any such thing as choice, as with anything else supernatural.

Despite this however, most scientists believe in choice because it is the foundation of Western Society.

There are many of our daily beliefs science goes against, but is a certain level of acceptance of those beliefs. If you believe in free will and God, you're good but if you believe in Creationism and Miracles, you have some explaining to do.

There is choice. Right now I decided to open up a can of Coca Cola instead of drinking some Orange Juice. Otherwise I would have picked up the Orange Juice.

10 minutes from now I'm going to log off to play a videogame, if I had no choice I couldn't do that.

Why wouldn't that just be because of who you are as a person (i.e., derived from your collective memories, colored by brain chemistry or what-have-you), after reading this thread, that is what made you do that?

What makes you certain?

It's not quite the same thing as "fate," though it basically is, for all intents and purposes. It's one of those things that's... best not to think about or dwell on too much, for obvious reasons.

Because I can do it or change my mind. There is no way some force of will already made every single one of your actions preordained.

In fact just because I read this thread I am now going to do something completely different than what I was planning.

Got any citations for this?

"Force of will" isn't quite right... it's basically the opposite as that.

Again, wouldn't that just be because of who you are as a person (i.e., derived from your collective memories, colored by brain chemistry or what-have-you), after reading this thread, that is what made you do that?

First of all, I am not of the beliefs I am describing. I am religious and believe in choice, the soul and creationism as you already know.

Second of all, You can always google the studies if you want to do more research.

Thirdly, Science is founded on the empirically observable. There is no room for anything that is not empirically observable and testable. It takes the assumptions that only the physically observable exists and does not dwelve into supernatural matters. So everything (including our minds) are governed by the natural laws cause/effect and we have no more choice than an ant driven by instinct, or even any more choice than a PLANT.

So that's a No then.
Okay.

Just to clarify ...
 

You did mention, multiple times in fact, that you tend to gorge down cans of soda.


Is ... that really all you drink?

I'm not trying to judge your habit, but how do you manage to drink soda every single day? Do you have a personal diet?

I knew a woman back at school who actually got scurvy from her diet of mostly junk food and soda.

reminds me of the cutscenes of an old Japanese PS1 game where some random guy does nothing but frink and rave about Pepsi as you go between levels.

It's a rather strange argument.

While, our desires depends on our brain chemistry, we can change those desires. And unless, our choices are somehow "pre-recorded" on some kind of schedule inside our minds, this idea sounds somewhat like its missing something.

Perhaps, the right answer would be - our choices depend on our brain chemistry, but our brain chemistry is fickle, which in turn makes our choices unpredictable.

Yeah, but that still falls under the realm of "things out of our control," i.e., from no independent "choice" of our own.

The physicalist would argue that the changing of our choices is merely the re-wiring of our brain chemistry, something that we have no control of as in science, we are the product of our brain chemistry and not the other way around.

One of the main arguements against free will in modern science is how electrical signals pulse through the human brain seconds before any conscious decision is even made.

If everything is deterministic and subject to cause and effect, why should we be any exception?

What kind of thread is this :lol:

Sure, memories are valuable but the reason we have them is because we made them. granted a lot of our experiences were a product of us being obliged to do them(going to school, for example), but still. And ofc a lot of our choices and preferences are influenced by our peers and society.

How about another food for thought: for all we know, every day of our life could be the very last one.

I occasionally drink an orange juice or a lemonade in order to avoid that. That being said, my diet does not consist of junk food and soda.

Again, citations.
I'm assuming you mean the pre-frontal association areas, but don't know for certain without citations.

I mean, it's not as though the brain is ever devoid of signals. Even if you're just sitting there your brain is still processing proprioception, sensory, and motor input.

What makes Science science is the ability to present receipts.
Where as just about any argument can be made using philosophical rhetoric.

What if we're all living the Truman Show? Or are a bunch of lab mice being observed by giant alien scientists? I can't be the only one who occasionally thinks that, right?

Peers and society are huge shaping things, of course. But those are still "things out of our control." There's a powderkeg of those every time one person that's the sum of their memories + their own unique brain chemistry bumps into another person that's the sum of their memories + unique brain chemistry. New variables are created, none of them voluntary, all of them giving us the illusion we're actually deciding or choosing anything of our own volition.

So that's a another No, then.

I just don't think it's wise for you to make scientific proclamations when it's clear you have no actual background in the sciences.

Its nice that you think that.

Isn't it just?!
I think so too.

:D

Here, this will help you moving forward:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=elsevier+neuroscience+free+will

Looks like the Op's been listening to some Sam Harris! Hahaha.
There's a great doc on the subject, covers both sides of the argument, that being Fred Wolf Leonardo and Sumac.



Seeing as choice is an illusion, then this debate must have a foregone conclusion.
Impressed the Mods haven't shut this down yet.

Okay, that was funny :lol: +10 points

Doesn't it? It's kind of best not to think about it too much. I think.

Why would they? It's not religious or political. It's not even social.

Free will is the cornerstone of most faiths. An absence of free will means we are not culpable for our actions, so things like voting, or criminality take on new meaning.

If free will is an illusion, and we accept that, then nihilism becomes the default, and the concept of both God and Society dissolve.

Can't be held accountable for your actions if those actions are predetermined.

Well, none of this this thinking is compatible with most/any faith-based religions. Because then there's a soul involved and why wouldn't there be free will, it's your invisible inner spirit or whatever. If you're a person "of Faith," there's really no point in even discussing this topic.

Just because a murderer is only a murderer because of the sum of his memories and experiences and brain chemical balances/imbalances arrived him at that point doesn't mean we want that guy anywhere but locked up and/or dead himself. We do.

All these pseudo-intellectual threads are boring. I miss talking about dumb **** and calling Doom a pedophile.

My point was, if the gift that was given by "God" was B.S., proven to be so, then it would definitely erode a persons faith. The entire premise center around the responsibility of the individual, and their choice to do right or wrong, as defined by the church (I'm clearly using Christianity as an example, but it could easily be refitted to other faiths). Therefore, the bad person, had no choice but to be bad. Taken further, God, being omnipotent and omniscient, set in motion the bad deed. Therefore, the choice was gods, not the persons, and God is not perfect.

Once you establish God's gift is a lie, the religious get their knickers in a knot...

Right on cue.


So if someone commits a crime, but had no choice in the matter, you feel we should punish them? I suppose, if that's your role, to inflict punishment, if that makes you feel good, I suppose you must.

The question is, to what extent do we live in a deterministic world.

What if, it's not all deterministic? What about probabilistic? What if we're still a slave, but to an unstable system? Quantum physics might have something to say about our consciousness, and why we make decisions at all.

I think it goes both ways: we can make choice, but it can be rendered meaningless by "things out of control".
Sometimes we are lucky and out choice is not disrupted.
So we go back to the Chaos.

On one hand, you can say that Chaos is not an absence of free will, but the very the nature of Chaos abhors free will, because, choice is representation of Order, i.e. it's something that should go from "point A to point B". In another words, conscious choice is a system - an opposite of Chaos.

On the other hand, what if not free will is representation of Chaos? Life itself is a Chaos incarnated, and our choices, whether they are dictated by our fickle brain chemistry or outside interference, a prolongation of it, since without choice there is no Chaos. Only system.

But essentially, I think, if you approach problem of choice from this positions, you come to the conclusion, that choice representation of both Chaos and Order. It originates from systems within our bodies, but at the same time, often informed by random desires and outside factors.

I like that you use science as your personal whore.

When it agrees with you - you all about science.
When it disagrees with you - it immediately "knows nothing".
Twice as hilarious that you still refuse to show your "credentials", which you use to bully others into accepting your point of view. :lol:

Are there some here experiencing an existential crisis here? These philosophical threads about choice, religious views, etc. are becoming too popular.

I know for a fact that I don't have an existensial crisis.

Just some users want to troll and bring some drama.

Looks like Tonya Harding's words from "I, Tonya" would be applicable here then for these philosophical threads, "...There's no such thing as truth. Everyone has their own truth." :lol:

How big was the bowl?

I know I definitely am but I try not to leak that into a message board about cartoons.

EDIT: See folks, THAT is a legitimate use of "leak"!