Did Kavanaugh do it?
 

Without getting political, speaking strictly about the act he allegedly did when he was 17... do you think he did it?

Secondly... how much do you remember about when you were 17? I couldn't even tell you who my teachers were.

I find the timing of the accusation suspect.
That said, I do tend to believe that this woman did live through something. I'm just not sure she is correct in her recollection.

I'm reminded of the innocence project and how many men it freed based on DNA evidence. Each of those men's accusers were also certain that the right man was behind bars. They were wrong. I have a suspicion that's the same situation here.

That third accuser has made similar accusations in the past and she was shown to be lying at that time.

The second accuser apparently just saw him flashing a crowd. Big deal.

So what are we left with? One person making a claim another making another. There is no actual evidence backing up Ford's claims, and while I believe her I can't trust her entirely because she is being used as a pawn in this entire situation.

I hit "probably not" before I saw "this whole thing is dumb." Those both cover my thoughts on the matter.

I mean, come on. We've got a sitting President in office with much more credible witnesses, history, and testimonies of sexual chicanery and misdeeds, so we've got a perfect comparison for Kavanaugh.

Dems just don't want the dude on the bench.

I agree with u

The sitting president? What about the past president Clinton who actually sexually harassed an intern to the point of having an affair with the intern.... Talk about calling the kettle black :lol:

Sadly, the right answer is not an option: No idea.

Either way though he certainly isn't coming across as anyone dignified enough for the lifelong position they want to vote him into.

Umm should't this be a political thread or at least in the sexual harassment thread.

After seeing his little temper tantrum when being interviewed by the senate Id say yes. Not to mention Trump Is jerry rigging the fbi Investigation so it favors Kavanaugh. Imagine him having that big of a tantrum when he is piss drunk.

It is neither of those things, so no.

A lot of people say that his "outburst" is "proof" of guilt, but I know damn well that's exactly how I'd react if I were falsely accused of the very thing he's accused of. These things aren't trivial accusations.

Of course, it very well could be that he's lashing out because he's guilty. We don't know. I just know if I were in his position, and I didn't do it, I'd personally spare no expense to see those who've falsely accused me be punished for trying to ruin my life. But then, I'm more than a little vindictive. Anyway, I understand his position.

I also know women who've been raped or otherwise assaulted, so I totally understand why most don't come forward, etc. etc. I'm not insensitive to their plight. Coming forward is still the right thing to do, though, even on the 1% chance you can stop the person who hurt you from hurting someone else. I know "It's hard", but doing the right thing is always harder than doing the opposite. A lot of these cases could have been more cut-and-dry if the accusers didn't wait 30-odd years to say something, and THEN only said something because the person they're accusing is suddenly notorious. They HAVE to be aware of how questionable that makes them, and their accusations, look.

Then you have people like Juanita Broaddrick, who WAS making the same accusations for decades, but was completely and repeatedly dismissed, despite lots of evidence, because... well, because people REALLY wanted to like Bill Clinton, even though he's pretty much definitely a violent rapist. We all know there were many others making these accusations against him and they haven't gone away. If even HALF the stories about Slick Willy are true, then he's far worse than Kavanaugh's accused of being. For the longest time, nobody cared at all. Everything from "Well, they all do stuff like that" to "The women probably loved it, he's charming." Pretty gross stuff.

So in one case, a guy was repeatedly accused WITH evidence, and people ignored or dismissed it because they found him charming and liked his politics. In this case, a guy is repeatedly accused with little-to-no evidence, yet a lot of people immediately assume that he's guilty because he's politically Conservative and "all victims should be believed". It's interesting.

I think definitely all people who claim to be victims of rape or assault should be HEARD. Not immediately believed just by showing up, because people lie, or get their facts from many years ago wrong, as others have stated. False accusations ruin lives, so all evidence must be weighted very carefully before anyone rushes to judgment.

In this case, I'm inclined to believe something happened to her but probably not who and how she's remembering it, and the timing of her coming forward is EXTREMELY suspect. This guy didn't show up yesterday, and she could have come forward at any point over the last two decades to try and keep him from working his way up the ladder. Only NOW, on the eve of the whole Supreme Court deal, she's finally ready to say something? Not when he was up for any one of the countless positions he's had in the interim? Timing is everything, and this just doesn't feel right.

If it somehow comes out that he's guilty, by all means nail him to the wall. But there's a reason why the initial reaction to any kind of He Said/She Said dispute without any evidence is skepticism. Like, it's good that women finally find their courage, even if it takes many years, but... what do you expect anyone to do NOW, exactly? These things need to be treated urgently when they're fresh, no matter how difficult it may be. Staying silent because "nobody would believe you" is still enabling the abuser, and it only makes people believe you even less later on.

I'unno. Personally, I think he didn't do it, but it would be great to know for sure because if he did do it, by no means should he hold the position. Without any proof, though, it's just a big stall tactic. We can't fall into the habit of demonizing people based on "They're guilty because I said so", no matter how horrific the accusations.

I voted "Probably not", because I don't think this situation is dumb. It's theater, but kind of important to where we are right now culturally, with victims of abuse coming forward with their stories, etc. We're still struggling as a group with where we fall between empathy for those who claim to be victims of abuse, and sorting through facts and evidence to see actual justice done. So no, not "dumb"; rather, very much a display of where we're at right now. It's important, even if a person generally doesn't care about politics. None of these issues are going away.

1). I'd think the president in office who appointed the mam would be a far more compelling comparison than a president from the 90's, but if you're so triggered that you have to respond by deflecting to Billy Boy Clinton who hasn't been politically relevant in years, sure pal. You do you.

2). Those allegations ALSO were far more reputable, with factual specific evidence and accounts, collaborating witnesses, and far more easily proven. Or, for a THIRD more compelling comparison, Harvey Weinstein! Not even a President or a player in politics at all, so my choice of him as an example won't offend anybody!

That was a FAKE narrative from the left. They have total autonomy to investigate Kavanaugh and can speak to whoever they want.

Exceot that he keeps firing everyone in the organization who is even remotely "against" him. Kind of blows your argument out of the water.

Also, for some truly eye-opening info, read Unhinged. Even just skimming through it gave me some real pause regarding both T-rump and anyone he chooses to hire.

Name one FBI official he's fired since this 7th FBI investigation of Kavanaugh began. Or does your argument hinge on... FBI agents being afraid of being fired, so maybe they will misreport? Nonsense.

Well I guess it depends. How many FBI directors and staff has he gone through since the election? Not so much with Kavanaugh, but with Russia, the porn star scaandal, and everything else. Granted they were not all "fired" per se, but being forced to resign amounts to the same thing. And yes, fear of consequences to their own jobs has a lot to do with it. When his inner circle has threatened individuals with ruin of careers, prosecution, and worse, one has to wonder how accurate such an investigation will be.

After reading some of the stuff about this case, it looks like it can be ideological attack on the conservative candidate.

Whether he did or not, I leave it up to judges, but I hope he is not guilty.

Stuff like this brings out the mouth-breathers in society, man. Just a head's up that when I refer to "you", I don't mean ANDREW. Instead I am illustrating that sort of ubiquitous "you" for whoever reads this.

01) Because someone gets angry, it doesn't mean that they are guilty. To say, think or feel "well now I think he's guilty because of how he got mad" is making a judgement from very poor mental algebra that isn't cogent at all. This is a society's mouth-breather reaction.

02) We now live in a society where someone can simply say something about you, and there will be a population who arbitrarily crucifies the accused. The mental algebra of those people goes "well I don't think it would be said if it wasn't true". This is either ignorance, or they are simply lying as a manipulation. Society's mouth-breather reaction.

03) Subscribing to a simple "did he do it, yes or no" mentality is complete nonsense when it comes to many "crimes" of social justice. For those who subscribe to this zero-grey-area mentality, consider when it will be your turn to field some kind of accusation. Or, for any millenials here, consider a situation where someone cites their "feels" about something you did to them, and you are mired in a social-justice situation where you respond, saying "I didn't do that", yet some other mouth breather responds saying "well [he/she] feels you did...."

This is a complete kangaroo court. In the Doctor's statement, she says publicly:
"I thought he might kill me" -but he didn't-
"I thought he was going to rape me" -buuuuuut he didn't-
"I wanted a second door put on my house" -an example of the good Doctor's maladjustment, probably over a lot more things than a high school "drinking party with boys"-
-20 minutes of her opening statement, of which only about 3 minutes was the "event" and the remainder was smokescreen for the mouthbreathers of society.
"I received death threats". The mouthbreathers hear this and say that Kavanaugh was guilty. They go "awwwwww that's terrible" - and it is terrible. But Kavanaugh didn't issue her death threats. But the mouth-breathers will hear that statement and draw conclusions from it.

For everyone here: we need equality. We need to continue to be good to each other. We need to pursue each other without threat, but also without reciprocating by threat. Guys - don't force yourself on a girl. Girls - don't act so self-important that you exaggerate some guy's actions into something they were not. See? It's simple! But we also need to stop empowering people who respond to life like children. For example, these are the people who cry at jobs when they aren't catered to, make accusations of being wronged far beyond the threshold of truth, look for vengeance because of someone else's success, or most pathetically sabotage someone else because of "hurt feelings".

The culture in the U.S. is coming to a head of mania. It's happened before - it was called "the Salem Witch Trials". And it's been happening again for years now, except that it's a public disgrace on national television right now.

And with the Salem Witch Trial thing in mind, combine that thought with the knowledge that most of the people "you" may talk to for opinions might not have even watched the good Doctor's 18 or so minute opening argument. Another example of social justice - people passing judgement on situations that they know nothing about but yet get on board with.

For the "you" that is the person or people I've just described (deep down, those of you here will know who you are, although you'll never cop to it), I hope I see the day you are accused because of someone's "feels" where others in society who think like you now turn on you - the kangaroo court - and the witch hunt is on your shoulders.

Anyone read the signed statement from Ford's ex stating that she has a working knowledge of lie detectors and was coaching a friend on how to 'beat' them? She's full of **** and I don't believe her anymore.

All this #metoo hysteria is going to come back around and no one is going to believe women anymore even when something bad does happen to them.

Senator Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., top Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, said that the report "looks to be a product of an incomplete investigation that was limited perhaps by the White House, I don't know."

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/con...w-info-n916601

Yet the investigation was completed more than a full day early? Weird. Why would the FBI give up the investigation over a day early if there was more to investigate? Sounds like "I'm really angry!"

Everything else I'm seeing says the report failed to corroborate anything Ford was saying.

Most of the people she claimed were aware of this have come forward and said they don't remember anything like this happening. She's lying. I really wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt, but all of this evidence suggests she's lying.

If you actually read the article you would know she was mad that the FBI didn't interview Kavanaugh or accuser Christine Blasey Ford about the allegations.

Also can I say how dumb it is the poll has two answers for no

Isn't that what the hearing was for? To get their testimony on the event? Wasn't the FBI investigation mainly to interview those not questioned before the committee?

Yes.

People are like, "B-b-but they didn't talk to Ford some more, or even Kavanaugh!" Why would they? They already testified before the committee. The investigation’s purpose was to see if there was any credibility to the accusations. That’s it.

And why would they want an interview? Did she not get her story out? Did she want to add/change some things? Did she remember even more after the hearing? How would a yes to any of that do anything but damage Ford’s credibility even more?

Except its not really the same thing as an interview and I'm pretty sure the FBI are better at find information than a commitee of senators, it makes no sense to have the FBI investigate the scandal and not interview the primary participates.

Situations like this are lousy because everyone decides right at the jump whether someone is guilty or not, and nothing anyone says or does will ever convince them. Like if you simply say, "Well, this sounds a lot like He Said/She Said, without a whole lot of evidence," you're accused of being insensitive rather than, y'know, sensible.

"WHY would anyone make up a story like that?" I'unno, because they do? It happens every day. Saying over and over again that something happened only goes so far; at some point, you just have to say, "Well, we have literally all the information we're going to get on this subject" and move on.

Now, as I've said, if something happened and she didn't wait 30 years to say anything... MAYBE something could have been done. Way too late now, and without anything but words as "proof", it really just comes off as completely political.

This is why no matter how hard it is, people who've been abused HAVE to find a way to speak up AT THE TIME. Taking time to cope with it on your own "Because nobody would believe you" only enables a criminal to repeat offend, and then when you do speak up after a few decades nobody's going to believe you by then anyway.

It's totally different, but my parents were often physically abusive. Nobody in my family would believe me, or they'd tell me I "deserved" it. Obviously that was demoralizing, but it never stopped me from speaking out about it. To this day, there's still some relatives I don't get along with, because they weren't there to see it and thus think I was just a spoiled brat making up stories. I get it. It's tough when people don't believe you, or make you think it's your fault.

In those situations, you have to find your inner strength, remind yourself that you're right and they're wrong, and never compromise or back down. Suffering in silence is exactly how abuse is allowed to repeat and spread. I know; "Just Get Tougher!" But seriously... you have to. What all these women are doing, staying silent forever and then "bravely" coming forward to play the victim card? It's noble to a point but it completely doesn't work. It doesn't prevent more abuse and it doesn't make them any less victims; in fact, it reinforces their victim status, because they let someone bully them into silence about something they absolutely shouldn't have been silent about.

Speaking out about being abused never got me a damn thing but scorn and ridicule, so believe me, I know it's tough. But doing The Right Thing is always The Right Thing even if people tell you it's not, even if it seems like it's pointless. It's not pointless, because things like "Truth" and "Integrity" still matter.

If Kavanaugh is guilty, and he gets away with it, it's sadly Ford's own fault, because her decades of silence shattered her credibility completely and made any wrongdoing 100% impossible to prove. It's harsh, but it's the truth. Her chance to be a hero came and went a long time ago; now she's just playing politics.

If there were a 30 year old police report talking about what he had done I would still believe her, but with all the evidence that's pretty much showing she's a liar and manipulator I can't how ANYONE can agree with her.

No this is about power. The left is losing theirs because they went crazy. It's that simple.

Get ready for lots of tears, furious anger, and Natalie Portman-in-the-Star-Wars-Prequels memes.

The thing is, a person hears an accusation of a terrible crime, and their empathy kicks in. They think, "God, if that had ever happened to me...!" and it affects them, especially if they're a woman and it DID happen to them. They start thinking with emotion rather than logic, and suddenly, accusations become fact, and to be Accused is the same as being Guilty, despite our entire system being set up specifically so that DOESN'T become the standard.

We all want to believe that people are inherently decent and good - well, MOST people; I kinda gave up on that sh*t a long time ago - so we say, "Well, WHY would anyone lie about something like that?" Lots of reasons. Attention, faulty memory, even payola is never totally out of the question. Maybe stuff happened, but it wasn't who the person claims it was, and they genuinely can't remember because so many years have passed? Or maybe they just want to be on TV and be called a hero. People aren't as decent and pure as some want to believe, and lots of women completely fabricate just these kinds of stories.

That doesn't mean SHE'S lying - although as you said, it's not looking good for her story - but it does mean that we can't just believe any person who says, "This happened, and you have to believe me because I say so, or else you're a monster."

I can't really call it. Either the Democrats found a leftist so unhinged that they figured they could use her for their own ends (and there's no shortage of them), or more likely, as a leftist activist she was willing to risk becoming a martyr for the cause by perjuring herself. Take one for the team.

I generally believe she's telling a version of the truth, though. I just don't think Kavanaugh was there in the actual truth.

you boys can discuss 'til you're blue whether or not this former drunken fratboy assaulted Ford, but he sure didn't handle the situation well and clearly isn't fit with his temperamental on the supreme court. But we all know why the republicans want him in despite by now he shouldn't even be touched with a 10' long pole dunked in holy water and Tabasco sauce by anyone that have a political career.

As I said, to me the reaction was entirely consistent with the nature of the accusation. Especially if he's innocent.

We'll NEVER know if he's truly innocent or not, unfortunately, but I've often been accused of many things I didn't say or do, so I empathize. I saw nothing out of line; "Your accusations could very well ruin my life, and I'm quite upset about that" doesn't tend to come out of one's mouth very softly or gently with stuff like this. I'd truly like to see anyone keep their cool in that kind of situation.

Easy to say he's out of bounds from over here, but when it's your reputation and livelihood on the line... whole different game. Trust me.

The best was when my Dad's girlfriend assaulted my wife, then me, and in the kerfluffle she hit her head on a door frame and charged me with assault. Now the burden's on me to stand up in court and convince them, "No, your honor, I didn't 'beat her up', she got drunk, started attacking people, and hurt herself." Which was the Biblical truth.

I fought it as best I could, and it got argued down, but I still had to plead "Guilty With An Excuse" and pay a hefty fine, because it was a male/female violence situation and by default they believe the woman, even when that woman is a worthless, dishonest, drunken, pill-popping, lying wretch.

I paid the fine, but I still get pissed about it, because I didn't do anything wrong. I was punished because I was accused by a woman, clean and simple. She lied, and I paid for it. I could have gone to jail over it. Not a small thing.

Anyways, she's dead. :lol: But I'm tellin' ya, being unjustly accused sucks royally and anyone is perfectly within their rights to respond to accusations with anger if those accusations are false.

Exactly... For a man who is supposedly innocent some of his responses were unnecessarily strange and not showing a temperament suited to the position.

Not even the emotional parts, but responses like “Yeah, and I’m curious if you have” when he was the one testifying, not the woman questioning him. Rude and pompous much? Who does that.

Question of guilt aside, some folks don't seem very good at Devil's Advocate. Just sayin'.

I want to see some people's reactions if and when they're accused of something as horrific as this. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, you're not gonna be calm or polite about it.

((Shrug))

Yeah, Kavanaugh getting pissed and lippy is 100% how I'd be reacting. Hell, I'd probably be close to throwing some punches.

Now, Kavanaugh refusing to disagree with Trump's ridiculous statement about "not being able to indict a sitting President" or whatever that BS is... THAT'S what I have a problem with. That sh!t is far too Nixon for my taste.

Looking up at the TV, it looks like he's gonna be confirmed, so it's all about to be moot, anyway.

I'll say that I *hope* he's innocent, given the circumstances. But there was never gonna be any way to prove it NOW, anyway. So, if he's guilty, it's really only Ford's fault for not doing anything at all to support her accusations, going back several decades.

Teachable moment, kids. Don't let things linger. I've heard all the excuses, and while I empathize, they don't wash. SAY something and DO something, or else... well, you see.

I agree. It'll all be moot. If he IS guilty, I don't think they did a very good job of proving it or going about the investigation.

But politics is a cesspool. Has been longer than I've been around, innocent naive youngling that I am.

I also kinda think that the Democrats lost all credibility on these sorts of issues in the 90s, what with You-Know-Who and... y'know... all the rapes that he absolutely did and got away with, and how nobody cared because he could play the Saxomophone.

You can't look the other way on sh*t like that for so long, and then suddenly do a 180 and act like this is stuff you absolutely care about and that you truly want justice done. Just doesn't work.

There’s a reason why Ramirez, Ford and Swetnick didn’t come out about Brett until now and this very for thread shows it oh so very nicely. *shrug*

:roll:

At the end of the day he didn't even rape anyone. At most he held her down laughed at her, got up and walked out of the room. Did he penetrate her in at all? No. You do realize that - AT MOST - he committed misdemeanor assault.