Looking back, was it a good idea to make April and Casey as teenagers?
 

What do you think?

While I don't think that these versions of April and Casey are the best versions, and I'd much prefer them written as adults, I don't think that writing them as teenagers was a bad idea and I quite like the unique take on them.

I do think they were much better written as teenagers earlier on though, before April's psychic powers were touched upon and Casey Jones showed much more promise.

Nah. Seemed pointless outside of "shipping" April with Donnie, which was a bad idea all around and executed poorly.

I feel that a change that drastic should justify itself, and I don't feel that it did.

I'm going to go with "no".


Agreeing with the aspect on it being pure shipbait for the first part, but then the rest of it comes down to shifting the turtle-April relationship too much. Same with Casey.

Now, I stand by 2012 Casey being a pretty garbage character as a whole, but as teenagers (with superpowers that the Kraang/Utroms didn't have even though April was supposedly half Kraang/Utrom) they were denied quite a bit of character growth that would have made more sense with them as adult characters. Maybe even for the turtles too.

It felt to me like they fell in love with the idea and decided to run with it before they actually had any idea for how it would pay off in any meaningful way. And then they just didn't bother trying to come up with one, and it became "Change For Change's Sake" when it could have actually had a point.

"Changes for the sake of change with no meaningful payoff, but could have had a point"

A perfect description for every aspect of the 2012 show.

Yeah, I didn't love it a whole lot. :lol:

It was an excellent idea for this universe because the Turtles were written as actual 15 year olds and looked younger, rather than in every other universe where they act and look like 20-25 year olds when they're supposed to be only 15 at the start of the story.

Plus whenever you make April older you have the problem of how to give her a full time job but have her involved with the TMNT's adventures. Obviously the original cartoon came up with the reporter angle to keep her involved in danger, but in every other universe they generally have trouble keeping April involved with the Turtles besides making her a "tech geek" and even then she just becomes a female Donatello anyway. Or just a love interest for Casey.

I liked that they tried it and had the turtle's friends be in their age group for a change, so a yes for me in relation to this show.

I also forgot to mention Karai.

I thought she was handled much better as a teenager than the other version of Karai whom Is more similar to her (2003).

Except they should never be that, really. Since whenever someone says that, they actually mean "written as human 15 year-olds." And that's always seemed dumb to me.

Because they're pretty freaking far from that. They aren't part of our society or have had remotely equivalent upbringings. It'd be like watching a reality show about indigenous people on some island cut off from the world... and being upset that the teenagers there aren't acting like your average teenagers at Sweet Valley High down the street.

For the thread topic I vote no. April only appears to have been made a teenager so that Donatello could gawk at her, which seems a pretty big perversion of the intent of the April O'Neil character and her relation to the Turtles themselves (at first a den mother, then an older sister). And Casey was only de-aged to follow suit, and create some kind of love triangle.

Obviously I'm happy with this character and the angle worked for me but to be fair by the end of the show she could have been a teen or a very young adult in her role.
Being a teen will have an impact on the roles, however, a lot of weather or not we liked them as a whole isn't just about how old they are. Some of the issues I see on here are more about what was done with the character.

I'd have had zero problem with Karai if her name had been "Pimiko."

It's pretty offensive to the source material to take a character that had zero familial connection to Yoshi and Saki (and conversely was Saki's boss) and make her a daughter to them BOTH.

I kind of ambivalent to this idea.

It was new take on the characters and the story, which I always approve (yes, I do love "change for the sake of change"), but I didn't feel it was executed very well. April was not a very interesting character in the show and Casey was even less than that.

I'll start off with an exchange between Leonardo and Splinter from the recent Teenage mutant ninja Turtles comic book series "Desperate Measures" in which the former vents his frustration about having to deal with a team consisting of teenagers.

Leonardo: It's just - There's so many bad things going on and ALL they want to do argue with each other and goof around. I TRY to get them to focus, to take all of this seriously and they just BLOW ME OFF at every turn. Raph wants to HUNKER DOWN, Mikey wants to be a SUPERHERO and Donnie's got his HEAD BURIED in his gadgets 24/7. They're driving me CRAZY!
As he finishes his rant, Leonardo notices that Splinter is grinning.
Leonardo: It... It's NOT FUNNY Father!
Splinter: I am not laughing my son.
Leonardo: But you're GRINNING!
Splinter: Yes, yes, I AM doing that. Forgive me Leonardo, my amusement is not to be insensitive. I am just happy to know that my Teenaged boys are STILL teenaged boys even when they are away from me.

I can't speak for others but I think having the "Teenage" aspect of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles being the main focus of the 2012 series was a master stroke because as others pointed out, in other versions of the show (The 2003 series, awesome as it was, being the most guilty of this) the turtles weren't behaving like teens.

The skating scene and the sneaking out of the lair when Splinter isn't watching in "I think his name is Baxter Stockman" is one of the best examples of the Turtles behaving like common hoodlum teenage boys.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20171129050004
"So you wouldn't object to a little RANDORI?"

The Turtles got their human side from either Splinter or the clerk of the pet store where they were bought, there might have been several humans who touched them before their mutation, which also explains why they all developed into such different personalities.

One thing about boys in their teens is that those are the days when they start to discover the opposite gender, so with an incarnation of the TMNT where they are, well...TEENS, it made good sense to make the main female characters (April, Karai, Renet) teens too.

I must say though that of all the shippings here, Karai and Leonardo was the most natural, the most authentic, that feeling of "I shouldn't be as infatuated with her because I know she's bad news but I AM!" is something we all experienced during our own teen years. As was their bantering, for that matter. If Leonardo is meant to be the oldest brother of the Turtles, Karai was written in as somebody who clearly is older than April, she still has that teenage rebellion going on but with a sense of "I've been around, I know what I'm talking about." kind of deal that teens who are on the edge of seventeen are.

Now take the scene in which Leo tells April about Karai, at first she's "Oh I'm so glad for you." and when he admits that Karai is in the Foot Clan, she slaps him in the face and declares him crazy. Which again is a very authentic teenage thing to do, teen girls can be ruthless about other teen girls after all.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20130218050423
"SHE'S IN THE FOOT CLAN!"

How would that episode have been if April had been in her twenties?

So I have no issue with a Teenage April, okay she wasn't the big sister type she was in previous versions, she also wasn't the LITTLE sister her current counterpart is now.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20180201091435

So far as how teenage like the TMNT, this could have or may well have had it's own thread in the past?

I mean I agree with Andrew's points that they are not and nor have they lived the lives of a regular human teen. That being said, 'teenage' is in the title, giving it an emphasis, if we don't expect them to have a teen aspect, should it be there? Course going back again to the other side of the argument, it depends what degree of teen was intended? I don't know.
Also what we expect or will accept can depend on the type of version and audience. I mean here though they are still mutants in the sewers who are trained as Ninjas' they are raised a little differently to say Mirage, from what I read/hear, fair to say?

The turtles have access to the media. They know about Humans and want to be like regular teenagers. However, Humankind would see them as monsters.

Pretty much all of this. Growing up isolated from the rest of the world for 15 years, with maybe the only real sight and knowledge of the surface coming from what they could find in the sewer, they wouldn't act anything like an 'Average' teenager (what even counts as average or normal anymore?) would.

Also, being raised as Ninjas for years (Mirage Comics stated it was 13 years at the beginning, which means they begun training at 2) would add a high level of discipline and a grown up factor.

Realistically, the TMNT wouldn't act like Humans, let alone Teenagers

But if Splinter starts as Hamato Yoshi, they could definately act like Humans.

Well, the ratio of the mutation isn't fity-fifty, it's more 20% of the original DNA and the 80% of the invading species. Which makes that the turtles are more human than they are turtle.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20170817011024
The Turtles as infants in "Lone rat and Cubs" showing that they have gotten human body proportions.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20170817014201
The Turtles as little kids in "Lone rat and Cubs" showing more of their humanity, in having the ability to walk upright and the ability to speak, note also that despite their reptile ancestry, none has scaly skin.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20170202205746
Leonardo in "Invasion" the steam coming from his mouth showing another human trait: he's warm blooded, which is also how Splinter could keep them underground for 15 years, real life Turtles, as do all reptiles need to warm up in the sun in order to stay alive.

And having mentioned Splinter.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20140923135502
Hamato Yoshi's upbringing of the Turtles as if they were just normal human boys makes sense because he was human himself and doesn't know better.

I agree with this. If Splinter was Hamato Yoshi (Or Lou Jitsu) and/or a loving father, the Turtles would act more akin to human teenagers. Plus they have all sorts of media to influence them.

I probably would like the idea if better executed. But I felt they never did that. April was fine at first but got worse later on and Casey was super annoying. Though to be fair, she's better than Rise April.

Pretty much these.

The main reason the Nick Producers wanted April as a contemporary was because it would have been weird to have a grown woman hanging out with a bunch of teenagers.


I liked the idea of having April as a teenager, but at the same time aside from having her as a love interest for Donnie they didn't seem to know what to do with her beyond that.

For Donnie's interests in her coming off as creepy, I can forgive that because it was explicitly stated April was the first human girl he has ever met. For the past 15 years before the story began, he has only been exposed to an all-male society. The only exposure to females any of the Turtles would have had would be from TV, Comic books, and magazines which wouldn't really give an accurate account of how to interact with a member of the opposite gender, let understand how females act. After all, every female character in shows and comic books are typically based around centralized tropes that are often stereotypical. Such as girls are fragile flowers that need to be protected, catty chicks who are only interested in fashion, boys, and fun. Or they are oversexualized gold digging bombshells that use their female wiles to get men to submit to their desires.

And the way Donnie does express himself around April does mature over the time he gets to know her. Even towards the end of the series he has pretty much stepped aside and lets April decide which of her two suitors she wants. Though the Power Inside Her episode does suggest April has chosen Donnie or at the very least the history he had with her had a huge influence in helping her break free of the crystal's influence.

All in all the only thing the Turtles would truly understand is that females are different in ways they don't truly understand

Again they could have gone more into more aspects such as the having April living with the Turtles following Karai's vendetta. Since this would be the first time ever a girl would actually be living with them. They are used to April hanging out in the lair with them and maybe spending the night on occasion.

But actually living with them is another thing entirely. So it would be just as awkward for them as it is for her. Now I'm not saying they do anything stereotypical boys would do such as checking out April in the shower.

Still, they could have had other adult-centric gaffes such as for example Mikey is used to walking in on his brothers

1. he knows them.
2. they don't have an actual need for privacy in the way humans do.

I can see Donnie offering up his room to her because he's trying to be a gentleman, but also because he more often then not sleeps in the lab anyway. So it would make the most sense to have him offer her that space.

Mikey is the sort of Turtle who would burst into the room to tell April good morning and catch her at an inopportune moment. It's something that could be completely done off-screen as well, such as may be having two or three of the other Turtles talking somewhere in the Lair. Then offscreen they hear Mikey cheerfully shout "Good Morning, April!" Followed by April screaming and yelling "MIKEY, DO YOU MIND!?"


They sort of imply that she does want another human friend who knows the Turtles so she has someone she can talk to about them. Casey, of course, fills this role. That was part of her reaction when Leo was telling her that he had met a girl. April at first is happy for him for finding a girl he likes and also she is interested in knowing who this person is because it would give her another female to commiserate with about their shelled friends. When Leo admits she's a member of the foot clan April is immediately turned off and says "Stay away from her because she's part of the Foot Clan." Even when Karai is finally on the good side and both females do work well as a team, they still aren't buddy-buddy.

Even the way April glowers at Karai at the end of "Broken Foot" screams "If Donnie or any of the turtles are hurt or worse because of you again. I will end you."

The psychic powers were an interesting aspect. During season one I had a theory that April was actually a Neutrino (Since they are a humanoid race from Dimension X and they do have psychic powers as baby's for some reason) In the 87 series, the King and Queen of the Neutrino's sent their baby Princess Tribble to the Turtles so they can protect her. And one of the nicknames Karai has for April is Princess because everything seems to revolve around her. While Donnie early on also does call April his sweet princess on occasion because he feels she is someone he must protect.

This would be a plausible reason as to why she has psychic powers, and why the Kraang desperately wanted to find her. April could have been the result of paring with Dr. O'Neil and a neutrino woman (which would also explain the absence and/or death of April's mother). The Kraang wanted April because since she is a cross breed to the two dimensions she would be able to facilitate the Kraang being able to take over the earth. Either that or her existence gives hope to the other Neutrino of Dimension X (particularly if her mother was Princess Tribble or maybe a nameless Queen of the Neutrinos.)so her capture would naturally crush their Spirits.

Unfortunatly, the going reason for April having psychic powers was because she was a human/kraang hybrid. Which would have been interesting, but the narative basicly forgets about this aspect of her character, or just completely brushes it aside and doesn't bring it up again.

And yet, they figured that pushing a "love interest" angle between a teenage human female and a teenage mutant turtle was just the right amount of "weird". They couldn't figure a way to make Option 1 make sense - even though literally everyone else who ever handled the franchise hasn't had any problems with it - but they found nothing questionable about Option 2, and genuinely thought it was a better way to go.

It is what it is, but people's priorities always crack me up. Especially the way they over-think some things while barely putting any thought into other things. It's very interesting.

Over-Thinking: "We can't have April hang out with the Turtles if she's older than them, it's weird. Let's make them the same age."

Not-Enough-Thinking: "So how are we gonna tie up this 'romance' subplot with April and Donnie? Y'know... since we made a Big Huge Deal about it and everything." "Eh, I'unno. Do a bunch of movie parodies and hope everyone forgets about it?" "...Y'know, fine." :trazz:

I've also never understood the whole "making April younger so that it'd make sense for her to hang out with teen-aged turtles" thing. It was never a problem nor did it seem odd in previous incarnations. I've never once read a "April is a bit too old to have 4 teenagers as her closest friends!" criticism in my life. That was never an issue people had with previous TMNT incarnations. Plus, the turtles weren't THAT much younger than April in those incarnations anyway. In the FW series, the Turtles seem to be about 17-19 or so, if I had to guess. And April was, if I remember, about 26-28 years old? Even if she was considerably older than them, it's not like she was babysitting them. Remember they were teenagers raised in the sewers as ninjas who saved the world from Shredder and other bad guys frequently. They weren't some dumb high school kids. Plus, April also had Irma as a friend. And who else was there for her to befriend? Vernon and Brune? Who'd want those guys as friends? :lol:

In the 2k3 series, April was even younger. She was 23 years old. And in that series, the Turtles also were not younger than 16-17 years old. Leonardo and Donatello didn't exactly strike me as immature. Plus, April had Casey as well. Not to mention she didn't appear as frequently as she did in the FW series.

In Mirage the Turtles are basically teenagers in name and age only. They're way more mature than human teenagers, due to the circumstances and environment in that they were raised, so it never looked like to me that the age gap between them and April was noticeable.

Or they could have capitalized on it in some ways. For example, there was that love triangle between Hamato Yoshi and Oroku Saki over Tang Shen.

The love triangle between Donatello and Casey over April mirrored this same issue. However, it wasn't explicit in how it mirrored it. There were times where it was obvious what roles Donnie and Casey played, with Donnie being Yoshi and Casey being Saki. But then there were some episodes where the two switched roles and Donnie became Oroku Saki and Casey became Hamato Yoshi.

If they were going to make the love triangle with Capritello as prominent as they were depicting it. They could have had other characters noticing what the triangle was reflecting. We do have moments where Raph is telling Donnie that April is not going to like him in the way she wants. And we do have a couple of times where Leo does prevent Donnie and April from being teamed up or preventing April from coming with them because he didn't want Donnie to be distracted from what needed doing. But those are general brother concerns.

There is so much more that could have been done regarding all this, such as maybe Leo pulling Donnie aside and saying he isn't liking how obsessed he's become with April and he feels it's leading him down a dangerous path that would only destroy him and everything he stands for. Donnie, of course, brushes aside he brothers concerns or maybe throws his brother's obsession with Karai back at him. Then naturally there is a situation where he lets his obsession with April get the better of him. At the last moment, Donnie realizes what he is becoming and is able to stop himself in time.

Or maybe have the Shredder learn of the Triangle and uses it to sew discord between the Turtles and their human companions by poisoning Casey's mind into believing that if he lets the Turtle win April, then that would be a mistake he would regret the rest of his life. If he wants April to himself, he needs to eliminate Donatello for good. Casey at first resists, but the fear that April would choose Donnie only plagues his mind until finally he and Donnie violently clash during a huge battle. When Casey has Donnie at his mercy, the Shredder goads him into finishing it. Casey, realizes what he is doing and then turns to the Shredder and says "The biggest mistake I would regret for the rest of my life is that I ever listened to you."


The only time any aspect of the previous triangle was addressed at all was the moment was the "Learn to like falling down" lesson. This was done to teach Donatello that he couldn't force April to like him back. However, it was also pointed out that Oroku Saki let his jealousy over the fact that Tang Shen had chosen Hamato Yoshi consume him. So in a way, he was making sure Donnie didn't fall down the same path his former friend had.

As much I loved the serious aspects of the 2012 show, I don't think I would ever be able to take that kind of situation seriously at all.

I can't seriously imagine the Shredder saying something like:

"And Now, Casey Jones, eliminate the turtle before he steals Miss O'Neil from your hands."

Might work as some sort of wacky dream sequence though.

He could tell Casey his twisted version of how Tang Shen died. Perhaps the exchange goes this way.

Shredder: Did Splinter ever tell you about what happened to Tang Shen?

Casey: The turtles said he lost his wife and child in a fire.

Shredder: That is the story he tells his sons, but the real truth is that Tang Shen was my beloved. He poisoned her mind and made her believe that he was her true love, and when I came to rescue her he made her take the blow that was meant for him. She was lost to both of us that horrible night, all because he couldn't accept that Tang Shen truly belongs to me. The same fate belongs to April O'Neil...that is unless you do something about it.

Casey: What do ya mean?

Shredder: The Turtle who desires her is a son of that rat...Hamato Yoshi. He has been raised since the day he was mutated to believe the lies his rodent father has taught him, he would do anything to have her by his side.

Casey: That doesn't sound like the Donnie I know.

Shredder: The one called Donatello is not to be trusted, and he will suffer the same fate as his brothers for the evil that Splinter has done. If he succeeds in convincing O'Neil to love him, she will die alongside him. However, if you love her, save her from him.

Teen April and Casey are great ideas, the problem is the show didn't use that properly and instead gave April some weird ass psychic powers for now reason. You know what you do when you have a teen April? You give her teenage problems, she needs to come up with excuses to leave the house, go to school, have friends, make dumb teenage decisions etc. Instead they wasted that away.

Instead of having her being Human–Kraang hybrid, make her know something (like being skilled in calculation) the Kraang need to know, so they could be after her for that.

Casey was one of the main reasons I stopped watching the 2012 show. Definitely my least favorite version of the character

You've missed a lot of awesome episodes if that's your sole reason for that.

It's ONE of my main reasons. I have a lot of reasons I stopped watching

I need an option between yes and no.

Not overly big on it, but I didn't mind 2012 doing it too much, maybe only when they got a little too involved at times or Casey was annoying, otherwise it was an interesting take for the one series, but I'm ready to see them be adults again. (And Turtles that seem/act older again as well.) But no... along comes 'Rise.' Hopefully next time...

The new pop psych theory going around is, "Kids are incapable of relating to characters who are older than them, because they instinctively see anyone older as an 'authority figure' - parent, teacher, etc. - and kids don't like authority figures, so if we want to make a character popular (and of course, sell a toy) they have to be close to the same age as the target audience."

So I expect they'll be same-ish in age for a long time, at least in the cartoons. Movies, who knows. Although the last movie series had April and Casey as adults, and them being teens hasn't been done in live action yet and the youngest kids are probably wondering why not, so playing the odds, I'd guess the reboot will have them as teens to promote better synergy with the cartoons.

So yeah, buckle up. Adult April and Casey are going in the box for a while.

Which is a shame, considering in our day an older character you liked as a kid might be one you looked up to. Definitely not an unrelatable authority figure.

So now everyone is supposed to be a would-be friend and zero role models...? No wonder so many are so screwy these days.

As Iron Sheik would say... "Ex-ZACK-ly, baba! A-to-the Z!"

.....There'd also be a "F*** the Hollywood blonde jabroni Hulk Hogan" in there somewhere, but that's not really relevant to this particular conversation. But it is, indeed, what he would say.

Anyway, yeah, you're correct.

It isn't exactly new. I mean superheroes have had kid sidekicks forever.

If you look at the things your parents and grandparents complained about are exactly the same as people complaining now. "Back in my time...", as people get older they lose touch of the real world and cling to the one they knew or think things were somewhat different.

I guess Nickelodeon wanted teenage April O'Neil and Casey Jones because the turtles are teenagers.

So... kids don't like Batman or other adult superheroes? Or pro wrestlers?

I mean, don't get me wrong, ofc there large amount of young protagonists in media aimed at kids/teenagers exists for a reason, but when I was a kid I recall liking pro wrestlers and many other kids I knew liking Batman or another adult superhero. So this whole idea that kids automatically cannot relate to or like adult characters seems flawed.