Aren't the Turtles kinda weak?
 

Y'know, it seems every other mutant animal, either because the animal is already viscous as is, or in Bebop and Rocksteady's case, they were fighters as humans beforehand, but it always seems most mutants are already dangerous powerhouses, other than the Turtles themselves.

There are so many animals that when mutated use their animalistic abilities, like having sharp claws, sharp teeth, in the case of mutant birds, the ability to fly, and so forth. But the Turtles themselves are basically just green humans with shells. I guess the only 'extra powers' they get is their shell can protect them from impact that would normally break an ordinary person's back. Though I guess they'd also be natural born swimmers.

Like for example, Groundchuck and Dirtbag can already mess ish up, hell, Slash, a fellow turtle is a lethal powerhouse... but the Turtles ONLY get by because they were trained in Ninjitsu. Like if the Turtles belonged to some ordinary guy that did not happen to be a ninja master... they'd be weak as all hell.

It just seemed the Turtles had to train for years to learn to fight while someone like Leatherhead was already a threat since day one.

It seems like you're talkning about the Fred Wolf cartoon. In the Fred Wolf cartoon it's really unclear how long they've trained, though mostly because the writing is total garbage. Either Shredder has been sitting on the Technodrome for years or the Turtles trained for a few weeks, pick your poison.

Anyway, pet store turtles aren't exactly known for being especially intimidating creatures. They move really slowly, they are not very flexible, being tipped over is an obstacle unusually hard for them to overcome and their best defense is to awkwardly retract their limbs. There is simply a disadvantage in the combat department from the start.

Compare that to Alligators, Rhinos, Boars, Bulls, Mammoths, Jaguars, Rams, Foxes, Jackals, Sharks, Falcons, Lions, Bears, Wolves, Snakes and whatever else has been shown before. These are much more dangerous creatures just as normal animals, of course they're a more serious threat.

In most TMNT versions, the turtles do possess enhanced strength, endurance, speed, and agility. The concept of second mutations for the turtles that improve their abilities to monstrous levels is rarely explored and I feel like it is a major missed opportunity.

Honestly, I was always curious as to why the turtles are not designed like monsters and are never treated as monsters by other characters. I really liked the concept that Raphael naturally mutates into a more wild monster eventually. Genetically speaking the turtles are closely related to crocodilians which could lead to more ferocious mutations. In addition to their reptilian DNA, their mammalian human DNA is also closely related to chimpanzees which are also vicious beasts. Overall, I think the turtles being "weak" is just a problem with their lore and design not being fully explored for all possibilities.

Edit: Now imagine of all the possibilities when the turtles are viewed as a cross between a wereturtle-crocodile-chimpanzee-teenager, a fearsome sight indeed lmao!

That's why platinum dunes re designed then to make them more threatening by being more like hulk

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...48_-w&usqp=CAU

Tipped over? The Turtles aren't tortoises and tortoises aren't turtles.

To the point, it's easiest to think of the baddest ass Japanese ninja killer assasins you can think of or imagine. Now imagine they have shells that protect their entire backs and plastron that protects their entire torso and midsection. And also imagine they don't super care about humanity. Also, they're pretty short and wiry.

That's the TMNT to me. Anything else is fluff.

No I mean any and all versions. I mean what are the Mirage turtles if they just grew up alone with no ninja training. They're only bad ass martial artists cause of Splinter. Even all the flips and stuff are excersises they were trained in.

Aren't the Turtles kinda weak? Yes, they are, kind of. But they have weapons and are not afraid to use them. They are a bunch of freaks living in the sewers with a giant rat who taught them ninjutsu. What can you expect? Imagine four Bruce Lee with a shell and no mercy. Not so weak after all.
Goku could kill them with a finger but this is no Dragonball and there's nothing wrong about it.

I just refer to the fact that of no weapons, no training. Like I said, if some regular kid raised them, Bruce Lee stuff goes out the window. Like it's just a happy coincidence they just so happen to be raised by a ninja master. The muscles you see them have, they had to work for em, they had to build em. As opposed to someone like Leatherhead or even Slash that are somehow already dangerous without any weapons or any training. They already seem to just 'have' muscles as is.

I mean that might be why we relate to them more than anyone else, their strength lies in how human they are than anything else.

If they were weak, then they wouldn't have all that muscle mass, would they?

They're not weak per se, but the turtles across all incarnations are put against overwhelming odds against which they seem utterly outclassed.

Compared to average regular humans, the turtles are really powerful. They have alot of muscle mass, agile reflexes and shell armor, not to mention ninjitsu.

Part of the charm and relatability that they have to work hard for what they have.

As far as explaining the difference between them and other mutants... The Turtles were mutated a lot earlier than the rest, so it could be reasonable to think that the mutagen might not even be the same formula and possibly enhanced in some ways by the time others were exposed to it?

You also make a good point that many others already had a lot they kept when mutated. The TMNT were just babies though and didn't even get to be regular turtles for that long, so 95% of their growth and development was spent as something else, as humanoid beings with a different posture, different center of gravity, etc and adapted to a different lifestyle than the turtles they otherwise would have been.

That makes sense. I guess also since they grew into a family where most mutants are kinds on their own fending for themselves, they had more time to adapt and be more human.

That's why the origins where Splinter himself was Yoshi mostly make more sense cause he'd be a much more human foundation for their behavior, as opposed to a mutant rat learning how to adapt as well.

Isn't part of the "joke" Turtles as Ninjas in the first place?

Mostly just if you think of the Turtles as a parody, which both Eastman and Laird have implicitly said it is not.

Then someone needs to let the Turtlepedia know...

Yeah, that's dead wrong. I point blank asked both men if it was a parody. Eastman was a solid "no" and Laird was more like, "Parodic elements don't make it a parody, that's a lazy and wrong thing to say about it."

Laird staunchly says that he never intended TMNT to be a parody and Eastman says it kinda is and yet kinda isn't. There is definite elements of parody of that there is no doubt they are overstated and went away fast as the series went on.

I'm definitely with Andrew on this one that bringing up the dubious claim that TMNT was supposed to be a parody is just another way is saying the whole thing from it's inception was supposed to be a joke so the franchise should be as silly as possible. Even though the premise of that argument is false and frankly from the various cartoons and movies you can track how it's success dips as each version becomes sillier and sillier.

As for the question at hand; yes compared to most of their non human antagonists the turtles are physically weaker but I don't see that as a huge problem. Most comic book heroes fight foes that outmatch them it's supposed to be their skill, wits and whatever unique abilities they have that allow them to beat their superior on paper opponents. That's very much what TMNT is all about.

I don't mind the idea that they may be stronger than your average human. It's makes it slightly more believable that they could do things like jump from rooftops but they shouldn't super strong like the Bay movies.

Please note the quotes around "joke" meant to kind of note that joke wasn't used in the strictest of terms.

Turtles as Ninjas is absurd, intentionally so. And even if the series isn't a parody, the choice of Turtles as the titular Ninjas was used specifically for its crazy factor.

The fact that they can overcome the inherent weakness of being a Turtle to be proficient ninjas is baked into absurdity of the premise.

^^^

No doubt but I would argue even with the 'parody' elements the story of that first issue I would strongly argue is meant to be taken seriously.

Imagine that the story was exactly the same save for instead of Saki killing both Yoshi and Shen unbeknownst to Saki Yoshi survives but is seriously wounded. While wandering the streets he comes across four homeless kids and he decides to adopt them and train them in martial arts to avenge Shen.

Suddenly that's a series that no one would debate whether they should take it seriously...of course without the the anthropomorphic animal concept and comic book superhero conceits I highly doubt it would have been a franchise that made a lot of people millionaires or that most of us would be here talking about it.

The Turtles should not be strong.

Most Japanese ninja and samurai were frail and small (like most Asians) and wore armor to protect them or the shade of darkness. The Turtles do not need bulging muscles like 4 Hulk's or super power abilities.

They are like most Asians warriors where they use cunning and skill to overthrow their opponents rather than brute force.

Come on dude, you can do better than this.

Asians may be smaller than Europeans on average, but they are far from "frail", especially when it comes to fighters like Ninja and samurai.

I just finished playing Ghosts of Tsushima on PS4, a first party game by Sony set in ancient Japan in the year 1234. The main character, Jin, is very small and not muscular at all. He used tactics and skill to push back the Mongol invasion of Japan.

If you are unfamiliar with the game look at some trailers/gameplay videos on youtube. Most Japanese warriors were never known for their muscles.

Because the best way to know about Japanese history as well as the peoples lifestyles and genetics is clearly through a ps4 game :lol:

He's clearly not a puroresu guy, either. :lol:

They’re turtles not Asians.

Either way, I think the point was lost somewhere, but it was mostly me realizing most of the other mutants were already mutated as powerhouses or some sort of advantage, be it claws, fangs, or just size advantage while the Turtles had to work from the ground up to develop their muscles, their agility and had to become martial arts masters of deadly weapons to compete.

Hamato Yoshi is Asian and it's pretty obvious the Turtles were raised like Japanese warriors.

Yes Hamato is Asian but not the turtles. You could be raised by an Asian but that doesn’t make you an Asian.

https://memestatic.fjcdn.com/gifs/Ji...39_7981890.gif

This is peak ninja form. Ninja's were never known for their muscles. They were actually known for their stealth, they would sneak up behind an enemy and kill them in the middle of the night, throw shuriken or kunai at them and kill them from afar, or jump along rooftops and poison their tea.

Asians are naturally thin-framed, they used the strength of their opponent against them and turned it to their advantage.

There is no mandate that restricts a shinobi (ninja) from achieving great physical prowess. A shinobi can even excel in combat. One can argue that physical strength, strategy, and combat skills (martial arts) are pivotal aspects for excelling in combat.

I think TMNT should be reimagined as more monster-like because I think it would be interesting to see the turtles as a cross between the Jim Henson's turtles and a Guillermo Del Toro inspired creature of the night!

I don't like the term "monster-like" but I don't think there's anything wrong with designs that, while still paying like 50% homage to the Eastman & Laird design, give us something closer to what an actual turtle mutant might look like.

Good luck with that going over well. I suppose someday something is bound to make the PD designs look good in comparison...

It is more about embracing the "otherness" of the turtles instead of copy/pasting humanoid features on animals. There are some turtle species that are absolutely beautiful that would translate better to a more artful experience. I would imagine that each turtle would resemble a different turtle species like:

• Raphael as a common snapping turtle
• Leonardo as a diamondback turtle
• Michaelangelo as an eastern box turtle
• Donatello as a northern map turtle

As for "monster-like" I mean embracing the animal side. Turtles have long sharp claws because it helps them to tear their prey into bite-size chunks and to dig. In addition to claws, I assume Raphael as a snapping turtle would have dragon-like scales and sharp spikes as snappers look like dinosaur dragon hybrids (basically like RotTMNT). Turtles also have a nictitating membrane which helps to shield their eyes from the elements and I assume that is what gives their "white eyes" (basically what Leatherhead is shown to have but also given to the turtles). As for the face, I guess it would be best to remain true to a cross between the 1987, 1990 look with a few facial features that resemble their chosen turtle species like a few scales or stripe-like beauty marks. All the while keeping in mind that the overall design has to be aesthetically appealing of course (got to keep it commercially viable lmao).

My brother is an artist, I can probably get him to draw a concept of what I mean but it would probably take awhile. I can draw a concept too but it would probably not look as good lol.

Honestly the Bay (2014) designs wouldn't be too bad if not for two things.

1. The noses and lips just look way too human. If they all had a face comparable to Leonardo with the most traditional TMNT-like face I think the designs would not have caused the uproar that it did.

2. Having these 'edgy' and 'realistic' designs was undermined by the goofy accessories that even Playmates toys wouldn't use a variant. I get that they were trying to get people to more easily tell them apart and figure out their personalities but frankly it missed the mark. Other than Don (were they really went overboard) I don't think anyone would look at Leo as see 'Leader' they'd see a guy in samurai garb and wonder why all the other turtles wearing that if they are all martial artists. If you look at Raphael in his loin you might be inclined to think he's a barbarian not the hot head of the group and as if you looked at Mike in his gold chains you'd think he was a gaudy twat rather than the lighthearted one.

The sheer size does detract from them being more 'ninja-like' but with the magic of cgi they can be as agile and as flexible as they are required to be. Ninja fights with much smaller Foot Soldiers look odd...or I imagine they would if we actually saw any. Come to think of it what little we did see of that in lair fight didn't look that bad. You might even argue that their sheer size and strength might make it more realistic they can go up against wave after wave of Foot.

Not a huge fan of making the turtles drastically different sizes or different species. If they are supposed to be simple dime store turtles they wouldn't be different species, they certainly wouldn't put a snapping turtle in there with the others.

:lol:

Yeah, mixing up the species just makes the part of my mind that wants to be too logical about fictional Turtles a bit put off by that.

Although, I suppose making Raph a snapper would be a way to explain making him the front guy, not Leo, because he'd have simply already eaten everyone else before they got to the mutation part. :tconfuse:

I don't really like the idea of mixing their species plus Slash is already a snapper, usually. Better idea would be to make them all red eared sliders and just say they mutated a bit with the human that handled them plus the other species in the tanks, giving them each a slightly unique look. Or just go full Souls trilogy look.

I'd judge them on their skills/training, like how you get the non-superpowered human characters who are highly skilled fighters etc. Depends what you are pitching them against.

So far as design, PD were big with bullet proof shells but I remember not being impressed with their background for training, felt like I wanted to give them less credit there.

There are many reptile stores and breeders who sell more than red-eared sliders. Personally, the whole new concept of different species brought by RotTMNT has made the regular designs look very bland in comparison. I feel like Rise tapping into the concept of different species actually tapped into something very special that has immense potential for some beautiful art and art that truly resembles the character inside and out.

Slash is an alligator snapping turtle. I think it would be a nice concept if Raph was a common snapping turtle because it can lead to some similarities and conflict between the two characters. Common snapping turtles are known for their aggression (much like Raph) but an alligator snapper is known for their monstrous bite (much like Slash). In a sense their species also reflect their personalities while at the same time giving them a unique silhouette.

In fact some people already view Raph as a snapping turtle as there is a giant alligator snapping turtle, from a swamp in Texas, nicknamed after Raphael. Even from my own life there are times before RotTMNT when I see a snapping turtle and for some reason I automatically think "its just like Raph!". Raphael as a snapping turtle is a concept full of potential while at the same time his character remains recognizable.

Edit: I think a mutated snapping turtle is a much better idea as I am not fond of the whole green hobbit look lol. A snapper would be much more capable of stronger feats as well since they are hunters and if they received a mutagen boost then it would just make them a better hunter.

In which case if he'd been put in a bowl or terrarium with the others as a snapping turtle pre-mutation, then he would've killed the others and thus they never would have mutated, and instead of "TMNT" we'd be reading "The Adventures of Raphael."

There has to be some logical sense beyond what an individual thinks is "neat." Story-wise it makes very little sense for them to be different species. Some people just think it "looks cool" but for me that's not good enough to justify it.

Exactly this. I just can't understand why the origin has to be reworked instead of telling great stories. If you can't tell a great story without "fixing" or changing the damn origins, quit being a writer cuz you suck.