So how do you feel about the first LESBIAN kiss in the TMNT franchise?
 

I'm posting this here since not everyone visits the comic section or reads the IDW comics, so more people need to see this.

Jennika, who recently became a mutant female Turtle, kissed Sheena...who was a female rocker before she got mutated into a pig. They kissed in the newest issue of IDW #117 on pride month:

https://i.imgur.com/OBMrEXi.jpeg

Jennika is the first "big" LGBT character in the TMNT franchise, a female Turtle who is also bisexual/lesbian. And Sheena is a new character for this series only debuted recently. Decades from now when people think of homosexuality in the TMNT franchise, people will mention this scene. So how do you feel about it?

Discuss and debate amongst yourselves.

Good for the people who care.

Should'a been two much hotter chicks. Booooooooo!

Like I'unno, Alopex and... I'unno... she's the only IDW mutant I think is even a little bit "hot". :lol: But Her and Anyone would be a little bit more palatable from where I sit.

This kinda reminds me of the time I saw two hefty lesbians taking their clothes off and making out topless at the Rocky Horror Picture Show, when I went with a few of my friends once upon a time. Like "Okay, awesome, glad you're happy and you have every right to do what you're doing, but... man, nobody actually wants to look at this, specifically."

But that's me. Very particular about my lesbians!

...And still not sure why it needs to get a splash-panel in a TMNT comic. ((Shrug))

Why am I not surprised at all by who is excited about it and making a thread...

Mostly, I don't care.

I don't keep up too closely with comics and don't know much about the earlier run of this one (yet), so I do have a question though:

Was Jennika already directly known (not via speculation from people who festishize it) to be bi since long ago in her earlier days in this comic, or is this something they only just shoved in there now?

If the former and always been a part of her character, fine, no big deal.

If the latter, that is a bit off putting. I'm all for inclusion (even if I'm not the target audience of those aspects and such images are a cringy to me), but I don't like when it's forced in late in the game or kept like a big secret; the "surprise lesbian!" thing is getting old. If they are then just let them BE the whole time, stop trying to spring it on the audience. It's turning into an overdone trope.

Personal gripe, what's also getting rather old these days is that it seems like in many cases in a lot of media the tougher girl isn't allowed to be straight anymore. It was nice to see that in this case she was kind of this badass woman who was with Casey -- and then, oh, never mind. :tconfuse:


Honestly, I was hoping they'd just aim for actual "controversy" and have Jennika and Casey somehow work it out. :tlol:

I think the "rule" for female characters written by Campbell is, "They're all implicitly gay/bi unless stated otherwise."

Sure SEEMS like that's the rule.

I don't actually care if Jennika's queer or not because I don't give a single f*ck about Jennika, period. So I can't say it bothers me. But it does sort of lean into the whole "This character was created to check a very specific series of boxes" type of criticism she often gets. Like, it's really impossible to argue with that point, more and more.

it's the idw comics, no one "real" reads those, non canon for the mainstream masses.

It wouldn't even be the first lesbian kiss since I read on tumblr that 2012 donatello is trans so that kiss she gave april in the ice cream kitty music video is technically the first one.

No, Jennika was straight for the first 50 issues as a human. She was introduced in issue #51. She had a crush on Casey for most of her run under Tom Waltz, and they dated off-screen but broke up. She also had a boyfriend before that in her backstory when she was a Foot Soldier in her mini-series.

She only suddenly became bisexual/lesbian after she got mutated into a Turtle under Sophie's run. She was written 100% straight as a human, even having her flirt with Casey for a long time before he noticed her.

https://bamsmackpow.com/files/2018/0...85icecream.jpg

She was going after Casey for like 50 issues...when she got mutated and Sophie wrote her as bisexual.

Idk it makes the comic feel like it leans into fanfic territory.

Least they have more leeway with the original characters. It's not Raph and Casey making out. Or Bebop and Rocksteady.

All valid, BUT: "The Absence of Evidence, is NOT the Evidence of Absence."

Theoretically, she could have also liked girls the whole time and just not spoken of it. OR something hadn't "clicked" yet. I've known both men and women who either didn't develop or didn't admit to having any same-sex attraction until much later in life. If you asked them as teens or in their 20s, they'd say they were totally straight, but then later on Something Changed, whether that was meeting someone who "flipped their trigger" or otherwise they were in denial when they were younger.

I tease and I make jokes, but the truth is I have no problem at all with queer people and completely understand how some people insist that attraction is a fluid thing. There's definitely degrees of it. Some people are only "incidentally bisexual", or only attracted to very specific people. For some people it's "a mood", like they're straight 99% of the time but some days they'll feel "gay" for whatever reason.

I do agree, however, that in regard to fictional characters, there's times when trying to present this does not come off as being organic at all and feels more like "checking boxes". Especially when someone who's never exhibited any of these thoughts or feelings is "suddenly" queer. We can see their thought balloons, this sort of thing should come up if it's legit who they are and not a complete retcon. It's like "Iceman is suddenly gay, Alan Scott is suddenly gay, etc... despite the fact that in decades upon decades of Third-Person Omniscient Storytelling, we the reader have NEVER seen even a HINT of this before, and now suddenly it's a Big huge part of who they are." Hard to really buy into.

"My man!!!"

"My maaaan!!"

Exactly. Fictional characters don't have full lives, and only exist as far as they are depicted. What we don't see or hear about doesn't exist. In this case, she was clearly a straight character, and then Campbell took over writing duties, and all of a sudden the character is bisexual, which just so happens to be definitively proven in the issue that comes out during pride month. Everything about Jennika is just one box checking exercise after another, and it's only become more blatent as the comic has gone on. I don't care about Jennika as a character, but it still feels irritating because it's like I'm being forced to care because they keep making her the center of everything.

Never read the comic so eh...

If anything, my feeling right now is why some are giving Cubed's weirder threads attention?

And sdp, dude, I know you enjoy posting weird stuff but...unnecessary much?

I mean there's nothing odd about a thread like this when this event just happened in this months comics. I know some of you don't read the IDW comics so you have no idea this was going on, which is why I posted the thread here in the general section instead of the comic section so more people would see it.

Unless I'm forgetting something random or minor, this is the first "on-screen" lesbian kiss between two TMNT characters. And given Jennika is pushed for obviously being a female Turtle (and the first one since Venus), it tracks a bit higher especially since she'll probably be around the entire rest of the IDW run.

We have a lesbian female mutant Turtle. Let that sink in, I never thought I'd say that sentence.

I mean, yes, it is typical Cubed pot-stirring, but at the same time... eh, kinda relevant. Valid topic of conversation even if our boy is being his usual disingenuous self.

Seriously? I'm glad I stopped reading this series years ago.

Bleh. Representation is fine and all, and if she'd been making eyes at other women too, as well as Casey, then whatever, but shoehorning it in like that stinks.

BIG. WHOOPTIE. DO.

It's Pride Month. Every corporation and it's uncle is virtue signaling like mad right now. Lesbian characters are not remarkable anymore, haven't been for a long while. It's boring, it's not exciting, and it's attention hungry and tryhard as hell.


You know what would be revolutionary? Not having a female character get shoved into some relationship as part of the default female story line. Single female characters that remain single are a rare species, unlike their male counterparts.

Lesbian characters are dime a dozen. I'll crow when they finally come up with something original.

It's even more egregious simply because of the sheer abundance of lesbian and bisexual OCs that have popped up during Campbell's run. It's seriously not even a book about the TMNT anymore, it's a fanfic about a bunch of mutant lesbians having an ongoing kissing contest.

"Not that there's anything WRONG with that", but c'mon, the criticism is to be expected. A new writer comes onto a book - ANY book - and overnight things go from there being NO queer characters to suddenly you're tripping over them at every turn... it stands out. Especially when characters who have never shown any hints of it suddenly "come out" with no build-up or backstory. And it implies that the writer cares more about putting their own personal "mark" on things - at any cost - more than engaging the audience or being a good storyteller.

The attempts at "inclusion and diversity" under this specific regime have been clumsy at best and ham-fisted at worst. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't do these things, but there's grace and tact and an organic way to handle it. "I'm going to put 80 new OCs in there, they're gonna get the bulk of the attention, and they're ALL gonna be queer" is about as subtle as a brick to the face.

You can have the best of intentions and still do a sh*t job of what you're trying to put across.

OK, doesn't bother me any. Go for it.

Well technically most media has moved onto transgender characters as "the next big thing."

You're right that gay or lesbian characters aren't a big deal anymore, there's tons of them in every show, movie, comic, book, etc. It does seem though trans characters are, "the new hot thing" and I've definitely noticed more and more that has taken over from what used to just be the gay character.

I can't wait for the 24-issue arc about Donatello's bottom surgery, and all other plots grinding to a halt so that can be the center of attention for two years.

Makes you wonder what the next thing will be, doesn't it?

The only things left are....robosexuality (robot A.I.'s still aren't advanced enough in our world to be sex-bots like you see in sci-fi), beastality (never gonna happen), or uh...incest? Meh. And unless it's stepsister/brother stuff, it's never going to be mainstream.

Beastiality, like a mutated Jenni still having the hots for Casey when this sh!tfest started? I mean, we are talking about human/animal mutants. Literal beastiality if the human characters try getting with the mutant characters... like 2k12 Donnie wanting April...

As far as the kiss, Jenni has completely become the exact thing everyone said she was not going to be from day one. And this series hasn't completely gone over the edge... really, really bad fanfic being fed to the masses. 17 issues & two years real world time with almost no real plot movement at all.

Ross does as expected.
Next chapter will include prom, most likely.

Silly humans, if its still bestiality because it's cross species even though both beings are intelligent and consenting adults...it's already happening with Jennika and her girlfriend. Donnie and Mona for that matter as well. :trazz: Being fellow mutants really shouldn't make the species mixing part any less weird.

She was still herself on the inside, there's no reasons why such an abrupt and traumatic change to her life would just suddenly make those feelings vanish. He was a part of normal life, however, that was suddenly gone. Imagine nearly every anchor to your identity disappearing... It's not like the relationship continued afterward though, and of course she was hurt, albeit surely understanding that Casey had to back off.


edit: Even if the human/Turtle wasn't too weird for most people, realistically it probably still should have been too weird for Casey, even if otherwise okay with mutants, since she looks just like his friends. lol Doubly awkward.

I kinda think that for the purposes of fictional stories, at least, once you're dealing with sapient beings who can talk and think like "regular people" then all bets are off and you can't overthink it anymore.

I mean, in the Archie Sonic comics you saw hedgehogs having kids with squirrels, coyotes marrying bunny rabbits... pretty much a total free-for-all. Like yeah there were still plenty of same-species pairings but just as many that weren't.

Within such a society - and bearing in mind that it's all fiction, anyway - it would be entirely pointless to try and instill any kind of "rules" about which humanoid and fully-sapient species could or couldn't "date" each other. In that context, the idea of a female mutant turtle (who used to be human) hooking up with the "regular" human guy she used to date wouldn't even really be very weird, comparatively.

That wouldn't even be unprecedented, really. Not even within this franchise. Mikey was very blatantly into Mitsu in TMNT III; even though the movie made it clear that wasn't going anywhere, it wasn't specifically treated like some great big taboo, them not hooking up had more to do with the fact that she already had a boyfriend than the fact that Mikey was a mutant turtle (at least the way the movie presents it). And in the Archie comics, once again even though it went nowhere they definitely hinted that Oyuki had a thing for Mikey early on. Then you have things like each of the Turtles having expressed attraction towards April in various media, Irma very openly being DTF with any of the Turtles if the chance ever presented itself... and so on and so forth.

I think once the creatures/characters in question can walk upright, speak like a human and do advanced algebraic equations then it's like "screw it, f*ck whoever you want".

I dunno... like, if you have a female cat, some ooze from outer space lands on it one day and she becomes bipedal and sentient... it's open season on going to plow town on her?

That still seems ick to me. Call me old fashioned.

Does she look, talk, and behave like Cheetara, now, in this hypothetical scenario?

Because that might affect my answer. :lol: Hypothetically.

Well if she looks exactly like Cheetara I would probably mistake her for human... With tattoos that look like clown make up... I guess that if you have a thing for clowns that wouldn't be weird?


But I guess Cheetara, between her 80's and 2010's designs, is meant to look less like a clown and more like a human with slight cat-like features. So human at her base line but with pointed ears, claws, large irises, slit pupils and hair that has a texture more like fur... I think at that point you'd still think it's human.

Here's the thing, humans find other human beings attractive. A lot people might find furry art to be off-putting because it tries to make animal characters sexy, which of course goes against the typical desire to go for other humans. But... Well, replace Krystal's head with a human head and remove the tail, you'd essentially have a blue human. The way furry artists make the characters sexy is by adding human features that are typically considered sexy. Breasts, slim waist, abs, thick thighs... Vertical spine... Bipedal body plan... Ahem... Uh... Human genitals...

If we take a more cat-like humanoid cat character, let's say Old Hob given the subject matter, I doubt anyone would find him all that sexy if he didn't have the normally sexy human male features like broad shoulders, large muscles and noticeable height. And if they're drawing straight up porn of him... I doubt they would draw him with a barbed penis...

There is also the matter of fantasy here. There are recorded instances of people with a scat fetish who turned out to not enjoy involving fecal matter in their sexual experiences once they actaully tried it, it was fine for them in porn or in their fantasies, not so much in reality. The reasons behind that aren't difficult to deduce, humans generally do not like feces. And while anthros may not be real, it can be assumed that furries might not find them as sexy in real life as they find the drawings.

I guess it's a tolerance scale thing? The same person who thinks jacking off to a Khajit is weird might find Callie Briggs tolerable for people to fap to and might jerk it to Tigra (the Marvel character, not the Thundercats one). In the end though, all of this technically makes the characters look more human than animal.

But ultimately I guess it's a matter of fantasy vs reality. What might seem appealing in fiction might be less so in real life. So my final statement is this:
Someone who thinks a drawing of what is essentially a human with a dogs head is really hot, could actually find such a creature totally disgusting if they ever ran into one in real life. The more human it looks however, the more likely it is that you would actually be attracted to it. But I personally suspect that threshold lies just on slightly more human-like than Cheetara, so basically indistinguishable from human.

And today I realized a lot of humanity are just primitive beasts, comparatively speaking, and that being human would, in a world with sentient mutants, really just be a very superficial hold on entitlement and privilege. lol

Yeah...I think the prior state of the relationship would be a huge factor that aught to still matter. The former pet thing is creepy no matter how you frame it.

Like if a mutated zoo animal not only got with a human partner, but it was also their former zookeeper... Uhhh nope, no thank you. o.O That's not too far different than dating a young adult you used to babysit as a child. The history still kind of matters. Maybe not illegal, but tons of cringe.


Yeah, and that touches on something I was saying in some other thread not along ago about the TMNT themselves. Some great artists are very capable of designing them to look like a bunch of hotties, but the aspects that are appealing are still very much the things that register as human traits.

In contrast, while common that many fans, esp among the female variety, are able to take note of those traits, I've never once heard of someone who thought that the shells were hot. Able to be objectively pretty with a lot of detail and color, sure, but attractive to a human... no. (Granted there might be a few in some circles I stay away from... but definitely not the norm.)

Would it still be bestiality if they were previously human? It's a mutated human, not a mutated animal. They'll still often keep their memories of their old lives, and if retromutagen is applied, they'll return to being a human, since the whole human genetic essence of them still technically lies 'underneath.' And if you believe in such a thing, they'll still have a human soul.


Now if it was a mutated animal, that I think would be different. Their whole genome is animal, de-mutated they will return to whatever animal that mutant had been. They have animal memories, animal thought processes and animal souls.

Yeah both Jennika and Sheena were previously humans, and I guess they could get de-mutated some day, so it is technically two humans going out in animal form. Now if Jennika was say a human but Sheena was a pet pig turned into a mutant, maybe that'd be a different story.

neatoman had to go an' bring up Callie Briggs in blatant disregard for the fact that I got sh*t to do today AND gotta go to bed early.

Thanks, "pal". Now I'm gonna be preoccupied. You're a prince!

That would be very weird, like if it was your actual pet cat that got mutated, rather then you just happen to run into Cheetarah and Pumyra in heat. I think the fact that the same Fluffykins that used to knock **** off the table and bug you for cat food now wants you to bone her or let him bone you..... I don't think you'll be able to get those thoughts out of your mind unless you were already into your pet that way.





That adds another layer to it. Like say Casey was banging human Jennika.... after some time getting past the appearance, maybe he banged mutant turtle Jennika a few times. If she ever gets exposed to retromutagen or whatever, hey, human Jennika is back. Now sexy time is a lot more fun and a lot less creepy.

Now say April and Donnie did start messing around. If Donnie ever gets demutated back to a normal turtle.... the fact that April was riding something that is now an ordinary pet turtle should feel all sorts of weird in her mind.

Well yeah. Let's say Bebop gets mutated from a human into a warthog... he shouldnt suddenly be expected to wait/hope for the unlikelihood of a female warthog to get mutated. It's OK for him to be attracted to humans, or vice versa (I guess? different strokes and all).

Plus it would be kinda weird for I guess... human-to-mutant Bebop to want to bang flat-out mutated animal female warthog, idk.

That reminds me, did Mona ever find out that Donnie was once a turtle and not some poor nerd dude that got hit by mutagen? Is all of Mutant Town mutated humans or also sentient animals?

Another interesting thing to consider. What if that pig girl's mutation worked out in her favor? Like what if whenever they get de-mutated, the pig girl is some ugly as **** human girl that turns Jennika off?

Like should I jump into some mutagen and hopefully mutate into some sort of 'handsome' mutant animal to get some mutant girl poon in Mutant Town?

I'd be more worried about "side effects" with the ooze than anything else. No, not in the way you're thinking. But maybe that, too.

I recall seeing something of that and she got upset over it and mad at him, assuming that he and the other Turtles just can't understand the plight of all these people who have been mutated. (And a bit of a bitch imo, never giving a moment of thought to the difficult lives the Turtles had lived for years before now and had no one else, unlike the new mutants like her who are surrounded by other people.)