Revisiting 2012
 

So, now that all the show drama has had time to die down, and i t's not tainting the series at all for me... I thought I'd go back and re watch everything from the start, see if it flows any better with out the super long breaks.

Season 1 - clearly the best season. tries to keep things a little more grounded. evens things out between shredder and the krang pretty well. characters set up nicely.

Season 2 - Normally I'd skip 'worthless' episodes like Pizza Face, The Pulverizer, and a few others (Squirlenoids) but this time I sat through 'em. hardest was the Shellacne episode, weirdest was the Fungus episode. Season 2 isn't the best. but it has it's moments. including slash. Things that felt forgotten about the first time around where clearly a bit better planned out when you watch it full through, like Karai finding out her parenting secret.

Season 3 - on it now. This season, honestly, felt like the crews horror movie wet dream. EVERY single episode so far is some kind of horror movie rip off. as someone not a real fan of the genre, it just comes off pointless to mix the two so much. Normally, there are SO many episodes I would have skipped. the stupid epsidoe with April's mother that got totally forgotten about later down the line. The Creeper...the frog episode...etc. but, in interest of fair shakes, watching it all..

A pretty fair analysis. Looking back, I think the show started off pretty strong with seasons 1 and 2 but went downhill on season 3 and the first half of the season 4, before getting better once again.

I also made a watch through thread on the drome, here are all my thoughts of impressions of the 2012 TMNT seasons as I watched them. But don't let other people's comment in the thread influence you, I personally think season 4 is the best since Season 1. Season 5 has many fans but I only liked the series finale which is Mutant Apocalypse, make sure to watch that at the end as it was intended and the crossover before). That finale 3 parter is perhaps the best episode(s) of the 2012 show.

It doesn't get much better, each season has about 5 horror themed episodes or more, it's my main complaint, the writers wasted so many episodes on horror tributes. It's almost as if they wanted to write another type of show and only dealt with the turtles to be able to have their stupid horror tributes.

I'm normally pressed nowadays for my screen time, but now that you posted this, I truly would like to sit down and rewatch it too.

I'm going to see if I can do it..... I remember I got legit bored with the show around the cabin season.

Yeah, I seem to have a fonder memory of the show but I dipped it out around season 2, so maybe that's why.

The Northampton arc is only the first 8 eps of Season 3, I have no idea where this nonsense of "half of Season 3 being horror themed" even comes from, but it should have been shorted to 5 eps in Northampton. The bulk of the space eps were good aside from a few of them (the gremlins ep and a few others)

Fungus Humungus is probably one of the best episodes of the season.

EDIT: Also the irony of Vegita-san complaining about "fillers" when he loves the Fred Wolf cartoon where almost 1/3rd of the eps can be skipped (and I'm saying this as someone who loves the original cartoon)

Yeah but it doesn't really "need" to be spoken of in regard to the FW cartoon like it does with the Nicktoon. By this point most of the FW show's flaws are oft-recognized, even by people who are fans of it. By contrast, the Nicktoon still carries this reputation for being this amazing show when objectively it kinda wasn't. There was a ton of stuff wrong with it that people just "weren't supposed" to mention because people were so thrilled to have a new TMNT show out. Now that it's been over with for a few years I think we'll see a lot more criticism coming out as people revisit it.

It's very common for kids cartoons to have half the season be filler or stand-alone episodes, so kids can jump in at any episode and not be "confused" by what's going on. The 2012 show mixed filler/stand-alone eps with plot eps coming directly after, so it's not like there was entire seasons of nothing happening.

I watched the 2012 series in full 3 times, it has a number of arcs each season. Of course some stuff gets flanderized and some of the mutant of the week eps could be boring or whatever, but the better parts hold up.

I was surprised to see it was you who created this thread VS :D By the time I got here you weren't a fan but I think I remember you saying you liked the early stuff.

I also feel the earlier seasons were stronger, I know for a number of people season 2 was a big drop but I liked it, not the pizzaface ep though :) With the horror stuff I think it was mostly grouped in the Northampton arc, I liked some of that (mostly the first ep) though it's not something I would want to go on too long. With season 4 I preferred the later half as the Space arc started to go on too long for me.
As for 5, I preferred having an on going series to having tales but I didn't dislike it, didn't feel the horror arc needed 4 eps but it's not really a big deal. 5 At least worked with all the airing issues, it would at least air the arcs at a time.

Well... in his defense there is a bit of an expectation that 2012 was carrying a cross-season story and whereas the FW show had maybe a single continuity thread ever that could be encompassed by the term "recognition" - like "where has Shredder been since we sank the Technodrome" or Rat King shows up and it's simply "this guy is back".

I think the nature of the show can command an observation like Vegita-san was making. Filler in 2012 stuck out like a sore thumb whereas filler in FW was "just another episode".

I actually think some of my favorite eps were some of the fillers. As I mentioned, Fungus Humungous is one of the funniest eps of the series and had the best visuals too with the Turtles tripping out due to the fungus spray making them hallucinate. But I do agree some eps like the Pizzaface ep and the Pulverizer eps were pretty bad, and my least favorite ep overall is the Bigfoot ep which was terrible. I loved The Creep ep though, it was a very well done episode.

Season 5 is probably one of the strongest seasons after Seasons 1-2, but Seasons 3 and 4 also have many great episodes. The backhalf of Season 3 is fantastic, and Season 4 had a number of great eps in space and then when they get back to NY almost every ep was important since they were wrapping up most of the character arcs back then.

Oh man it's been so long I forgot about that... that was hysterical.... I think, in hindsight I might have fonder memories of that show than it deserves on the basis that it's one of the few cartoons I ever actually laughed out loud at now and again.

I'm going to have to re-watch it.....

I've been meaning to watch season 5 one of these days. Is that the apocalypse arc?

Apocalypse is the last arc of season 5.

I've not gone back and watched the show from start to finish, just revisited whatever ep I've wanted to watch.

The Nickelodeon Bebop and Rocksteady crossovers were the final episodes to air, but the Mutant Apocalypse episodes take place much later.

But besides Nicks airing the production order didn't change, I don't think anyway. So if someone buys the series to watch then M/A would still be last.

The apocalypse arc is only the last 3 episodes of Season 5. The first 17 episodes all take place in the present.

My God, a Foot Too Big. How many different drugs where they on when they wrote that one?

dunno if that one or attack of the mega shredder, or buried secrets goes down as worst 2012 episode.

they could have found a better way to show what a creep donnie was being to april.

A Foot Too Big is by far the worst episode of the show.

I've said it before, but the 2012 show is my favorite out of the Ninja Turtle cartoons. I think it holds up really well, and it has it's weaker parts, but the strong parts are really strong. My personal favorite season is season 4, especially the back half where it was just really solid all around. Though I do wish the show had just done the Kavaxas arc as a movie and ended there. The apocalypse ending kind of ruins the show, which is why I'm somewhat glad that it's "officially" noncanon. I also think that this show watches better on DVD, as the longer arcs like Northampton, April's dad being mutated, Karai reuniting with the turtles, etc., are not nearly as painful as when you get a month or longer break every four episodes, and you get to see the development play out at a much better pace.

You can choose to view the Apocalypse finale as a "what if" if you want to. For Ciro it's likely intended to be canon, but if not, it doesn't really matter.

The Kavaxas arc and the 80's crossover with Bebop/Rocksteady both work well as series finale arcs.

I actually disagree that the Bebop and Rocksteady arc works well as a finale. The Kavaxas arc continued on from the primary narrative, tying off the final loose ends and then providing an emotionally satisfying ending, which is something the B&R arc didn't have. But beyond that, what really makes it not feel like a finale, at least for me, is the lack of cohesion throughout the parts. Characters will show up in one of the three parts, and then be completely absent in the following parts, like the Mutanimals in part 1, or Karai and Shinigami in part 2. Nothing really builds up and it just kind of start and go throughout, as the conflict stays the same size in each episode rather than getting bigger each episode. Also, I just think the other works better because it's entirely within the context of the 2012 show, rather than once again tying in with the '87 show. They're fun episodes on their own, but it's not exactly the best note to leave the series on.

Mutant Apocalypse is the canonical ending, and a fantastic one at that.

apocalypse arc is canon, just because you don't like how it ends the series and the implications of that being the future doesn't mean it's non-canon. I don't know how this narrative 'you can view it as a what if episode and if you like it you can count it if not that's ok". I mean by that logic can I just say Splinter's death didn't happen and that's a what if scenario? It's a canon episode and a great one and a great finale.

the crossover episode is worse than the first crossover, so it's not a great ending, not to mention how is it an ending to the 2012 show if it deals with the 80s characters and they got help from the 80s cartoon characters. I wasn't a huge fan of the apocalypse arc but it surely feels more of a "last epic" adventure than the crossover which isn't focused on the 2012 characters.

The canonicity of things is a bit nebulous when dealing with a franchise made by different people over different times. Whose to say whose word really "counts"? If Peter Laird spoke on the canonicity of the newer shows, we'd ignore him even though he's the original creator, as it were. Likewise, I can't speak for those here, but a large number of people, myself included, will ignore the Star Wars sequel trilogy because of how it undermines the rest of the story and sucks in general. Disney, the current owner and creator of Star Wars, considers it canon, George Lucas doesn't, but he doesn't own it anymore. Whose word matters more? In some ways, I almost think it can be better to focus on what's good rather than what counts, but that can lead to it's own set of problems. Ciero considers it canon. Nickelodeon officially does not. Whose word counts? It really depends on your perspective. Mutant Apocalypse is a fine set of episodes by themselves, technically competent from a writing and foundational perspective. But as an ending to the show? It undermines the story by making everything the turtles did completely pointless. Nothing they did mattered. They just delayed the inevitable. I think that sucks. Ultimately it doesn't matter. 2012 is just another show that I'll say "Yeah, it was really good, but it kinda has a sucky ending."

what makes a bigfoot even more stupid is at the end april contradicts her earlier actions making the entire point moot and confusing.

one reason why the episode Leonardo Cuts Loose of 87 is so annoying. characters contradict themselves and forget what they said a few seconds earlier, like they aren't paying attention.

I still watch the series (the first season in particular) on a regular basis because I wanted my fan comic "the Full 80%" to feel as authentic as possible.

So the canon of my comic is pretty much the canon of the series after the Kavaxxas series. I always felt that the Kraang were criminally underused in the series and when I read about the idea that Ciro had for a full movie called "Return of the Kraang" I went with that.

What I do when introducing people to the 2012 series is to play "Lone rat and cubs" to them before unleashing the first season because "Lone rat" is an excellent way to show what the series is all about, it's by far the best episode of the entire series.

So yeah, I still love the series and watch it on a regular basis even if the animation is a little iffy at times.

I always thought Lone Rat and Cubs worked really well as a nice denouement episode, to follow the Kavaxas arc. A nice, low-key adventure that brings the whole show full circle. In that regard, it also works really well following the Mutant Apocalypse arc, if you want to take it as canonical. Either way, I think it works really well when watched as the final episode.

What? the canonicity is not nebulous, it's an actual episode of the series and never is it implied that it didn't happen in the show, on the contrary it's an epilogue. Whether you like that as an epilogue or not is another thing, it's like when Batman Beyond started and people didn't like it being Batman's future since everything was wrong and many people online would say it was "an alternate future" or possible event, with no evidence whatsoever, it wasn't until much later when the show proved to be great and even had crossovers with their past selves that people stopped spouting nonsense.

I hate the Star Wars sequels as much as anyone, in fact even before most people did, I hated Ep.7 since it came out. That doesn't mean it's not canon, it definitely is and Disney decides that, not George Lucas; Who by the way has never said it wasn't noncanon either, which wouldn't matter either since he doesn't own star wars.

Now when the creator says something that is not in the actual show it's usually called word of god, it's what the creator says he wanted but isn't in the actual canon show (which sometimes they make up stuff the longer it's been since the show created). I think taking word of god with a grain of salt is the best take, sometimes they go crazy with what the IP owners would ever approve so it really depends, so i dont' care what Ciro necessarily thinks but in this case we do see it was part of the show and Nickelodeon has never explicitly stated it is not canon. You might not like it as an epilogue, I also prefer a happy ending to the turtles but it's as canon as it can get.

It's interesting that you use Batman Beyond as your example. There aren't actually any crossovers within the show itself, and in the early years, it wasn't treated as the definite future, but a possible future. It wasn't until Justice League and Static Shock crossed over with it that it was codified as the definite future. Until that point, not even the showrunners of the DCAU considered it definitive.

As to your other points thought, Mutant Apocalypse actually has been rendered noncanon officially by Nickelodeon. From the Wikipedia page:

"The Wasteland Warrior, "The Impossible Desert", and "Carmageddon!" are typically presented as a television movie, "Raphael: Mutant Apocalypse". Although these episodes were not the last to air, and not officially considered canon by Nickelodeon, they were the last episodes produced.[6] In an interview, executive producer Ciro Nieli revealed that he intended for these episodes to be the series finale in order to prevent any alteration of the timeline that he and the rest of the crew had built,[7] despite the episodes' contradictions to previously established canon (most notably Renet's description of the future from the Season 3 episode "Turtles in Time"). However, Nickelodeon chose to air those episodes on Nicktoons in the middle of the season, and declared "Wanted: Bebop and Rocksteady" the finale instead.[8] On threads from the official TMNT twitter, the company indicated that "Raphael: Mutant Apocalypse" is non-canon,[9][10] and a press release for the DVD refers to the special as "another dimension".[11]

Here is all of the text from the tweets in question:


TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 22, 2017
Wanted: Bebop & Rocksteady is the finale. Airs on Nickelodeon on 11/12.


TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 25, 2017
Replying to @Spidey4Evs and @pacodelbarrio12
Right on. "Tales of the TMNT" is stories from the past, future, and beyond.


TMNT
@TMNT· Sep 22, 2017
Replying to @ShinobiPizza and @NickAnimation
A "Tale" from the beyond!

Lucy Rogers
@asfaloth_12· Sep 30, 2018
Replying to @TMNT
Anything can happen in an AU
TMNT
@TMNT· Oct 1, 2018
Alternate possibilities


FrodoFan1986
@frodofan1986· Jan 30, 2018 @auman_brandon
Is there any validity to people saying "Mutant Apocalypse" can be interpreted as an AU? I'm asking on behalf of someone with severe depression who swore off the show entirely after seeing that, because it upset her so much.
Brandon Auman
@auman_brandon· Jan 31, 2018
It could be seen as AU, because it takes place in the future

Momin
@rignaceous· Jan 22, 2018
Replying to @auman_brandon
Wow you replied! That’s an interesting response, and the number one big question all TMNT 2012 fans have, is that did you want Mutant Apocalypse to be canon or be in an alternate universe?

Brandon Auman
@auman_brandon· Jan 22, 2018
That's for the audience to decide

But, perhaps the most damaning piece of evidence regarding it's noncanon status is from a press release from Nickelodeon advertising the final dvd collection of this series, where they explicity refer to the mutant arc as taking place in another dimension. From the press release:

"NEW YORK; November 1, 2017 - Leo, Raph, Donnie and Mikey put five years of training and fighting to the ultimate test as they embark on their final missions in the new Nickelodeon DVD Tales of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Final Chapters, available December 12. In this final collection of episodes, the half-shelled heroes must band together once and for all, in order to be the heroes they were destined to be. Whether they are battling mutants in another dimension, teaming up with a rabbit samurai to defeat an evil sorcerer, or clashing with classic movie monsters to protect New York City, the Turtles will have to use all of their ninja-knowledge to defeat their enemies!"

Per your own statement, this would render the arc noncanon, as Nickelodeon and Viacom own TMNT right now. This is what I meant by saying that it is nebulous. Whose word should count more, the showrunner who made the show, or the studio that owns it? It's easier in works made by a single author. Stan Sakai is the only person to ever write and create Usagi Yojimbo. Whatever he says about any details about the story would be taken as true. If IDW, the current publisher, tried to say that the earlier Fantagraphics stories were noncanon, they would be ignored. George Lucas no longer owns Star Wars, but Disney's Star Wars sucks. Whose word matters more? According to you, whoever owns it gets to be right, but ownership could change, and if someone else buys it, they could wipe out all the canon if they wanted. Canon in franchises almost has a Schrodinger's cat thing going on, as it could at any point be retconned into never being canon and them right back. Whose word matters more? But regardless, Nickelodeon has explicity referred to it as noncanon, and they own it, which means that, at least by your standards, Mutant Apocalypse is noncanon.

got through most of season 3.

some episodes where not as bad as I remembered and actually had a few redeeming things about them. Eyes of the Chimera. Vision Quest. In Dreams.

The rest, where as bad, or worse. a Foot To Big, Within the Woods, the Croaking, Casey Jones Vrs The Underworld.... The latter being how he single handedly beats everyone, even for a few seconds, without even a sweat into mary sue territory.

The Good, Clash of the Mutanimals, Battle for new York. Serpent Hunt, Pig and the Rhino...Turtles in Time/Tale of the Yokai... havbn't gotten to the last few.

I'd say about 9 bad episodes in season 3 that never need re watching again. the rest ok.

I remember being really annoyed with the first part of season 3 the first time around. This was before I had read the Mirage comics, so the long arc away from the plot, combined with the month long breaks in the middle, made for a tedious time. But then after I read Mirage, and rewatched the show, I found I could appreciated the purpose of the Northampton arc. The extended breather period was what it was supposed to be, and honestly it did it better than the 2003 show, which only had 2 episodes dedicated to it. I think the only things I remember distincly not liking from this season were this show's interpretation of Hun, the inconsistency with Muckman's hero status reletive to the turtles, and Casey's "This is awesome!" line right at the end of the finale after the world just got destroyed. Really kind of killed the mood.

I've occasionally rewatched an episode here or there on Pluto. I don't think that I'll ever reach a point where I'll want to rewatch the show in its entirety. I think Hulu still has the entire series though, correct?

the thing that bugged me is that these are supposed to be 'down time' episodes. but there was just as much action in these as the main plot. and most where horror movie rip offs that made little or no sense. it felt like a totally different show runner was in charge. compared to the more grounded return to new york section.

I think Casey's line was supposed to try and lighten the mood a little after what just happened, but like mikey's line after leatherhead 'dies' in 2003 when the layer collapses on him, it feels really weird and defeats the purpose.....

It just feels like someone was trying to keep this show grounded....and someone else was trying to take it in a different direction. feels like a case of two different people in charge this season and that's why it's a real mess.

for example, clash of the mutanimals. Why does shredder sit in a lowered pit of fire for no reason during that battle? something weird in an other wise ok episode. there could have been other better reasons to show ways he didn't get crushed by that statue at the end.

Dr.Cluckenstein is another weird addition that gets totally forgotten about once they move on.

At least in 2003, they DID have some down time. turtles recovering from their injuries with the battle. camping trips. felt alot more fun and natural.

here, we get a society of frogs in a giant tree that NO ONE seems to notice. a city that gets invaded and goes totally dark/quiet and the entire world things everything is ok......I mean...come on.

It should still be streamed in multiple places. Watching the show in order is much more rewarding than just a random ep

Not if you dislike most of it.

I still never watched past season 2 of this show. It just couldn't keep my interest. Good to know it gets better later on. Maybe I'll skip to the end.

that's some good mental gymnastics to make the headcanon replace screen canon canon through interpretation of vague tweets at best from word of god mostly done to not piss off aspies on social media. But at the end of the day, still canon.



Even if you hate the show, anyone can watch the Mutant Apocalypse arc by itself and understand it perfectly and love it. Start there, might get you curious to check the entire show out. It's just good and works as a standalone movie.

There's no mental gymnastics about it. It's not headcanon. Nickelodeon deemed it noncanon. They referred to it as noncanon. It is officially listed on available sources of information as noncanon, which is just as well, as it contradicts the canon of the show. This is entirely consistent with your previous statements wherein you said whoever owns the property gets to determine canon. At this point, the only mental gymnastics are on your end, as in response to the sizable amount of evidence I've presented, you have essentially said "Nah, that doesn't count" and then not addressed any of the actual points I made.

What official information? Do you really want me to go full aspie and go point by point? I will. Granted I don't like the idea of the 2012 turtles having that future and the implications of it but it's a good story arc and canon, i can't change it.
Batman Beyond was always canon, it was always fans who said it might not because they didn't like bruce being a jaded old man. Later crossovers proved them wrong.

first of all quoting wikipedia with obvious fan slant, not even worthy of being included in the current page of wikipedia grasping at straws.


So? Something being the "finale" doesn't mean it's the actual last episode.

Where does it say it's non canon? It's a tale from the future.

Not that it matters what some wagie working the social media account says, the account might be official but not necessarily what he types there. Social media managers get stuff wrong all the time.

Again, this means nothing

First of all, that would be word of god and not necessarily screen canon. Second of all how would you reply to a fan who is basically saying they're going to commit sudoku because they're cartoon show for kids didn't end how they wanted it to end? AND even then he uses the word "could" which is a modal verb that expresses possibility at best and a vague statement of "for the audience to decide" AKA head canon. He sure didn't want to be in a news hit article of how a fan killed themselves because their headcanon is wrong.

How is this damaging? Anyone can write those synopsis and they often include wrong information all the time, most fandoms don't consider that type of information as canon. And even then it doesn't state it's not canon.


Disney decides what canon is, all the EU is gone and anything Lucas wants is also non canon. Now I hate Disney star wars and just enjoy things whether canon or non-canon. but that doesn't mean the sequel trilogy didn't happen. it did and it sucks.

:lol::lol:

Dude, this is the funniest thing I've seen you post, OMG.