The greatest fighter of the TMNT is Michelangelo?
 

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As I said before, my main shellhead buddy is a black belt martial artist who runs his own Dojo. Now he and I were spending an evening watching different versions of the TMNT and we got to talk about Michelangelo, how good he truly is.

Because although Mikey in general is a goofball and is constantly joking around and being the kid of the four, there are a LOT subtle and not so subtle hits that he's actually the most gifted at fighting out of all four of them.

- In the 2003 "Same as it never was" we meet up with a Michelangelo who learned to focus and was an unstoppable fighting machine.
- In "Monkey brains" of the 2012 series, we see him besting Donatello during a training session. Later on when Master Splinter demonstrates to Donatello how to fight without thinking, he strikes out against Mikey who blocks off all of his attacks without even opening his eyes.
- In "Never say Xever" during the fight against the Purple Dragons at Murakami's noodle shop, Mikey sees a bowl of ramen and goes on to taste it, while he does so, he knocks down Sid twice without even looking around.
- In "Pizza face" with all of his brothers and Sensei hypnotized, Mikey has to fight them for real and BEATS them.
- In the IDW Michelangelo special "Dresden heist" Mikey has to deal with diamond thieves and he does so by thinking quickly and use whatever he heard his brothers say as an example on how to deal with the situation he finds himself in.
- In the IDW series, he makes a hard case against Splinter's decision to have the children saved from the Rat King to be trained to be Foot Soldiers and takes on the burden to be their sensei.
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Sensei Mikey.

So is he right, is the greatest fighter of the TMNT Michelangelo?

Yeah, disagree that he's the "greatest"... But I will give it to him that he, as described elsewhere in the past, is probably the most athletically gifted and, while they are all "greatest" in their own right and strengths, Mikey benefits from being rather creative and using that to his benefit in a fight.

Leo, for example, is a great strategist and has a good mind for a good plan (which is hand in hand with being a good problem solver and typically a trait of a creative mind as well), so he's no doubt pretty talented in quickly connecting a string of things and predicting the outcome...buuut, he's probably less likely to consider some options that may be a bit too "out there" for his very logical "by the book" way of thinking. Donnie has to be inherently pretty creative in his own way, too, and may be a little more likely to consider ideas that are a bit more out there like Mikey, but he's so analytical and enough of a thinker that he's likely to over complicate it and get slowed down under pressure. Raph, well, he's obviously the tunnel vision, point A to point B punch now and ask questions later guy... an asset too in some fights when you need an immediate defense and quick response, but not as agile and free styling as Mikey is.

Mikey is the greatest in what he personally does, and likewise for the others.

Mastered Ultra Instinct Mikey!

Endurance
 

No idea, but maybe he has the most endurance.

Probably no surprise here, but yeah, I'm gonna say Mikey IS the "greatest" fighter of the four, as evidenced in some of the episodes above, not to mention other instances like the Battle Nexus, him lasting longer against Shredder one-on-one in the 1990 movie battle, his prowess against Touch and Go, the opening theme scene of using his chucks to bat away the projectiles in the OT series, and many others. One of my personal faves in this regard is how he leads the group out of the theater safely in the 03 Shokonobo ep, based on his knowledge of horror movies and associated tropes, as well as his amazing turn in SAINW. When he focuses, Mikey is INCREDIBLE as both a leader and a fighter, capable of incorporating strengths normally found in his brothers, but in an intuitive way that is uniquely his own. Parasitica is another one, where he not only resisted the wasp s longer than any of the others, but even managed to use what he had observed Donnie using to create the antidote and saved all of them! And there is the OT episode "What is Michelangelo Good For" where he demonstrates abilities similar to both the Parasitica and SAINW stories, in a setting much like "Island of Dr. Morough (sp?)". And there was the Nick ep where he proved to be an expert survivalist in Dimension X, and of course, one of my all-time fave Mikey eps of 03, "The Christmas Aliens"! He saved the toys, took down an entire group of Purple Dragons, and rescued a stray kitten(and kept it safe while doing the above), ALONE. All these instances show that, when the chips are down, or when he is truly motivated, Mikey can be almost unstoppable.

Each Turtle has his own natural gift. Some strand out more than others. Michelangelo is the natural athlete so the fastest and most agile. He also has the most unrealized potential. He rarely shows his full capability that is held back by his need to be goofy and/or lazy. Moments like Michelangelo forced to face Klauh again in the Battle Nexus (2003 cartoon) or successfully standing up to Splinter ( 2nd Michelangelo one-shot, IDW). showcase just how capable of a fighter that he is. Is he the best? No. Raphael is the strongest. Leonardo is the best skilled. Donatello is the most strategic. So each is the best fighter depending on the aspect.

I mean it's been said he's the most natural athlete and the quickest. As well as he'd be one of the best if he took things seriously and didn't goof off.

I prefer him being of equal skill to the other turtles, like in the OT.

That being said however, I do get the impression that he is the most nimble.

The best fighter should be Leonardo, since he's the leader. He should be slightly better than his brothers.

As for Michelangelo, he might be the most athletic and have the best stamina and speed, but that doesn't necessarily make him the best fighter. It's kinda strange since he seems to be the biggest consumer of junk food and soda of his brother. But I guess all of that surfing and skateboarding he does burns those empty calories...

I always hated that idea, being the leader and the strongest/best fighter are two different things and it makes Raph feel useless.

Being the best fighter and strongest are not the same thing though.

Leo is not the physically strongest guy in the bunch, while still being the big brother and the most skilled and most highly trained in what he does because he's very dedicated to it, and personally I like that, it's a good message that he is not the toughest. It also makes sense that the leader is that highly skilled because that goes hand in hand with understanding the big picture and being able to strategize. Clueless leaders are bad ones...

Leo's ability for strategy and quick thinking makes him mentally stronger than Raph in a fight and that can certainly help make or break it, but Raph as the physically strongest is hardly useless. He's basically the quarterback of the team. The brick wall that can tackle the enemy and, alongside the most athletic and distracting youngest brother, help increase their odds as quickly as possible while also giving the more cerebral boys a chance to come up with a game plan for the rest of the fight.

I meant strong in a sense of who is the strongest in fighting or combat.

Being highly skilled and seeing the big picture don't really go hand in hand in fact I personally think "seeing the big picture" requires intuition and creativity also being a leader requires more than being the most skilled, take Young Justice for example Robin is the most skilled out of the members of the team but him being too emotionally immature and having a mentor who is known for fighting alone makes him unfit to lead.


1.There is a difference between commanding a unit vs having a 1 on 1 fight where strategy is while not useless isn't really a deciding factor in fact there is a very good reason as to why the saying "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face" is popular in the world of Martial Arts/Fighting

2. Quarterbacks don't really tackle if anything Leo fits more with the Quarterback position than Raph

It obviously depends on the version of the Turtles. In Mirage, Michelangelo was easily the WORST fighter. Peter Laird has said Leonardo is the best fighter. Not sure what Eastman would say but he's a Raph fangirl and Raph beat Leo in a fight in the Mirage comics so it's arguably Raph.

I also think Mikey was depicted as the worst fighter in the Fred Wolf series, although I think they were close to the same in skill in that series.

Mike has only been depicted as the best in, arguably, the 2003 series (where he had the most "natural talent" and beat the crap out of somebody like 5 times his size) and MAYBE the IDW series, although only because he beat Splinter, who maybe didn't want to win.

Usually the best fighter is Leonardo, or at least I think it should be, overall. Raph can generally best Leo when we see them go against each other, and he probably has the highest pain tolerance and brute strength, but not skill. I also think it was implied in the 1990 movie that Raph is the "best."

Hell, in the Nick series Mike and Don are the "B team", which I really hated, although it seemed Mikey got better at fighting as the series went on.

You have gotta be damn skilled to use nunchaku effectively, though.

The Keeper
 

Don't forget The Keeper in the Archie comics.

In a number of the TMNT Incarnations Mikey seems to be depicted as an Empath. This is rather prominent in more recent versions such as the 2012 incarnation and the IDW.


For people who haven't heard the term, an Empath a person with the paranormal ability to apprehend the mental or emotional state of another individual.

This is kinda what Mikey's ninja senses are in the 2012.

There are various traits such as you are able to absorb and reflect other people's emotions. And yes a number of these traits do sound very familiar with Mikey's character.

Some of the more common empathic traits are.

• You take on other peoples’ emotions as your own
• Sometimes you experience sudden, overwhelming emotions when you’re in public
• The “vibe” of a room matters to you — a lot
• You understand where people are coming from
• People turn to you for advice
• Tragic or violent events on TV can completely incapacitate you
• You can’t contain your love of pets, animals, or babies
• You might feel people’s physical illnesses too — not just their emotions
• You can become overwhelmed in intimate relationships
• You’re a walking lie detector
• You can’t understand why any leader wouldn’t put their teams first
• You have a calming effect on other people — and the power to heal them
• You cannot see someone in pain without wanting to help
• You have huge heart but sometimes give too much

Stuff like this can be fun for a thought exercise, but in the end it always kind of annoys me because it comes down to, "Well, of course my favorite is the best" because that's how people are - including the writers.

The simplest answer of course is, "Whichever character is the favorite of whomever is holding the pen that day, is the 'best' fighter." That's all it would ever really come down to. Just like "Who would win in a fight, Superman or Batman?" or, "Who'd win in a race, Superman or The Flash?" People like to go around in circles about this or that variable or circumstance... on the end, the only variable that matters is, "Whose book is this happening in?" Because it's a pretty safe bet that if it's happening in a Batman comic, then Batman is gonna win, and if a TMNT writer favors Michelangelo, then Michelangelo is going to be "pushed" as being The Best, whether that holds up to scrutiny or makes logistical sense.

I kinda snicker at the idea, myself. As others have said, Mikey is often presented as being outwardly the most lazy, least-motivated, trains the least, and also generally is "the screw up" of the team. So the idea that "magically" underneath it all he's a supreme bad-ass who's just waiting for the right time to express it is... well, kinda silly. He's never even struck me, in any version, as someone who'd care about being "the best fighter"; I think he'd honestly rather win a Street Fighter V tournament than an actual street fighting tournament, just going by general evidence and behavior.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, of course, because it's all just thinking out loud. But it feels like kind of a silly debate because, in the end, whoever the writer likes best is going to be given that particular trait, and that's that. Anything anyone else wants to consider is frankly irrelevant to the conversation, because it isn't real. It's not like there's any way to "prove" who it could be, and anything that happens on the page is equally subject to the bias of the pen-holder du jour, and thus should be taken with a grain or two of salt, as well. Although I might put more stock into what Kevin or Peter had to say about it, if they were asked to give an opinion.

Being as objective as I can be, I truly think that if the "leader" of any team isn't The Best at most things then they have no business being the leader in the first place. When speaking of a team of fighters, one would assume, I would think, that the "leader" would naturally be better than the others or else why is he the leader? It simply doesn't make logical sense for a "subordinate" to have skills that surpass the person who tells them what to do, by my way of thinking. Therefore, IF it were real I would assume that Leo would be the best fighter, but since it's not, I have to accept that whoever is writing the story today is going to "push" their favorite, and that's really where the conversation ends as far as I'm concerned.

Other People write the stories, so in the end, whether you or I think that Leo could beat Mikey in a fight or Superman could beat Flash in a race simply doesn't matter. So it's kinda silly to think about it too hard.

That's like 5–6 years old children talking in the sandpit.

So... you're telling me with a straight face that you've been here for 14 years and can't see ANY similarity between that and the types of things people commonly discuss around here? :lol:

It's literally the exact same thing, and that's kind of my point. A bunch of "grown-ups" having the exact same conversations as kids in the school cafeteria, about things that can never be quantified or measured on account of they're not even real. Engaging in long, drawn-out thesis statements in support of a hypothetical that can never be proven. "My Dad can beat up your Dad", etc. etc.

Just calling it like it is, bruh.

Leo's right. This a site for the fandom to discuss things like this. Saiyaman puts down a fun (and good) argument for Mikey's strengths. But at the end of the day it falls to the writers. I doubt there's any hard rule within the writer's room that ONE turtle is the GOAT and must remain that way at all costs.

And I'm definitely not saying, "Don't have the conversation, don't engage in the thought exercise." That's the entire point of these places. Just saying, it's not something that can ever be given a "right" answer and therefore, don't take it too seriously, is all.

When people write a novel in defense of their position on things like this, it just makes me smirk, that's all. :) Reminds me a little too much of those cafeteria conversations from days gone by. But I guess that's why we're even here.