Aren't the Turtles kinda weak?
 

Y'know, it seems every other mutant animal, either because the animal is already viscous as is, or in Bebop and Rocksteady's case, they were fighters as humans beforehand, but it always seems most mutants are already dangerous powerhouses, other than the Turtles themselves.

There are so many animals that when mutated use their animalistic abilities, like having sharp claws, sharp teeth, in the case of mutant birds, the ability to fly, and so forth. But the Turtles themselves are basically just green humans with shells. I guess the only 'extra powers' they get is their shell can protect them from impact that would normally break an ordinary person's back. Though I guess they'd also be natural born swimmers.

Like for example, Groundchuck and Dirtbag can already mess ish up, hell, Slash, a fellow turtle is a lethal powerhouse... but the Turtles ONLY get by because they were trained in Ninjitsu. Like if the Turtles belonged to some ordinary guy that did not happen to be a ninja master... they'd be weak as all hell.

It just seemed the Turtles had to train for years to learn to fight while someone like Leatherhead was already a threat since day one.

It seems like you're talkning about the Fred Wolf cartoon. In the Fred Wolf cartoon it's really unclear how long they've trained, though mostly because the writing is total garbage. Either Shredder has been sitting on the Technodrome for years or the Turtles trained for a few weeks, pick your poison.

Anyway, pet store turtles aren't exactly known for being especially intimidating creatures. They move really slowly, they are not very flexible, being tipped over is an obstacle unusually hard for them to overcome and their best defense is to awkwardly retract their limbs. There is simply a disadvantage in the combat department from the start.

Compare that to Alligators, Rhinos, Boars, Bulls, Mammoths, Jaguars, Rams, Foxes, Jackals, Sharks, Falcons, Lions, Bears, Wolves, Snakes and whatever else has been shown before. These are much more dangerous creatures just as normal animals, of course they're a more serious threat.

In most TMNT versions, the turtles do possess enhanced strength, endurance, speed, and agility. The concept of second mutations for the turtles that improve their abilities to monstrous levels is rarely explored and I feel like it is a major missed opportunity.

Honestly, I was always curious as to why the turtles are not designed like monsters and are never treated as monsters by other characters. I really liked the concept that Raphael naturally mutates into a more wild monster eventually. Genetically speaking the turtles are closely related to crocodilians which could lead to more ferocious mutations. In addition to their reptilian DNA, their mammalian human DNA is also closely related to chimpanzees which are also vicious beasts. Overall, I think the turtles being "weak" is just a problem with their lore and design not being fully explored for all possibilities.

Edit: Now imagine of all the possibilities when the turtles are viewed as a cross between a wereturtle-crocodile-chimpanzee-teenager, a fearsome sight indeed lmao!

That's why platinum dunes re designed then to make them more threatening by being more like hulk

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...48_-w&usqp=CAU

Tipped over? The Turtles aren't tortoises and tortoises aren't turtles.

To the point, it's easiest to think of the baddest ass Japanese ninja killer assasins you can think of or imagine. Now imagine they have shells that protect their entire backs and plastron that protects their entire torso and midsection. And also imagine they don't super care about humanity. Also, they're pretty short and wiry.

That's the TMNT to me. Anything else is fluff.

No I mean any and all versions. I mean what are the Mirage turtles if they just grew up alone with no ninja training. They're only bad ass martial artists cause of Splinter. Even all the flips and stuff are excersises they were trained in.

Aren't the Turtles kinda weak? Yes, they are, kind of. But they have weapons and are not afraid to use them. They are a bunch of freaks living in the sewers with a giant rat who taught them ninjutsu. What can you expect? Imagine four Bruce Lee with a shell and no mercy. Not so weak after all.
Goku could kill them with a finger but this is no Dragonball and there's nothing wrong about it.

I just refer to the fact that of no weapons, no training. Like I said, if some regular kid raised them, Bruce Lee stuff goes out the window. Like it's just a happy coincidence they just so happen to be raised by a ninja master. The muscles you see them have, they had to work for em, they had to build em. As opposed to someone like Leatherhead or even Slash that are somehow already dangerous without any weapons or any training. They already seem to just 'have' muscles as is.

I mean that might be why we relate to them more than anyone else, their strength lies in how human they are than anything else.

If they were weak, then they wouldn't have all that muscle mass, would they?

They're not weak per se, but the turtles across all incarnations are put against overwhelming odds against which they seem utterly outclassed.

Compared to average regular humans, the turtles are really powerful. They have alot of muscle mass, agile reflexes and shell armor, not to mention ninjitsu.

Part of the charm and relatability that they have to work hard for what they have.

As far as explaining the difference between them and other mutants... The Turtles were mutated a lot earlier than the rest, so it could be reasonable to think that the mutagen might not even be the same formula and possibly enhanced in some ways by the time others were exposed to it?

You also make a good point that many others already had a lot they kept when mutated. The TMNT were just babies though and didn't even get to be regular turtles for that long, so 95% of their growth and development was spent as something else, as humanoid beings with a different posture, different center of gravity, etc and adapted to a different lifestyle than the turtles they otherwise would have been.

That makes sense. I guess also since they grew into a family where most mutants are kinds on their own fending for themselves, they had more time to adapt and be more human.

That's why the origins where Splinter himself was Yoshi mostly make more sense cause he'd be a much more human foundation for their behavior, as opposed to a mutant rat learning how to adapt as well.

Isn't part of the "joke" Turtles as Ninjas in the first place?

Mostly just if you think of the Turtles as a parody, which both Eastman and Laird have implicitly said it is not.

Then someone needs to let the Turtlepedia know...

Yeah, that's dead wrong. I point blank asked both men if it was a parody. Eastman was a solid "no" and Laird was more like, "Parodic elements don't make it a parody, that's a lazy and wrong thing to say about it."

Laird staunchly says that he never intended TMNT to be a parody and Eastman says it kinda is and yet kinda isn't. There is definite elements of parody of that there is no doubt they are overstated and went away fast as the series went on.

I'm definitely with Andrew on this one that bringing up the dubious claim that TMNT was supposed to be a parody is just another way is saying the whole thing from it's inception was supposed to be a joke so the franchise should be as silly as possible. Even though the premise of that argument is false and frankly from the various cartoons and movies you can track how it's success dips as each version becomes sillier and sillier.

As for the question at hand; yes compared to most of their non human antagonists the turtles are physically weaker but I don't see that as a huge problem. Most comic book heroes fight foes that outmatch them it's supposed to be their skill, wits and whatever unique abilities they have that allow them to beat their superior on paper opponents. That's very much what TMNT is all about.

I don't mind the idea that they may be stronger than your average human. It's makes it slightly more believable that they could do things like jump from rooftops but they shouldn't super strong like the Bay movies.

Please note the quotes around "joke" meant to kind of note that joke wasn't used in the strictest of terms.

Turtles as Ninjas is absurd, intentionally so. And even if the series isn't a parody, the choice of Turtles as the titular Ninjas was used specifically for its crazy factor.

The fact that they can overcome the inherent weakness of being a Turtle to be proficient ninjas is baked into absurdity of the premise.

^^^

No doubt but I would argue even with the 'parody' elements the story of that first issue I would strongly argue is meant to be taken seriously.

Imagine that the story was exactly the same save for instead of Saki killing both Yoshi and Shen unbeknownst to Saki Yoshi survives but is seriously wounded. While wandering the streets he comes across four homeless kids and he decides to adopt them and train them in martial arts to avenge Shen.

Suddenly that's a series that no one would debate whether they should take it seriously...of course without the the anthropomorphic animal concept and comic book superhero conceits I highly doubt it would have been a franchise that made a lot of people millionaires or that most of us would be here talking about it.

The Turtles should not be strong.

Most Japanese ninja and samurai were frail and small (like most Asians) and wore armor to protect them or the shade of darkness. The Turtles do not need bulging muscles like 4 Hulk's or super power abilities.

They are like most Asians warriors where they use cunning and skill to overthrow their opponents rather than brute force.